re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

To be honest remains negative fear mongering has worked and enough people will be scared and vote to remain best we can do is hope the leave number is high enough to trigger it in other countries.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How does that work with respect to other countries that trade with the EU? Taiwan, Korea, Japan, South Africa etc? Have they had to open their borders to the EU? :confused:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm confused too.

I read this but still not really any the wiser.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36083664

They quote EFTA here, and that we could be part of it, and they also quote Switzerland but in both those scenarios they have agreed to the single market principal of free movement of people.

Bottom line as I see it, is that we would still have to agree to free movement of people or no deal would be done.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It depends on whether you want a free trade agreement with no or limited tariffs (you mentioned South Korea - the EU has an FTA for most but not all products) or a customs union which is a free trade agreement with harmonised external tariffs.

FTAs can cover all products or some. I think the sticking point of an FTA after Brexit would be financial services and agriculture (Frankfurt and the French farmers might have something to say about it) Switzerlands FTA does not cover financial services well and Norways does not cover fisheries for example.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's clearly impractical in the case of the countries that I mentioned. Therefore there has to be a way of having a trade deal without the free movement of people along with it. :confused:

edit. Just read the post above :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's that. No going back now. Voted LEAVE YEY!

---------- Post added at 13:23 ---------- Previous post was at 13:21 ----------

That would depend on how badly they want our trade.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

and how badly we want theirs?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Remember trade-deals are not two-way streets nor all-encompassing. What you can get is relative to your bargaining clout (i.e size of addressable market you're opening up to them) and even then it can cover somethings and not others. It will be vital for us to get similar level of access as we have now for our services industry, especially finance. That would probably be our priority in any negotiation.

But we have a population of 64 million. Germany and France alone have a combined size of 146 million.

The EU would have a stronger hand in any negotiation unless Leave have a trick up their sleeve.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well I'd agree with all that if UKIP were a credible party of govt. but they're not, yet anyway, so whilst some might vote for them just to get us out of the EU very many more who want to leave probably wouldn't because they're not a credible govt. in all the other areas which matter and 5 years of that sort of Government could create all sorts of issues.

Whilst the two main parties who've run this country for by far the most part since WWII are dead set against the UK leaving, the reality is that leaving isn't simple at all. If we don't get out in June it'd require us to wait for the next general election at least and then elect a shambolic party into govt. Yes we might escape the EU but God only knows what would happen in the interim and in the aftermath.

---------- Post added at 14:25 ---------- Previous post was at 14:05 ----------

The economic growth and prospects of the nations concerned are also a major factor and right now the EU isn't exactly forging ahead is it. Then there's the rise of right wing extremism, social unrest, Poland, Turkey etc. etc. It's a perfect storm in the brewing and that doesn't make for a stable long term trading relationship no matter how big the relative populations are.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes it's not only population. It's not an exact science but it's still the size that what you bring to the table determines how much power you have to demand a favorable deal.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not surprising that many politicians from all the main parties want us to stay in the EU; it's a nice little gravy train for when their political careers are over in the UK.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The size of what you have to offer and the direction in which you're heading economically and politically. ;)

As regards foreign investment, nobody is going to want to invest in the EU if it's patently going down the pan. If things were clearly on the up, it would be different but the EU is far from on the up, nobody seriously denies there are huge problems around the corner for it whether we stay or leave. To the rest of the world that represents just as much an uncertainty as what might happen to the UK if we exited. We're frequently told that foreign firms won't want to invest in the UK but I wonder how much foreign investment is flowing into Greece, Spain, Italy, France, Portugal, Cyprus, Poland etc. etc. right now.

---------- Post added at 18:10 ---------- Previous post was at 18:04 ----------

Yes, and you can rest assured that none of them will be suffering the austerity and social pressures the rest of us will be due to their flawed ideology.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's a sad day when politicians put their comfy future billet ahead of the good of their country. Pretty close to treason in my books.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well I think the rich and powerful of the world all have the same interests and long term agenda at heart, it's just a question of scale. With the world's population rising fast, the only way they'll be able to secure their lifestyles is for the real power and wealth to be increasingly shared between a small elite at the expense of the rest. At the very top, few of them are going to freely relinquish their private estates, jets, yachts, luxury homes etc. in order that the likes of us have a slightly better life.

