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-   -   Britain outside the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709659)

papa smurf 11-09-2021 15:15
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092679)
Right, so we can agree that this applies to all non EU countries, we’re not being ‘picked on’ by the ‘perfidious EU’ or other such nonsense. This is just one of the consequences that has to be dealt with. Fab
who's this "we"

mrmistoffelees 11-09-2021 15:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36092681)
who's this "we"

Sorry, are you saying the rules are different for separate non eu countries ?

papa smurf 11-09-2021 15:18
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092682)
Sorry, are you saying the rules are different for separate non eu countries ?
I'm asking who agreed with you

mrmistoffelees 11-09-2021 15:30
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36092683)
I'm asking who agreed with you
I believe Chris did

Are you disagreeing ?

Sephiroth 11-09-2021 16:56
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092679)
Right, so we can agree that this applies to all non EU countries, we’re not being ‘picked on’ by the ‘perfidious EU’ or other such nonsense. This is just one of the consequences that has to be dealt with. Fab
You don’t half spout a load of tosh. You have completely ignored the unique circumstances of the NI/GB situation which does not apply to any other third country.

Btw, which other non-EU countries export sandwiches to the EU?

Chris 11-09-2021 17:07
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092684)
I believe Chris did

Are you disagreeing ?
I did; we call it the ‘Single Market’ but actually in world terms it ought to be known as the ‘protectionist market’. The rules that enforce so-called harmonisation of standards across member states also function to make it difficult for non members to sell into it. The difficulties that will arise in the movement of goods between GB and NI will be much the same as those between any other pair of territories where one is inside the single market and the other is not.

This, of course, is the reason Boris believes in the long term those arrangements can’t and won’t stand, because they create two very different regulatory systems within one nation state.

mrmistoffelees 11-09-2021 18:46
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092687)
You don’t half spout a load of tosh. You have completely ignored the unique circumstances of the NI/GB situation which does not apply to any other third country.

Btw, which other non-EU countries export sandwiches to the EU?

Well, I’m not as you can per chris’s reply, he agrees.

Perhaps other countries don’t export sandwiches to the EU because of the requirements? Or are you yet again advocating again that we should receive different treatment to other non eu countries because <insert random nonsense reason here>

We’re no different to any other non EU country & I find it perplexing that now Brexit has been ‘done’ with numerous brexiteers telling remainers to accept the situation some brexiteers are now throwing their rattles out the pram.

You wanted Brexit, you got Brexit, stop the whinging and the childish bleating.

OLD BOY 11-09-2021 19:50
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092699)
Well, I’m not as you can per chris’s reply, he agrees.

Perhaps other countries don’t export sandwiches to the EU because of the requirements? Or are you yet again advocating again that we should receive different treatment to other non eu countries because <insert random nonsense reason here>

We’re no different to any other non EU country & I find it perplexing that now Brexit has been ‘done’ with numerous brexiteers telling remainers to accept the situation some brexiteers are now throwing their rattles out the pram.

You wanted Brexit, you got Brexit, stop the whinging and the childish bleating.
What I find perplexing is why you always side with the EU, despite their actions clearly being against the UK's interests.

Sephiroth 11-09-2021 20:06
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
@MrM

Your head must be stuck somewhere other than in the sand.

You say the UK is no different from any other non-EU country. What drivel that is. You still doggedly ignore the unique NI/GB situation.

You should be rooting for the EU to interpret their rules in a pragmatic way that does not bring unrest to NI, which is about to happen.

I know what you’re going to say next.


Chris 11-09-2021 20:13
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092699)
Well, I’m not as you can per chris’s reply, he agrees.

Perhaps other countries don’t export sandwiches to the EU because of the requirements? Or are you yet again advocating again that we should receive different treatment to other non eu countries because <insert random nonsense reason here>

We’re no different to any other non EU country & I find it perplexing that now Brexit has been ‘done’ with numerous brexiteers telling remainers to accept the situation some brexiteers are now throwing their rattles out the pram.

You wanted Brexit, you got Brexit, stop the whinging and the childish bleating.
I agree that the EU is treating the single market border between GB and NI the same as it would any other. It’s plainly daft however to claim there’s no basis for expecting different arrangements to apply to GB-NI. This is an internal issue for a sovereign independent state. The present solution ignores the sanctity of national sovereignty (which is of only incidental importance to the European Commission) in favour of the sanctity of the single market (which is of overriding importance to the European Commission).

Like it or not, the government strategy has clearly been designed to accept that situation only as long as required to actually get a deal signed, then undermine it on the calculation that nobody in the EU will really want to bring the whole treaty down over Northern Ireland.

mrmistoffelees 11-09-2021 20:25
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092705)
What I find perplexing is why you always side with the EU, despite their actions clearly being against the UK's interests.

This was an entirely foreseeable consequence which iirc was discussed to the deaths, around the time of the referendum. It was summarily dismissed by many a Brexiteer as ‘project fear’

Don’t bring the jingoistic nationalism, it doesn’t wash.

---------- Post added at 19:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36092711)
I agree that the EU is treating the single market border between GB and NI the same as it would any other. It’s plainly daft however to claim there’s no basis for expecting different arrangements to apply to GB-NI. This is an internal issue for a sovereign independent state. The present solution ignores the sanctity of national sovereignty (which is of only incidental importance to the European Commission) in favour of the sanctity of the single market (which is of overriding importance to the European Commission).

Like it or not, the government strategy has clearly been designed to accept that situation only as long as required to actually get a deal signed, then undermine it on the calculation that nobody in the EU will really want to bring the whole treaty down over Northern Ireland.

Which leads us back inevitably to the point that the U.K. agreed to this… it we were to break the treaties etc then it will cause many a country to raise an eyebrow

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092710)
@MrM

Your head must be stuck somewhere other than in the sand.

You say the UK is no different from any other non-EU country. What drivel that is. You still doggedly ignore the unique NI/GB situation.

You should be rooting for the EU to interpret their rules in a pragmatic way that does not bring unrest to NI, which is about to happen.

I know what you’re going to say next.

I’m advocating that the U.K. government upholds and implements the legally binding treaties it agreed too.

We’re Great Britain, remember ? We don’t need the EU’s help, remember ?

OLD BOY 11-09-2021 20:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092712)
This was an entirely foreseeable consequence which iirc was discussed to the deaths, around the time of the referendum. It was summarily dismissed by many a Brexiteer as ‘project fear’

Don’t bring the jingoistic nationalism, it doesn’t wash.

---------- Post added at 19:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:21 ----------




Which leads us back inevitably to the point that the U.K. agreed to this… it we were to break the treaties etc then it will cause many a country to raise an eyebrow

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:22 ----------



I’m advocating that the U.K. government upholds and implements the legally binding treaties it agreed too.

We’re Great Britain, remember ? We don’t need the EU’s help, remember ?
You are missing the point. We agreed to the words. I am questioning the interpretation. And you continue to side with those who are intent on damaging us.

What is this? Hatred of this country or self-flagellation?

mrmistoffelees 11-09-2021 20:37
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092716)
You are missing the point. We agreed to the words. I am questioning the interpretation. And you continue to side with those who are intent on damaging us.

