Re: Brexit
 

Well keyboard warriors are less surprising.

Re: Brexit
 

How long before some nutter actually throws acid? the police and courts need to get on top of this before someone is seriously injured or killed.

Re: Brexit
 

Nothing has been learned sadly since the Jo Cox murder.

Re: Brexit
 

She is as duplicitous as she comes, that said, her WA, is still dead, she has just offered an incentive to stop Brexit if they vote against WA, so a raft of MPs including SNP have just tweeted they will do that then.

Lib Dems: Don't trust her, her carrot dangling of a second referendum, after WA is agreed not enough. Looks like they will vote against it too.

Re: Brexit
 

He can certainly take a civil action for damages, and if the person is found guilty of assault in a criminal court where the burden of proof is much higher, then he will certainly lose any case brought against him in a civil court.

---------- Post added at 17:20 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

you're right it still won't get over the line.

The backstop is still there, so DUP wont vote for it, or many Tories because of that.
It's still Brexit so Lib-Dems wont vote for it, nor will SNP and Nor will the one Green.
Labour will be told not to vote for it, a handful still will but that's all.
There's no way enough Tories will vote for it.

It's dead, I don't know why she's bothering.

She should go, Tories need to get a Leaver in charge that can rip up the WA, go back to Brussels and get and get a deal that can get the support of parliament but I fear that is impossible.

The only Brexit can be delivered, if it is to be delivered is leave with no deal and negotiate our future relationship from outside the EU, and call everyones bluff on the N.I. issue I the process.

Re: Brexit
 

Guess she's gambling, she might get enough Labour MPs to pass it, and then gambling again Parliament will vote against a referendum. Hell of a gamble but she's got nothing to lose.

Anyway what's wrong with another Referendum, Leave will win easily won't it ? Granted it'll be BRINO, but better than nothing and we'll be out of the 'corrupt' EU with a deal that has the worst of all worlds and leaves us worse off. At least you'll be able to claim 'we won' so that's the main thing :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

Depends on the question.

May's deal (Which is still remaining in EU but worse) vs. Remain, is not a legitimate referendum to leave the EU.

It would have to be May's Deal vs. No deal.

Remain should not be an option - this has already been dealt with in 2016 Referendum.

Anyway, JC just issued Statement saying PM's offer isn't enough and will be voted against.

As it stands, WA is dead, as is her Premiership. Her resignation will now be expedited.

I can thank her for one thing though today, she has probably brought more votes to Brexit Party this Thursday. Cheers May.It is, as is her premiership.

---------- Post added at 18:52 ---------- Previous post was at 18:00 ----------

Brexit Party rally tonight at Olympia, London at 7pm doors opened less than an hour ago and the queue to get in, is very very long (This is in Remain territory, in London btw)

https://twitter.com/LubosTomicekCom/...87075602063360

Re: Brexit
 

London is obviously 'Remain territory' but it still has Brexit voters and in a city of 8 million that's a lot of voters. There are probably more Brexit voters in London than any other equivalent area in Britain simply because of the popularity density.

---------- Post added at 20:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:07 ----------

The problem is (partly) the language we use. I do not respect Farage and think he is a bad thing for the country. However I don't think he is a fascist and he is entitled to use the political system. When we call people fascists or traitors and present them as an existential threat then we end up legitimatising attacks on them.

People need to calm down.

At the same time I don't want to go overboard. Egging has been around for a while without leading to escalation, he just need to be careful it doesn't start.

Re: Brexit
 

Nah, it's a poor telly night and the football season has finished.... ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Pro-Brexit MP David Davis is being interviewed by the BBC here on the rise in abuse that MPs face...and is then harassed by a hard Brexiter. Shows the pressure that MPs are under. Davis wears a body camera to record the abuse het gets.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wal...g-tv-interview

Re: Brexit
 

The woman clearly just wanted to spout off and rant, as she was not prepared to listen. (She also sounded slightly Australian to me).

Re: Brexit
 

I get annoyed when we are discussing Brexit, for example, and when people run out of arguments they go for character assassination instead. The complaint made about his expenses has not been proven, but in the eyes of some, any old mud thrown at him will stick.