The subject of another thread, however... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think when you start accusing people who have a differing political opinion to you as committing treason then you're going down a damaging and unhealthy route. It's the same logic that hard-left protestors use when they're accusing Tories of being murderers and ****. You become so convinced you're right that the only alternative reasoning you can think of for someone thinking different is to ascribe some sort of sinister intent.

I mean if you're wrong about the consequences of Brexit and people do suffer in an economic recession then will Leave have committed Treason? Of course not. The leaders of the Leave campaign are also largely insulated have any impact that might be to come.

All this thinking does is distort perspective and fester hate.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The reasons I had for wanting to leave are gone now, the polish are here and here to stay, they're not going back regardless of what happens and their so integrated in our ways that the problems of them depressing wages aren't as bad as they used to be when it was pretty much just me and sparkle banging on about it on here, then was the time to act not now, it's to late and I certainly wasn't relying on politicians I was just hoping they could put forward a case to turn me back from remaining.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The way we were lied to and sold down the river at the last referendum was treason! Same with how Cameron is lying to us now!

---------- Post added at 20:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:41 ----------

Interesting reads on this site:
http://eureferendum.blogspot.co.uk/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Actually it isn't.

Many (if not all) of the real leaders behind the EU, see the United States of Europe as a precursor and stepping stone to a world government, as do the people who want to integrate America, South America and Canada. Their aim is the death of individual sovereign countries.

Many of the high ranking EU people, Pro-EU British politicians, high level financiers and other heads of state, are regular attendees of the secretive Bilderberg group, who have a globalist agenda, with elites running the show.

The out of work British senior politicians, getting jobs within the EU, is just a case of the EU 'looking after their own'.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Fair enough, the decision is for each individual. I only hope our finest hour isn't about to be missed.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Tin foil hats on standby ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

All the EU is doing is creating waves of migrants, each of which tends to undercut the previous lot. When the Turks are added to the mix there'll be a real backlash if there hasn't already been one...

---------- Post added at 23:09 ---------- Previous post was at 23:06 ----------

I agree but it is the subject of another thread as I'm pretty sure a mod will confirm for us shortly... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

IMO the mass immigration that has been allowed around the world is just replacing slavery. Just another source of mass cheap labour. But as each wave in time becomes less cheap, the next wave from yet another country is allowed in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's one of the most important aspects that people need to consider when making their decision on which way to vote. Being aware of the real goals of the people behind the EU is really important. It most definitely needs to be in this thread.

People can then choose to either dismiss it or check it out for themselves.

I am curious as to why you would agree, but then think it not relevant to the thread.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm thinking the Mods, might not agree (from past experience) but maybe they're now happy it does and, if so, I'm more than happy to discuss it here because it is IMHO relevant to the EU debate albeit as part of a global issue.

I see Donald Tusk seems suddenly to have come to the conclusion that the EU elite have got it all wrong and their obsession with a single state is a Utopian dream and will be the undoing of the EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36429331

My God anyone would think he was really Nigel Farage!!

Does he really mean it however? I'm not sure he'll be saying the same thing if the UK votes to stay in and that might explain why he's done it now. Politicians eh, who'd trust them?... .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Typical politician coming out with that a matter of weeks before the referendum.

If remain win I expect his comments will be totally forgotten and the EU will just plough ahead with its efforts to create a USE.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The idea of voting leave is to slow down or even stop them coming so your reason hasn't gone it's just made a little harder. Those who are here will get the choice to remain or go back but it will be harder for them to get in in the first place. That's the point.

The only way you'll stop them depressing wages is to stop them coming in the first place. Vote Leave.

