Re: Brexit
 

We still have a party with minority support leading us out of the EU. Not enough people voted for the Tories to give them a working majority.

So please explain who this majority are? There are still a significant number of remainer MPs on both sides of the house including the Prime Minister. Why did they not lose their seats if people are so happy with Brexit?

Re: Brexit
 

Don't quit know what you expect to happen on the 29th March ! Except life may become gradually more difficult and exspensive and Champers might be hard to import ;)

Re: Brexit
 

I have a boat tell me what you need and i'll make it happen ,taking things off French beaches is all part of the Dunkirk spirit ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Mick has a point. If people couldn’t be arsed to vote in the Referendum then bleating about the result and calling for another one is out of order.

I have a completely open mind to various directions. If we stay, as you know, I want to see us using picador sticks whenever they get silly.

My view hasn’t changed that the currently constituted EU is an awful hegemonist institution and I will be glad to leave.

That said, Cameron’s reforms, such as they were, would have been an improvement on status quo ante.

Re: Brexit
 

All the new voters since 2016 could not vote as they were not old enough. Yet they will have to live longest with the decision, so have every right to complain.

Re: Brexit
 

Well I'm not a wine or beer drinker, and the spirit I'll be into will be one of my 14 bottles of small batch Vodka.

Re: Brexit
 

No they have not.

Hey guess what - I have no plans on dying yet and I consider myself still young, thank you very much.

How many avenues are you going to pluck weak arguments from ?

I was too young to vote in the 80's and part of the 90's, can we redo these elections in these years going off your bizarre logic ?

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Doesn't stop anyone from having an opinion or a grievance. Just seems like the staunch Leavers want to silence everyone who disagrees with them.

Well hey, the opposition are not going to oblige.

Just as the likes of UKIP would not have shut up had remain won on a similar margin.

We still have relatively free speech in this country, where citizens are allowed to question government decisions. Dissent is not going to go away.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

This has nothing to do with silencing anybody - the people had a say, en masse, in 2016 and again in 2017, they decided they want to leave the EU.

Dissent is cured by means of a Democracy, where people can choose freely to vote on issues at hand, we do not live in a dictatorship, but you want us to live in one, where democratic results are overturned by repetitive referendums because a minority disagree with the decision of the first.

Re: Brexit
 

A referendum on EU membership is a bit different from an election as an election it changes things more profoundly.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

In a general election we know in five years time (or whenever otherwise agreed) we get to vote for a different party.

With a general election there is one part of the country where none of the main UK parties stand for election.

Whilst 2 others have special local only parties. All of these mean consensus is unlikely, a majority of the electorate choosing one party to govern even more remote, so we end up with minority governments dictating because they hit the magic number of seats.

The EU ref was a three way option - In - out - or not vote at all and a decision with consequences far reaching beyond the next 5 years. So people will continue to discuss, worry and complain.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

A Referendum is a once in a lifetime event. As it should be. We don’t keep having the same Referendum because the losers side didn’t like the result of the first.

Re: Brexit
 

That's exactly what Nigel Farage suggested if he lost 48-52!

---------- Post added at 08:41 ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 ----------

No one is suggesting we keep having the same referendum.

Re: Brexit
 

Exactly, and if a party puts in its manifesto that it will re-join the EU, you can vote for them then.

---------- Post added at 08:50 ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 ----------

What are you suggesting then?

Re: Brexit
 

Yes, they most certainly are Andrew. Anything which gives the losing side a chance to vote again and again and again, until they get what they want.

One vote is all that was required and the decision taken was to leave the EU and that is exactly what is and should be happening.

Re: Brexit
 

I didn't say the poll was fake news. I said it was contrived to produce the result they wanted.

Choose any subject and ask the public to put a number on it and it will make that public look stupid, because unless they study the subject intently, people are bound to get it wrong.

However, considering the Angua principle, it would appear that your mind is closed to any pro-Brexit article or response, despite this option having been selected by the British electorate.

Not very democratic of you, old chap.

---------- Post added at 09:25 ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 ----------

So, once again we come back to this desire to see choices given to the public on the kind of Brexit they want. What's that, then?

I'll tell you. It's between whether we run with the best deal Theresa May can get with the EU or it's a Brexit with no deal.

Given that a Brexit with no deal is not what you want and will not resolve your precious Northern Ireland/Republic of Ireland border issue, I would have thought that you would have abandoned that wish to give the electorate another say, Andrew. If you want to believe the media take on this, nobody likes the Chequers arrangement and we'd get a 'hard Brexit' (or just Brexit, pure and simple), however you want to look at it.

