Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

If the dead cat is giving us all a bit of cash, by all means go for it Bozza ! We're all open to bribery like politicians...

We will of course have to pay back tenfold at a later date but like a good socialist he doesn't care. Survival of Big Dog is everything, I'm sure the opposition will agree too. Unfortunately the parliamentary inquiry will do for him. Sacked yet again for lying....

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

A random person’s table yes, but if the original image has location data, date, time and you can make out the name on the lanyard you could reasonably conclude someone was having a party. That’s an odd seating arrangement for 2 folk as well.

I’m sure people would appreciate help with the cost of living crisis, I’m sure it would have been useful when Rishi did the budget back in March too.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Some very cheap wines there, Bozza should be embarrassed....

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I mean surely even Conservatives don’t find him very Conservative as he throws a few billion on the country credit card to save his own skin?

The “free market” stipulates these folk belong in workhouses working longer hours and undercutting each other’s wages to curb inflation.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

As I said, we got a figure of a headless person who could be absolutely anyone, stood at a table, could have been taken in last half hour at Mirror HQ for all we know.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Just like our PM, the press never lie Mick ;)

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The money was spent on the wallpaper instead. :D

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The Tesco on Whitehall is rubbish though. What's worse is Berry Brothers and Rudd is only a quick cross of St James's Park from No 10. Poor showing all around really.

---------- Post added at 21:24 ---------- Previous post was at 21:20 ----------

The accusation is that it's at No 10, not directly implicating Johnson directly. They claim to have WhatsApp messages and the wider photo presumably shows No 10 staff.

I guess they can hand this over to the police and let them investigate.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Yes, it's not another FPN for Johnson but it does speak to a booze culture at No. 10. And perhaps also suggests, maybe unfairly, that the Met have not been as thorough as they could have been if this boozy gathering was not investigated.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The Met should investigate every officer who stood outside while these pissheads fell out late at night.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Police don’t investigate police, that’s the job of IPCC. ;)

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

You could quite easily confuse No. 10 with an out of control frat house in a cheesy 80's teen movie.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Just don’t hold it against me for six years :D

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Toga Toga Toga :D

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Why would it be? And if it is significant (which I doubt) why wasn’t it handed over before now?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

It's arrived https://news.sky.com/story/partygate...kdown-12619559

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Sky being made to look justifiably stupid by calling that early. :)

That’s the problem with Sky believing what they read on twatter

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

:zzz:

Get a life.

I want to hear what the government is doing to curb rising cost of living. I don’t need to read something that I already know about. Starmer can only say so much too, given he is still under criminal investigation for Beergate.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The birthday party ironically looks tamer than the leaving do photo ITV leaked.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I think Johnson is less triggered by the report than his supporters are.

It's possible to want good governance and for the government to address the cost of living crisis.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

It's not great for him obviously, some bad stuff in there, but not a killer blow. Everything always seems to fall just short of a killer blow to leave him wounded but in place.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

How terrible, photographed in the same room as some sandwiches and pop.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Labour's dream, a wounded PM in place with the next enquiry about misleading Parliament still to come.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

For those interested, the report is here.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...GATHERINGS.pdf

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

That one should be a doddle. He’s over the worst.

So it seems he has either been fined and/or officially criticised for:

1. Attending the birthday event, which the police have decided to call a party and to fine him. I have said from the start that this seems grossly unfair. The event lasted less than 10 minutes between other work activities and all those there met while at work anyway. And that is it from the point of view of the ‘criminality’ allegations, which really does not deserve all the arguments, debates and condemnations that have occurred over the months since the story broke.

2. Sue Gray has determined that there was a lack of senior leadership at No 10, for which the PM has accepted responsibility and is in the process of addressing.

Alll these other comments coming out of the woodwork are from disenchanted people who want to screw Boris, but if there was anything in this, Sue Gray or the police would have picked it up.