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 ----------

It's not so much treason as it will be hard for people to trust him again. He'll have to go after the referendum regardless or risk defeat after defeat from his own Party.

---------- Post added at 13:00 ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 ----------

Me too. It's gonna be decided on Immigration or the Economy. Let's hope those who can influence a remain vote stay at home!

---------- Post added at 13:02 ---------- Previous post was at 13:00 ----------

Well I voted LEAVE in 1975 and in 2016 and don't regret it one bit!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They won't be forgotten by us and I'm sure we'll be reminding everyone here of what he said if the worst happens... ;)

I certainly don't believe he's being secure or that anyone much in Eurolalaland will listen but I'll be happy to admit it if he proves me wrong.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not at all. That is the logical conclusion if you look at what is going on in the EU, Asia and the Americas and do a lot of reading. 'They' are working towards creating huge regional power blocks which will ultimately be amalgamated into a 'one world government'
It won't happen for a long time (obviously) but that is the ultimate aim and it does make sense in the long term for the planet.

---------- Post added at 13:12 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------

Well that's just given everyone here who thought that 'ever closer political union' is just a phrase and not really what the EU is about something to ponder :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yup, it evidently wasn't all hyperbole dreamt up and employed by swivel eyed xenophobes... :D

Odd how something so momentous isn't all over the news/headlines though... :confused: :rolleyes:

Meanwhile just when you thought there were enough tensions boiling over in the EU:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36433114

It's all soooo rosy in the Euro garden isn't it...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I can see a future with one world government. Closer would be a more centralised Euro government for better and closer ties, better defence and so on. It may be done in stages. It will likely try to show how national identity is more a hindrance to peace and anyone who doesn't agree is really the enemy of "right thinking people". This could be a response to some "external" threat.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Your Utopian dream is just that, a dream. I wish it would be possible but it would never happen and certainly not to the benefit of the working man.

Just look at the recent events in the Ukraine. The rest of the world told Putin not to move troops in, what did he do? Annex the Crimea. What did the rest of the world do? Put sanctions in place What difference has it made? Nothing!

Like it or not people from different areas of the world will have irreconcilable differences, we all wish it would be otherwise but it never wil be.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Hardly Uptopia, I am not for central control at all. And you are right it would not be to the benefit of the public at all, though there would have to be some benefits.

And while we are all different it's not hard to find a common enemy, again in stages and appropriate to the arena. So central Euro would be different from central control in Africa, Americas', Asia. It would be the malcontents opposing Union that would be a threat, never ending of course, requiring more and tighter regulation. After all, all right thinking people want peace, stability etc.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well That's what the EU want but it would be run from Brussels and only for their benefit. If you think that's the way to go then that's fine but I don't think in today's climate that free movement around all of Europe is the way to go. Think of the field day the terrorists would have. Even more so if they had free movement around the world.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You've contradicted your OP
Closer ties between other countries, cultures and peoples is something I would welcome with open arms. I am a realist and know that will never happpen. Nothing that the politicans do would benefit be to the benefit of the public and there will always be malcontents. That is life, get used to it.

What you want, as I, is a utopian dream which will never come to pass. At least I can see why not.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I see the Electoral Commission isn't exactly covering itself in glory, again...

http://order-order.com

Pretty poor really.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

:roll eyes: It just something worrying about their underlying systems for this sort of thing.

In other news Ryanair continue to troll the Leave campaign: http://news.sky.com/story/1705985/ry...er-for-eu-poll

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Who watched the sky news interview with DC tonight?

For me it seemed more of the same old repetitive drivel that has been coming out of his mouth for months.

Firstly because we have stuff already in place with the EU even if we pulled out we are so intertwined within the EU unlike USA/Canada and China as an example then our trade agreements can not simply just be pulled out.

The car manufacturers wont pull out and stop trading with the UK and neither will any other EU country they will lose money and as much as DC might talk about job loses for companies moving to the EU then all these other companies trading with the UK could also go under. he's not very clear on how this will affect the EU only Britain and we have a big impact on the EU.

