Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35940975)

Typical of the corrupt EU telling us what we can do, in our own god damn waters. NO DEAL!

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35940986)

. . . and while we're at it, they can keep their damn snow too. They keep sending us the stuff knowing how much it disrupts the country :D

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35940987)

I'm off to a much warmer welcoming part of the EU for a couple of weeks :)

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35940995)

I love my Fish & chips, much healthier and satisfying than a Macdonalds :)

Shame that families now prefer the latter for 'convenience'

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35940995)

I love my Fish & chips, much healthier and satisfying than a Macdonalds :)

Shame that families now prefer the latter for 'convenience'

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35940975)

Typical of the corrupt EU telling us what we can do, in our own god damn waters. NO DEAL!

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941039)

Britain has apparently conceded most issues at "supersonic speed" so good progress has been made but the Irish border remains a sticking point.

https://www.ft.com/content/81058592-...e-cc62a39d57a0

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941043)

We're getting there. And I don't think the border issues will be a problem in the end.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941044)

It certainly won't be if we take the same approach as we have all the other negotiating points, i.e. concede.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/i...exit-psjvwld8g

With the weight of the EU behind it, Ireland is in a very strong position to get its way.

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35941049)

and the Brextremists still think we in strong position it unbelievable

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941052)

If we were in a strong position, we wouldn't have conceded on areas such as the 21-month transition and fisheries. It's not that David Davis is a particularly poor negotiator, it's just that the EU holds all the cards.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941044)

It certainly won't be if we take the same approach as we have all the other negotiating points, i.e. concede

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35941068)

And if the ALL the EU states and parliament don't agree it, then it's all a load of hot air and we leave properly in a year. Which is what the country voted for in the first place.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941064)

Er, but isn't that what you wanted, Andrew? :D

What we want is a good trade and financial services deal, out of EU, out of single market, out of customs union.

If we achieve that, job done. The sky will not cave in.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941076)

I want what the 52% want according to 2018's YouGov polls. :D
A good trade deal is somewhat vague.
The EU has put a Canada-style free trade deal on the table which will involve lots of port delays and costs for manufacturing and won't solve the Irish border issue. Costs to manufacturing lead to fewer jobs in the long term.
Theresa May has accepted that there will be no financial services passporting so a deal on financial services is looking a no-no. Your wild dreams of an amazing deal are now as cold as the weather. Perhaps it's time to reconsider what's actually important. Is it more money for our depleted armed forces, roads, schools and NHS through the economic growth we will get from remaining in the EU with its ever-growing trade deals throughout the world? Or a box-ticking exercise to leave the EU and have continued austerity?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941078)

You're so funny, Andrew. Your doom laden post paints a picture that I most certainly do not recognise.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941081)

.. all of the above . .

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35941089)

. . . has been happening long before Brexit, or does your memory only go back as far as the referendum?

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941093)

No need to be sarcastic, let's politely disagree.

If we had the greater economic growth that we were due then the Chancellor could afford to relax his tight reign on spending. As it is, we won't. Greater costs from a weakened Pound are putting a squeeze on spending. This is manifesting itself in several ways including contributing to shop and restaurant closures.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43240996

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941093)

No need to be sarcastic, let's politely disagree.

If we had the greater economic growth that we were due then the Chancellor could afford to relax his tight reign on spending. As it is, we won't. Greater costs from a weakened Pound are putting a squeeze on spending. This is manifesting itself in several ways including contributing to shop and restaurant closures.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43240996

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35941099)

And rightly so. Because it’s not evidence. For it to be evidence, an event has to have occurred. Brexit has not happened yet, so there can be no evidence of any kind.

I know in your selfish reasons you want Brexit to fail Dave, but we managed before 1975, and we will again, without a corrupt and dirty expanding entity, deciding things for the country.

---------- Post added at 14:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:52 ----------



That weaker £ has now recovered by a lot. But nice try, trying to manipulate the facts, as always. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941093)

No need to be sarcastic, let's politely disagree.

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35941112)

Just checked the EUR GBP exchange rates. By what measure is a lot - https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?f...to=EUR&view=2Y

While we are on facts, is there evidence of systemic corruption by the European Union?

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35941112)

Just checked the EUR GBP exchange rates. By what measure is a lot - https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?f...to=EUR&view=2Y

Originally Posted by jonbxx

While we are on facts, is there evidence of systemic corruption by the European Union?

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35941116)

Indeed while there is corruption in the EU there is plenty in our own country unless one has blinkers on.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35941120)

We certainly live in no dictatorship that is for sure Mick but plenty of corruption is hidden with bribes and backhanders and plenty more pretty endemic once one scratches below the surface.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35941123)

Which surfaces to what entities ?