What is this? Hatred of this country or self-flagellation?
You can question whatever you want…. The point is we negotiated and agreed to a deal, we didn’t have to, did we ?

so, because I disagree with what the government is doing I hate the country?? What’s next ? Going to accuse me of being a terrorist perhaps ?

OLD BOY 11-09-2021 20:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092717)
You can question whatever you want…. The point is we negotiated and agreed to a deal, we didn’t have to, did we ?

so, because I disagree with what the government is doing I hate the country?? What’s next ? Going to accuse me of being a terrorist perhaps ?
You didn’t address the fact that I was not questioning the agreement. I was questioning the interpretation of that agreement. To wit, the sandwich example above.

It’s actually the consistency of your arguments that is the key here. You are certainly batting for the other side, and you are not the only one.

I didn’t call you a terrorist. However, if we are ever invaded by a foreign power, don’t expect me to support your application to join the resistance. You are too conflicted for my liking.

Chris 11-09-2021 20:46
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092712)
Which leads us back inevitably to the point that the U.K. agreed to this… it we were to break the treaties etc then it will cause many a country to raise an eyebrow
True, but again I think there has clearly been a calculation made here, namely that these will be acknowledged internationally as exceptional circumstances and not likely to affect our approach in general to international treaties.

mrmistoffelees 11-09-2021 21:01
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092720)
You didn’t address the fact that I was not questioning the agreement. I was questioning the interpretation of that agreement. To wit, the sandwich example above.

It’s actually the consistency of your arguments that is the key here. You are certainly batting for the other side, and you are not the only one.

I didn’t call you a terrorist. However, if we are ever invaded by a foreign power, don’t expect me to support your application to join the resistance. You are too conflicted for my liking.
As per Hugh’s post earlier, ‘questioning the agreement’ is just a wishy washy way of trying to get out of implicating what was was legally agreed. As per all of my previous posts, now Brexit has been done I’d like it to be a success but that success should not come at the cost of sidestepping our agreements.

I’m not conflicted at all, I expect us to do what we’ve agreed to do. That’s all.

And, if not supporting the government was evidence of hatred towards the government. You, my old mucka, would be in the tower. What with some of your criticisms regarding their handling of covid

---------- Post added at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36092721)
True, but again I think there has clearly been a calculation made here, namely that these will be acknowledged internationally as exceptional circumstances and not likely to affect our approach in general to international treaties.

That’s potentially true, however, my concern is that should the gfa be broken and a hard border returns on Ireland. Regarldess of who implements said border the U.K. would be held culpable by nations especially the US. It’s going to come down to who do the US care for more of in terms with trading the U.K. or the EU

Hugh 11-09-2021 21:06
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092720)
You didn’t address the fact that I was not questioning the agreement. I was questioning the interpretation of that agreement. To wit, the sandwich example above.

It’s actually the consistency of your arguments that is the key here. You are certainly batting for the other side, and you are not the only one.

I didn’t call you a terrorist. However, if we are ever invaded by a foreign power, don’t expect me to support your application to join the resistance. You are too conflicted for my liking.
So, because he’s doing what you did with previous administrations (disagreeing with what they are doing with regards their relationship with Europe), you are stating that anyone who doesn’t agree with you, is akin to a Quisling?

People who disagree with you are not "batting for the other side", they are disagreeing with the way our current government is behaving on treaties and agreements, where the issues were previously pointed out before the treaties and agreements were signed, and now those forecast issues are actually happening, they’re being stigmatised as disloyal.

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”

No one cast aspersions on your patriotism or loyalty to the country when you disagreed with the Government of the day - for you to do so to others shows the paucity of your arguments.

btw - yeh, like you would be in the resistance, and would be a referee for others’ suitablity - what skills would you bring to the party? The ability to forecast 14 years in the future? ;)

Sephiroth 11-09-2021 22:58
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
To remind the likes of MrM:

1. By a narrow but distinct majority, the UK voted to leave the UK.

2. The Leave campaign made stupid claims; the Remain campaign tried to instil fear.

3. The public's vote was clearly made on their own behalf and, in the Leave case, not on the campaign.

4. The UK PM, Theresa May was a Remainer who became obsessed with the GFA. She was also very weak, allowing the EU to dictate how the negotiations were to be conducted.

5. She negotiated the Withdrawal Agreement which included the NI Protocol. This negotiation was imposed on Boris Johnson.

6. Boris and his Cabinet needed to balance a number of factors, in no particular order:
- Deal or no deal?
- What would his cabinet support?
- What would Parliament support?
- What would meaningful public reaction be?

7. The Guvmin eventually decided to do a deal based on Frost's negotiations. Ignoring Boris' hyperbole, the deal comprised 2 principal elements:
- A tariff-free deal
- The inherited NI Protocol and all the issues we now see

8. This brings us to where we are now.

It has been mooted, in one form or another, by at least two distinguished members that the Guvmin took the view that if it worked well, then all is good and if not, then either the NI Protocol could be renegotiated or it could be ditched - the latter being a very fraught option. I support what has been mooted.

There are at least two Remainers who drone on about the UK having to meet its international obligations. One of them goes so far as to more or less say that we made our bed in the Referendum and now we're having to lie in it. However events will unfold in NI. Such as:

- The NI Executive will fold as threatened by the DUP - a highly ardent lot
- There may or not be civil unrest in NI but it will not be good there
- A return to direct rule might happen - that at least, if wisely executed, might help
- For reasons given by Chris, the EC won't budge on 3 customs forms per sandwich
- New elections in NI could go either way!

The whole thing is a total mess. The Guvmin must firmly, publicly and sincerely lay it on the line to the EU that the NI Protocol and associated customs rules must be adjusted to fit the UK's sovereign status, of which NI is a part.

Btw, one interim solution is to extend the grace period to 4 years (won't happen) so that Stormont can take the vote that's in the agreement allowing them to confirm or reject the NI Protocol.

I've tried to keep this rational factual and reasonably impartial - except:

MrM's hysterics are "I told you so" sound bites of no value that contribute nothing to solving the problem.

mrmistoffelees 11-09-2021 23:12
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092736)
To remind the likes of MrM:

1. By a narrow but distinct majority, the UK voted to leave the UK.

2. The Leave campaign made stupid claims; the Remain campaign tried to instil fear.

3. The public's vote was clearly made on their own behalf and, in the Leave case, not on the campaign.

4. The UK PM, Theresa May was a Remainer who became obsessed with the GFA. She was also very weak, allowing the EU to dictate how the negotiations were to be conducted.

5. She negotiated the Withdrawal Agreement which included the NI Protocol. This negotiation was imposed on Boris Johnson.

6. Boris and his Cabinet needed to balance a number of factors, in no particular order:
- Deal or no deal?
- What would his cabinet support?
- What would Parliament support?
- What would meaningful public reaction be?

7. The Guvmin eventually decided to do a deal based on Frost's negotiations. Ignoring Boris' hyperbole, the deal comprised 2 principal elements:
- A tariff-free deal
- The inherited NI Protocol and all the issues we now see

8. This brings us to where we are now.

It has been mooted, in one form or another, by at least two distinguished members that the Guvmin took the view that if it worked well, then all is good and if not, then either the NI Protocol could be renegotiated or it could be ditched - the latter being a very fraught option. I support what has been mooted.