Why would you be advocating a vote when the public is unlikely to go for the EU deal? I think it's time you re-thought this, because you're starting to unravel. :eek:

Re: Brexit
 

Mmmmm ... *thinks* do I reply with the same childlike name calling or try and debate like adult *thinks*

Ok, let's try the grown up route (again): you are so wrong on this count. Trying to equate a supposed once-a-generation referendum with a 5 yearly General Election is just daft. You are comparing apples with oranges and saying they are the same.

There is large part of this country who believe that a vote run by Criminals, lead by Liars and Political Charlatans, based on deceit & misinformation needs validating in light of the reality only now being faced by the country.

Re: Brexit
 

Crikey, I've never heard Dave Camerons lot be described like that before :p:

Re: Brexit
 

You've heard of Spreadsheet Phil? Have you not heard of Cameron's mate -Spread lies Boris? ;)

Re: Brexit
 

[QUOTE=ianch99;35968463]Mmmmm ... *thinks* do I reply with the same childlike name calling or try and debate like adult *thinks*

Ok, let's try the grown up route (again): you are so wrong on this count. Trying to equate a supposed once-a-generation referendum with a 5 yearly General Election is just daft. You are comparing apples with oranges and saying they are the same.

<SNIP>
QUOTE]

No I'm not. At the centre of this lies the electorate - be it Referendum or Election. They'll grumble and whinge whenever they want to.

Re: Brexit
 

Nice bit of grown up name calling there.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Old Boy, you can't pretend that everything you disagree with is a conspiracy to make Brexit look like bad news!
You must get your head out of the Reddit sand and accept that the world isn't some kind of George Soros globalist plot and accept that independent analysis is just that. Your mind seems to be entirely shut to the possibility that our civil servants and academics are actually doing their jobs properly!

Re: Brexit
 

Andrew, you seem to place a great deal of trust and faith in polls & analysis carried out by civil servants, academics, and independent polling companies.

I wonder if your cats eat Whiskers (9 out of 10 prefer it), and your wife (or partner) uses the anti wrinkle cream that 47 of the 61 people polled say actually makes them look younger.

I also doubt you have 2.4 children :D ;)

I'm sure that the people behind these things believe the results achieved, otherwise there would be no point to them.

PS, apparently in the next 50 years or so my house could be under 6ft of water (global warming) but up to now I have refrained from building an Ark :p:

Re: Brexit
 

Well done, you’ve finally understood.

Mmmmmm *thinks* should I reply to that spew of verbal diarrhoea * thinks*

Nope, there’s nothing intelligent enough in there to reply to.

Re: Brexit
 

The intelligent approach is to look at the purpose of the research. If it's independent advice to the government on scenario-planning then I put weight on it, for sure. If it's outpurt from academic specialists which studies this area then yes.
If it's something to sell consumer goods then I put my professional sceptic hat on.
It's knowing when to wear which hat which is important and not wearing one hat all the time.

Re: Brexit
 

I have but you clearly have not.

It is the blind, Brexit at all costs attitude like yours that is making the country a laughing stock.

Re: Brexit
 

What do you do about goods coming in and out of Ireland (and the EU) if there is no border and we're not in a Customs Union?

Re: Brexit
 

I'm sorry they are fundamentally different and always will be.

Re: Brexit
 

There is no Brexit at all costs attitude.

There is just Brexit. There has always just been Brexit.

We’ve had, Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, Jobs First Brexit, you name it. But sticking any prefix or suffix to the word to try and make it something that you can to shape to a meaning you can live with, is pointless.

As May said from the outset. Brexit is Brexit.

---------- Post added at 12:50 ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 ----------

That’s right, one is once in a generation, we just did it, our Kids can have the next one.

Re: Brexit
 

You have my point far better than I could have. Thank you ...

Oh yes, the generation that overwhelmingly do not want it.

As John Major says:

Re: Brexit
 

There is a large part of what again ?

How do you know this - asked all the country have you ?

It's utter rubbish.

You're a hypocrite accusing folk of deceit when you, is trying to engage in deceit yourself, by engaging in this fallacy, that by telling the rest of us that the country needs some kind of validation - no it does not, nor has it asked for it!

