Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

What Royal Navy ? It's been cut back massively in recent years and has more important things to do than guard fish. Even when we did have a Navy we lost the 'Cod Wars' to the mighty Iceland....

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

UK to strengthen sea patrols to ward off post-Brexit fishing wars

https://www.theguardian.com/business...t-fishing-wars

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Looks good to me. If the EU want to play the game they don't have long to pass the ball . . and I think we all know the result if they insist on keeping it ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

We should simply walk away until they face reality. The introduction of the backstop only applies if the EU shows "good faith" in the negotiations. Little sign of that, so goodbye backstop.:)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I think BoJo got rid of the backstop
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11...resa-May-viral

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

AFAIK it's just in a different form.
Link

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The detail is in the rest of the document. It is only about NI, so if everything about the backstop has gone, what is there to negotiate separately on? Whatever arrangements there are in that document can be ignored in the future, if a lack of good faith is demonstrated.


From 2 page explainer on the protocol.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

It's still 63 pages of special rules involving NI, if no alternatives are set in place by the end of this year. That is what the term "backstop" refers to.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The Withdrawal Agreement is legally binding, it's the Political Declaration that isn't.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

One of the key differences is that the "unless and until" part has gone, and NI can independently of the EU and GB decide to end the arrangements.
The backstop has gone, but a backstop is still there.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

And where exactly does it say that?:rolleyes:

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The term "backstop" is just a term for an alternative subset of arrangements that are put in place if no other arrangements are there by the end of this year. Where does it say there would be a customs border in the Irish Sea?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

In the House of Commons Library.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...reland-border/

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Where's that information from, and is it newer than Hugh's info of 14/1/2020?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I'd say that's from October last year...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Looks like our future relationship is going to be a tad frosty.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I thought the "oven ready" deal would keep it warm...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Nah the EU can't be trusted they keep trying to move the goal posts.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

We're the ones that have left the team and want to play by our own rules...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I'm not that bothered,i still think we will leave without a deal at the end of the year and go our own way once again.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Funnily enough, a pro-Brexit group disagree with you - they say the EU are sticking to what they said originally.

https://facts4eu.org/news/2019_dec_cooking_boris

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The EU is going to manoeuvre for the most favourable outcome for themselves. It’s a negotiation, that’s what happens. I’m not remotely surprised or bothered by this.

What I do find instructive is the extent to which the EU perceives its interests as deep alignment of UK standards and regulations with theirs, the parliament even going so far as to demand dynamic alignment (ie we adopt their new directives automatically as they are issued, possibly having been consulted as per the Norway model, but without our direct negotiating influence, or veto). It seems clear to me that the EU is aware that much of its regulatory framework makes business uncompetitive, and it only gets away with it because (until now) every major economy in Europe was locked into the same level, but decidedly boggy, playing field.

The UK being unshackled from this gives them a major headache, as does the UK’s starting point in the negotiations, which is that we won’t accept alignment and will accept a looser arrangement with the EU as a result. In other words, we’ve already told them we don’t want very much, and are therefore not going to pay their very high price to get it. In these circumstances the UK’s immovable negotiating deadline pressurises them, not us.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

It is so predictable that all those remainers who tried to overturn the decision of the electorate and argued that we would never get the EU to agree to the Withdrawal Agreement, and then argued that we'd never be able to re-negotiate the backstop, are now saying we will never get a tariff-free trade deal without signing up to the EU's demands on equivalence and fishing.

Will they never stop being so negative and talking this country down? They never learn from their mistakes, do they?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Remainers aren’t saying it, the EU is...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

They're the ones who want us to remain ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Dont you mean the Parthenon Marbles that were stolen by Lord Elgin? ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The EU stole Greece,of course they wan't the artifacts that go with their conquest.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Made me chuckle.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

This is just a typical divorce scenario, ie one side wants custody of the ornaments as well as all the money/ resources;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Can I suggest they keep all the Fiats and Citroens while we get to keep the fish?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Was that after the IMF bought the U.K.?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Sorry can't afford to read that,got anything free?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

1967 - https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1...sterling-1967/

1976 - https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1...risis-of-1976/

Hope this helps...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Ah Labour ran out of money for a change;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Who, Tom Cruise!