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35941125)

Institutions like the financial sector , politics , big businesses and plenty more besides..

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35941128)

Proof ?

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35941117)

You're another one who manipulates the facts as well, you knew very well I was talking about the £ vs the $. :rolleyes:



Yes, absolutely, remove the rose tinted EU glasses you are wearing, lots of it has been around for decades, I have no inclination of listing 40 years worth of it.

---------- Post added at 16:13 ---------- Previous post was at 16:08 ----------



No there is not plenty in our country at all. I am not saying it does not exist, but you make it sound we live in a dictatorship that bends all the rules and international laws and treaties, we do no such thing.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35941099)

And rightly so. Because it’s not evidence. For it to be evidence, an event has to have occurred. Brexit has not happened yet, so there can be no evidence of any kind.

I know in your selfish reasons you want Brexit to fail Dave, but we managed before 1975, and we will again, without a corrupt and dirty expanding entity, deciding things for the country.

That weaker £ has now recovered by a lot. But nice try, trying to manipulate the facts, as always. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35941120)

We certainly live in no dictatorship that is for sure Mick but plenty of corruption is hidden with bribes and backhanders and plenty more pretty endemic once one scratches below the surface.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35941189)

BREAKING: EU have agreed a draft treaty, an ‘Orderly Withdrawal’ from European Union transition period of 21 months which ends on New Year’s Day 2020.

Key points agreed:

1. Transition period will end on New Year's Day 2020
2. UK can sign but not implement third-country trade deals until then
3. Northern Ireland to have 'full regulatory alignment' as 'backstop'
4. EU citizens who arrive before 2021 get same rights as those after Brexit
5. Britain only able to 'consult' on fishing rule changes
6. Joint committee to be set up to arbitrate on transition disputes

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941190)

Looks like the 21-month transition period has been agreed. We have conceded on the Irish border and on accepting new EU legislation but not shaping it; Rees-Mogg's vassal state.
On the other hand, we can negotiate deals with third parties during this time. But most countries will only do so when they know what future relationship we will have with the EU.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941191)

Thank God we have more information on this now to stop all the wingeing from remainers that this is all going to lead to a disaster, with no agreement with the EU. This is better than I had hoped for from the EU at this stage.[

However, we need some hard negotiations on points 3 (NI alignment) 5 (fisheries). However, at last, the end of the tunnel is in sight.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941191)

I don't think we have conceded on the Irish border, Andrew, not at all. The 'regulatory alignment' is only a backstop if nothing else can be agreed, but as you know, the UK Government has alternative solutions which will be better than this. They have cited the Norway/Sweden border as an example of a frictionless border and they believe new technology can make it even better.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941191)

I am absolutely confident that we will not get ourselves in a position whereby we will become a 'vassal state'! Theresa May has ruled that out completely.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941195)

David Davis's approach of "Yes EU, how high do you want us to jump?" has paid off and we thankfully won't have a train wreck of no deal that Brextremists have been clamouring for. I suspect they will be the most unhappy about today's announcement; most people will be happy that disaster has been averted.

Britain's fishermen catches are primarily sold to the EU so nothing will change on that front if they want to continue doing so.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-a7954641.html

Ireland remains a problem as what the UK Government has agreed to as a backstop is unacceptable to the DUP so the hard negotiations are with the DUP and not the EU. In effect, the can has been kicked 21 months down the road on this issue. The salvation for Theresa May is that Northern Ireland DUP supporters are now better understanding the benefiits of the single market and customs union so the DUP may change its position over the next 21 months.


We have. If you read previous news items, you will see that this was a key issue with Ireland telling the UK that the UK had to acknowledge the back stop solution but the UK held out against this.
Norway and Sweden are both in the single market so this solution is a strange comparison. The only solution is the UK-DUP or Ireland backing down. No magical solutions exist or we would be hearing about them now.
https://flipchartfairytales.wordpres...der-disappear/


It's time to face the facts Old Boy. According to Rees-Mogg that's exactly where we will be during the transition period. "Under the time limited period, the UK will have to abide by all existing EU rules but will lose its say in the decision-making process."https://www.ft.com/content/493af6d6-2b53-11e8-9b4b-bc4b9f08f381

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35941209)

now that a Transition period had some agreements hopefully the ultra brexstremists and ultra remainers can calm down and let a common sense deal be done as they always had to be compromise on both sides

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35941210)

Indeed childish unintelligent name calling by those in this country who should know better Dave as all l wanted was a fair reasonable deal for all and to do that there has to be give and take and compromise on both sides.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941203)