There are at least two Remainers who drone on about the UK having to meet its international obligations. One of them goes so far as to more or less say that we made our bed in the Referendum and now we're having to lie in it. However events will unfold in NI. Such as:

- The NI Executive will fold as threatened by the DUP - a highly ardent lot
- There may or not be civil unrest in NI but it will not be good there
- A return to direct rule might happen - that at least, if wisely executed, might help
- For reasons given by Chris, the EC won't budge on 3 customs forms per sandwich
- New elections in NI could go either way!

The whole thing is a total mess. The Guvmin must firmly, publicly and sincerely lay it on the line to the EU that the NI Protocol and associated customs rules must be adjusted to fit the UK's sovereign status, of which NI is a part.

Btw, one interim solution is to extend the grace period to 4 years (won't happen) so that Stormont can take the vote that's in the agreement allowing them to confirm or reject the NI Protocol.

I've tried to keep this rational factual and reasonably impartial - except:

MrM's hysterics are "I told you so" sound bites of no value that contribute nothing to solving the problem.
This is Brexit, this is what you voted for. Boris didn’t have to accept the deal (or did he)

Stop whinging you little crybaby

PS absolutely no hysterics here
PPS would you like me to clean your dummy for you?

Hugh 11-09-2021 23:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Everyone calm down, take deep breaths, and step away from the keyboard until you can post civilly without personal attacks.

OLD BOY 12-09-2021 00:27
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092737)
This is Brexit, this is what you voted for. Boris didn’t have to accept the deal (or did he)

Stop whinging you little crybaby

PS absolutely no hysterics here
PPS would you like me to clean your dummy for you?
It’s what the majority of the electorate voted for. You are clearly in the minority here, and you appear to be a very bitter man.

As I said before, it’s about the interpretation of these agreements that is in question.

---------- Post added at 23:27 ---------- Previous post was at 23:24 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092726)
So, because he’s doing what you did with previous administrations (disagreeing with what they are doing with regards their relationship with Europe), you are stating that anyone who doesn’t agree with you, is akin to a Quisling?

People who disagree with you are not "batting for the other side", they are disagreeing with the way our current government is behaving on treaties and agreements, where the issues were previously pointed out before the treaties and agreements were signed, and now those forecast issues are actually happening, they’re being stigmatised as disloyal.

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”

No one cast aspersions on your patriotism or loyalty to the country when you disagreed with the Government of the day - for you to do so to others shows the paucity of your arguments.

btw - yeh, like you would be in the resistance, and would be a referee for others’ suitablity - what skills would you bring to the party? The ability to forecast 14 years in the future? ;)
My HR skills might help.

I think it is pretty obvious which side some of you on this forum are on. We can all see that.

Hugh 12-09-2021 00:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
"Some of you"…

First rule of anti-democracy people - vilify and depersonalise those who disagree with your views, brand them the "enemy" and "traitors", rather than just people who disagree with you.

Is this what you do at work with your "HR skills"?

OLD BOY 12-09-2021 02:30
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092748)
"Some of you"…

First rule of anti-democracy people - vilify and depersonalise those who disagree with your views, brand them the "enemy" and "traitors", rather than just people who disagree with you.

Is this what you do at work with your "HR skills"?
What a strange post. It’s not me who’s questioning the decision of the British people.

I’m not actually sure what you mean by ‘democratic’, Hugh.

If we were unfortunate enough to experience another war, we’d soon see who the enemy and the traitors were.

I have a pretty good idea…

TheDaddy 12-09-2021 04:03
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092762)
What a strange post. It’s not me who’s questioning the decision of the British people.

I’m not actually sure what you mean by ‘democratic’, Hugh.

If we were unfortunate enough to experience another war, we’d soon see who the enemy and the traitors were.

I have a pretty good idea…
No you don't, as usual you have no idea, fancy insinuating someone with years of military service is a traitor or the enemy and democracy isn't just about a vote, for it to be a healthy democracy it should be fine for people to disagree with national policy without being vilified for it

mrmistoffelees 12-09-2021 08:55
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092762)
What a strange post. It’s not me who’s questioning the decision of the British people.

I’m not actually sure what you mean by ‘democratic’, Hugh.

If we were unfortunate enough to experience another war, we’d soon see who the enemy and the traitors were.

I have a pretty good idea…
I’m not questioning the decision of the British people at all, Brexit was ‘done’ I’m questioning those brexiteers who are now unhappy/disappointed/angry with the Brexit that has been delivered. After all, these people as Brexiteers knew what they were voting for.

Btw with your consistent use of terms such as enemy and traitors perhaps you could consider a name change to ‘Old Proud Boy’

Hugh 12-09-2021 10:32
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092762)
What a strange post. It’s not me who’s questioning the decision of the British people.

I’m not actually sure what you mean by ‘democratic’, Hugh.

If we were unfortunate enough to experience another war, we’d soon see who the enemy and the traitors were.

I have a pretty good idea…
https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...6&d=1631435151

Got to love the chairborne warriors - so brave, yet so lacking in experience of the military.

Once again, you use anti-democratic language, traducing those who disagree with you as "traitors" and "the enemy".

Jaymoss 12-09-2021 10:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092736)


MrM's hysterics are "I told you so" sound bites of no value that contribute nothing to solving the problem.
TBH nothing posted on this forum is going to do anything towards solving the problem

papa smurf 12-09-2021 10:46
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092772)
https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...6&d=1631435151

Got to love the chairborne warriors - so brave, yet so lacking in experience of the military.

Once again, you use anti-democratic language, traducing those who disagree with you as "traitors" and "the enemy".
What colour clip board did you have old chap?

Maggy 12-09-2021 10:55
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
How about we all move on? We are out of the EU so what's next?

Carth 12-09-2021 12:38
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36092777)
How about we all move on? We are out of the EU so what's next?
I tend to agree :tu:

However, what's next will probably be arguements about strange stuff like UK eggs needing to be painted blue for export, or a national shortage of ring pulls on coke cans, and the absolute disgrace that the rich and famous have to open the doors themselves at the top hotels because all the experienced doormen are now doing HGV training . . or something ;)

Hugh 14-09-2021 11:00
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
https://questions-statements.parliam...-09-14/hcws285

Quote:
Border Controls
Statement made on 14 September 2021

The Government initially announced a timetable for the introduction of the final stages of those controls on 11 March. The Government’s own preparations, in terms of systems, infrastructure and resourcing, remain on track to meet that timetable.

However, the pandemic has had longer-lasting impacts on businesses, both in the UK and in the European Union, than many observers expected in March. There are also pressures on global supply chains, caused by a wide range of factors including the pandemic and the increased costs of global freight transport. These pressures are being especially felt in the agrifood sector.

In these circumstances, the Government has decided to delay further some elements of the new controls, especially those relating to Sanitary and Phytosanitary goods. Accordingly:

- The requirement for pre-notification of agri-food imports will be introduced on 1 January 2022 as opposed to 1 October 2021.
- The new requirements for Export Health Certificates, which were due to be introduced on 1 October 2021, will now be introduced on 1 July 2022.
- Phytosanitary Certificates and physical checks on SPS goods at Border Control Posts, due to be introduced on 1 January 2022, will now be introduced on 1 July 2022.
- The requirement for Safety and Security declarations on imports will be introduced as of 1 July 2022 as opposed to 1 January 2022.