Same with women talking about her son and daughter in London about lower paid jobs DC seems to think staying in will create more jobs which we all know is nonsense. 330k migrants coming into the country and more to follow they are taking up all the low paid jobs.


DC seemed to forget to mention this. He compared a Canada type trade deal but because we are already part of the EU and have this special status as he keeps going on about then perhaps the UK will have it's own "UK" type trade deal in order to keep the EU going and lets face it the EU is worried other countries might jump ship if we go so we have a better outlook on this if we leave.

Still hasn't changed my mind but lets wait and see what the out campaign say tomorrow

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I didn't see the rubbish. I don't listen to a PM, that cannot even look after his own country. The deal that he made with Brussels, was even condemned by The Sun.

I will be voting Leave, for the simplr reason is that, l want the UK back under British control, Not Brussels.

Why should we pay more to them, then we get back.

Trade will still come to the UK, no matter what DC says. We might even do more trade with abroad.

Its about money.

And we will then be able to control our OWN borders. Nothing that DC on immigration is to be believed.

He doesn't even know how many people have come into this Country. Most of them have come through the beaches of Kent.

After the vote, l can see the knives out for DC and Osborne. And an election in October

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I haven't seen it as yet but saw a bit on the News this morning. The bit that caught my attention was DC saying migration can be managed by staying in the EU. Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the same DC who said it would be down to 10s of thousands or lower by 2015? So this is managing migration while being in the EU?

The other thing both sides seem to be doing is when leave are asked about the economy they manage to turn the subject to immigration and when remain are asked about immigration they turn to the economy.

---------- Post added at 08:15 ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 ----------

A good and valid reason for voting leave. I cast my vote on that as my main reason - I have a postal vote and have voted leave.

The waffle and bluff and bluster DC comes out with is just that. A good Scottish word for it is pish! Excuse the Gaelic.

Of course we'll still get access to the criminal databases. It wouldn't be in either interest to deny us access to that.

Trade will still continue on June 24th as it will take about 10 years to untangle ourselves from the EU.

EU Citizens will NOT be kicked out the country. I believe they'll be given the choice to take British Citizenship or go home.

Immigration and Migration will NOT come down if we remain in the EU, it will increase as more countries join.

Other EU Countries WILL trade with us as we have what they need and visa versa.

The economy will NOT crash as a result of leaving because of the reasons above. Oh there will be a period of uncertainty but because the world won't end on June 24th it will be nowhere as bad as they say it will.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm afraid we're going to get more of this 'we can control/reform/choose...' blah blah blah garbage even though our experience of the last couple of decades has proved otherwise. The Euro-supporters have no answers for the main questions on sovereignty, free movement, ever closer union, reform etc. so all that's left for them is weasel words and false promises and if we fall for it now it'll be back to business as usual when the dust settles. The EU is a one trick pony, it was set up for one reason and its entire raison d'etre is the opposite of what they're now starting to claim is the way forward. Pledges before an election? Yeah right, we all know where most of them go after the votes have been won...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It was nice seeing Cameron get a kicking on Sky last night :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Think he held his own to be honest. I would say most of the reaction has been neutral. It was decent, tough questions, relatively well dealt with. No real win or loss for either side.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I didn't see it but really think he's let himself down exceptionally badly over his handling of this. After all the hard talking prior to the supposed renegotiations, he's reneged on virtually everything he said he wanted and has become part of the machine. As PM I don't expect him not to have a view or not to argue the case for it but I do expect him to treat the electorate with a good deal more respect that has been the case with the incessant diet of scaremongering which IMHO has been orchestrated by people who don't have the best interests of the UK (or Europe) at heart as much as they have their own.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cameron stating that he can control immigration, but he can't under EU rules, and has failed miserably up to now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's the feeling I get from it though I didn't see it. At least we got our points across from what I saw on this morning's News and that's what wavering voters will hear. He kept harping back to the economic argument cos he couldn't deal with the immigration one and if he got a kicking, that's where he got it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Ironically, he doesn't have an economic argument, simply an opinion. No-one knows what would happen if we leave and no-one knows what will happen if we stay either (economically).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yep, the truth is that, regardless of whether we leave the EU or not, NOBODY knows what's going to happen economically, socially or politically here or anywhere else for that matter. The only stuff we can be certain of with regard to the EU is what's happened to date and it ain't great.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What we can be certain of, in the short term, is that we will not be giving £18bn a year to the EU. Some of that saved money would need to be spent to replace money that EU sends back (~£8bn), for example to farmers, but we would then be in control of that spending and could probably target it better whilst reducing it.

