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-   -   Russia has invaded Ukraine (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33710768)

pip08456 29-12-2022 17:43
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
How to motivate troops.

https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/stat...78899943673857

ianch99 30-12-2022 12:47
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
There is a definite view from some who do not support Ukraine's ability to fight against invasion, and that is that this is a "proxy war" between the West and Russia. I am unclear what this means in the real world so if anyone does think this, please share your analysis.

Here is a really good, prescient, analysis of Putin by John McCain in 2014: https://twitter.com/i/status/1608067011841515522

Quote:
“There’s nothing that provokes vladimir putin more than weakness,” John McCain in 2014 about not giving Ukraine weapons & next steps of Kremlin dictator
He is saying that in 2014, the US not only denied Ukraine weapons when Putin invaded eastern Ukraine, they denied intelligence as well. This appeasement was the "provocation" that Putin needed to resume his invasion in 2022.

Chris 30-12-2022 14:25
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36142821)
There is a definite view from some who do not support Ukraine's ability to fight against invasion, and that is that this is a "proxy war" between the West and Russia. I am unclear what this means in the real world so if anyone does think this, please share your analysis.

Here is a really good, prescient, analysis of Putin by John McCain in 2014: https://twitter.com/i/status/1608067011841515522



He is saying that in 2014, the US not only denied Ukraine weapons when Putin invaded eastern Ukraine, they denied intelligence as well. This appeasement was the "provocation" that Putin needed to resume his invasion in 2022.
Ruth Deyermond, senior lecturer in War Studies at KCL, posted an interesting and relevant Twitter thread this morning. Under the general heading of ‘advice for the year ahead’ she lists several observations re Ukraine and Russia. Points 5 and 6 are particularly relevant to some of the stuff that has been posted on this forum in recent days and weeks:

Quote:
5. Stop both-sidesing. You cannot draw any equivalence between Russia conducting a genocidal war of conquest, carried out by rapists and child-torturers, and Ukraine fighting for its survival.
Quote:
6. Stop amplifying Russian lines designed to weaken Western support for Ukraine. Yes, nuclear threats make exciting headlines, and claims about US proxy wars might appeal to your readership, but it distorts perceptions and helps the aggressor.
https://twitter.com/ruth_deyermond/s...92-taQByiJS7Ag

Damien 30-12-2022 15:27
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
I am getting less tolerant of those that remain sympathetic to Russia since the start of the invasion. There has always been a useful idiot symptom of people who see Russia as a foil to an 'imperialistic' West and NATO, especially on the left, but the way people now contort themselves to continue to find a reason to equivocate on Russia invading Ukraine makes me think it's not naive at all. They know who Putin is and they like it.

What's new is these tankies on the left have been joined by right-wing anti-establishment conspiracy theorists who idolise dictators like Putin.

pip08456 01-01-2023 16:07
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Zelensky's New Year broadcast (english subs).

Paul 01-01-2023 16:32
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36142837)
I am getting less tolerant of those that remain sympathetic to Russia since the start of the invasion.
Perhaps people are just fed up of paying for a war that isnt ours, rather than being "sympathetic" to Russia.

Jaymoss 01-01-2023 16:40
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36142953)
Perhaps people are just fed up of paying for a war that isnt ours, rather than being "sympathetic" to Russia.
Absolutely

Chris 01-01-2023 16:59
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36142953)
Perhaps people are just fed up of paying for a war that isnt ours, rather than being "sympathetic" to Russia.
This is extremely short-sighted.

Russia almost immediately responded to European opposition to its genocide in Ukraine by choking off gas supplies. How can you say its not our war when a genocidal dictatorship is overtly attempting to influence our politics in this way?

Should we just accept that Russia has the whip hand over our foreign policy due to our energy dependency and just let it do whatever it wants?

ianch99 01-01-2023 17:06
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36142953)
Perhaps people are just fed up of paying for a war that isnt ours, rather than being "sympathetic" to Russia.
Depends on what you mean by "ours". This is a war of aggression on mainland Europe which if was allowed to play out by those wishing to appease Putin would have untold consequences. Putin has a vision of a Greater Russia along the lines of a weird pseudo-USSR, a nostalgic vision of a Russia that can take what it wants through strength of arms and financial muscle.

The money we are spending to help Ukraine is small: 2.3 billion out of a GDP around 2.7 trillion. However it is money well spent, like an insurance policy against a much larger & expensive problem if Putin is allowed to run riot.

History tells us that appeasement is the wrong policy ...

TheDaddy 01-01-2023 17:16
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36142955)
This is extremely short-sighted.

Russia almost immediately responded to European opposition to its genocide in Ukraine by choking off gas supplies. How can you say its not our war when a genocidal dictatorship is overtly attempting to influence our politics in this way?