The country was asked once in 2016 and it responded, it decided to leave the EU, despite the LIES on both sides, yes both sides of the campaigns, it's all one sided rubbish with "some" of you Remainers, conveniently forgetting the lies told also from the Remain camp, they played the same rules of deceit, so don't come that rubbish about it being on just the leave side only, it was not!

The country was asked again, kind of, via the Snap Election in 2017, 80% of the electorate decided to go for Parties that committed to honouring the decision to leave the EU. Several parties went on the assertion that they would reverse brexit or hold a second vote on leaving the EU, these parties failed miserably to muster up the "will" to stay in the EU.

The decision does not need validating via a losers vote being requested by a minority and that is exactly what this is! :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

Actually, IIRC, Labour hadn't officially committed to either Brexit or Remain at the election, merely stating they required 6 conditions to be met to allow Brexit to go ahead. So, you actually had one party that stated it was behind brexit, and one that was not clear on whether it was or not (and is still really evading that question, although we all know they support Brexit). As for the other parties, IMO, our political system makes it difficult for smaller parties to prosper in general elections. That said, the Liberal Democrats have done well from time to time in previous elections.


And surely if *either* side lied, that should be enough to call the result of the referendum into question?

Re: Brexit
 

Quite the contrary, I am open to discussing pro-Brexit articles. Please can you share some authoritative articles and we can see what evidence and information they base their conclusions on.

About the democratic bit: your certainty is predicated on the assumption that your beliefs and wishes are correct and there is no possibility of you being wrong.

Well I am sorry to disappoint. History is littered with cases where democracies have been duped into making what, retrospectively, would now be considered the wrong choice. For example, only yesterday, Brazil elected a far right candidate who:

Jair Bolsonaro: Far-right candidate wins Brazil poll

Democratic ... yes, certainly. Desirable, certainly not.

Re: Brexit
 

he achieved 55.13% compared to 44.87% achieved by his opponent.
Democratic.... yes,certainly. Desirable 55.13% say it certainly is for them.

Re: Brexit
 

Labour had the tests yes, but first and foremost they said the referendum result must be honoured.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39665835

Nobody knows what their position is now, least of all them

---------- Post added at 16:46 ---------- Previous post was at 16:42 ----------

But the beauty of a Democracy is the freedom to make mistakes. Not that I’m saying Brexit is a mistake, only time will tell.

I’d rather live in a country that has the power to vote in, and out, far right candidates, than one that didn’t.

Re: Brexit
 

Brexit aside the Brazil result is quite worrying and it's a good thing about the UK that these people find it so hard to get anywhere.

Re: Brexit
 

Christ, Ian, you are describing the general poulation!

I hope you are perfect.

Re: Brexit
 

Far from it but at least I don't try and change the political and economic future of an entire country of 60+ million people without a plan!

---------- Post added at 17:38 ---------- Previous post was at 17:34 ----------

On this we agree. Democracy is based on informed consent. Now we are close to being informed, we should consent.

Re: Brexit
 

How do you forge trade deals if you are in the Customs Union?

---------- Post added at 18:22 ---------- Previous post was at 18:16 ----------

You seem to position yourself on the opposite side of every democratic vote.

That says a lot about your opinions, which seem to be against what the majority think. Not surprising really, looking at your posts.

---------- Post added at 18:24 ---------- Previous post was at 18:22 ----------

Once again, the choice is between the EU deal that we get and a hard Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

What majority is this? :dunce:

I have explained my reasoning about your "democratic vote" ..

---------- Post added at 19:27 ---------- Previous post was at 19:25 ----------

You forgot the Remain option :)

Re: Brexit
 

Quite worrying seeing these bunch of extremists being let off as "the will of the people" by other forum contributors.

But back to Brexit. Very worrying to see that the UK has only rolled over 14 of the 236 international treaties that the EU has signed with countries around the world. Perturbing if Britain leaves the EU without a deal.
These 236 treaties cover key issues beyond trade eg airlines’ take-off and landing rights at overseas airports, as well as industries like nuclear power, financial services and fisheries.

Here's how a foreign country might well react:
"I have a treaty with the EU. Now the UK wants a separate treaty with me on the same terms. Doh! My country made many concessions to the EU because of its massive single market. Why should I make the same concessions to the UK which is a fraction of the size of the EU's? Especially when other similarly-sized countries would then ask me for the same deal.
Nope, it's the UK's turn to offer me some concessions over and above the EU deal. Some of the concessions the UK needs to make are far more work permits for IT programmers from my country, visa-free travel for tourists visiting the UK and relaxing of financial reporting and maybe a ten-year freeze on the minimum wage? How about it Liam?"