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

If we have to start giving back the stuff we 'borrowed' the British Museum is screwed. :shocked::D

---------- Post added at 20:12 ---------- Previous post was at 20:09 ----------

I don't understand why you wanted to leave the EU so much when every element of negotiation so outrages you. The EU is going to make demands, some will be met and others will be conceded.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Your still 'stiffing' everyone and trying to find enemies I see. This is what Brexit was all about, picking a fight because we like that sort of thing. Living in peace and harmony with our neighbours has always irritated us. 'We're better and superior to you' seems to be the argument - we're really not.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

It's not a mature way to view international relations or politics. Macron is not the enemy but his interests lie in France and the French economy not ours, so he'll be looking to exploit every advantage he can from the current situation.

In the end what matters is the skill of the negotiators a bit and the cards they have to play the most. It is not up to Macron to help us out. If our hand is so strong then let him talk all he wants because he has no cards to play. If he succeeds in getting an advantage over us then that would only be him having done his job and us failing in ours.

France, Ireland, Germany and the EU. As far as trade goes they're currently on the other side of the table. Once it's all done and dusted then amicability will return and the only people will be upset will be those who seemed to want to leave the EU purely out of spite that other countries exist - and they'll always be unhappy anyway but thankfully they're a very small minority.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Yes - still stiffing; but the same villains as before Brexit.
It's consistency on my part. Most Brexiters want to see those two get got.

As to the rest of your paragraph - it's totally non-sequitur. "Better &* superior" doesn't come into it. It's all about sovereignty and thus not being judged by the ECJ.


---------- Post added at 21:11 ---------- Previous post was at 21:03 ----------

Macron is not the enemy but his interests lie in France and the French economy not ours, so he'll be looking to exploit every advantage he can from the current situation. . We know all that. His demands make him stiffable.


In the end what matters is the skill of the negotiators a bit and the cards they have to play the most. It is not up to Macron to help us out. If our hand is so strong then let him talk all he wants because he has no cards to play. If he succeeds in getting an advantage over us then that would only be him having done his job and us failing in ours. What does Macron expect us to do? Cave in? Does he want to sell us his poxy Citroens?
His smelly cheese? His wines that are equalled by the New World?

France, Ireland, Germany and the EU. As far as trade goes they're currently on the other side of the table. Once it's all done and dusted then amicability will return and the only people will be upset will be those who seemed to want to leave the EU purely out of spite that other countries exist - and they'll always be unhappy anyway but thankfully they're a very small minority. They ought to think about what will get them in the right position to trade with us not get up our nose. I hope you're not associating me with what I've highlighted in red. Obviously I want a trade deal with them, but those two perfidious individuals are way high on my shit list.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

So what exactly has the EU been saying that is even remotely "a mature way to view international relations or politics"?:rolleyes: They're making demands of the UK that no other country would ask, never mind accept.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

We need to find the solutions, not the EU, our choice to leave. I'm sure we thought about all this before we left, and aren't suddenly panicking with no plan...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

That's what make me laugh most about Brexiteers, they're all driving German cars ! They are going to cost quite a bit more now. Never mind we can always resurrect the Austin Allegro....

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

That’s the whole point of doing a trade deal. But if the EU don’t want a deal and want to increase the cost their cars, there’s plenty of choice out there.

I’ve recently ditched my two Audi’s for two new Fords.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Hey . . nothing (much) wrong with the old Allegro . . well mebbe the steering wheel was a bit odd . . but it was a car I could fix myself without the need of expensive computer equipment, it didn't have a myriad of pointless sensors that failed and required costly replacing before you could drive it again, a full exhaust cost about £50, and I could change the bloody headlight bulb in 5 minutes :D

. . the awful Talbot Horizon was a different kettle of fish though :shocked:


ooops, sorry to mention fish ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Which Fords did you go for;

Fiesta - made in Germany
Focus - made in Germany
B-Max - made in Germany
C-Max - made in Germany
S-Max - made in Spain
Galaxy - made in Spain
Kuga - made in Spain
Ecosport - made in Romania

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

well if Labour hadn't single-handedly killed the UK car industry, we might have had something better by now.