As I suspected from the start, this has been much ado about nothing as far as the PM is concerned. However, I do not condone the behaviour of those who were blatantly breaking the rules and carrying on as if it were like 1999.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

If this is your takeaway, you’re either high, or reading something else entirely.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Well at least I’m not obsessed by this trivia. It’s fluff, nothing more. It’s been addressed, it’s ended.

What a disappointment for you guys who wanted rid of Boris.

Now let’s get on with the real issues of the day. The fun is over all but that final vote, and I know which way that will go.

Up next: Starmer’s after work party. Hoist by his own petard!

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

As OB says, there's nothing to see here.

Where I work, we have many work events where people throw up and have a punch up - don't you know it's all part of the team building and bonding experience in the public service.

As for the cleaners and security staff, well they only come to work to be abused and ridiculed, they must do because when you consider the low wages they probably get they surely wouldn't come to earn a living so it must be their superb working conditions that keeps them coming back. In fact, thinking about it, I'm surprised these people don't offer to pay to for the privilege to work in the inner sanctum of government.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

what a riveting read, my glass eye fell asleep, i could recommend this as a cure for insomnia, boza is going nowhere if this all they have against him.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The Good Law Project is threatening legal action over the Met's apparent failure to send a questionnaire to Johnson for three gatherings. It was only after the Good Law Project began judicial review proceedings this January that the Met agreed to investigate at all; previously it had said it didn't investigate events that had taken place in the past!

https://goodlawproject.org/news/the-...fairly-to-all/

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Hopefully, for those that choose to throw money at maugham's* vanity project, they will be more successful than many of his previous judicial review attempts. ;)

* This is the retard that beat a fox to death in his garden whilst wearing his wife's kimono. Then boasted about it on soshul meeja. :rolleyes:

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Putin's got loadsa money to fund these idiots, the EU is giving him billions for blood soaked gas.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Ah, I forgot the third option … you’ve been pushing your own fantasy so hard, for so long, you actually think it’s true. Sad.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

So true…

https://news.sky.com/story/russian-t...0-000-12555719

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...-took-25123091

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/15...tory-donor-evg

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

But despite all those alleged totals. It’s a drop in the ocean to how much the corrupted EU has and still is giving to Russia for its gas.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I’d rather buy Russian gas and stay warm than sell weapons to Saudi Arabia to kill innocent civilians with.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

While we're on the subject of Corruption, the Corrupt Tory Party has only the single master. No, it is not the country and no, it is not the electorate:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTQ4EKtW...jpg&name=small

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Not entirely correct - the EU itself does not pays Russia anything.

Individual countries (including the UK) have paid for and continue to pay Russia for energy - fortunately we were less dependent than many and we're ending our contract for diesel. But I agree that many countries in the EU especially Germany need to end Russian energy use as soon as possible. To their credit, Germany do recognise this but we need to continue to hold them to account.

---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 19:32 ----------

An example of how leopards don't change their spots:

Johnson: "I am humbled and I have learnt a lesson"

A few minutes later

Johnson: "Sir Beer Korma"

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

‘Raises new questions’ Tory MP demands police confirm details of Starmer beergate probe
DURHAM Police need to be transparent over whether a senior Labour politician was consulted in the decision to clear Sir Keir Starmer in the original investigation into beergate when its current inquiries are concluded, a Tory MP has demanded.

focus has turned to whether the Labour leader will be fined for his event last year in the North East. Durham Police initially cleared him of wrongdoing last year at the event on April 30 during an election campaign, but has since reopened the case. This week the force turned down a freedom of information request over whether the force’s Labour Police and Crime Commissioner Joy Allen was consulted during the original investigation.



https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...Smith-sue-gray

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

But it’s totally fine Russia getting its war chest filled to kill innocents in Ukraine. Got it. :rolleyes:

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Johnson fans lectured us to wait until the Sue Gray Report was published. Yet if you bought a paper from a Johnson-supporting tabloid, you might think the report wasn't published today!
https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1653513651

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

:zzz: You still moaning ?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Those aren’t tomorrow’s front pages??