Re: Brexit
 

I thought the people’s vote was no t reverse the referendum but vote on how we leave?


Cue Candi Lauper, “ True colours”

Re: Brexit
 

More like: Simple Minds "Promised You A Miracle"

Here's some bedtime reading for you:

Our 'Roadmap to a People's Vote' report lays out exactly how we can achieve a People's Vote.

Re: Brexit
 

Errr, but it is. They’re not being let off but if they want to elect Satan himself that’s they’re right. I can see the Democracy you want to live in.....doesn’t look much like a democracy though. But now at least I fully understand that you don’t care about Democracy, which is ........quite worrying.


. But these would be sorted out duration the transition?

All we’re negotiating now is the withdrawal, we’re not expected to have everything sorted out in 5 months, far from it. I thought as a well informed person on the subject you would know this?
I don’t know you as person, but you portray yourself, on herevat least, as one deluded individual.

Re: Brexit
 

Why thank you, very kind. Must be the excessive drinking ..

Re: Brexit
 

Well don’t drink so much then.

Re: Brexit
 

I don't, I keep spilling most of it :)

Re: Brexit
 

And on a scale of 1 - infinity, how deceitful is this now ?

Sick of the bullshit hypocrisy in this thread by a few of the Remainers. Accusations of deceit of Brexit campaigners from them and yet here we have the same accusers, engaging in deceit. Pathetic.

Re: Brexit
 

They're being let off because they were not disqualified from being elected! Letting politicians off the hook with a terrible track record in human rights weakens democracy.
But if we adopt such a laissez-faire attitude to good governance, then it's natural to look the other way at the dark money and troll farms that contributed - in what way we don't know - to the Brexit outcome.
(I accept that many on this forum will say they're not influenced by advertising or social media.)

Re: Brexit
 

What deceit?

Re: Brexit
 

Square that circle?

Re: Brexit
 

I think it's commonly accepted that the Government's 2016 pamphlet portrayed a very worst-case scenario and that some of the Leavers like Liam "easiest deal ever" were economical with the truth.
I've not seen on this forum posted by those who voted remain (like me, denphone, Damien, Hugh, Mr K, ianch99, Angua, etc) that makes any of us deceitful. Irritating? Doubtless ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

I'm not sure what's going on here. The post attributed to me is one of ian's.

Re: Brexit
 

Quote taken from the Foreword of the linked article (PDF) . .

"Our conclusions are that the die is not irrevocably cast, there is still time and, until the UK has left the EU, the Article 50 letter can be withdrawn."

Further on it goes on to say if Article 50 is withdrawn, we will stay in the EU as things were . . . until such time as . . *yawn* you guessed it.

Doesn't sound like a 'peoples vote on the deal we get' to me, it looks suspiciously like 'Vote to remain in the EU' :p:

Next . .

Re: Brexit
 

Me neither.

Re: Brexit
 

Who are you asking?

---------- Post added at 07:20 ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 ----------

Nor me

---------- Post added at 07:22 ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 ----------

You forget to say how this is done?

Re: Brexit
 

Whatever the majority agreed, but with a far more realistic idea of the outcome, rather than blaming the EU for things the UK has control over.

Re: Brexit
 

No, I didn't. There is no 'remain' option as we have already voted on this. Theresa May has made this clear on many occasions.

So any decision to give us another vote will simply be the EU deal achieved or hard Brexit.

Be careful what you wish for.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Point I was making was that you insist the people’s vote was not to thwart the result of the referendum ........Ianch99 didn't get the memo.

Re: Brexit
 

No need for memo's. Save paper, just look at the People's Vote website ..

Re: Brexit
 

The EU could so easily accommodate our customs controls by technology preference just by not saying no. It’s as much in their interests as ours and during transition we could jointly develop this - perhaps as a variation to the Estonian (or is it Latvian) technology solution on the Russian border. Random sampling would reveal abuses so that countermeasures can be applied.

But that awful hegemonist EU prefers to say no to anything of mutual benefit. remember:

1. The EC wants to be federal masters;
2. The European Parliament wants to trump national parliaments;
3. Germany wants to call all the shots;
4. The French running dogs of the Germans want to punish us;
5. The perfidious Irish aren’t interested in the GFA, only trade across the borders.

There is no ethical basis for wanting to be tied into that lot. The Remainers on this thread have never been able to properly refute my enumerated points. The 17 million who voted for Brexit included much of the above in their thinking - not just immigration.