Either way there's £10bn in the pot for HMG to spend as they see fit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This is assuming no drop in the economy though. £10bn would be wiped out with a slight drop in growth (from where we otherwise be).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Excellent letter in the Sprctator:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/b...eron-has-left/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The eurozone is not exactly setting the economic world alight at the minute and all the organisation's telling us how disastrous our leaving the EU will be don't have good forecasts for the EU economically so the economy argument for me is neither a plus point for remain or leave. Given what we're hearing daily you'd think the UK only has the EU to trade with here's the problem with EU trade as the eurozone economies continue to struggle so will our trade with them but we're not getting that info.

All the trade and economy scare mongering that is going on is ridiculous and I'm meant to take the imf, wto, boe and the rest seriously after their fantastic performance in economic predictions for the last 20 years there hasn't been a crisis they saw coming or were prepared for but now we should all be listening to them. I think people need to look at just the EU as it is what it is planning to become and what it's done and on that it's record is as impressive as all those economic institutions.

As for David Cameron he has shown his attitude to the British people in this referendum and whilst I'm not going to talk in terms of treason which I agree is a little dramatic I do not think he should remain prime minister.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

isn't it the case though that farming is subsidised in the UK so heavily because we are in Europe? I'm fairly sure that one of the biggest changes should we leave would be to farmers and the way crops are grown and distributed throughout Europe .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But how do you know this? Because the Treasury say so? They just don't know. They are putting forward worse case scenarios which will never happen. We'll take a small hit and recover within a year.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I am saying in the event we take a economic hit it's likely that will cost the treasury more than the money saved in contributions. In the context of government budgets £10 billion isn't groundbreaking.

As for why I believe there will be a hit well it isn't just the treasury. There is a broad amount of support for the idea there will be an economic hit. Including the IMF, the LSE, OECD and so on. Pretty much every major economic body has warned of it.

This FT article is pretty good too: https://next.ft.com/content/70d0bfd8...d-09f7778e7377

Say 'no, it'll be fine' isn't convincing.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Partly because the French like it that way as they have many small unprofitable farms. As a consequence we end up with grain barons, usually Tory nobs, that have large, highly profitable farms, getting wallops of cash as well as the small hill farms. Out of the CAP we would be in control. We could chose who gets the subsidies.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Oh here we go. Talk about holding the country to ransom? I thought it was the people's decision whether to stay or leave the EU?

JP Morgan warns of BrexJ

P Morgan may cut up to 4,000 UK jobs if there is a vote to leave the European Union, its chief executive has warned.

Jamie Dimon said that Brexit would "be a terrible deal" for the UK economy.

He was speaking alongside Chancellor George Osborne at JP Morgan's base in Bournemouth, where the US bank has 4,000 staff.

Leave campaign spokesman, Steve Baker MP, said it was time for the 'In' campaign to engage in an honest debate.
it jobs threat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36446023

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I would like to see a debate on live TV with some selected members of the EU tell us why it would be beneficial to stay in the EU and the Audiance can ask them questions.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It is. It's also their choice where to invest or locate their workforce.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But that would make those who bank with them or work there vote stay. Therefore, they don't have a choice they tow the line or lose their jobs.