Should we just accept that Russia has the whip hand over our foreign policy due to our energy dependency and just let it do whatever it wants?
Yeah we preferred it when they covertly influenced our politics buying politicians and interfering with elections or when they poisoned our citizens or assassinated opponents on our streets, I'm glad we are sending Ukraine cash, they're fighting a war so we don't eventually have to imo

Damien 01-01-2023 17:21
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36142953)
Perhaps people are just fed up of paying for a war that isnt ours, rather than being "sympathetic" to Russia.
No, they've been saying this stuff since the start of the war and constantly trying to 'both-sides' the conflict as if they're almost equally morally culpable.

1andrew1 06-01-2023 00:14
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Bad news for Putin.
Quote:
US and Germany to send armoured fighting vehicles to Ukraine

Move comes after decision by France’s Emmanuel Macron to deliver ‘tank killers’

Germany and the US will send armoured fighting vehicles to Ukraine, the White House said, in a move that will deliver a big boost to Kyiv’s offensive capabilities.

The deliveries mark a significant shift for Germany’s chancellor Olaf Scholz, who has been reluctant to provide Ukraine with heavy weaponry amid fears it could drag Nato into the war.

Scholz and Biden in a statement “expressed their common determination to continue to provide the necessary financial, humanitarian, military and diplomatic support to Ukraine for as long as needed”.

As part of this effort, “the United States intends to supply Ukraine with Bradley infantry fighting vehicles, and Germany intends to provide Ukraine with Marder infantry fighting vehicles. Both countries plan to train Ukrainian forces on the respective systems,” the statement said.

Pressure on Scholz to shift position has grown since Emmanuel Macron, president of France, agreed to supply AMX-10s “tank killers” to the Ukrainian armed forces — a move billed by the Élysée Palace as the first delivery of western-made tanks to the country.

“Scholz was forced to act after Macron pressed ahead,” said one person familiar with the discussions.
https://www.ft.com/content/216fecbc-...3-9fa253580b15

RichardCoulter 06-01-2023 02:21
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36142958)
Yeah we preferred it when they covertly influenced our politics buying politicians and interfering with elections or when they poisoned our citizens or assassinated opponents on our streets, I'm glad we are sending Ukraine cash, they're fighting a war so we don't eventually have to imo
Exactly.

1andrew1 11-01-2023 17:36
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
UK and Poland confirm plans to send modern heavy tanks to Ukraine

Decisions put pressure on Germany and other western nations to follow suit

UK prime minister Rishi Sunak has asked defence secretary Ben Wallace to “work with partners” in the coming weeks to go “further and faster with our support for Ukraine including the provision of tanks”, Downing Street said.

Polish president Andrzej Duda said his government would send a company of German-built Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine’s army “as part of the building of an international coalition”. A company implies around 14 tanks.

The moves by London and Warsaw will ramp up pressure on Berlin to provide tanks of its own to Kyiv and to give the required approval to other governments to re-export German-built vehicles.
https://www.ft.com/content/092b8894-...4-5b21a0c68709

Pierre 11-01-2023 19:42
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36143570)
As long as we get paid back, just as we had to pay back for WW1 & WW2, then fine.

Chris 11-01-2023 22:46
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36143575)
As long as we get paid back, just as we had to pay back for WW1 & WW2, then fine.
Lend lease was on a vastly greater scale, and in fact at one point the USA offered to write down a chunk of the debt but HMG felt it was important for our international standing that we pay. We got about £300 billion of hardware from the USA (inflation adjusted to today). So far we have sent about £2 billion to Ukraine.

Regardless, your proposition suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of what’s unfolding in Ukraine now. The European security order will be decided for a generation based on whether Russia eventually overruns Ukraine or is crushed and forced back across its own borders. Russia’s immediate neighbours understand this - the Baltic states’ contributions are far greater, as a percentage of their GDP, than ours and even the United States.

A Ukrainian victory and a humbled Russia is absolutely in our security interests. And in fact a great deal of the kit we’re sending to Ukraine was procured on the assumption that it might, if the worst happened, have to be deployed against Russia anyway. In Ukraine it is being used as designed, even if it’s not UK personnel pulling the trigger.

ianch99 12-01-2023 08:58
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Think of it as an insurance premium

1andrew1 20-01-2023 19:35
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Germany faffing around whilst Ukraine burns. Even the German Green Party want the tanks supplied to Ukraine.
Quote:
Germany defies allies’ pressure to send tanks to Ukraine

Berlin says it needs to review stock of Leopards for when agreement is struck

Germany dashed its allies’ hopes that it would approve the dispatch of battle tanks to Ukraine on Friday when a high-profile defence ministers meeting failed to reach an agreement.

