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-   -   Saddam Hussein Executed (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33603101)

arcamalpha2004 01-01-2007 21:02
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34189127)
arcamalpha, I think you are (perhaps unintentionally) putting forward the premise that the Coalition governments have given orders that bombs should be dropped on innocent civilians, and equating that with the execution of Saddam.

You are equating execution with firing weapons in a conflict - comparing apples and frogs. And before anyone says that the troops should endeavour to avoid civilian casualties, I should stress that all troops are given these guidelines, and I am sure that most try to follow them, but not as easy as it sounds when RPG's and bullets are pinging off (and through) your transport (not an excuse, just, perhaps, a reason).

Unfortunately, real life is not like the movies, and when a house with insurgents in it gets destroyed in a firefight/bombed, buildings (and people) around it get damaged/injured/killed too - it's not nice, but the option is to allow insurgents the ability to fire at Coalition and Iraqi forces unopposed. You make it sound as if the order is to injure/kill civilians, and if that is not what you meant, you perhaps need to rephrase the statement "the government cannot justify dropping bombs on innocent people" and "mass killings" (post 332).

I don't think that the American siege of Falluja (estimated civilian deaths 600) was a good thing, but I don't use it to tar the rest of the Coalition forces with the same brush

You mentioned you spent some time in the services - what mob were you in, and did you see "active service"?



How is execution defined?
A bomb is dropped in an area, this results in x amount of people killed, I am sorry, but this cannot be excused with the excuse " we meant to kill the 50 insurgents in that building "
Looking at the above, could it be said that under humanitarian reasons the attack should not have happened?

Yet our government oppose " execution " on humanitarian grounds.
So where are we with this government? they cannot legitimate execution of one group of people yet distance themselves when we have an example of hanging, at the end of the day it is still execution, imo its not apples and frogs, one dead body through hanging is the same as one dead body through a indiscriminate bombing, you see, when the ira were blowing up civilians in ireland our government were on the tv deploring, and rightly so, the indiscriminate killings, but now along with america they see things differently, is that not hypocrisy?
I dont need to disclose where I served during my service, does this influence what I am entitled to say? why ask?
I think I have made my point, over to others ;)

Hugh 01-01-2007 21:20
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004 (Post 34189312)
How is execution defined?
A bomb is dropped in an area, this results in x amount of people killed, I am sorry, but this cannot be excused with the excuse " we meant to kill the 50 insurgents in that building "
Looking at the above, could it be said that under humanitarian reasons the attack should not have happened?
So do you believe that we should not bomb buildings from which Iraqi insurgents are mounting attacks and killing Iraqis and Coalition personnel?


Quote:
Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004 (Post 34189312)
Yet our government oppose " execution " on humanitarian grounds.
So where are we with this government? they cannot legitimate execution of one group of people yet distance themselves when we have an example of hanging, at the end of the day it is still execution, imo its not apples and frogs, one dead body through hanging is the same as one dead body through a indiscriminate bombing, you see, when the ira were blowing up civilians in ireland our government were on the tv deploring, and rightly so, the indiscriminate killings, but now along with america they see things differently, is that not hypocrisy?
I dont need to disclose where I served during my service, does this influence what I am entitled to say? why ask?
I think I have made my point, over to others ;)
I think the big difference we have is that you seem to equate "state execution" as the same as "acts of war", which if you were, in fact, in the regular armed forces for any length of time, is an extremely unusual viewpoint, and a strange moral equivalence.

I did not say you "had to" disclose where you served, I only asked out of curiosity, as most people are proud of their service career, and are willing to discuss it; and yes, I (imho) do believe it influences an answer, as personal experience can vary one's viewpoint. It's my belief if you had seen action, you would have realised that everything isn't nice and neat and tidy when things are whizzing past your head (and I don't mean paintballs or airsoft). I wonder what your last three were?

And the fact you equate the IRA bombing of civilians with Coalition bombing in Iraq means we will never see eye-to-eye on this subject - I believe that the IRA intended to kill civilians as part of a terrorist campaign, whilst the Iraqi casualties are killed by accident during an attack on insurgents (doesn't make it any better for them, but surely motivation has to be involved somewhere for guilt to be attributed). You keep using the emotive phrase "indiscriminate bombing" when there is no evidence to back up that phrase.

Bill C 01-01-2007 21:43
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004 (Post 34189312)
How is execution defined?
Quote:
Definitions of execution on the Web:
putting a condemned person to death
performance: the act of performing; of doing something successfully; using knowledge as distinguished from merely possessing it; "they criticised his performance as mayor"; "experience generally improves performance"
(computer science) the process of carrying out an instruction by a computer
(law) the completion of a legal instrument (such as a contract or deed) by signing it (and perhaps sealing and delivering it) so that it becomes legally binding and enforceable
a routine court order that attempts to enforce the judgment that has been granted to a plaintiff by authorizing a sheriff to carry it out
the act of accomplishing some aim or executing some order; "the agency was created for the implementation of the policy"
murder: unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwnExecution is the act of putting a person to death, with or without judicial process (for cases under judicial process, see capital punishment). Military executions are typically by firing squad (for violations of orders in wartime or the laws of war) or by hanging (typically for cowardice, or commission of atrocities or other crimes).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_(legal)
http://www.google.com/search?num=100...ition&ct=title


Does not mention bombing someone there.