4000 guaranteed remain votes. Cameron must be rubbing his hands with glee.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well of course. People will vote in their self-interest. They retain the option to vote however they want obviously but if you're working in financial services, especially those that trade in European markets, then that is likely to influence your vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Of course germany and france do not want us to leave.We along with them are the biggest donors of money to the eu.Leave and the residents of germany and france will have to make up our donation shortfall if they want to continue the same level of bribes to the former communist countries to get their continued agreement to support the european dream.The rich north subsidises the poor south and the poor eastern countries and will continue to do so ad infinitum.Are you happy to continue to pay for them with your tax contributions?.The choice is yours to make come june 23.Me i'm voting leave as we can control our own destiny.I cannot believe the timidity and fearfull outlook from some people if we leave.Time for the old bulldog spirit to rise again and put the great back into britain.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

I do hope they mean south Cyprus and not the Turkish occupied north. Malta was full of dual-nationality Libyans last time I was there. And Irish Republicans who get their own EU votes (again and again until they give the right answer).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36446521

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Really!!!!

I do not want to be living in a Federal State for one thing although Dave and his cronies have sought to get special dispensation for us or is it for the bankers appeasement. What if more countries get in to financial troubles who do you think the EU mob will ask for more money from to prop up them up.

More migrants will want to come here thats for sure, just recently we had 19 Albanians turn up on a sinking boat at Dymnchurch, Kent. The saying goes All for One, One for All comes to mind.

LGTFO (lets get the **** out).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Gove handled the Sky debate very well tonight. Much better that Cameron last night.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The credibility of international economic organisation's was a joke before this referendum but now we are constantly being told to listen to them, nothing like this has happened before nobody knows a damn thing for sure and the deluge of horror stories should we vote to leave is dishonest campaigning. There have been favourable economic reports done by all the bodies who have released all these disaster scenarios why are they not published and the public given a complete overview of all opinions we are being manipulated in an unacceptable way and the public needs to send a clear message that what has happened is not who we are, what we are and will never be.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Where do you hear they've done favourable economic reports that aren't being released?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't you still have to pay the dues to get access to the single market, iirc norway pay 80% of what a full member in their position would

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think they both did pretty well. Gove surprised me, he did better than i thought whereas Cameron has become very experienced and slick at this kind of thing. Gove managed to appear considered and didn't make any real mistakes.

Cameron did fine last night as evidenced today where, outside of the Tory press, his performance was largely incident free. I think the same will go today. Gove didn't get hit, the Remain papers will focus on his answers to the economic question but they would, and he didn't score a clear winner.

I don't think these two debates will have much of an impact really but Gove will have gone up in a lot of people's estimations.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Gove did very well IMHO.

---------- Post added at 21:52 ---------- Previous post was at 21:50 ----------

... and that drop in growth or worse could just as easily caused by being shackled to the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It could be but at the moment there is a large body of economic opinion the Leaving would cost us. Although this is a debate we've had before. :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There are lots of Brits living in the TRNC, but it is not a recognised state (except by Turkey), so it is unlikely they will be eligible.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The same large body of economic opinion that failed to see the 2008 crisis coming you mean? That thought joining the Euro was a great idea? The same economic opinion which failed to predict mass migration on an unprecedented level? Let's forget what if's and look at right now eh? It doesn't take a large body of opinion to know how badly the EU is doing right now and that no solution to the many serious problems it faces has yet to be found. Now that's real uncertainty for you and getting as far away from it as possible before it's too late ought to be a priority I'd have thought but I'll grant you roaming charges may go up as a result... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't think the economists are infallible but if they're all saying one thing and the other side's rebuttal is simply that they're wrong then I give more credibility to the former. Many of these organisations are neutral and spent a lot of time studying these things, the nature of economics means they don't have 100% success rate but I value expertise and study, even if it can be wrong, over blind assertion. As I have mentioned before economically literate papers such as The Economist and the FT also believe these warnings to be credible in their coverage.

This is just a re-run of the Scottish Referendum. A lot of organisations saying it was bad for both economies, that it would give a big economic hit and would harm living standards. They weren't dismissed so readily then (although ironically they are now embraced by the same people who saw them as establishment stooges then, a.k.a the SNP).