Many western countries argue that the German-made Leopard 2 battle tanks would greatly help Kyiv mount a counteroffensive against Russia, but Berlin has yet to agree, despite weeks of intense pressure from its allies.

“[The Germans] have not made a decision on the provision of Leopard tanks,” US defence secretary Lloyd Austin said after the meeting in Ramstein, western Germany.

Berlin’s approval is necessary not only for sending its own Leopards, but also for the transfer of those held by 12 other European nations.

Ukraine says it needs more heavy armour to help it retake territory before Russia, which has mounted a huge mobilisation campaign, can refit and regroup.

Boris Pistorius, Germany’s new defence minister, said his ministry would check the army’s inventories of Leopards to see how many could be provided to Kyiv, as it continues to deliberate whether to release them to Ukraine.

Pistorius also hit back at claims that Berlin was the sole block on sending tanks to Ukraine. “The impression that occasionally arises that there’s a united coalition and Germany is standing in the way is wrong,” he said, adding that there were “many allies” who shared Germany’s view of the tanks issue.

Some German MPs were baffled by Pistorius’ statement. “It’s alarming that it took a new defence minister to check how many Leopard tanks we have, only now, 11 months after Russia attacked Ukraine,” said Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann, head of the German parliament’s defence committee.
https://www.ft.com/content/e17e1724-...a-ac471ed209e7

TheDaddy 20-01-2023 19:41
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36144025)
Germany faffing around whilst Ukraine burns. Even the German Green Party want the tanks supplied to Ukraine.
I'm not sure I blame them, they've spent 75 years blaming themselves for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers and won't see another war emanate from Germany, the fact this war has already started doesn't mean it can't escalate further without caution.

Chris 20-01-2023 20:00
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36144026)
I'm not sure I blame them, they've spent 75 years blaming themselves for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers and won't see another war emanate from Germany, the fact this war has already started doesn't mean it can't escalate further without caution.
There is no escalation path for Putin now except nuclear, and there’s no indication that that’s under any serious consideration in Russia - not least because its only friends in the world (China) have warned it not to, and its most powerful adversary (USA) has spelled out, through diplomatic channels, exactly how rapid and devastating its retaliation would be.

The ‘woah let’s not anger Putin’ line is really wearing thin now. Total war is already underway in Europe and continuing to drip-feed Ukraine just what it needs for defence is only prolonging it.

Germany’s only concern now should be trying to avoid being on the wrong side of history for once.

Sephiroth 20-01-2023 20:05
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36144026)
I'm not sure I blame them, they've spent 75 years blaming themselves for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers and won't see another war emanate from Germany, the fact this war has already started doesn't mean it can't escalate further without caution.
The Germans should remember what the Russians were like back in 1945 - as they are now in Ukraine.

1andrew1 21-01-2023 00:28
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36144026)
I'm not sure I blame them, they've spent 75 years blaming themselves for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers and won't see another war emanate from Germany, the fact this war has already started doesn't mean it can't escalate further without caution.
This war has emanated from Russia, not Germany. Enabling Ukraine to expel Russian forces from its territory will enable the war to end, not escalate it.

One lesson learnt from World War II is to not give into bullies.

As Mike Martin has tweeted, allowing Russia to win sends the wrong signal to China and its ambitions for Taiwan. Ukraine must win for the West to be credible.

TheDaddy 21-01-2023 01:31
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36144029)
Germany’s only concern now should be trying to avoid being on the wrong side of history for once.
I'm sure clever quips like this over 75 years will have only helped them make the right choice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36144031)
The Germans should remember what the Russians were like back in 1945 - as they are now in Ukraine.
I'm sure they remember what the rape army did only to well, it was us that turned a blind eye to it

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36144049)
This war has emanated from Russia, not Germany. Enabling Ukraine to expel Russian forces from its territory will enable the war to end, not escalate it.

One lesson learnt from World War II is to not give into bullies.
How many tanks do you think are being sent? How many do you believe it'll take?

1andrew1 21-01-2023 09:00
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
I believe they need a few hundred Leopard tanks. The deliveries at the moment are less about meaningful numbers and more about putting pressure on Germany to allow other countries to send their Leopard tanks to Germany as well as encouraging Germany to do the same.

richard-john56 22-01-2023 16:11
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Trade with Russia not for a long long time their regime has to change! Who are these people on MSN when there is a great article for support for Ukraine the thumbs up there are those idiots who vote down?

TheDaddy 25-01-2023 01:13
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Looks like Germany are releasing the leopards, apparently they have a sort of agreement from America that they'll join in with their tanks which might not be worth the paper it's written on but is enough for them to feel like they're not going it alone which understandably was a big thing for them imo.