The thing some remainers find hard to grasp is that whatever the faults (or alleged faults) of the man, most Brexiteers agree with the views he expresses. He does express them very well, too.

Re: Brexit
 

Not taking sides here but character assassination seems to be one of the tactics on both sides of the fence and to be frankly honest its quite pathetic.

Re: Brexit
 

The Electoral commission just spent 7 hrs pouring over the Brexit Party accounts and have found nothing amiss. Funny how not much has been reported about that.

Re: Brexit
 

There, you've said it. The referendum will ask the public whether they want to stay or take Brino. A majority of the electorate voted for Brexit. Where's that option?

You cannot legitimately fault Brexit voting electors for not wanting another referendum. It's a stitch-up and the Government would never be forgiven for such an outcome.

Democracy is at stake here. Give us a leader who can deliver Brexit. That's what was voted for and that's what we want.

Re: Brexit
 

Well, the only leaders debate to currently take place between Vince Cable and Nigel Farage, this morning and Lib Dem's Vince, was late showing up to the interview by 15 minutes, so that was not good start.

Re: Brexit
 

All the leaders should have to debate instead of hiding behind their petticoats.

Re: Brexit
 

BREAKING: Brexit Party surging to nearly 40% in latest European Parliament voting intention Poll:

BREX: 38% (+4)
LAB: 17% (-3)
LDEM: 15% (-)
CON: 12% (-)
GRN: 7% (+1)
CHUK: 3% (-)
UKIP: 2% (-)

via
@OpiniumResearch

Chgs. w/ 16 May

Re: Brexit
 

Will the Remainers even flinch? I doubt it. I hope this makes our MPs sit up and taste the coffee, though. They will never, ever, be forgiven if they ignore what so many people want.

Re: Brexit
 

So that works out as:

40% for Leave parties

25% for Remain parties

29% for Labour & Tory, then you have to work out the % of Labour/Tory that vote Leave/Remain.

No value on the that list for SNP?

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

The very definition of democracy would be to have another referendum. A lot has happened in the 3 years from 2016.

Re: Brexit
 

A UK-wide poll won’t show anything useful about the SNP because they only stand in one voting region.

They presently have 2 of 6 seats in Scotland and don’t stand a cat in hell’s chance of getting a third unless they scoop up well over half of all the votes cast in Scotland this week, which seems unlikely.

UKIP had one seat in Scotland after the last election but the sitting MEP switched to the Brexit Party when it launched. There’s a reasonable chance the Brexit will take a second seat here, which will look absolutely brilliant because they will then be level pegging with the SNP and, if they’re any good at their PR, they will have an opportunity to push back on Sturgeon’s incessant greetin’ about how everyone in Scotland hates Brexit and loves the EU (which is untrue, and always has been).

Re: Brexit
 

Not without a choice for Brexit, it isn't. We voted for that first time around and now it's not even an option. That is definitely NOT democracy.

Re: Brexit
 

Then what? If certain quarters were prepared to honour the result of any 2nd vote, why on earth aren't they prepared to accept and honour the first?

Anything and everything, negative that has happened since the 1st vote, is SOLELY down to the Remain side. Everything they have done is to block Brexit in every way possible. If the Leave side had lost, then yes they wouldn't be happy, but they wouldn't have tried to block Remain.

Let's just suppose there was a 2nd vote, and Remain won(because the only questions allowed will be Remain or Remain). Then in 3 years time things change dramatically for the worse(which they definitely would), would a 3rd vote be allowed?

Re: Brexit
 

This is exactly one of the reasons the way the country is at the minute. Blaming one side for everything. Putting the blame solely on the remain side is ludicrous and one of the most ridiculous things I've heard on here. Is it any wonder we're stuck as we are if people have that attitude.

Re: Brexit
 

... and so we enter into the realms of the EU solution to all problematic referendums; if you don't get the answer you want keep going until you do get it and then, and only then, do you stop ~ that's EU democracy for you.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

There is an ominous feeling in the commons today, almost "funeral like", that there is workings going on behind the scenes to get May out of office ASAP.