---------- Post added at 09:04 ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 ----------

Mustang v8 5.0 convertible, made in the USA

Ford Ranger Wildtrack, made in the USA

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

There are three decent Nissan models built in the UK that won’t attract import duties no matter what. Or there’s the Astra if you have no self respect at all.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Import duties from US;

• 22% for trucks (including pickups, when the cargo area is more than 50% of the length of the wheelbase)
• 10% for passenger cars (this includes pickup trucks, when the cargo area is less than 50% of the length of the wheelbase)

(of course we pay the same either directly or indirectly for all the BMW SUVs as they are made in the US)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Yes, that has been said before*...

For your edification...

https://publications.parliament.uk/p...is/379/379.pdf (page 9)
(*wasn't true then, either... ;) )

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Joking aside, as the UK is not really a primary manufacturing base (we build, not make) and the way the car industry across Europe works with components moving around all over the place before being assembled in to a car, there are some interesting side issues in whatever upcoming deal extremely relevant to the car industry...

As well as tariffs, rules of origin are a huge deal for that industry. Cumulation is a hell of a subject all of its' own...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Yup, that's mentioned on page 20 of the link I posted.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The latter, 10% or not, the price was not prohibitive. The Mustang was only the same price as a mid-range BMW 3 series.

The pick up looks great and was only a couple of grand more expensive than the Mustang.

If tariffs were slapped on Audi's and BMW's they would start to look much less attractive.

---------- Post added at 13:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 ----------

You can look at it other ways.

The UK is BMW's 4th biggest market

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-of-bmw-group/

The UK is Audi's 4th biggest market

https://www.best-selling-cars.com/br...les-worldwide/

The UK is the 4th Biggest Market for Mercedes Benz

https://www.statista.com/outlook/100...-globalRevenue

You see the pattern?

Regardless of export volumes back and forth. The UK is the 4th biggest market for German cars and slapping tarriffs on them would hurt them.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

That's a lot of drug dealers:(

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

And the EU is our biggest market - It accounted for 54.8% of UK-built vehicle exports.

What do you think will hurt more - losing your 4th biggest market (around 6-9% of your market), or losing your biggest market (losing around 55% of your market)?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

It would hurt both, it’s not a question of who can hurt each other more.

As was the original argument, the CEO of BMW, VW, Audi & Mercedes most likely could not give a toss about U.K. imports into the EU. They are concerned with their sales only and their workers.

The German chancellor is not accountable to the EU, She/He is accountable to their voters and if they fail to get a deal and that adversely impacts the German motor industry they will know about it.

And that goes for all EU leaders and their respective economies, they can put on a united front but they also have to look after themselves.

It is in everyone’s interest to have good trading relationship, and a good relationship in general.

So there will be much brinkmanship in 2020, I’m sure an agreement will be sorted.

My own personal view though, is that access to U.K. fishing waters will be sacrificed on the alter of any future relationship.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Germany’s leading industry (and automotive) representatives disagree with you...

https://www.politico.eu/article/germ...t-over-brexit/

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

(from above)

Well they would say that wouldn't they :p: and to be honest, if they said anything different they'd be complete muppets.

I'm sure the 'gang of two' (Germany/France) will be wanting to push the hard line to save face . . wouldn't want the other (lower) member states getting ideas above their station eh ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

From an article 2 and a half years ago, before we’d left, before we even had a transition agreement.

An absolute age, in regards to this process.

The German automotive industry is facing tough headwinds, it would be foolish to make things worse.

https://www.cityam.com/decline-in-ge...n-its-economy/

Business is business.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

don't worry the EU will order new votes untill it gets the result it wants.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The poll had nothing to do with the EU...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Varadkar or Sinn Fein, who do you prefer?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

i didn't mention poll.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Irrelevant, unless you are eligible to vote in the Irish elections.