In actual fact, the Brexiteers have welcomed this achievement, Andrew.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941226)

No one has said otherwise, Old Boy. Like you and other moderate Brexiters, i welcome it. The rest of your post ignores the reality of the vassal state we will be in post Brexit for a period of time. Stating Theresa May won't accept it is too late as she has signed it!;) You need to face up to the reality of the situation Old Boy. Pretending it's not been signed won't cut the mustard, be it French or English. ;)
The fisheries quotas won't alter if we want to sell our fish to the EU. They hold the trump cards and have linkled the two. So we will have to fit in with them if we want our fishermen to remain in business.
No amount of magic will solve the Irish border situation. The only solutions are concessions from the EU or UK/DUP. I see you've faced up to the reality that technology won't solve the situation and that some form of single market agreement might work and on this we agree. ;)

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941234)

Thank you for misrepresenting my views, Andrew. I can't believe you just said that.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941281)

Looks like I was right about the deal not going down well with the Brextremists!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...est-fishermen/

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35941318)

Jean Clause Juncker did indeed congratulate Putin on his re-election. As did the leaders of Germany, France, China, Italy, Saudi Arabia, India, Hungary and Turkey.

EU statement on the Salisbury attack by the way - http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pr...ury-attack/pdf

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35941320)

I must say the ballot box stuffing was exceptional .

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35941310)

The mad drunk, Juncker congratulates Putin on his re-election.... :erm:

https://twitter.com/JunckerEU/status/976061272293871616


I cannot quite believe he sent that arse licking letter. (Well, actually I can). It's a big "Up yours" to the British re recent Salisbury attack. :sick:

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35941318)

Jean Clause Juncker did indeed congratulate Putin on his re-election. As did the leaders of Germany, France, China, Italy, Saudi Arabia, India, Hungary and Turkey.

EU statement on the Salisbury attack by the way - http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pr...ury-attack/pdf

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35941334)

And the President of the USA...

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/20/trum...-election.html

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35941334)

And the President of the USA...

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/20/trum...-election.html

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941339)

Why am I not surprised?:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35941340)

No condemnation for other EU countries either, sucking up to Putin and congratulating him ?[

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35941340)

Not quite the Arse licking letter Juncker sent, which was my whole point, but you had to get a dig in to Trump didn't you ? :rolleyes:

We got all the crap going on in European Countries, that crap going on here in Salisbury, the issues with Crimea and you got Juncker wanting to work close together with Putin. :sick:

---------- Post added at 21:01 ---------- Previous post was at 21:00 ----------



No condemnation for other EU countries either, sucking up to Putin and congratulating him ?

---------- Post added at 21:26 ---------- Previous post was at 21:01 ----------

Republican Senator Lindsey Graham tweeted the correct way of congratulating Putin....



https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/...32315409305600

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35941347)

I think anyone from the West who congratulated Putin is a hypocrite, but especially when your own Intelligence Community and the bi-partisan Senate Intelligence Committee state that Russia interfered in the 2016 Election and are likely to try and interfere in the 2018 Mid-Term elections, it would appear you are congratulating someone who is actively trying to harm your country.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941345)

I think France took the right approach when Macron wished Mr Putin success in "modernising Russia", but urged Moscow to shed light on the "unacceptable" attempted assassination of an ex-spy in Britain. I'm disappointed if no one else did the same, particularly powerful people like Trump and Junker who both seem to have bottled it, wouldn't you agree?

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35941320)

I must say the ballot box stuffing was exceptional .

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941362)

Interesting conclusion from the FT. The paper correctly predicted the government would concede to the EU on a large number of points so this article carries some authority.

https://www.ft.com/content/440ad6fe-...b-bc4b9f08f381

Here's the link from the House of Commons that shows a technological or managerial solution is a non-starter, Q 305 onwards.
http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevi...ral/80035.html

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941421)

It is a combination of things, Andrew, 'not just one silver bullet', as was made clear in the session.

I note that once again, you have concentrated on the negatives and not picked up on the opportunities to make this work.

The problem with this session was that the politicians wers looking for simple solutions, but it was difficult for the witnesses to explain what could be done without knowing which way the negotiations would go.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35941469)

Not a great lover of Piers Morgan but he is certainly right on this.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941480)

I think we are letting emotion get the better of us.



I would rather the money that's extracted from me in taxation is spent wisely. If France can meet the specification more cheaply than British firms, so be it.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941480)

I think we are letting emotion get the better of us.