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

You want it to be true so much that, without any evidence to the contrary, you rubbish the police investigation and the Sue Gray report. Your hatred for Boris has clouded your judgement, Chris. That’s what’s sad.

---------- Post added at 23:42 ---------- Previous post was at 23:40 ----------

That’s because partygate has been shown to be a waste of time, Andrew.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I don't get why you still support Johnson, Old Boy. Fellow Conservatives Seph and Chris see how he's brought the Party into disrepute and he's been tanking with the electorate for a long time now.

What will it take for you to cease giving him support? Found guilty of misleading the House?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Now we've had the Sue report, it was always going to morph towards wait for the Standards Committee report and to be honest I'm surprised OB hasn't used it already. I also don't think we're at the end of the story yet, I'd not be surprised if there are plenty more photos out there.

They'll also try hard to kick any discontent towards the long grass tomorrow when the £400 per fuel bill is announced, hoping they can buy the public's forgiveness.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

“Hatred for Boris”.

Defending him at all costs has almost a cult like following without many members.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Wow, what a pathetic remark. Do better FFS

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I accept that this has divided opinion, and that the breaches of the Covid rules should not have happened. But it is the extent of BJ's involvement that is in question here. The police have found that he breached the rules once, in an event which was a very marginal breach of the law, if that, for which he received a fine. He was not fined for anything else.

Some of the other events that went on at no 10 were serious breaches, but BJ was only involved in a small number of these, and in a situation the police did not consider meriting a fine. Leaving presentations, with or without alcohol, were deemed to be legal, as they were clearly work events, but some of these went on to become social events and BJ was not present when that happened.

BJ says he was unaware of those events which were, or became parties, and indeed he wasn't even there when they occurred. The office of Prime Minister is an extremely busy one, and yet some people on this forum seem to think he had so much time on his hands that he should have been aware of everything that was going on in that building, despite the fact that it is a building that is both residential and office accommodation and is used by over 1,000 people. When he discovered what was going on, he took immediate steps to reform the staffing structure to ensure that such a situation did not recur.

As I have said repeatedly, most of the noise over this has been from people who dislike Boris Johnson and want him gone, some of them Conservatives. But those of us who support him staying in office want him to do so because on the issues that are still outstanding and are important to this country, BJ is considered the best person to deal with them, because he knows how to do it and how to make it happen.

That is why, in context, partygate is seen by many as an unwanted distraction and completely out of proportion with the scheme of things.

Many (not all) of those same people try to leap to Sir Kier Starmer's defence, despite the fact that his breach of the rules appears to be far greater than BJ's, because his event happened AFTER work, and not between work events. If that turns out to be true, he will be deserving of the fine that he gets.

---------- Post added at 07:58 ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 ----------

If there are more photos, they should have been forwarded to the police. In any case, the photos alone need to be put into context. I’m sure that if there was anything else of relevance, it would have emerged by now unless people are deliberately suppressing evidence. If more evidence was produced now, people would be rightly accused of wasting police time.

---------- Post added at 08:00 ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 ----------

The cult comprises the people who are part of the campaign to unseat BJ. That is what this is all about.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I think we can do better than dismissing anyone who questions Johnson’s honesty, integrity or capability as having “hatred” for him. The reality he just isn’t very good, and even worse for those on the other side of the fence from me he’s not very conservative.

---------- Post added at 08:07 ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 ----------

An entirely subjective analysis.

And on the other hand if/when he’s cleared it will be demonstrably the case that according evidence held Johnson broke the rules and Starmer did not.

---------- Post added at 08:09 ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 ----------

Do you genuinely believe that, OB? Nobody just wants a better PM? One who isn’t a liar? One who does have attention to detail to understand the agreements he backed? One that doesn’t abandon manifesto commitments when it’s politically expedient? One who won’t max out the country credit card to save his own skin?