Prominent Cabinet Brexiteers are missing from the front Bench during today's PMQs: Gove, Truss, Leadsom, Fox, Grayling all still absent. I am informed though that Grayling, is in Germany, at a Transport summit.

---------- Post added at 12:47 ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 ----------

Leadsom now appeared on Front Bench, Pizza club plotting concluded ?

Re: Brexit
 

So what have the Remain side done that HASN'T blocked Brexit? Unless you are suggesting that it has been the Brexit side that has been blocking it.:rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

To be fair, the ERG has been blocking Brexit, because it thinks May’s deal isn’t Brexity enough.

Re: Brexit
 

It's not Brexit in any shape or form. What utter moron allowed "to apply unless and until an alternative arrangement implementing another scenario is agreed," into the WA, which means a customs union stays in place until the EU kindly through the goodness of it's heart, allows otherwise.

Re: Brexit
 

For the last few days I have been in the far north of Scotland and sitting & looking at the views at Cape Wrath

Attachment 27878

Brexit seemed a long way away. Back home, reality creeps back in :(

Here's a depressing example: Femi is an ardent Remain campaigner who tries to argue the case for Remain/2nd Vote in a calm and constructive way. He never insults anyone and is always calm and respectful.

Here he is at a rally where he is offering to debate the case for No Deal with anyone who wants to talk to him:

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/statu...66941236498434

Watch the video and see the sort of Britain what may await us ..

Here he is wanting to debate with people and he gets water thrown at him, gets called "F***king Traitor, Treacherous ****, etc"

Welcome to Farage's Britain ..

Re: Brexit
 

Another terrible example:

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/statu...64628081696768

Re: Brexit
 

All that was started and promoted by REMAIN.
May 2016
May 2013

Re: Brexit
 

The ERG has not been blocking Brexit, it has been blocking Brino.

---------- Post added at 14:45 ---------- Previous post was at 14:43 ----------

I wouldn't condone that, but people who are not democratic cannot expect an easy ride in this country when they spout forth.

Re: Brexit
 

Why was he at a Brexit rally, was he looking to provoke people?

Re: Brexit
 

Ex pats in France have been complaining that their EU election postal votes have arrived too late for them to vote. Apparently, it's because some local authorities in the UK sent them via the Netherlands because it's cheaper to do so.

Could it be a possibility that this could be used to declare the results to be invalid?

I'm not sure why they can't let them arrive late in the circumstances as they aren't usually counted on the day of election itself, last time our EU votes weren't being counted until the following Sunday. Perhaps it's something to do with electoral law ie all postal votes must be received on or before election day itself??

Re: Brexit
 

Strange post. Doubt it's possible to prove who started it but the main thing is to condemn it regardless of which viewpoints are held.

Re: Brexit
 

Sort of sums up where we are now :(

All you can comment on is why is someone wanting to engage in civil debate.You are not interested in what they did or what they said to him.

---------- Post added at 15:16 ---------- Previous post was at 15:11 ----------

There is no mandate for No Deal I am afraid. The official Leave campaign did not endorse or promote No Deal in 2016.

Now, if you want to present this new plan to the people, then I am in 100% agreement with you.

Re: Brexit
 

Strange you only example a remainer, sort of sums up where we are.

Re: Brexit
 

Do you have examples of this? I do see the examples of Ireland and Denmark being used by others but the got the opt outs/changes they wanted such as;

Denmark Maastricht Treaty - Economic and Monetary Union, Union Citizenship, Justice and Home Affairs, and Common Defence

Ireland Treaty of Nice - exclusion of common defence

Ireland Lisbon Treaty - numbers of Commissioners, common defence and abortion rights

So in each case where a referendum was run again, the situation was different. There have been other referendums where a 'no' has stopped the process altogether (see 2005 European Constitution referendums in France and Netherlands)

However, it possible I have missed something...

Re: Brexit
 

Examples are not necessary. This is folklore now.

---------- Post added at 15:32 ---------- Previous post was at 15:30 ----------

Show me an example of the reverse where people asking to debate the issues are called "Treacherous ****" and worse and I will be more than happy to condemn it.