I would rather the money that's extracted from me in taxation is spent wisely. If France can meet the specification more cheaply than British firms, so be it.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35941482)

No l doubt think so OB as l would call it putting "our country first".

---------- Post added at 11:24 ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 ----------



Full of contradictions l see as usual..

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941485)

How so? What contradiction? If we are going to perform on the world stage, we need to be competitive.

However, I do find it amusing that people who want to embrace the EU don't want France to get this work! This cracks me up! :D

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941485)

You are beginning to sound like a certain Mr Trump, Den, and I never thought I'd say that to you!

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35941490)

Apparently the way these tenders work is those deciding aren't allowed to see who made the bids? In other words they may not have known it was a French company. You would hope so because it is a bit mad to make the passports blue as a symbol of taking back control whilst moving passport production to Europe.

That said I don't really care. If France gave the best bid then good for them. We let them run our nuclear power stations and the Germans run some of our trains.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941498)

'Taking back control' means making our own decisions, not doing everything ourselves. Brexit for me means trading freely with the rest of the world, as far as possible without tariffs. Some tariffs are fine if it stops countries flooding the market, although I would prefer quotas to resolve these issues.

Once you start dictating which countries are permitted to print your passports, you are engaging in unacceptable trade practices, in my opinion. By allowing the rest of the world compete, you are also helping poorer countries, who have been kept in their place by the EU.

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35941514)

I guess British workers could go live in France in order to get work making the passports, isn't that what some of you have been bleating about . . the free movement of workers?

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35941529)

Not according to this Brexiteer...

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/ex...border-control

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941545)

Another irony of the passport contract is that the British incumbent De La Rue sounds pretty French to me!

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35941583)

The French also cited National Security and that is a get out clause that means you don't need to obey tendering rules.

So long as the actual work is done in the UK, as seems likely, it's not really an issue?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941585)

It really shouldn't be an issue anyway. It's good if the passports could actually be made in this country, but by no means essential. Why pay more for work to be done here if it can be done more cheaply, more efficiently and with all quality requirements met elsewhere?

It's up to us to keep productivity standards up so that we can compete in the world, and that will be more important than ever in the post Brexit era. Good thing, too.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35941665)

Not really Andrew security and intelligence cooperation will be one of the hot bargaining points in upcoming negotiations and it's an area where we have a clear advantage, condemnation of this type of incident would happen whether we were in or out of the EU by sensible national leaders.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941656)

Well done to Theresa May on getting Europe behind her at the European Council meeting in the dispute with Russia.

However, a year from now, the British won't have a seat at the European Council where she can persuade her peers to get behind Britain in our hour of need.

Ian Bond of the Centre for European Reform makes a good point. “If Mrs May had not been at the table yesterday, she would have been relying entirely on the leaders of France, Germany and others to make her point for her. That would have been a pretty tough thing to do. The French and Germans are obviously concerned about what the Russians are doing. But this isn’t their fight.”

Food for thought.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35941678)

This incident would have been condemned whatever it really isn't an EU thing remember NATO most nations are also members of that lest we forget one senior EU official also congratulated Putin.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35941678)

This incident would have been condemned whatever it really isn't an EU thing remember NATO most nations are also members of that lest we forget one senior EU official also congratulated Putin.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35941673)

No,no, no! Our security issues have absolutely nothing to do with EU!

Remember, we had similar co-operation well before the EU. Remember Interpol?

Where will these ridiculous stories ever end? Please, let's ignore fake news.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35941686)

Not sure Trump is an EU official. :D
Read the article and others and you will learn about all the hard work that went on behind the scenes to get this statement out and related actions. You need to have a seat at the table to do this kind of stuff.

---------- Post added at 05:52 ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 ----------



The Financial Times and The Times are not fake news. To suggest otherwise is crazy.



You and Jeremy Corbyn may hanker back to the institutions and ways of working in the 1970s but the world has changed a lot since then.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35941690)

We will retain our seat at the table through NATO and the UN both larger then the EU and condemnation would have happened regardless of the EU, i get that you view the EU in high regard but it's important not to overstate it's position nor understate the position of other bodies that exist. Juncker yet again demonstrated his stupidity by congratulating Putin given the situation at the time and along with Trump undermined the international community's position. Add to that it gave a hint of legitimacy to a person that absolutely didn't deserve it just on the election itself given how he removed credible opponents. To do it when Russia and Putin have committed attempted murder is not exactly a glowing endorsement of the EU or the shambles that resulted from it.

Instead of praising the EU for this condemnation perhaps you should give Theresa May some credit for working to restore some credibility to the EU after appaling handling by the president of the european commission.