---------- Post added at 22:47 ---------- Previous post was at 22:20 ----------

I know that isn't an entirely serious line but I was in three different European countries over the last couple of months and got a pretty expense phone bill as a result. No more roaming charges would be very welcome. :D

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Damien it is normal when drawing up economic forecasts to cover the whole range of possibilities not just the worst case scenario which is all remain have put to the public and I've met enough people lately in positions to know that the government is withholding those reports which do not further it's agenda. Just to be clear our government is lying to the British people and deliberately withholding information that the public should have access too in order for them to make an informed choice, I have never been as embarassed and ashamed of my government as I am right now.

By the time it all comes out it will be too late and that's exactly what the government wants if I was to see David Cameron in the street tomorrow I'd spit on his feet a truly unworthy prime minister.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I disagree. Cameron was the sterotypical rabbit in the headlights. All he kept saying was that europe has 500 million people and we can continue to trade with them whereas Gove had a decent answer for all of the questions.So Gove made more of an impact than Cameron? ;)
Admit it. Gove was far better than Cameron, but it's hardly surprising since Cameron is lying and Gove was speaking from the heart. Look at their faces in each debate, Camerons eyes betrayed him. Gove was relaxed apart from when he was asked about the second homes in France :shrug:

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Economists are so good at predicting the future :dozey::D

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Yep. Best vote in and throw away our democracy :dozey:

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Interesting that those economists aren't pontificating on the worst case scenario regarding what could happen if we stay in.....it's almost like they are biased :dozey:

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Sorry but this is pretty big if you have this information. You're saying the Government is withholding (presumably) treasury reports that speak positively of the impact of Brexit? Is there any evidence of this?

What about the reports from the institutions that are not Governmental? How are they withholding that? Did the Government place a ban on them?

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Does the BBC never learn?
BBC Brexit Report Presented EU-Backed Professor As Independent ‘Trade Expert’

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

quite scary about the bacon :rolleyes: at least when we leave we can have real bacon without a glass of water injected into it :shocked:

i don't think the public are being fooled by so called experts this ongoing EU argument has put that avenue to bed .

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Dave was accused of waffling.
it's right though. he's done nothing but waffle for years now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how the huge, well known and worsening problems evident within the EU/Eurozone over the last decade represent, somehow, less uncertainty than the UK getting out does. :confused: :spin:

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The hierarchy of the BBC is just another rich, out of touch, elite who have everything to gain from the UK being subsumed into some hideous Eurostate which exists purely to serve the few and the expense of the many. As much as they try to hide it in one way or another, their partiality doesn't surprise me one jot.

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Simply because the problems are known ,our glorious leaders have no will to do anything about those problems but they know exactly what they are .Leaving the EU would require our leaders to actually do what they are paid to do and lead the country away from those problems .Brings us back to the question of who could lead the country post exit ?

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what i have seen is the man is a liar and treats the British people like idiots with his constant flow of lies and bull.

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I'd like to see this too. I've already voted Leave but would be interested in it.

Yes Michael did very well. Especially fending off that idiot interviewer who kept interrupting him. Take back control is the message to get across.

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This bears repeating:

Jean-Claude Juncker - President of the European Commission, serving from 2014

Jacques Delors - President of the European Commission and the first person to serve three terms in that office (between January 1985 and January 1995)

Jean Monnet (1888 – 1979) - often described as the founder of the EU

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It needs plastering across every front page and every Breaking news banner from now until voting day ,especially the statement by Jean Monnet because that is exactly what is happening right now .

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Nah. I'm sure it was just a vague idea. Definitely not the founding principal :rolleyes::D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Very true. he's on a roll when he has the right audience who don't question him.

but when he gets someone who isn't going to listen to his waffle, lies and arrogance he goes all sheepish like a little kid.

one thing I've always said about him is he waffles on in response to something then he says LOOK! and hopes that he's scared the person enough not to question him any longer. and hopefully let him waffle on some more.

classic sign of a lying, slaphead bully.