People back him because of one policy delivered in a haphazard manner that makes them blind to his many obvious failings. It’s quite tragic really.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Boring. More utter bollocks. The problem is, you’re not adding anything new, you’re just rabbiting on, droning on about Sweet FA. Going on about cults, all the while, you’re in a stupid cult, aligned with the con jobs SNP, all in for Scottish independence. Yawn, yawn & more yawn. :zzz:

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

It’s not bollocks Mick. 20 years ago politics was just people who disagreed about the size/role and purpose of the state. What should we fund and what shouldn’t we.

Now it’s supposedly defined by personality cults based on populist leaders Johnson and Trump.

Scottish independence is the vehicle to escape it. I pity the little Englanders for whom there’s no prospect of escape. Only the erosion of the state and extraction of their wealth to offshore tax havens, while the Daily Mail blames Johnny Foreigner. It’s alright though Rishi will give you £400 back of your own money for the energy companies to take it off you.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I think Chris summarised the real issue our country faces and that is the erosion and re-basing of the moral authority that underwrites our Governance. Whether or not you support the Cult of Johnson and his populist agenda, the journey he is taking us all on is a dangerous one.

By redefining the rules of truth, integrity and accountability, we are being taken to a place where literally anything goes and anything is possible. You may watch his lips move but don't for one second assume that what his says means anything.

I saw this yesterday, sort of summed it up for me:

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The trust in Johnson is eroded and permanently damaged. The partying from No. 10, not just Johnson but his staff and civil servants, means the rules they placed on rest of us, they didn’t believe in.

I too will never forgive what Tories have done to Health care sector. I lived it and continue to do so, it’s bloody horrible and hard work on the front line.

I’m angry but it doesn’t mean, all is forgiven with Labour. I could be politically homeless in the longer term.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The way I see it is, he was democratically elected. I know he's not a president but it was him and his ability to transcend across the regions that helped win the massive majority.

Since then, he's made a few mistakes, he's also pulled off some big wins.

But I do not think it is up to the media or the opposition to topple him, if he is to be removed he should be removed democratically by the people who put him there, if they so wish.

Now, if he is deposed by his own party, then that's a matter for them, but there doesn't seem to be a massive appetite for that either at the moment.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

What you say is totally correct. You are also right to point out that Johnson is just part of the problem, the culture of arrogance at the centre of Government is appalling.

Your point on how the NHS has been deliberately mis-managed is one that everyone should listen to. They rely on the NHS workers' good nature and sense of duty to their fellow citizens while they trash the place, fail to give essential pay rises and blame the NHS staff for their (Central Government) failings. Don't tell me for one minute that they are not setting up the NHS to fail.

Of course with their enablers in MSM, the right wing comics that pump out Pravda-esque misinformation, they will fool enough people enough of the time.

Fun times!

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Spot on. I am pretty sure all those thousands who have perished from Covid their relatives and friends will also think so to.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Absolutely agree. No 10 have taken us all for fools and lowered the trust between the people and their government.

The only way to do rebuild trust is for Johnson to be replaced.

The way they dumped untested patients on care homes and procured poor quality PPE from their friends were two scandals which endangered the lives of run-down NHS staff.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I can't think of a government of any party that i thought i could trust, apart from trust them to make my life worse than it was before they got elected.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

We need a Cynics party.;)

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The issue I take here, is that hundreds if not potentially thousands of people obeyed the laws that were in place at time, meaning they couldn't visit loved ones in care homes or hospitals, in some cases they couldn't say goodbye to loved ones who died in care homes or hospitals.

As with most things in life, it's proportion is defined by the perspective it's viewed from.

Consider this, Had, you been unable to visit a loved one that for example suffered from dementia or for example was in palliative care and subsequently lost their life would you view it as something distracting?

I'll admit, i loathe the floppy haired pillock, but, I'll balance this by saying if Starmer is issued with an FPN he should be out on his backside

We seem to be ok with accepting mediocrity from our politicians

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Compare and contrast:

Meanwhile, in Norfolk

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-61587994

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

What's that plank on about, I was doing 72 hours per week throughout the lockdown because someone deemed me a key worker and was to knackered to let hair down and what's this clowns definition of letting hair down, fighting and puking up in the heart of government, abusing the help trying to clean up the mess and puke

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I've just been reading a really good thread on a side to Partygate that's not been covered yet.
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/statu...39456068067328

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

and I know lots of essential workers where that wasn't the case......