The timetable for the removal of the current easements in relation to full customs controls and the introduction of customs checks remains unchanged from the planned 1 January 2022.

1andrew1 14-09-2021 11:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092961)
Good news for Taf - he's likely to get his food parcels from France as quickly as he does now, for a while yet.

1andrew1 14-09-2021 15:12
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
It's also good news for our EU friends.

“It’s ironic,” said one EU diplomat. “They talked about taking back control, but they are letting products into Britain without any controls at all. That’s fine with us.”

“Worse, it actually helps the UK’s competitors. The asymmetric nature of border controls facing exports and imports distorts the market and places many UK producers at a competitive disadvantage with EU producers.” Food & Drink Federation's Chief Executive Ian Wright.

https://www.ft.com/content/e32dda1b-...2-3d80604df431

Carth 14-09-2021 15:16
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Thought you'd be happy at still getting your French cheeses and Italian wines without interruption ;)

1andrew1 14-09-2021 15:27
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36092987)
Thought you'd be happy at still getting your French cheeses and Italian wines without interruption ;)
A decent pint or two of ale and a chunk of Stilton is more up my street. It's Taf who will get his French goodies without hold-ups for a little while longer.

papa smurf 14-09-2021 15:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092991)
A decent pint or two of ale and a chunk of Stilton is more up my street.
It has to be Danish blue for me, i'm not keen on that foreign muck;)

---------- Post added at 14:33 ---------- Previous post was at 14:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092991)
A decent pint or two of ale and a chunk of Stilton is more up my street. It's Taf who will get his French goodies without hold-ups for a little while longer.
If he gets it loaded onto a dingy in France, border force will deliver it to a 4* hotel of his choice;)

Carth 14-09-2021 15:36
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36092993)

If he gets it loaded onto a dingy in France, border force will deliver it to a 4* hotel of his choice;)
LMAO so so true :D

Sephiroth 14-09-2021 16:35
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092985)
It's also good news for our EU friends.

“It’s ironic,” said one EU diplomat. “They talked about taking back control, but they are letting products into Britain without any controls at all. That’s fine with us.”

“Worse, it actually helps the UK’s competitors. The asymmetric nature of border controls facing exports and imports distorts the market and places many UK producers at a competitive disadvantage with EU producers.” Food & Drink Federation's Chief Executive Ian Wright.

https://www.ft.com/content/e32dda1b-...2-3d80604df431
Grrrrr.

mrmistoffelees 14-09-2021 16:37
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093011)
Grrrrr.

If that irritates you, I bet you need a new tv if you watched last night of the proms

Sephiroth 14-09-2021 16:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093013)
If that irritates you, I bet you need a new tv if you watched last night of the proms
You'd lose your bet.

mrmistoffelees 14-09-2021 16:41
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093015)
You'd lose your bet.
That’s nice to hear ;)

Sephiroth 14-09-2021 16:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093016)
That’s nice to hear ;)
Well, I'm not a rabid hater of Europe and its people. Just the following political hates:

1. The EC
2. Varadkar
3. Macron

1andrew1 14-09-2021 16:56
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093015)
You'd lose your bet.
You were watching the tennis instead? :D

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:56 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093018)
Well, I'm not a rabid hater of Europe and its people. Just the following political hates:

1. The EC
2. Varadkar
3. Macron
I agree with you on No. 3.

Sephiroth 14-09-2021 17:27
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36093023)
You were watching the tennis instead? :D

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:56 ----------


I agree with you on No. 3.
The tennis was brilliant, though I was flicking between that and Sky Arts.

Btw, I'm off to Vienna in a couple of weeks. Backhaendl and Tafelspitz.

1andrew1 16-09-2021 15:52
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093027)
The tennis was brilliant, though I was flicking between that and Sky Arts.

Btw, I'm off to Vienna in a couple of weeks. Backhaendl and Tafelspitz.
Enjoy. :)

Sephiroth 16-09-2021 17:16
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
This article in today's Grauniad is worthy of reproduction. It is headlined:

Quote:
In Germany’s election, the fate of the EU is at stake
Quote:
In Brussels last week, I found everyone waiting for Berlin. In Berlin, I found everyone electrified by an unexpectedly wide-open election. One thing, however, is clear: the new German government will be a coalition, and almost certainly of three, rather than two, parties.

That points to the deepest question underlying this pivotal European event: can democracy deliver? More precisely: can the European model of change through democratic consensus, of which Germany is a prime example, produce the actions Europe badly needs if it is to hold its own in the 21st century?

The European Union is like a giant slot machine. The more pineapples, or oranges, line up on the screen, the better the results. The German election will account for about four fruits in a row; France’s presidential election next spring will spin another three. Italy and Spain contribute perhaps two each, with the rest being generated by other European countries and the European institutions.

Whatever the EU’s own treaties say, in practice the alignment of national governments remains the key to any major initiative it takes. My friends in Brussels constantly talk about “the Germans” pushing this or “the French” pushing that. Most European commissioners retain a national tint. Even the big transcontinental party groupings in the European parliament are significantly influenced by national parties from the largest member states. To make the union work well requires a coalition of coalitions made up of coalitions.

Critics constantly talk about a “democratic deficit” within the EU but in reality almost the opposite is true. The system is so complicated and slow-moving precisely because it requires the consent of 26 democratically elected governments plus Hungary, as well as a democratically elected European parliament and sometimes also sub-national states and regions. The EU is a permanent negotiation. The wonder is not that it moves slowly but that it moves at all.

A crisis can help. Without the Covid pandemic, we would not have the €750bn (£640bn) of grants and loans, drawing on shared European debt, in the recovery fund known as Next Generation EU. A giant poster on the side of the European Commission’s Berlaymont building in Brussels shows a joyfully leaping young European, with the words Next Gen EU splashed across one shin; but really a spiky virus should be up there in lights as well. An optimist would say that floods in north-western Europe and forest fires in Greece have made Europe wake up to the climate crisis. Yet it’s an odd polity that relies on successive crises for its survival.

In the capital of Germany, Europe’s central power, the talk is all about the different possible coalitions that might emerge from what will probably be months of talks between parties following the federal election on 26 September. Wits remark that, long after all the obituaries on her 16 years in power have been published, (acting) chancellor Angela Merkel may yet deliver the 2022 New Year’s address, wearing another of her colourful jackets.

Talking of colours, the two most likely coalitions are described as “Jamaica” (the colours of the island’s flag: black for Christian Democrats, yellow for Free Democrats, and the Greens) or “traffic light” (substitute Social Democrats’ red for Christian Democrats’ black). Both coalitions would be firmly pro-European. An analysis of party manifestos shows that the Greens and Free Democrats have the most pro-integration, federalist visions for Europe, although with important differences between them. Armin Laschet, the Christian Democrat candidate for chancellor, is a classic West German West European, with a statue of Charlemagne in his office. (His brother claims the family is actually descended from Charlemagne.) There is no doubting his personal European commitment.

On balance, though, it seems to me that the traffic-light coalition would be the one most likely to produce the green light for Europe. Last Sunday’s television debate between the candidates for chancellor apparently reinforced the view of a plurality of Germans that the Social Democrats’ Olaf Scholz – the solid, steady and experienced finance minister and deputy chancellor – is the one best qualified to succeed Merkel. I tend to agree with them.