Incidentally, I’ve never been against European immigration. I entirely blame all UK governments for not ensuring a housing supply and NHS capacity to match the tax paying influx.

Re: Brexit
 

I don't think we should be working ourselves into a lather about the NI border. If the EU means what it says, it is going to have to accept the UK's proposals for a solution in the withdrawal arrangements, come up with an alternative or get a no deal, which means a hard border for NI.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Re: Brexit
 

Considering you seem to think Germany inherently want to run everything and the Irish can't be trusted I suspect this isn't the case.

Re: Brexit
 

If we are "independent" surely it's up to us what tariffs and limits to apply on what comes in. We could simply say we won't limit or put tariffs on goods or crossing from EU.

If the EU want to apply limits on what comes from us that's up to them, we could apply tariffs if "they" do.

We could allow travellers from EU to carry goods as we currently do, we could keep a blue channel for UK and EU passports.

Hey if Trump does what he likes to limit trade we can to expedite it.

Yes there likely does need to be controls on stuff going into the EU so the world can't shuffle junk via us but that's up to EU as it currently is - asymetric border in Ireland - anything in, controls out ?!

Basically we want to control our borders so lets do just that. It's part of what Brexit is about.

Re: Brexit
 

Under WTO rules if you do this in the absence of a trade deal or multilateral deal then you have to give the same status to other nations/blocs so pretty much anyone could flood the UK with cheap/tacky crap.

Re: Brexit
 

We're a few years late in putting a halt to that ;)

Re: Brexit
 

At least we currently do not have hormone riddled beef and old slimy chicken chlorine washed to remove this.

Re: Brexit
 

Or as i like to call it your xmas gift;)

Re: Brexit
 

Plenty of cheap tacky products all around us.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Nobody would be forcing you to eat it even if it was available in our shops.

The Yanks seem to do all right on it.

Re: Brexit
 

And they can keep it as l personally would pay a little bit more for something where l knew where it was coming from.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

It's coming from cattle and chickens, Den.:D

Re: Brexit
 

It's used when poultry is kept in poor, intensive battery farm conditions. For that reason, I'm out as I'm a strong believer in good animal welfare.

---------- Post added at 20:22 ---------- Previous post was at 20:21 ----------

Enough about my posts, Den. :D

---------- Post added at 20:33 ---------- Previous post was at 20:22 ----------

I do hope they're wrong about this but hopefully MPs won't be daft enough to countenance no-deal anyway.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...sion-warns-sp/

Re: Brexit
 

I would eat it i don't see the problem given my tap water tastes like Domestos because guess what's in it.

Re: Brexit
 

As chlorine washing is a process, you would never know to be able to choose to avoid it.

Re: Brexit
 

That would be obvious from looking at the country of origin on the label.

And if you would not know the difference, as you claim, this rather takes away the argument against chlorinated chicken.

It may be possible to insist on standards of care in any trade deal negotiated, which I think is the real issue here. The quality of a product that is covered by a trade deal can be specified, and I think that should be explored.

Re: Brexit
 

Difficult/impossible when in pre-cooked meals, take-aways, cafes, restaurants or someone else's house!

Re: Brexit
 

Just add, the conclusion from this article was that there *is* an EU ban on poultry treated with chlorinated water:

The latest update I could find on the EU Ban is this:

Chlorinated chicken: possible end to import ban meets opposition

Re: Brexit
 

woo hooo

https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...J9XAT85WC240hQ


100,000;)

Re: Brexit
 

woo hooo

https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may...on-brexit-deal

1,024,778 have signed.

Re: Brexit
 

bless

Re: Brexit
 

Same debate either way.

Re: Brexit
 

Well there is this one at over 200,000 signatures.

Re: Brexit
 

OK

In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti...

hth

Re: Brexit
 

Which was a waste of time as it changed nothing.

Re: Brexit
 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...J9XAT85WC240hQ

102,000 now ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Got a bit of catch up to get to a million though....

107,000 have signed the petition to stop MPs getting subsidised food and drink - a far more worthy cause :tu:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/208776

Re: Brexit
 

Mhmm. Hands up who thinks any of these petitions are going to affect the progress of Brexit in any way, shape or form ...

Re: Brexit
 

No, it's going to be a total balls up without a doubt. They don't need help from petitions.

Re: Brexit
 

Petitions won't change anything that is for sure.

Re: Brexit
 

both petitions are totally pointless