I prefer, whoever the Irish vote for.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

From the gov.uk website - our new "blue" British passport*.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/i...urn-next-month https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...3&d=1582408445

Looks black** to me - I suppose I just have to believe it’s blue more...

*made in Poland by a French company

(**Same colour as my passport from the 80’s, which I still have (with the corner cut off).

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The pre-EU passport has always been described as blue even though it was a very dark shade (I think it’s what you call “midnight blue” ... my first car was that colour). I don’t think there’s much (any) controversy here. For those who value the symbolism of the colour change, reverting to the same very dark shade of the pre-EU passport will be much more in line with their hopes than some of the lighter blue mock-ups that appeared in the media when the change was first announced.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I actually prefer the black tone to the blue. Looks more sleek and professional.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Could be pink with yellow stripes for all I care.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Nah, that would look awful.

I think they should have gone more radical though. The ones in Norway are amazing: https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2...assport-design

The symbolism of changing the passport should have been to something altogether new rather than reverting to the past although I don't really care that much.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

From the gov.uk passport application site - even they aren’t sure... :D

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...4&d=1582452070

Black is blue, and war is peace, ignorance is strength, Airstrip One has always had a blue passport, etc... ;)

btw, here’s the mock up Theresa May showed people..

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1582452393

Now that’s blue.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I like the Swiss passport - https://www.ofs.ch/products-services...tems/passport/

And the New Zealand one - https://images.app.goo.gl/eUcM9KUQMCcnQqtd8

In other news, the CBI have published what they would like to see from an ongoing relationship with the EU - https://www.cbi.org.uk/articles/the-...-relationship/

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...10riyo?ocid=sf

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

:bigcry:

ooh le sob, le sob.;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Maybe it's only me, but I always thought both sides would rip up parts of any 'agreement' in order to stop the other side from having a perceived advantage.

In the history of the world, I doubt there's ever been a plan drawn up that remained unchanged from conception to completion.

Anyway, I much prefer the word Haggling instead of Negotiating :p:

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

That would be an incorrect assumption - Agreements/Treaties last for (an agreed) fixed term, or until superseded by another Agreement/Treaty.

If any country (not just the UK) decided that they could abrogate International Agreements when they wanted to, the Agreements/Treaties would be worthless, so why would any other country sign any Treaties or Agreements with that county?

Here is the UKG "Future Relationship" document - https://assets.publishing.service.go...ith_the_EU.pdf

A couple of points it makes are Each of those treaties took around 7 years, and they didn't have anywhere near the amount of Services to trade as the UK does - the UK is stating it has to be done by the end of the year.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Meanwhile, el gov has been extremely specific in Parliament today about how there will be no alignment, no continuing EU access to British fishing waters and if it doesn’t look like the outline of a deal is emerging by June, it is prepared to walk away and focus on preparing for WTO.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51650961

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

[COLOR="Navy"][/[QUOTE][/well done the Guvmin.

On Hugh’s point about Canada taking 7 years, the difference is that we start in perfect alignment. It’ll be the EU’s pig headedness that will put a spanner in the works.

QUOTE]COLOR]

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Here's an interesting blog post by David Allen Green on the hazards of moving away from the non-binding commitments made in the Political Declaration - https://davidallengreen.com/2020/02/...l-declaration/

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

[QUOTE=Sephiroth;36025770][COLOR="Navy"][/I bet you don't try that line with your wife - "we started off agreeing, I'm being reasonable and you're being pig-headed!"... :D

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

[QUOTE=Hugh;36025773]I thought the name SWMBO was there for a reason..... ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Agreeing to try and come to a further agreement, does not mean simply surrendering to whatever the EU says.
It's the EU trying to overturn these.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Just a thought regarding the fishing stuff . .

Would it be better for the UK if the EU could catch their own?

or

Would it be better for the UK if we caught it all and SOLD it to the EU?

asking for a friend ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

[QUOTE=Hugh;36025773]Irrelevant. But one way of dodging the obvious point.