Interestingly in terms of escalation, since speculation broke of this the doomsday clock is now at 90 seconds to midnight, the closest it's ever been

Chris 25-01-2023 11:24
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36144366)
Looks like Germany are releasing the leopards, apparently they have a sort of agreement from America that they'll join in with their tanks which might not be worth the paper it's written on but is enough for them to feel like they're not going it alone which understandably was a big thing for them imo.

Interestingly in terms of escalation, since speculation broke of this the doomsday clock is now at 90 seconds to midnight, the closest it's ever been
The Doomsday clock appears to be suffering what’s been dubbed ‘threat inflation’.

At the height of the Cuban missile crisis in 1962, when a nuclear exchange really was a distinct possibility, it was at 7 minutes to midnight.

https://twitter.com/drradchenko/stat...lqIvQ8MmyiVXEw

Sephiroth 25-01-2023 11:30
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36144366)
Looks like Germany are releasing the leopards, apparently they have a sort of agreement from America that they'll join in with their tanks which might not be worth the paper it's written on but is enough for them to feel like they're not going it alone which understandably was a big thing for them imo.

Interestingly in terms of escalation, since speculation broke of this the doomsday clock is now at 90 seconds to midnight, the closest it's ever been
That might be because of past doom false alarms. I don't doubt that the world is in a dangerous place because Putin is a wild card, but who can authoritatively give a doomsday clock value unless the remaining 90 second are calibrate to specific potential events?

Damien 25-01-2023 13:06
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Because the doomsday clock is attention seeking nonsense I would guess.

TheDaddy 25-01-2023 13:36
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36144390)
That might be because of past doom false alarms. I don't doubt that the world is in a dangerous place because Putin is a wild card, but who can authoritatively give a doomsday clock value unless the remaining 90 second are calibrate to specific potential events?
I don't even want to give puti credit for this tbh, climate change and the unintended consequences of his war are as likely to have pushed the time up rather than the threat of him going nuclear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36144402)
Because the doomsday clock is attention seeking nonsense I would guess.
Like most forum posts then :angel:

1andrew1 26-01-2023 00:20
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36144388)
The Doomsday clock appears to be suffering what’s been dubbed ‘threat inflation’.

At the height of the Cuban missile crisis in 1962, when a nuclear exchange really was a distinct possibility, it was at 7 minutes to midnight.

https://twitter.com/drradchenko/stat...lqIvQ8MmyiVXEw
That clock is a load of nonsense or words to that effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6jAdv14W-M

Maggy 26-01-2023 09:15
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Speculation,speculation sure sells a lot of news..:rolleyes:

1andrew1 26-01-2023 09:26
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36144444)
Speculation,speculation sure sells a lot of news..:rolleyes:
It's just worrying vulnerable people unnecessarily about the worst thing in the World that could happen.

Mr K 30-01-2023 10:39
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
The Kremlin has accused Boris Johnson, the former British Prime Minister, of "lying" when he said President Vladimir Putin had threatened him with a missile strike during a phone call in the run-up to the invasion of Ukraine.

Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin spokesman, told reporters that what Johnson said was not true, or "more precisely, a lie".
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...agner-bakhmut/

Tbf to the Russians they're probably right on this one, as he is an habitual liar.

1andrew1 30-01-2023 12:46
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36144712)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...agner-bakhmut/

Tbf to the Russians they're probably right on this one, as he is an habitual liar.
That's the trouble, isn't it?

You have a charismatic but dishonest PM in power and your ability to call Putin out is weakened.

TheDaddy 30-01-2023 13:22
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36144724)
That's the trouble, isn't it?

You have a charismatic but dishonest PM in power and your ability to call Putin out is weakened.
No it isn't, you don't need bozos dishonest anecdotes to call puti out, it's not like that's the only thing we've got

Chris 30-01-2023 15:16
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Trying to work out if it’s Putin or Boris who’s lying is like trying to ask what happens when an irresistible force encounters an immovable object.

Hugh 30-01-2023 17:07
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36144741)
Trying to work out if it’s Putin or Boris who’s lying is like trying to ask what happens when an irresistible force encounters an immovable object.
https://media.tenor.com/images/0e696...81e9/tenor.gif

1andrew1 30-01-2023 21:26
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36144726)
No it isn't, you don't need bozos dishonest anecdotes to call puti out, it's not like that's the only thing we've got
As the posts after ours showed, if you're trying to win a propaganda war against Putin, BoJo is a chink in our armour.

Hugh 31-01-2023 12:20
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
1 Attachment(s)
https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/sta...mXLd6RJqGkDqvw

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...7&d=1675167604

Strange - I thought it was Russia invading Ukraine that led to war in Europe?