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Seems The Gover is the new Tony Blair: all spin and no substance .. what do experts know anyway ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He's a lying two-faced Mod Edit - removed. At least Corbyn is honest. His heart isn't in his speeches and you can tell. What the betting he'll vote Leave in the privacy of the polling booth.

[Mod Comment - do not use asterisks to avoid the swear filter - people still know what you mean; this is a family-friendly forum, and this is against Site T&Cs.

Repetition of this behaviour may lead to infractions being incurred.]

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Any report that shows any positive from brexit is not being made available to the public and there have been reports by the treasury, Ons and ifs and no one working for them is prepared to risk their jobs by leaking them. My information comes from conversations I've had with a number of people who I have known for years I know they hold the positions they do and have zero reason to doubt them one especially as she is a very pro EU person but doesn't feel it is right that information is being withheld from the public and she is having the courage of her convictions and has already handed her resignation in.

I could be a git and throw names around on a public forum maybe two names would be recognised by some but the conversations were at a private social gathering and there was no mention of publicising those conversations so it would be wrong for me to do so. It will come out later down the road everyone seemed to agree it would get out but at a time when it no longer matters.

Reality is are we expected to believe that brexit is the first incident where a mountain of economic study has been done and it's all completely negative not a single small ray of light of positivity that's more then a bit of a stretch. As for other non UK economic organisation's and why they are only putting out one type of report I don't know but there are many within those organisation's that are pro EU and as mentioned many times but not really countered they have got nearly every big economic issue wrong in recent times so how they are credible and should be listened too is beyond me.

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I also believe a wall of silence has been instigated on any positive side of leaving.

I can't prove it, but I feel it in my (old) bones.

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Yes, because nobody ever leaks any embarrassing documents....

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Maybe they're just biding their time. Leaked reports showing BREXIT would be successful in the last week of the campaign would spike the remain camp's guns leaving immigration to secure the vote. ;)

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That'll be it.... :D

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Just to point out that whilst you can imagine the Government wouldn't allow any negative news to be released, hell that might be likely when it comes to migration, I don't see how they would stop places such as the IFS doing it or the LSE.

This whole thing is getting a bit weird. A few pages ago people were talking of the New World Order.

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http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/at...5&d=1465057247

As the man said.

Attachment 26615

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The same could be said of 9/11 being an inside job, the illuminati or the lizard people. Sometimes wacky conspiracy theories are just that. I mean this one has the usual hallmarks of a conspiracy theory in that it assumes amazing competence from the Euro-elites the same people tell us are utterly useless. I am far more convinced that the European leaders are just out of their depth when dealing with many issues rather than cynically manipulating them for their own gain.

There are plenty of good arguments Leave can make, especially around given more powers to Parliament itself and better control of EU immigration. I don't think going down the conspiratorial route is one of the better ones. If someone is concerned about the economic argument are they really going to be convinced by people saying that it's wrong and that favourable information is being withheld by the elites of the NWO?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Mistrust of the establishment has never been higher. I think people will follow their own instincts.

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[QUOTE=Damien;35841047]The same could be said of 9/11 being an inside job, the illuminati or the lizard people. Sometimes wacky conspiracy theories are just that. I mean this one has the usual hallmarks of a conspiracy theory in that it assumes amazing competence from the Euro-elites the same people tell us are utterly useless. I am far more convinced that the European leaders are just out of their depth when dealing with many issues rather than cynically manipulating them for their own gain.

There are plenty of good arguments Leave can make, especially around given more powers to Parliament itself and better control of EU immigration. I don't think going down the conspiratorial route is one of the better ones. If someone is concerned about the economic argument are they really going to be convinced by people saying that it's wrong and that favourable information is being withheld by the elites of the NWO?[/QUOTE]

we call them the snake oil people ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

context is all... ;)

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-a-...s-hoover.t330/