All the parties in the two likeliest coalitions seem finally to have grasped the urgency of addressing climate change and, in their different ways, are determined to work with the mighty German business sector to organise the necessary economic transformation. The devil is in the detail, but this will undoubtedly reinforce the EU’s own green initiatives, led by commission vice-president Frans Timmermans.

Where the traffic-light coalition scores over Jamaica is on the eurozone. Either of these three-party coalitions would almost certainly have a hardline German finance minister in Christian Lindner of the Free Democrats. (He once told me “there is only one ministry in Berlin”, meaning the finance ministry.) But a Chancellor Scholz would be more likely than the fiscally conservative Christian Democrats to show the pragmatic flexibility that will be needed not merely to prevent the eurozone from collapsing – any likely German government would do that – but to make it work better for the long-suffering economies of southern Europe.

Nonetheless, difficult coalition negotiations between three parties will necessarily produce complex compromises and therefore a less clear, forceful impulse to Brussels. And Germany is still only four pineapples. Assuming that French president Emmanuel Macron ends up fighting the final round of next spring’s presidential election against the nationalist populist Marine Le Pen, the hope must be that he will prevail. But having spent some time in France recently, I feel a nagging unease. The populist witches’ brew that combines the themes of immigration, Islam, terrorism and crime into a single fear-inducing narrative is very powerful in France. An unforeseen event, such as a terrorist attack on the eve of the run-off, could just make the unthinkable happen.

Europe also needs Italy’s “Super Mario” Draghi to remain as prime minister, rather than switching over to being the country’s president, possibly triggering an election in which nationalist populists could also do well. And it needs a sensible government to remain in power in Spain. Then and only then would you have, by the middle of next year, the necessary alignment for a post-Covid period of dynamic European reform.

All this is possible, but very far from certain. The government that emerges in Berlin is the first, but only the first, test of whether the European model of change through democratic consensus can deliver the goods. If democracy does not deliver, then young Europeans will look for alternative models. In an EU-wide opinion poll conducted last year for my research team in Oxford, 53% of young Europeans said they think authoritarian states are better equipped than democracies to tackle global heating. Europe’s challenge is to prove the opposite – and not just for the climate crisis.
The bit about the EU operating like a fruit machine is brilliant.

Hugh 16-09-2021 18:45
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Link to original article provided - this helps comply with newspapers’ "Fair Use" policies.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mocracy-europe

Carth 16-09-2021 18:48
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
newspapers’ "Fair Use" policies
. . which has been decimated since Andrex came onto the scene :D

OLD BOY 16-09-2021 21:32
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092985)
It's also good news for our EU friends.

“It’s ironic,” said one EU diplomat. “They talked about taking back control, but they are letting products into Britain without any controls at all. That’s fine with us.”

“Worse, it actually helps the UK’s competitors. The asymmetric nature of border controls facing exports and imports distorts the market and places many UK producers at a competitive disadvantage with EU producers.” Food & Drink Federation's Chief Executive Ian Wright.

https://www.ft.com/content/e32dda1b-...2-3d80604df431
This is a transitional arrangement, and it is called ‘flexibility’. Quite a contrast to the EU’s bureaucratic and rigid approach.

mrmistoffelees 16-09-2021 22:30
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36093308)
This is a transitional arrangement, and it is called ‘flexibility’. Quite a contrast to the EU’s bureaucratic and rigid approach.
No, it’s called kicking the down the road

Sephiroth 16-09-2021 22:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093322)
No, it’s called kicking the down the road
What's your point?

mrmistoffelees 16-09-2021 22:50
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093324)
What's your point?
Trying to sell our inability to implement the terms we agreed to as ‘flexibility’ is a non starter.

Clear enough for you? Or, do you want to get into it further ?

Sephiroth 16-09-2021 23:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093326)
Trying to sell our inability to implement the terms we agreed to as ‘flexibility’ is a non starter.

Clear enough for you? Or, do you want to get into it further ?
Well, why didn't you say so? Saying "just kicking the can down the road" has no value.

We are extending the grace period because of our inability (yet) to meet the terms of the agreement, That inability isn't a systems problem, it's a political problem. The EU is sticking to the letter of their regulations rather than adjusting to a more pragmatic method. The sandwiches matter comes to mind and, more importantly, delivery of medicines to NI from GB.

You drone on about "implementing the terms we agreed". If we did that, we would be stiffing our fellow NI citizens. Surely, you don't want that? Please answer me directly - do you really want to implement the agreement and thus worsen the NI people's situation?

1andrew1 17-09-2021 00:25
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36093308)
This is a transitional arrangement, and it is called ‘flexibility’. Quite a contrast to the EU’s bureaucratic and rigid approach.
Both are doing what's in their best interests.

By checking UK exports, the EU deters them. We've seen M&S announce the closure of 11 franchise stores in Paris citing post-Brexit checks. Longer term, this encourages investment in the EU as oppose to the UK.
In contrast, the UK is dependent on EU imports. By checking them, it would just mean even more empty shelves. However, it annoys the UK's food and drink manufacturers who are now at an economic disadvantage.

Hugh 17-09-2021 00:38
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093332)
Well, why didn't you say so? Saying "just kicking the can down the road" has no value.

We are extending the grace period because of our inability (yet) to meet the terms of the agreement, That inability isn't a systems problem, it's a political problem. The EU is sticking to the letter of their regulations rather than adjusting to a more pragmatic method. The sandwiches matter comes to mind and, more importantly, delivery of medicines to NI from GB.

You drone on about "implementing the terms we agreed". If we did that, we would be stiffing our fellow NI citizens. Surely, you don't want that? Please answer me directly - do you really want to implement the agreement and thus worsen the NI people's situation?
Why did Boris and the Tory Party sign it, then? Did they want to "stiff our fellow NI citizens" and "worsen the NI peoples’ situation"?

You seem to be blaming the neighbours rather than the arsonists who set the blaze off…

Sephiroth 17-09-2021 00:51
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36093346)
Why did Boris and the Tory Party sign it, then? Did they want to "stiff our fellow NI citizens" and "worsen the NI peoples’ situation"?

You seem to be blaming the neighbours rather than the arsonists who set the blaze off…
I've answered that question before.

They should not have signed it. The NI Protocol is a sham designed to cause difficulties for the UK. The EU knew it would be enforcing harsh customs rules and must have known that this would hurt the NI people. Boris and his lot obviously thought that they could get the NI Protocol revised after Brexit.

You talk about arsonists. The EC is "subversionist" and Boris now has to pull a miracle out of his hat or else ditch the protocol.


1andrew1 17-09-2021 07:21
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
F
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093347)
I've answered that question before.

They should not have signed it. The NI Protocol is a sham designed to cause difficulties for the UK. The EU knew it would be enforcing harsh customs rules and must have known that this would hurt the NI people. Boris and his lot obviously thought that they could get the NI Protocol revised after Brexit.

You talk about arsonists. The EC is "subversionist" and Boris now has to pull a miracle out of his hat or else ditch the protocol.

The Perfidious Albion Theory bears conssideration - that the UK signed the Protocol but thinks it can get away without implementing it fully.

mrmistoffelees 17-09-2021 09:10
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093332)
Well, why didn't you say so? Saying "just kicking the can down the road" has no value.