1andrew1 31-01-2023 12:32
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36144814)
https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/sta...mXLd6RJqGkDqvw

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...7&d=1675167604

Strange - I thought it was Russia invading Ukraine that led to war in Europe?
He's just reciting from the flawed Putin playbook. Disappointing but not unexpected.

Damien 31-01-2023 12:38
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Farage is just defending his former employer

1andrew1 01-02-2023 19:53
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Sounds like he thinks he is.
Quote:
Boris Johnson hits back at Farage accusation: ‘I don’t know if Nigel’s speaking for the Kremlin’

...The Fox News anchor then asked Mr Johnson to respond to the comments.

“Well, look, I think that the Kremlin and I don’t know if Nigel’s speaking for the Kremlin, but the Kremlin are fabled for their complete refusal to tell the truth about anything that’s happening in Ukraine,” the former prime minister replied.

“I think what Putin was trying to do was creep me out… Bret, what he was trying to do was reduce it to a story about a nuclear standoff between Russia and Nato,” he added.

“And that’s what he talks about. You know, I don’t want to harm you with a missile. He wants it to be about Russia versus Nato, and he wants to drag in the whole nuclear issue. We’ve got to avoid being sucked down that rabbit hole. This is not what it’s about. It’s about the invasion of a completely innocent country.”
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...044bf4968fc690

Mr K 01-02-2023 19:59
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Nigel F - a Putin agent ?
Could be something to that. Certainly he's helped Putin divide and conquer, by making the Europe weaker.

richard-john56 01-02-2023 20:39
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Farage good at destroying unity with Europe perhaps he is a Russian Nazi after all.

Paul 02-02-2023 00:35
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard-john56 (Post 36145003)
Farage good at destroying unity with Europe perhaps he is a Russian Nazi after all.
Nah, he's just a complete twa* ...

1andrew1 08-02-2023 08:33
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Breaking: Zelensky visiting UK today.

Damien 08-02-2023 13:33
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Great speech

RichardCoulter 08-02-2023 14:59
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
It was.

As he's a target for Putin, he might be safer staying over here until/if he is able to return home. He could run his country remotely. I believe that our Queen was evacuated during WWII. Maybe he wants to return to boost morale though and not look like he's obtaining a privilege whilst his people suffer.

I wonder how he got here? Surely there are no flights to/from Ukraine at the moment??

1andrew1 08-02-2023 15:25
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36145452)
I wonder how he got here? Surely there are no flights to/from Ukraine at the moment??
There are from neighbouring nations like Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, etc.

Chris 08-02-2023 16:13
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36145452)
It was.

As he's a target for Putin, he might be safer staying over here until/if he is able to return home. He could run his country remotely. I believe that our Queen was evacuated during WWII. Maybe he wants to return to boost morale though and not look like he's obtaining a privilege whilst his people suffer.

I wonder how he got here? Surely there are no flights to/from Ukraine at the moment??
Elizabeth spent WW2 in Windsor and joined the Auxiliary Territorial Service after she turned 18. Many wanted the royals to flee to Canada but they did not.

Zelenskyy has likewise been offered the chance to run his government from exile and has refused. In the opening days of the war he famously declared “I need ammunition, not a ride.”

pip08456 08-02-2023 16:27
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36145452)
It was.

As he's a target for Putin, he might be safer staying over here until/if he is able to return home. He could run his country remotely. I believe that our Queen was evacuated during WWII. Maybe he wants to return to boost morale though and not look like he's obtaining a privilege whilst his people suffer.

I wonder how he got here? Surely there are no flights to/from Ukraine at the moment??
King George VI with his wife(future Queen Mother) remained at Buckingham House during WWII. Our future Queen (Princess Elizabeth aged 13) also remained but was evacuated to Windsor Castle in 1940 so still in Country. On reaching 18 she enrolled in the ATS as a second subaltern in the ATS and was later promoted to Junior Commander, the equivalent of Captain.

She began her training as a mechanic in March 1945 (aged 18). She undertook a driving and vehicle maintenance course at Aldershot, qualifying on April 14. During that time she remained a resident of Windsor Castle and returned there in the evenings.

TheDaddy 08-02-2023 17:34
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36145458)
Elizabeth spent WW2 in Windsor and joined the Auxiliary Territorial Service after she turned 18. Many wanted the royals to flee to Canada but they did not.
Believe he means the Queen Mother

Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36145461)
King George VI with his wife(future Queen Mother) remained at Buckingham House during WWII. Our future Queen (Princess Elizabeth aged 13) also remained but was evacuated to Windsor Castle in 1940 so still in Country. On reaching 18 she enrolled in the ATS as a second subaltern in the ATS and was later promoted to Junior Commander, the equivalent of Captain.