I honestly think that if you had your way you would have us bring our troops home and charge them all with murder, Is that what you think ?

---------- Post added at 21:43 ---------- Previous post was at 21:35 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcamalpha2004 (Post 34189312)
when the ira were blowing up civilians in ireland our government were on the tv deploring, and rightly so, the indiscriminate killings,
That is because they targeted civilian areas , Take my home town of Warrington, They blew up a Mcdonalds on a Saturday afternoon when all the kids were there. There are no solders or military targets there ?. Now that is not what the lads serving in iraq are doing or do you think differently ?

As has been said here, If you have been involved in operations and have been at the sharp end then you WILL know that everything in war is not black and white, Its a nasty horrible business that leaves a mark on anyone involved, If you have had to make that decision as to whether you pull the trigger or not on a 120mm tank gun with real people on the receiving end then you will know its not a decisions made lightly ?. Our troops some of them only 18 " my lad as just returned from 6 months in Afghanistan" have to make that decision everyday and then have to live with it for the rest of there lives.

Maggy 02-01-2007 00:31
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
I'm just about sick of all the nasty sly insinuations that all our troops and servicemen are criminals.

They are in the majority decent hard working people who are doing the job that this country requires them to do.They do not need the backstabbing they are so patently getting from some in this forum.They also do not need all the talk of 'this war' being illegal WHILST they are still trying to keep the peace going.

What a great way to keep their morale up.Very easy for some to be armchair critics in a theoretical manner but as Bill says when you are up to your neck in the blood and guts of the job it's an entirely different view of reality.

I'd rather leave the recriminations about this war until OUR SERVICEMEN HAVE COMPLETED THE JOB AND RETURN HOME.

Bill C 02-01-2007 06:59
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas (Post 34189393)
I'm just about sick of all the nasty sly insinuations that all our troops and servicemen are criminals.

They are in the majority decent hard working people who are doing the job that this country requires them to do.They do not need the backstabbing they are so patently getting from some in this forum.They also do not need all the talk of 'this war' being illegal WHILST they are still trying to keep the peace going.

What a great way to keep their morale up.Very easy for some to be armchair critics in a theoretical manner but as Bill says when you are up to your neck in the blood and guts of the job it's an entirely different view of reality.

I'd rather leave the recriminations about this war until OUR SERVICEMEN HAVE COMPLETED THE JOB AND RETURN HOME.



:clap::clap::clap:

NEONKNIGHT 02-01-2007 12:50
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas (Post 34189393)
I'm just about sick of all the nasty sly insinuations that all our troops and servicemen are criminals.

They are in the majority decent hard working people who are doing the job that this country requires them to do.They do not need the backstabbing they are so patently getting from some in this forum.They also do not need all the talk of 'this war' being illegal WHILST they are still trying to keep the peace going.

What a great way to keep their morale up.Very easy for some to be armchair critics in a theoretical manner but as Bill says when you are up to your neck in the blood and guts of the job it's an entirely different view of reality.

I'd rather leave the recriminations about this war until OUR SERVICEMEN HAVE COMPLETED THE JOB AND RETURN HOME.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Well said. :tu:

etccarmageddon 02-01-2007 15:11
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill C (Post 34189335)
....my lad as just returned from 6 months in Afghanistan....
good.


most of this thread is entertaining but I couldnt give a toss about Saddam - the well being of our troops is more important - the ones working out there in Afghanistan and Iraq.

TheDaddy 02-01-2007 15:32
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognitas (Post 34189393)
I'm just about sick of all the nasty sly insinuations that all our troops and servicemen are criminals.

They are in the majority decent hard working people who are doing the job that this country requires them to do.They do not need the backstabbing they are so patently getting from some in this forum.They also do not need all the talk of 'this war' being illegal WHILST they are still trying to keep the peace going.

What a great way to keep their morale up.Very easy for some to be armchair critics in a theoretical manner but as Bill says when you are up to your neck in the blood and guts of the job it's an entirely different view of reality.

I'd rather leave the recriminations about this war until OUR SERVICEMEN HAVE COMPLETED THE JOB AND RETURN HOME.
Exactly how many service people view Cable Forum then? So far in this thread I have only seen one member post about the conduct of British soldiers and if as I believe they have done nothing wrong and have maintained the best traditions of the British army, they have nothing to worry about, I also believe the vast, vast majority of the British public support the army in all operations, however that doesn't mean you have to support the fact that they are there in the first place, nor let the people that sent them there under strength, under equipped, without international support and with questionable legality, of the hook.