We are extending the grace period because of our inability (yet) to meet the terms of the agreement, That inability isn't a systems problem, it's a political problem. The EU is sticking to the letter of their regulations rather than adjusting to a more pragmatic method. The sandwiches matter comes to mind and, more importantly, delivery of medicines to NI from GB.

You drone on about "implementing the terms we agreed". If we did that, we would be stiffing our fellow NI citizens. Surely, you don't want that? Please answer me directly - do you really want to implement the agreement and thus worsen the NI people's situation?
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows what is meant by kicking the can down the road

The legally binding treaty which we agreed too needs to be implemented, simple as that. I don’t want to pay my taxes but guess what, I have to.

We’re going over old ground but to repeat we either

1) shouldn’t have signed the deal if it was so bad
2) didn’t understand the requirements of the deal we signed

As long as the EU aren’t breaking the conditions of the agreement they can interpret it and implement it as they see fit.

What happened to Brexit being easy?

Chris 17-09-2021 10:11
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Slightly pedantic but relevant in this case:

“Legally binding” is a misleading term when discussing a treaty between two sovereign states (or as in this case one sovereign state and a supranational organisation representing a number of sovereign states). A sovereign state cannot ultimately be bound by any law. That’s what sovereign means. It may honour or renege upon treaties. The calculation is national interest, whether it is more beneficial to honour the treaty or not. The things the sovereign gains directly from the treaty, along with global reputation on the one hand, are balanced against the disadvantages of the treaty on the other - along with the possibility of damaged reputation and/or other sanctions imposed by other sovereign states.

Ultimately none of this is really law in the sense you implied by comparing it with your taxes. In that case, the sovereign sets the law to which you are subject. If you fail to pay, no judge passing sentence will start from the position that you were just a sovereign entity who had the right to decide not to pay (despite the efforts of some Freeman-on-the-land nutters to try these tactics in court from time to time). In statecraft the response to a recalcitrant rival is persuasion, sanction or all-out war. In the courts it is simply sentence.

Sephiroth 17-09-2021 10:27
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36093356)
F
The Perfidious Albion Theory bears conssideration - that the UK signed the Protocol but thinks it can get away without implementing it fully.
You've completely ignored my point that the EU knew exactly how their rules implementation would hurt the NI people. Perfidious?

---------- Post added at 09:27 ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093359)
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows what is meant by kicking the can down the road

The legally binding treaty which we agreed too needs to be implemented, simple as that. I don’t want to pay my taxes but guess what, I have to.

We’re going over old ground but to repeat we either

1) shouldn’t have signed the deal if it was so bad
2) didn’t understand the requirements of the deal we signed

As long as the EU aren’t breaking the conditions of the agreement they can interpret it and implement it as they see fit.

What happened to Brexit being easy?
You're still in "I told you so" mode. Worthless.

mrmistoffelees 17-09-2021 10:41
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093365)
You've completely ignored my point that the EU knew exactly how their rules implementation would hurt the NI people. Perfidious?

---------- Post added at 09:27 ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 ----------


You're still in "I told you so" mode. Worthless.
And you’re still in denial mode, so ?

Sephiroth 17-09-2021 11:18
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093369)
And you’re still in denial mode, so ?
Another of your ridiculous and untrue remarks. Read my posts - I'm denying nothing. I challenge you to show where I'm in denial.

Carth 17-09-2021 11:21
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Well it's been a year or more since the 'event', and I still can't think of any area where it's had a negative impact on my lifestyle.

Maybe I don't have a lifestyle worth moaning about?

Lots of hardship due to Covid, but really struggling to think of one caused by Brexit alone.

papa smurf 17-09-2021 11:28
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36093378)
Well it's been a year or more since the 'event', and I still can't think of any area where it's had a negative impact on my lifestyle.

Maybe I don't have a lifestyle worth moaning about?

Lots of hardship due to Covid, but really struggling to think of one caused by Brexit alone.
The incessant remoaning by the usual suspects who still haven't accepted the result, but some days it's an upside that cheers me up as i laugh at their pain;)

Sephiroth 17-09-2021 11:32
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36093379)
The incessant remoaning by the usual suspects who still haven't accepted the result, but some days it's an upside that cheers me up as i laugh at their pain;)
Of all the Remainers, MrM appears to be the most vehement and you must thus be cracking up, Papa.

mrmistoffelees 17-09-2021 14:29
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093376)
Another of your ridiculous and untrue remarks. Read my posts - I'm denying nothing. I challenge you to show where I'm in denial.
It’s as valid a comment as your ‘I told you so’ statement earlier.

---------- Post added at 13:25 ---------- Previous post was at 13:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093382)
Of all the Remainers, MrM appears to be the most vehement and you must thus be cracking up, Papa.
Nope, as I’ve said in many posts prior I do hope we make a success of Brexit, but we shouldn’t be trying to weasel out of our responsibilities just because we had poor negotiators

---------- Post added at 13:29 ---------- Previous post was at 13:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36093379)
The incessant remoaning by the usual suspects who still haven't accepted the result, but some days it's an upside that cheers me up as i laugh at their pain;)
Aw bless, you’ll need to be cheered up as well after being caught fabricating stories of visiting hospitals. Won’t you, Billy ?

Mad Max 17-09-2021 20:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36093378)
Well it's been a year or more since the 'event', and I still can't think of any area where it's had a negative impact on my lifestyle.

Maybe I don't have a lifestyle worth moaning about?

Lots of hardship due to Covid, but really struggling to think of one caused by Brexit alone.
Spot on.:tu:

mrmistoffelees 17-09-2021 20:35
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36093444)
Spot on.:tu:
M&S announced the closure of eleven stores in France, nothing to do with covid
The sandwich fiasco that seph refers to, nothing to do with covid
Reintroduction of roaming fees, nothing to do with covid
Collapse in exports of shellfish, nothing to do with covid

Plenty more examples can be found should people wish to stop acting like ostriches.

Mad Max 17-09-2021 20:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093452)
M&S announced the closure of eleven stores in France, nothing to do with covid
The sandwich fiasco that seph refers to, nothing to do with covid
Reintroduction of roaming fees, nothing to do with covid
Collapse in exports of shellfish, nothing to do with covid

Plenty more examples can be found should people wish to stop acting like ostriches.
I feel your pain.

Hugh 17-09-2021 22:04
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36093455)
I feel your pain.
you feel his bread?

Carth 17-09-2021 23:52
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093452)
M&S announced the closure of eleven stores in France, nothing to do with covid
The sandwich fiasco that seph refers to, nothing to do with covid
Reintroduction of roaming fees, nothing to do with covid
Collapse in exports of shellfish, nothing to do with covid

Plenty more examples can be found should people wish to stop acting like ostriches.
As my post mentioned, which of those have caused you personal hardship and/or negatively affected you . . .

mrmistoffelees 18-09-2021 00:01
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36093512)
As my post mentioned, which of those have caused you personal hardship and/or negatively affected you . . .
That’s fair comment, however, imho I don’t believe in advocating for the I’m alright jack mentality.