She began her training as a mechanic in March 1945 (aged 18). She undertook a driving and vehicle maintenance course at Aldershot, qualifying on April 14. During that time she remained a resident of Windsor Castle and returned there in the evenings.
The Queen mother made two statements at the time which resonated with the nation, first that she and the children wouldn't leave the country without the King and that the King would never leave and secondly that she felt she could look the people of the east end in the eye after Buckingham Palace was bombed, the second statement still stirs things in me as I'm an eastend boy whose great grandfather died prematurely from the effects of what he was asked to do during the blitz

Sephiroth 08-02-2023 19:11
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36145014)
Nah, he's just a complete twa* ...
Farage is a great man.

TheDaddy 08-02-2023 19:18
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36145473)
Farage is a great man.
Literally nothing he promised has happened (often the opposite btw), that's a prerequisite for being considered great imo

Maggy 09-02-2023 09:39
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36145014)
Nah, he's just a complete twa* ...
:p::p::p::p:

1andrew1 09-02-2023 10:05
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Good article here on why we have no suitable jets for Ukraine.

Quote:
Decades of cuts to the UK armed forces have left the Royal Air Force a runt of its former self with far too few planes, pilots and instructors to teach new talent.

Ukraine's air force is in desperate need of multi-role jets - aircraft that can fight in the air, such as by taking out missiles or attacking enemy aircraft and bomb targets on the ground.

The Royal Air Force had exactly the right kind of airframe for such a task and had enough in stock to be able to offer some away to a friendly nation in need - the Tornado GR4.

Unfortunately, all of those aircraft were retired from service four years ago to save money.

It all makes any talk of the UK giving fast jets to Ukraine sound hollow, potentially raising false hopes at a time when the Ukrainian military just needs credible answers.

An RAF source said it was nonsense to think the UK could offer fast jets to Ukraine.

"Tranche 1 [Typhoon] are just training aircraft no good for combat," the source said.

"The Tornado is a fantastic jet, but too difficult to maintain, operate and they will now be in disrepair or mothballs. Going nowhere for months."

Anything else would be "too expensive, complicated, we don't have any spare".
https://news.sky.com/story/rishi-sun...acity-12806431

Hugh 09-02-2023 10:12
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
I wondered about that - the current operational fighter aircraft of the RAF are Typhoons FGR4s and Lightning F35Bs; can’t see us giving any of them away, and the training time (pilots and ground crew) would be too long anyway.

1andrew1 09-02-2023 10:25
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36145497)
I wondered about that - the current operational fighter aircraft of the RAF are Typhoons FGR4s and Lightning F35Bs; can’t see us giving any of them away, and the training time (pilots and ground crew) would be too long anyway.
Can other countries help? Is it back to equipment they are used to from their ex-Iron Curtain neighbours?

peanut 09-02-2023 10:56
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
This country is fecked but they still find money to help fund a war and to make ourselves a bigger target in the process. What a joke. Surely it should be a collective NATO response to what we can and can't do to provide or supply. Why does UK always have to be first in the queue to butt into everything that goes on.

Pierre 09-02-2023 11:11
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36145494)
Good article here on why we have no suitable jets for Ukraine.


https://news.sky.com/story/rishi-sun...acity-12806431
Ground attack Tornados were retired along with the Harrier because they were uneconomical and couldn't be upgraded.

The Typhoon, originally an air superiority jet, has effectively been upgraded to a 4.5gen aircraft has now also taken over the Tornado's ground attack capability.

And obviously we have the F35's

But both these aircraft are just too expensive, complicated and valuable to be given away.

If the Ukraine want ground attack capability they'd be better off with Reaper drones.

1andrew1 09-02-2023 13:26
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36145503)
Ground attack Tornados were retired along with the Harrier because they were uneconomical and couldn't be upgraded.

The Typhoon, originally an air superiority jet, has effectively been upgraded to a 4.5gen aircraft has now also taken over the Tornado's ground attack capability.

And obviously we have the F35's

But both these aircraft are just too expensive, complicated and valuable to be given away.

If the Ukraine want ground attack capability they'd be better off with Reaper drones.
What you and Sky News say makes sense but the question is why Sunak said nothing is off the table? To demoralise Russia? To put pressure on France and other NATO members?

Also, just flagging it's Ukraine, not the Ukraine.

Hugh 09-02-2023 13:51
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36145510)
What you and Sky News say makes sense but the question is why Sunak said nothing is off the table? To demoralise Russia? To put pressure on France and other NATO members?

Also, just flagging it's Ukraine, not the Ukraine.
He’s sending positive vibes, rather than just saying "no, we don’t have anything you could use"…

pip08456 09-02-2023 18:39
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36145513)
He’s sending positive vibes, rather than just saying "no, we don’t have anything you could use"…
He's also said the UK will begin training Ukrainian pilots.What will they be training on?