I just ask you to do the same. Over to you ..

Re: Brexit
 

It’s a commonly used tactic, go onto you tube and see infowars or similar where American conservatives attend Leftist anti-trump rallies.

And see how the “American Liberal Left” react to someone with a different opinion wanting to engage in civil debate.

No one can claim moral superiority in this type of thing.

I would be quite happy for the question of deal or no deal be put to the public, then we’ll see if there is a mandate or not. There’s certainly no mandate in parliament, but as we know parliament is not representative of the people.

Re: Brexit
 

The referendum simply gave HMG a mandate to take us out of the EU. The idea that it mandated any specific way of doing that is just remainer wishful thinking.

None of the Leave campaigns represented either government or official opposition. The official status of one leave campaign was a legal device designed to regulate funding and access to TV airtime. It did not designate their campaign material as a kind of quasi-manifesto.

You may feel the whole thing was appallingly sloppy and unfair but it was legal, and the result - a simple, naked mandate to leave the EU - was valid.

I’m afraid that arguments based on the exact nature of the mandate granted in 2016, great as they may sound, are not valid.

Re: Brexit
 

A BREXIT supporter died just hours after he was beaten and threatened by a Remain-backing neighbour in a row over the result of the EU referendum.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/197982...eu-referendum/

Re: Brexit
 

What, you think Remainers are the only ones that get abused, by evil right wing Brexiteers?

You don’t think Brexiteers get abused?

https://mobile.twitter.com/leaveeuof...784?lang=en-gb

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10...er-Tom-Harwood

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7362956.html

Again, there is nothing moral high ground for either side to claim

Re: Brexit
 

By the same logic it mandated no specific way to leave the EU. Leave with no deal being the default is the leave voters wishful thinking.

When you can show me explicitly where on the ballot paper it said leave the EU with a completely clean break THEN you have a point.

You voted the options on the ballot paper.

what you were told, and what were on the ballot paper were two differing offerings.

Re: Brexit
 

Spot on.

Re: Brexit
 

Errr ... no. I have never claimed the result of the referendum mandated leaving with no deal. However, actions subsequently taken by parliament have created a legal situation where we leave by default without a deal if Brexit Day passes without one having been ratified.

I would rather we left the EU with transitional arrangements (a “deal”) in place, but above all I fully expect the instructions of the British electorate given in 2016 to be enacted. The lack of a deal cannot be used to thwart the referendum result by the back door.

Re: Brexit
 

Very true! Up there with bendy bananas, etc

Synonyms of folklore
legend, legendry, lore, myth, mythology, mythos, tradition

Re: Brexit
 

Nonsense. We voted for Brexit, not Brino.

---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:38 ----------

You can bend with the bananas if you want to. Brexiteers are not for bending. :D

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

It's also wishful thinking by some Leavers who feel that Parliament should read their minds in terms of the type of exit.

Re: Brexit
 

Only remainers believe that, Andrew. Give us a break!

I'd be interested to hear from you how you expect us to forge new trade deals independently if we remain in the Customs Union.

Re: Brexit
 

This is your interpretation which you are entitled to. However, the flawed referendum has to be assessed on what was promised and not what all the possible, mathematical permutations may be.

You wish to Leave so you are happy to abandon the principles at stake here. For many, the actions should follow what was discussed & promised. Not what was not discussed and not promised. To do so would devalue the already devalued currency of trust in politicians.

I understand your "Brexit at all costs" approach to this but for the majority of the country, this is not the desired path ..

Re: Brexit
 

So why when people were offered a choice on which sort of Brexit, we ended up with a hung parliament? If the version planned by May was preferred, she would have romped home.

Surely it is better that a government at least attempts to bring the country together, rather than ignore half the voters.

Re: Brexit
 

Your point? Everyone on this forum would condemn this behaviour outright.

Of course, the irony here is that you highlight the kind of hate and division this whole grubby project has emboldened and validated.

Re: Brexit
 

How do you figure that?

General elections are fought on a range of issues, but if there’s one particular thing that lost it for the Tories it was May’s disastrous campaign in which she promised to take her core vote’s life savings off them.