Slowly but surely we’re seeing more and more cracks & fissures appearing as we progress in this new chapter outside of the EU. I hope I’m wrong but I have a feeling it’s going to get worse for many more people before it gets better

Carth 18-09-2021 00:25
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Yes I see that, however if I was of the 'I’m alright jack' persuasion, I could well have been employing scaffolders & steel fixers at £4 per hour plus free accommodation in a shit caravan on site . . . or something similar ;)

Mad Max 18-09-2021 19:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36093475)
you feel his bread?
No, I'm speaking in English not French, Hugh. ;)

OLD BOY 18-09-2021 22:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093452)
M&S announced the closure of eleven stores in France, nothing to do with covid
The sandwich fiasco that seph refers to, nothing to do with covid
Reintroduction of roaming fees, nothing to do with covid
Collapse in exports of shellfish, nothing to do with covid

Plenty more examples can be found should people wish to stop acting like ostriches.
M&S announced the closure of eleven stores in France, nothing to do with covid

Correct. It is due to EU interpretation pedantry.

The sandwich fiasco that seph refers to, nothing to do with covid

Correct. It is due to EU interpretation pedantry.

Reintroduction of roaming fees, nothing to do with covid

Correct, but we could legislate to prevent this from happening if all operators decided to go down that route.

Collapse in exports of shellfish, nothing to do with covid

Correct. It is due to EU intransigence and sheer obstinacy.

Hugh 18-09-2021 22:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36093612)
M&S announced the closure of eleven stores in France, nothing to do with covid

Correct. It is due to EU interpretation pedantry.

The sandwich fiasco that seph refers to, nothing to do with covid

Correct. It is due to EU interpretation pedantry.

Reintroduction of roaming fees, nothing to do with covid

Correct, but we could legislate to prevent this from happening if all operators decided to go down that route.

Collapse in exports of shellfish, nothing to do with covid

Correct. It is due to EU intransigence and sheer obstinacy.
Well, since 3 out of the 4 Operators have decided to go down that route, here’s hoping "legislation" occurs (but please feel free to hold your breath while waiting for it..).

mrmistoffelees 18-09-2021 22:54
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36093612)
M&S announced the closure of eleven stores in France, nothing to do with covid

Correct. It is due to EU interpretation pedantry.

The sandwich fiasco that seph refers to, nothing to do with covid

Correct. It is due to EU interpretation pedantry.

Reintroduction of roaming fees, nothing to do with covid

Correct, but we could legislate to prevent this from happening if all operators decided to go down that route.

Collapse in exports of shellfish, nothing to do with covid

Correct. It is due to EU intransigence and sheer obstinacy.
Perhaps if we had had a competent negotiating team the so called ‘interpretation pedantry’ wouldn’t have been an issue ?

Sephiroth 18-09-2021 23:31
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093618)
Perhaps if we had had a competent negotiating team the so called ‘interpretation pedantry’ wouldn’t have been an issue ?
Assuming there had been a "competent negotiating team" do you think that the EU would have settled for anything more favourable to the UK than was negotiated?

What do you think a "competent negotiating team" could have achieved that would have been better for the UK?

mrmistoffelees 18-09-2021 23:51
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093621)
Assuming there had been a "competent negotiating team" do you think that the EU would have settled for anything more favourable to the UK than was negotiated?

What do you think a "competent negotiating team" could have achieved that would have been better for the UK?
So, and if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that regardless of who we had negotiating on behalf of the U.K. we would have always come up short against the EU ?

Wasn’t there always the option of no deal which Boris had both the majority and the mandate for following the landslide Tory election victory ?

Sephiroth 19-09-2021 00:03
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093626)
So, and if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that regardless of who we had negotiating on behalf of the U.K. we would have always come up short against the EU ?

Wasn’t there always the option of no deal which Boris had both the majority and the mandate for following the landslide Tory election victory ?
You understood me correctly.

And I've consistently said that Boris should have not sealed a deal. We should just have dropped out of the EU.

mrmistoffelees 19-09-2021 00:05
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36093629)
You understood me correctly.

And I've consistently said that Boris should have not sealed a deal. We should just have dropped out of the EU.
You have indeed, which begs the question, why are you so angry at the EU for the U.K. governments shortcomings/failures ?

OLD BOY 19-09-2021 00:35
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093618)
Perhaps if we had had a competent negotiating team the so called ‘interpretation pedantry’ wouldn’t have been an issue ?
Or maybe a reasonable man’s interpretation of the agreement is different from that of the EU.

I can’t believe that you continue to defend these people against our own interests.

---------- Post added at 23:34 ---------- Previous post was at 23:32 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093626)
So, and if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that regardless of who we had negotiating on behalf of the U.K. we would have always come up short against the EU ?

Wasn’t there always the option of no deal which Boris had both the majority and the mandate for following the landslide Tory election victory ?
What’s happened to your memory? There was opposition to the idea of a ‘no deal’. Have you forgotten that?

---------- Post added at 23:35 ---------- Previous post was at 23:34 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093630)
You have indeed, which begs the question, why are you so angry at the EU for the U.K. governments shortcomings/failures ?
I blame the remainers. They did their absolute best to kill Brexit. What they did achieve was an imperfect Brexit deal.

This will not stand. Watch this space.

Hugh 19-09-2021 00:37
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
"Our interests" are to be seen as a trustworthy partner in any future treaties we sign, not as a country who sign up to something for brief internal political gains, then almost immediately reneg on it.

A "reasonable person" tries to understand both sides of an argument, and then tries to propose a way forward, rather than constantly bleating about unfair it is that people expect you to live up to the agreements you signed…

Quote:
I blame the remainers
Course you do - unfortunately for you, reality does not reflect your thinking - neither Frost (who negotiated the agreement) or Johnson (who drove it through) are Remainers.

mrmistoffelees 19-09-2021 00:59
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36093634)
Or maybe a reasonable man’s interpretation of the agreement is different from that of the EU.

I can’t believe that you continue to defend these people against our own interests.

---------- Post added at 23:34 ---------- Previous post was at 23:32 ----------



What’s happened to your memory? There was opposition to the idea of a ‘no deal’. Have you forgotten that?

---------- Post added at 23:35 ---------- Previous post was at 23:34 ----------



I blame the remainers. They did their absolute best to kill Brexit. What they did achieve was an imperfect Brexit deal.

This will not stand. Watch this space.
OB I think your memory does you a disservice.

At the tories landslide election they campaigned on no deal was better than a bad deal, they subsequently won by a landslide. They had the numbers to force no deal through but chose not too.

In terms of the challenges that we’re currently facing from Brexit, all roads lead to Rome as to who is culpable for that.

1. The failure of U.K. negotiators as highlighted by seph
2. The failure of Boris to take the U.K. out on no deal when he had the numbers (this is if you believe no deal was ever a viable option)
3. The failure of those Brexiteers when considering points 1 & 2 above to think for some reason that the EU should ‘throw us a bone’ in terms of renegotiating.

1andrew1 19-09-2021 01:05
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093646)
OB I think your memory does you a disservice.
I think this is the crux of the matter.

OLD BOY 19-09-2021 01:05
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093618)
Perhaps if we had had a competent negotiating team the so called ‘interpretation pedantry’ wouldn’t have been an issue ?
The interpretation has happened subsequent to the agreement. I think the fault on our side was that once an agreement was made, both sides would rely on good faith.