Sephiroth 09-02-2023 19:01
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36145502)
This country is fecked but they still find money to help fund a war and to make ourselves a bigger target in the process. What a joke. Surely it should be a collective NATO response to what we can and can't do to provide or supply. Why does UK always have to be first in the queue to butt into everything that goes on.
Might a collective NATO response risk a greater chance of WWII in one for or another?

---------- Post added at 19:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36145510)
What you and Sky News say makes sense but the question is why Sunak said nothing is off the table? To demoralise Russia? To put pressure on France and other NATO members?

Also, just flagging it's Ukraine, not the Ukraine.
Thank goodness it's not the UK!

Hugh 09-02-2023 19:53
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36145543)
He's also said the UK will begin training Ukrainian pilots.What will they be training on?
Simulators, like RAF & Navy pilots do…

https://des.mod.uk/fighter-heralds-a...-jet-training/

https://www.inavateonthenet.net/news...aining-options

Or the basic training on Prefects, Texas T1s, and Hawk T2s.

Chris 09-02-2023 19:56
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
A lot of the training NATO fast jet pilots receive isn’t type specific. They eventually qualify on the jet they’re going to specialise on but prior to that is all the basic flight training and then a lot of tactical stuff that’s the same regardless.

Mr K 09-02-2023 20:53
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Maybe we could do an exchange with Ukraine. Our fighter pilots for their plumbers, it's a win win.

Damien 09-02-2023 21:49
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
From the sounds of it, we don't think there is a realistic prospect of giving them planes until soon but we will go ahead anyway with a view that post-war Ukraine will need an army sharpish to avoid further invasions.

Hugh 09-02-2023 21:52
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36145561)
Maybe we could do an exchange with Ukraine. Our fighter pilots for their plumbers, it's a win win.
Since it takes over four years at a cost of over £4,000,000, to train a fast jet jockey, let’s not… ;)

Chris 09-02-2023 22:18
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36145571)
From the sounds of it, we don't think there is a realistic prospect of giving them planes until soon but we will go ahead anyway with a view that post-war Ukraine will need an army sharpish to avoid further invasions.
There’s a rapidly developing received wisdom that we can’t give them Typhoons because they’d be vulnerable to Russian surface-air missiles, we have limited ability to send the necessary repair/logistics with them, and in any case we could only supply the oldest ‘tranche 1’ model which only has limited ground attack capability.

I am however seeing some commentators pointing out that Ukrainians flying Typhoons would be in no greater peril from Russian SAMs than those flying the Soviet era planes they’re using right now, that T1 Typhoons operated by the UK have Paveway 2 guided bombs which are still and uplift from Ukraine’s present capability (T3s and F35s can deploy Paveway 4), and that while the UK might spare 24 T1s at a push, that number could be bolstered by Germany that also has T1s it will eventually phase out, as could Italy and possibly Spain.

Paul 10-02-2023 02:58
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36145547)
Might a collective NATO response risk a greater chance of WWII ...
I think you may have missed it, I believe WWII finished around 80 years ago. ;)

Mad Max 11-02-2023 20:36
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36145593)
I think you may have missed it, I believe WWII finished around 80 years ago. ;)

:D

1andrew1 22-02-2023 22:02
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Interesting conclusion from Threshed Thought (aka Mike Martin)
Quote:
...Except that this year, the Ukrainians have to win.

They cannot let this drag on into 2024 - the year of the US presidential election.

Far too risky.

So we have another few weeks of attrition against the Russian attacks, and then a Ukrainian armoured offensive, probably in the south.

And they have to win. In 2023.

ENDS
https://twitter.com/ThreshedThought/...76681793699840

1andrew1 14-03-2023 12:33
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
A news item backing up Threshed Thought's above tweets:
Quote:
Ron DeSantis Says Protecting Ukraine Is Not a Key U.S. Interest

The Florida governor, on Tucker Carlson’s Fox News show, broke with Republicans to attack President Biden’s foreign policy and align more closely with Donald Trump as he weighs a presidential bid.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/13/u...e=articleShare

Chris 14-03-2023 18:05
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Russian fighter jet harasses and damages a US surveillance drone in the Black Sea; USAF initiates controlled crash landing to destroy it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64957792

No doubt tempers are fraying in the Russian military, given how much they’re losing to US/NATO armaments in Ukraine. This, however, is extremely reckless of them and I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s some harsh words over the back channels tonight.