Both main parties pledged to implement Brexit; beyond that headline I sincerely doubt whether most voters paid much attention to the details of how they proposed to implement it. However, it was emphatically not Labour’s policy to hold a second referendum prior to us leaving. That they have tried to make that a precondition of supporting the Brexit bill is a betrayal of their manifesto and those who voted for them.

Re: Brexit
 

Lets not pigeon hole all remainers please!!!!

Re: Brexit
 

Just to remind you that said Tory Manifesto pledges:

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/c...sperous....pdf

I say again, no mandate for No Deal ..

Re: Brexit
 

That’s what May tried to do and ended up pleasing no one. You can’t please everyone, some people will have to lump it. During this exercise you have to remember what side actually won.

---------- Post added at 19:11 ---------- Previous post was at 19:09 ----------

You can have a smooth orderly no deal, if you plan for it.

Re: Brexit
 

Gosh, you’re sounding desperate now.

May has demonstrably tried to deliver on that. However as she doesn’t have a Commons majority her options are limited. This is still fairly novel to us with our Westminster voting system and its tendency to deliver majority governments that are then solely responsible for whether or not their manifesto is delivered. It is however pretty routine in European countries where coalitions and confidence arrangements are the norm and manifesto delivery is always down to the art of the possible. That’s the scenario we are now in, and the only question we can ask is whether parties are trying to live up to their manifesto, not whether they actually do it.

I appreciate your need to grasp at any straw that might, just possibly, de-legitimise a No-Deal scenario but ultimately Parliament has already ruined your hopes by legislating in a way that makes that scenario the default.

Re: Brexit
 

Therefore one has to ask, what version of Brexit did ALL 17.4 million leave voters want? Only now are the Brexit Ltd voters choosing the "No Deal" option.

Firm believers in Brexit claim to know what they wanted. That still leaves a lot of leave voters who may not want that Hard Brexit so favoured by disaster capitalists.

Re: Brexit
 

Andrea Leadsom resigns as Commons leader.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48374098

Re: Brexit
 

Brexit voters overwhelmingly wanted a leave deal and voted for the Conservative and Labour parties who both said they would get one. If they had wanted no deal they would have voted for UKIP.

Re: Brexit
 

All 17.4 million leave voters voted to LEAVE ~ not have a second referendum to overturn the vote nor to accept a deal which doesn't result in us leaving. Let's stop fiddling around at the edges and get on with leaving and, if no deal is the only realistic option, let's grab it enthusiastically with both hands and make a great success of it.

Re: Brexit
 

Some of the main points from Andrea Leadsoms resignation statement.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

A majority in the country voted to leave. Then an even bigger majority in the country voted for the parties who wanted to leave with a deal. Not for the no-deal Ukip or remain LibDems. They voted overwhelmingly for the leave-with-a-deal Conservative and Labour parties

Why should the last democratic vote in the country should be disrespected by the losers?

Re: Brexit
 

For crying out loud, why are we going over old ground about why people voted for Brexit, I’m sick of it and it’s the same people (mostly the we want a second referendum Remainers) Pack it in. :nono:

Re: Brexit
 

I totally agree, I voted Remain, but I think all leavers would want an agreement that took us out of it the EU and all it’s institutions and which laid out a great new relationship with the EU based on trade and close cooperation on a whole raft of issues but with no political influence over U.K. affairs. Everyone would want that.

But that’s not on offer, the EU do not want to give us a deal of that nature, so if we can’t the great deal we want what do we do? We didn’t vote for Brexit on the condition that we got a deal.

We would all love the the right deal, but if no such deal is on offer, the default has to be to leave without a deal and negotiate our relationship from outside the EU.

---------- Post added at 20:54 ---------- Previous post was at 20:52 ----------

3 & 4 are pretty telling

Re: Brexit
 

Absolutely..

Re: Brexit
 

I don't want a second referendum. I accept the result and have consistently done so. If someone talks of respecting the referendum result and ignores the most recent one it should be pointed out. I agree largely with Pierre except the default should not be no-deal.

Re: Brexit
 

I always find it odd that they can resign and leave their position straight away, whilst in the real world those resigning have to give notice.