I am not sure Tony Blair would agree with you about waiting for their return either, after all hasn't he been telling us it was time to move on for a couple of years now.

Saaf_laandon_mo 02-01-2007 15:39
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 34189610)
Exactly how many service people view Cable Forum then? So far in this thread I have only seen one member post about the conduct of British soldiers and if as I believe they have done nothing wrong and have maintained the best traditions of the British army, they have nothing to worry about, I also believe the vast, vast majority of the British public support the army in all operations, however that doesn't mean you have to support the fact that they are there in the first place, nor let the people that sent them there under strength, under equipped, without international support and with questionable legality, of the hook.

I am not sure Tony Blair would agree with you about waiting for their return either, after all hasn't he been telling us it was time to move on for a couple of years now.
Exactly, some people seem to think because you dont like the fact that the British Army are in Iraq, you must hate the soldiers on the ground. I for one don't agree with the war in Iraq, but I wouldnt wish that the Brit soldiers there die as a result of their involvement. Likewise I wouldn't say they deserve whatever they get while they're serving there.

I think most critics of the war are anti govt not anti personnel. And by that I mean we're against it based on the reasons for going to war in the first place.

Hugh 02-01-2007 15:50
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo (Post 34189615)
Exactly, people seem to think because you dont like the fact that the British Army are in Iraq, you must hate the soldiers on the ground. I for one don't agree with the war in Iraq, but I wouldnt wish that the Brit soldiers there die as a result of their involvement. Likewise I wouldn't say they deserve whatever they get while they're serving there.

I think most critics of the war are anti govt not anti personnel. And by that I mean we're against it based on the reasons for going to war in the first place.
S_l_m,

may I just suggest a slight edit to your post - instead of "Exactly, people seem to think", may I suggest "Exactly, some people seem to think" ;)

Stuart 02-01-2007 15:53
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 34189610)
Exactly how many service people view Cable Forum then? So far in this thread I have only seen one member post about the conduct of British soldiers and if as I believe they have done nothing wrong and have maintained the best traditions of the British army, they have nothing to worry about, I also believe the vast, vast majority of the British public support the army in all operations, however that doesn't mean you have to support the fact that they are there in the first place, nor let the people that sent them there under strength, under equipped, without international support and with questionable legality, of the hook.

I am not sure Tony Blair would agree with you about waiting for their return either, after all hasn't he been telling us it was time to move on for a couple of years now.
For all you know, there may be a few. I am not saying if any do or don't (regardless of whether I know or not, I am not at liberty to say).

However, if there are any soldiers reading then they probably don't need to be told they are fighting an illegal war. I believe that's what Incog was saying.

Saaf_laandon_mo 02-01-2007 15:57
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34189624)
S_l_m,

may I just suggest a slight edit to your post - instead of "Exactly, people seem to think", may I suggest "Exactly, some people seem to think" ;)
done............. :)

TheDaddy 02-01-2007 16:13
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C (Post 34189628)
For all you know, there may be a few. I am not saying if any do or don't (regardless of whether I know or not, I am not at liberty to say).

However, if there are any soldiers reading then they probably don't need to be told they are fighting an illegal war. I believe that's what Incog was saying.
Even if there are thousands, all they will have seen here really, is support for them and sympathy for the situation they are in and you are right they don't need to be told about the questionable nature of the war, they aren't stupid they already know

Maggy 02-01-2007 17:17
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 34189610)
Exactly how many service people view Cable Forum then? So far in this thread I have only seen one member post about the conduct of British soldiers and if as I believe they have done nothing wrong and have maintained the best traditions of the British army, they have nothing to worry about, I also believe the vast, vast majority of the British public support the army in all operations, however that doesn't mean you have to support the fact that they are there in the first place, nor let the people that sent them there under strength, under equipped, without international support and with questionable legality, of the hook.

I am not sure Tony Blair would agree with you about waiting for their return either, after all hasn't he been telling us it was time to move on for a couple of years now.
You can multiply 1000 times this web site and still not hit the number of forums discussing the same issues with some of the same attitudes and opinions...So it would be quite easy to for a few hundred of our 'lads' to see such opinions all over the net.

I'm all for truth and democracy,however I want to make sure we win the propaganda and morale war as well.At the moment the 'other side' can take heart from the hand wringing that is STILL going on about WMD and the legality of the war and are even more encouraged to take up arms because they see the dissent rather than the total support our servicemen and women deserve..

KN4995 02-01-2007 18:59
Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 
I appreciate this thread has a particular flavour, so apologies for going elsewhere with it and for butting in. I just didn't want to start another thread.

Just been more than a bit disappointed that the administrator of another forum I have been using for the best part of a decade, has made a post with not just the link to the mobile phone footage of Saddam, but an embedded YouTube video - fortunately it's not an autostarter.
Why anyone would want to see that is beyond me?
:( :confused: :td:


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