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

https://twitter.com/pippacrerar/stat...5dsmZFo5SR4sUw

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...2&d=1653578044

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

God, how many times are you going to repeat the same old guff?

And it was the NHS Chief who ordered the care home patients out of hospital without checks, not Matt Hancock.When he became aware of Simon Stephens’ circular letter, he withdrew that decision.

There was also a worldwide shortage of PPE, and all efforts were made to procure more through as many routes as possible.

Are you working on the basis that if you keep repeating this stuff, people will start believing it?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

It's not every day Mick and I agree. You should rejoice in this special moment.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Projected the tiresome rebuttaller churning out more old guff than anyone else on the forum has ever

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The postulations aren't the issue the endless sycophantic defence of bozo is, seriously get out more, not even Nadine Dorries is that devoted and that's without pointing out if a politician wants to take the steam out of a scandal the best and easiest thing to say is wait for the report or inquiry and hope everyone loses interest in the meantime

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-61227709

And before you go down the path of "PHE didn’t tell him", here is an article from your newspaper of choice disproving that…

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www....h-court-rules/

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Is Ukraine part of Europe? I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone in Ukraine to condier him to be a laughing stock or National embarassment.

I agree he will have to go but I don't think the time is now.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Yes but it's why I don't think it is the time. He can still be of benefit to Ukraine to push for the supply of the longer range artillery that they are crying out for to go on the offensive.

To me, Ukraine is far more important than partygate.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I don't think the trust will ever be fully rebuilt either. If he has a good few months now the polls will recover a bit and the appetite for him to go will decline within the party but every time his trustworthiness comes up it'll be punching an open wound. He'll never completely shake the image of being a lair.

---------- Post added at 19:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:07 ----------

You don't need Johnson for that though. The whole British political system is pretty much behind our actions in Ukraine and Ben Wallace has been the lead guy on the issue.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Thought you were replying to one of your own posts for a minute there!

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Fair comment, Grim - I would just point out that I have said the same things over and over because so many of Boris’s detractors are on repeat and just keep regurgitating the same points again and again.

I’m calling it a day on this now as I think these people are obsessed and beyond help and certainly beyond reason.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

We managed to change prime minister during ww2 certainly once,
perhaps twice ? and we of course were directly involved in that

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Exactly. Johnson supporters' last stand is to state he's the only person capable of handling the cost of living crisis and in supporting Ukraine.

There's many Conservative MPs capable of doing this whilst also maintaining the trust of the British public through their words and deeds. Johnson has shown in a couple of years he's not one of them.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Yes, he's a man of the people for sure :D

Goes down great in Wales. https://youtu.be/JA1gBGtOlZU

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Interesting analysis HERE regarding Johnson only receiving one fine, by a legal writer for the FT.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Great find and a good theory as to why Johnson was only fined once. I'm sure Johnson's not the only leader of a political party capable of invoking such a reason, especially someone familiar with the law.

I've read some of his takes before, always interesting.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Yes but take into consideration what happened.

As regards Chamberlain. He is best known for his foreign policy of appeasement, and in particular for his signing of the Munich Agreement on 30 September 1938, ceding the German-speaking Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia to Nazi Germany led by Adolf Hitler. Following the German invasion of Poland on 1 September 1939, which marked the beginning of the Second World War, Chamberlain announced the declaration of war on Germany two days later and led the United Kingdom through the first eight months of the war until his resignation as prime minister on 10 May 1940. (the majority of which referred to as the "phoney war")

Winston Churchill was appointed First Lord of the Admiralty on 3 September 1939, the day that the United Kingdom declared war on Nazi Germany. He succeeded Neville Chamberlain as prime minister on 10 May 1940 and held the post until 26 July 1945.

VE day was 8 May 1945.