Re: Brexit
 

She's always struck me as one of the more talentless in the Cabinet. But there is a lot of competition, Grayling ahead with all the others close behind....

Re: Brexit
 

As was pointed out on various media outlets, everybody launches a leadership bid, so when an actual decent candidate emerges a they can then end their bids and support said candidate in return for a nice top cabinet position.

Re: Brexit
 

In my book, Gove and Hammond sit at one end and Grayling and May the other with the latter two battling for the throne of most incompetent. The rest slot in between them. I judge the Cabinet here on their competence, not their political beliefs.

Re: Brexit
 

Not desperate, just honesty. Something, you are fast losing a grasp of.

BAAC* it is then ... :)

*Brexit At All Costs

Re: Brexit
 

You have not been honest once, just displaying your tantrums and stamping your feet because your side lost a legitimate, democratic referendum. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

You have drawn the wrong conclusion. Whether voters wanted a deal or not is subjective. Some, like me, were quite happy with a transitional arrangement leading to a trade deal.

But what you are missing is that the majority of the electorate voted to leave.

Given that a deal with the EU on terms Parliament is prepared to accept is not available, the default is no deal. But it is Brexit, which none of the alternatives offer.

---------- Post added at 07:45 ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 ----------

Very interesting, Andrew. And how do you judge the Shadow Cabinet?

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Au contraire (to use posh french words :) ), I have been honest and consistent since day 1. The referendum is illegitimate and undemocratic for a variety of reasons (long since stated and repeated).

You just disagree which is your right.

Re: Brexit
 

Surprised the hell out of the people in the polling station by turning up a couple of minutes after 7 to vote :tu: ALDE is probably the political party in the European Parliament that most closely reflects my views so I voted appropriately

Re: Brexit
 

You voted for a cut-price German supermarket?

Re: Brexit
 

I feel pretty sure you can get help for your obsession, have you considered a holiday somewhere secluded .

---------- Post added at 09:57 ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 ----------

Any hoo just been to vote, huge ballot paper many candidates to choose from but thankfully someone had the good sense to put a big arrow next to the correct box :tu:;)

---------- Post added at 09:59 ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 ----------

I shop there every week, don't knock it ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Time for a walk up to the polling station.

Re: Brexit
 

It will be very interesting to see what the voter turn out is, for a process that is usually in the low £30% bracket.

Re: Brexit
 

I was the only voter in the polling station when i wen't at 9:30

Re: Brexit
 

We voted first thing, several other people there, also a very long ballot paper. No party hacks in the entrace hallway, pity, I would have told the Tory to get rid of that bloody woman PDQ.:D

Re: Brexit
 

There were none in my polling station as l voted 10 days ago at home.;)

Re: Brexit
 

Ho ho, very good!

Quick cut out and keep guide to what each group stands for here - https://europarlamentti.info/en/elec...itical-groups/

Re: Brexit
 

I’m more than disagreeing, I’m telling you to stop lying in this thread which means you haven’t been honest at all and continue to throwing the toys out of the pram and spouting baseless rubbish.

The referendum in 2016 was legitimate and totally democratic-end of.

Re: Brexit
 

Sky news reporting MV is cancelled.

Re: Brexit
 

Pretty inevitable given she is about to lose her job..

Re: Brexit
 

If so, I'm assuming that's May resigning today/tomorrow ?

Re: Brexit
 

Not sure what's going on ,nothing on web yet.

Re: Brexit
 

There's a lot of learned people who think if the referendum wasn't advisory it would've gone to court and been dismissed and imo that wouldn't have been a bad thing as it would've then led to the dishonest people getting their comeuppance, they've not gone away, they're still there waiting to do it all over again and who in their right mind would want campaigns like those referendum ones repeated, no one with a genuine care for democracy that's for sure

Re: Brexit
 

I flipped sky news on in the office, can't see anything there

---------- Post added at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 ----------

Bill delayed not cancelled according to BBC news channel ticker

Re: Brexit
 

I was the only one at 10.30.

---------- Post added at 12:05 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------

Rumour has it there will be an announcement tomorrow.