Clearly, that’s not possible with the EU. I would never trust those charlatans again. Ever.

mrmistoffelees 19-09-2021 01:07
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36093649)
The interpretation has happened subsequent to the agreement. I think the fault on our side was that once an agreement was made, both sides would rely on good faith.

Clearly, that’s not possible with the EU. I would never trust those charlatans again. Ever.
Again, after the election Boris had the numbers to take us out on no deal, why didn’t he ?

Carth 19-09-2021 01:07
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
My memory must be as bad as OB's then, as I remember a fair few Parliamentary personnel loudly slagging off the 'no deal' option

mrmistoffelees 19-09-2021 01:10
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36093651)
My memory must be as bad as OB's then, as I remember a fair few Parliamentary personnel loudly slagging off the 'no deal' option

That would have been prior to the election. I’ll grant you there were still those decrying no deal afterwards but Boris had the numbers to force it through

OLD BOY 19-09-2021 01:10
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36093637)
"Our interests" are to be seen as a trustworthy partner in any future treaties we sign, not as a country who sign up to something for brief internal political gains, then almost immediately reneg on it.

A "reasonable person" tries to understand both sides of an argument, and then tries to propose a way forward, rather than constantly bleating about unfair it is that people expect you to live up to the agreements you signed…
We reneged because the EU has made an absurd interpretation on a signed document.

The EU interpreted it in a way that no reasonable party to an agreement would.

Once again, batting for the other side.

Incidentally, when has the EU ever fitted your ‘reasonable person’ definition?

mrmistoffelees 19-09-2021 01:16
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36093654)
We reneged because the EU has made an absurd interpretation on a signed document.

The EU interpreted it in a way that no reasonable party to an agreement would.

Once again, batting for the other side.

Incidentally, when has the EU ever fitted your ‘reasonable person’ definition?
Has the EU done anything legally wrong ? Or, broken the terms of the treaty in anyway?

OLD BOY 19-09-2021 01:18
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093650)
Again, after the election Boris had the numbers to take us out on no deal, why didn’t he ?
Because of all the previous remainer narratives about how ‘no deal’ would be disastrous for us, the PM had to accept the deal that was available, because otherwise there were too many doubts in the minds of the public. He may have had the majority (just) but he needed to retain public trust.

The PM has already made clear there is agent out clause. We can give notice of termination if we cannot make it work. By that time, the public will probably agree.

---------- Post added at 00:18 ---------- Previous post was at 00:16 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093655)
Has the EU done anything legally wrong ? Or, broken the terms of the treaty in anyway?
I guess morality and trustworthiness doesn’t come into it in your mind.

mrmistoffelees 19-09-2021 01:22
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36093656)
Because of all the previous remainer narratives about how ‘no deal’ would be disastrous for us, the PM had to accept the deal that was available, because otherwise there were too many doubts in the minds of the public. He may have had the majority (just) but he needed to retain public trust.

The PM has already made clear there is agent out clause. We can give notice of termination if we cannot make it work. By that time, the public will probably agree.
He didn’t have to accept it at all, he clearly stated that no deal was better than a bad deal. He put that forward as part of his election manifesto and the tories were returned based on that.

---------- Post added at 00:22 ---------- Previous post was at 00:19 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36093656)
Because of all the previous remainer narratives about how ‘no deal’ would be disastrous for us, the PM had to accept the deal that was available, because otherwise there were too many doubts in the minds of the public. He may have had the majority (just) but he needed to retain public trust.

The PM has already made clear there is agent out clause. We can give notice of termination if we cannot make it work. By that time, the public will probably agree.

---------- Post added at 00:18 ---------- Previous post was at 00:16 ----------



I guess morality and trustworthiness doesn’t come into it in your mind.
I hardly think you’re in a position to level criticisms regarding morality & trustworthiness as you would have the U.K. breach our legally binding obligations.

OLD BOY 19-09-2021 01:24
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093658)
He didn’t have to accept it at all, he clearly stated that no deal was better than a bad deal. He put that forward as part of his election manifesto and the tories were returned based on that..
As I said, a ‘no deal’ would have caused a crisis of confidence amongst the public.

Best to let the public see that the deal is not working in order to get that support.

mrmistoffelees 19-09-2021 01:27
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36093661)
As I said, a ‘no deal’ would have caused a crisis of confidence amongst the public.

Best to let the public see that the deal is not working in order to get that support.
Why would it ? He campaigned on it, the public knew what no deal would entail. The tories were elected.

Doesn’t seem like a crisis of confidence to me, if anything he had the electorates backing to push it through.

OLD BOY 19-09-2021 01:30
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093658)

I hardly think you’re in a position to level criticisms regarding morality & trustworthiness as you would have the U.K. breach our legally binding obligations.
Oh, my God, listen to yourself!

You have completely ignored the fact that the EU is deliberately interpreting tha agreements we have made in the most obstructive way.

If you are happy with that, fine. Clearly you are happy for the EU to walk all over us.

I’ve got news for you. We have elected a government that will not let that happen. And I dare say you will be squealing like a pig every step of the way as we extricate ourselves from this position.

---------- Post added at 00:30 ---------- Previous post was at 00:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093664)
Why would it ? He campaigned on it, the public knew what no deal would entail. The tories were elected.

Doesn’t seem like a crisis of confidence to me, if anything he had the electorates backing to push it through.
It was very clear, if you were concentrating very hard, that the public was anxious about a no-deal because of the scare tactics of the remainers.

You may think we’ve forgotten, but we have not.

mrmistoffelees 19-09-2021 01:35
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36093665)
Oh, my God, listen to yourself!

You have completely ignored the fact that the EU is deliberately interpreting tha agreements we have made in the most obstructive way.

If you are happy with that, fine. Clearly you are happy for the EU to walk all over us.

I’ve got news for you. We have elected a government that will not let that happen. And I dare say you will be squealing like a pig every step of the way as we extricate ourselves from this position.
They’re doing nothing outside of the scope of the treaty. So, unless the U.K. intends to break that treaty and btw the US has already reiterated in the past couple of days that should this cause issues with the NI peace agreement there will be no U.K. / US trade deal.

I’ll bet you a grand to the charity of your choice that says we won’t crash out of the treaty. Put your money where your mouth is ?

Carth 19-09-2021 01:37
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093652)
That would have been prior to the election. I’ll grant you there were still those decrying no deal afterwards but Boris had the numbers to force it through
The majority of people voted to leave, but that didn't stop lots of 'legal shenanigans' to prevent it though.
Forcing the 'no deal' would undoubtedly have led to further mischief from those who said yes but had their fingers crossed behind their backs

mrmistoffelees 19-09-2021 01:39
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36093670)
The majority of people voted to leave, but that didn't stop lots of 'legal shenanigans' to prevent it though.
Forcing the 'no deal' would undoubtedly have led to further mischief from those who said yes but had their fingers crossed behind their backs
They couldn’t have done anything except perhaps slightly delay the process, he had the means to go no deal, he had the electorates mandate to go no deal. He didn’t

OLD BOY 19-09-2021 01:55
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36093671)
They couldn’t have done anything except perhaps slightly delay the process, he had the means to go no deal, he had the electorates mandate to go no deal. He didn’t
You’re not listening.


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