VJ day was 15 August 1945

So yes, you are correct in 3 Prime Ministers, one for 8 months, one for 5 Years and one for 2 months.

Now consider why 3 Prime Ministers.

First Chaimberain. An appeaser who accomplished nothing, did not stop the war and (it could be argued) gave Hitler the confidence to continue his expansion of his armed forces and go to war against Poland.

So why Chrchill, why him considering Chaimberlain and wanted Lord Palmestom as his successor.being the appeaser that he was Lord Palmestom refused as he knew Paliament would have objected so who was left?

That famous war mongeror Winston Churchill. Even King George wasn't happy in the beginning but that changed eventually.

Winston then lead the country with a coalition Governmentr until Vicctory in Europe was decclared. For some reason that was disbanded (I don't know by whom) and election was called even though our forces were still at war with the Japenese, our forgotten army and agree with them. I've met many over the years.

So, tell me who should Boris should be replaced by who would not be anRussian apologist or appeser? Both Germany (who should know bwtter) and France and indeed some in the US who think agereeing to Russian claims in the Donbas and other areas is the way for peace. It didn't work with Hitler and it won't work with Putin.

---------- Post added at 01:36 ---------- Previous post was at 00:56 ----------

So,as regards Ukraine where sholud we do now? IMHO suppliy them with whatever they need to actually drive Russia out of Ulraine.
Thet are crying out for long range artillery to go on the offensive and I have no doubt they can do it if the equipment was supplied.
I'll leave you with this brilliant analisys. (note she says the ISW has witheld info as well as other strategists).

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Pretty much anyone in the Tory Parliamentary Party? Johnson isn't Churchill. Unless Corbyn makes a surprise defection to the Tories, everyone is on the same page with Ukraine in Britain.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

You make good points... However, you're reasoning comes down to 'who is there that's better than him to replace him' If the Tory party don't have someone who is more competent than the liability that is Bors then that in itself, is a damning indictment as to the state of British politics.

To add balance, I don't believe that the Labour party are any better whatsoever at the moment.

Supplying Ukraine with 'whatever they need' is a dangerous move, I thought that we were only supplying weapons that were classed as defensive.

To shift towards supplying offensive weapons could lead to a further escalation which lead to a full NATO engagement.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Agreed. The UK's support for Ukraine is not dependent on Johnson. I'm not sure the situation in the US, France etc is relevant here.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I wasn't saying Boris is another Churchill. Far from it even though he made sure the UK was in the lead in Europe for support for Ukraine.

It is not long ago posts were made here about money from Russians to the Conservative Party and some MP's sort of saying it would give Russia influence over policy. Well Boris has shown that to be untrue.

Personally I don't think in normal times Boris should stay but as these are not normal times it is not a time for leadership change, nor would it be whoever was leader unless we had a Russian apologist in power. (there's plenty of those in the Labour party).

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I don't think it makes too much difference. The way our Government is set-up means it's not too dramatic for the Prime Minister to change and I can't see it having a big impact on Ukraine.

As I said Ben Wallace, the Defence Minister, has been the main guy when it comes to Ukraine to the point he has been working for years on arming them. Since there isn't much debate or contention in the U.K on our support for Ukraine I think it'll just tick on merrily in the background. Any additional funding required would be provided without a PM having to work to get it. You mention the Labour Party but even there Starmer has said he would kick anyone out of the PLP who tries to use this to blame NATO.

I think the cost of living crisis is a bigger argument as to why the Government can't have a leadership challenge. That's an issue that is more contentious and requires political direction.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I'm not sure there ever is a normal time. The only genuine Russian apologists in the UK I've heard are not in mainstream parties eg George Galloway.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Thatcher resigned during Operation Granby (Gulf War 1), when we actually had troops and aircraft in the Gulf.

https://www.forces.net/news/gulf-war...flict-30-years

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I think this wins the thread …

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Man facing breaches of Ministerial Code changes rules about people who breach Ministerial Code....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...droidApp_Other