Pierre 15-03-2023 08:41
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36148259)
A news item backing up Threshed Thought's above tweets:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/13/u...e=articleShare
I listened to his reply to Tucker Carlson. He didn’t say he wouldn’t support Ukraine, he just ruled out US troops being involved.

And he also ruled out, jets and long range missiles.

He supports pushing back Russia, to their border and no more, he does nor support any incursion by Ukraine into Russia.

Chris 15-03-2023 13:18
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36148287)
I listened to his reply to Tucker Carlson. He didn’t say he wouldn’t support Ukraine, he just ruled out US troops being involved.

And he also ruled out, jets and long range missiles.

He supports pushing back Russia, to their border and no more, he does nor support any incursion by Ukraine into Russia.
In other words he’s refusing to back things that nobody thinks Ukraine should do, and things Ukraine itself does not want - with the exception of ATACMS and F16s, which is moot because the US will give them to Ukraine long before the next presidential election anyway.

It’s tough talking for the benefit of the Trump wing of the party which in reality doesn’t much change his previously expressed position and even if he won both the nomination and then the election would be unlikely to alter the US’s posture towards Ukraine anyway.

1andrew1 16-03-2023 17:04
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Poland to send at least four MiG-29 fighter jets to Ukraine

Poland becomes the first NATO member country to fulfil the Ukrainian government's increasingly urgent requests for warplanes.

"Firstly, literally within the next few days, we will hand over, as far as I remember, four aircraft to Ukraine in full working order," Polish President Andrzej Duda said on Thursday.

"The rest are being prepared, serviced."

It makes Poland the first NATO member country to fulfil the Ukrainian government's increasingly urgent requests for warplanes.

Ukraine's president Volodymyr Zelenskyy has repeatedly said his country needs jets to effectively fight back against Russia's invasion.

Both the UK and US have ruled out sending F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine.
https://news.sky.com/story/poland-to...raine-12835338

Pierre 17-03-2023 09:17
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36148361)
Quote:
Both the UK and US have ruled out sending F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine
Well the UK has definitely ruled sending F-16s, as we don't have any.

Chris 17-03-2023 10:17
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Just in case anyone was wondering about the likely diplomatic calibre of an independent Scotland in situations like the Russia-Ukraine war, here’s SNP leadership candidate Humza Yousaf meeting a room full of Ukrainian women refugees and asking them “where are all the men?”

Chris 17-03-2023 16:26
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Well this is inconvenient. For Vlad, that is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64992727

Quote:
The International Criminal Court (ICC) has issued an arrest warrant for Russian President Vladimir Putin.
The court alleges he is responsible for war crimes, including the unlawful deportation of children from Ukraine to Russia.
Obviously he’s not about to hand himself over but it does mean he’s going to have to be careful which countries he travels to for the rest of his life. And hope that nobody at any point accidentally helps him to land in a country willing to arrest him and hand him over. That would be most unfortunate.

pip08456 17-03-2023 16:42
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36148391)
Well this is inconvenient. For Vlad, that is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64992727



Obviously he’s not about to hand himself over but it does mean he’s going to have to be careful which countries he travels to for the rest of his life. And hope that nobody at any point accidentally helps him to land in a country willing to arrest him and hand him over. That would be most unfortunate.
I think his future visit to the next G20 meeting has now been cancelled.

Vid of the ICC announcement.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/stat...57491320061957

Also worth mentioning one of the other arrest warrants.
Quote:
Maria Lvova-Belova, Russian 'commissioner for children', for illegal deportation and illegal transfer of Ukrainian children to Russia.
I think there could be a few more.

Hugh 21-03-2023 16:49
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
1 Attachment(s)
https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...3&d=1679417320

Chris 21-03-2023 18:28
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
I wonder how many of these men will be ‘persuaded’ to sign a contract and remain in uniform. The Russians are absolutely desperate for cannon fodder, I can’t see them letting thousands of men demobilise so easily, whatever promises have been made.

pip08456 31-03-2023 21:42
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36148580)
I wonder how many of these men will be ‘persuaded’ to sign a contract and remain in uniform. The Russians are absolutely desperate for cannon fodder, I can’t see them letting thousands of men demobilise so easily, whatever promises have been made.
They appear to have that covered.

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/03/...says/?swcfpc=1

Quote:
Olga Romanova, head of the Russia Behind Bars organization, confirms what Ukrainian military sources have been reporting since the end of last year: women prisoners in Russia are being sent to Ukraine to fill the depleted ranks of both the Wagner PMC and the Russian regular army.

She says she has been hearing about such things since the end of 2022 but now has additional evidence in the form of sightings of special trains carrying women from prisons and prison camps in the southern parts of the Russian Federation to Ukraine.
In other news, you gotta love the Britidh sense of humour.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...7&d=1680295229

TheDaddy 01-04-2023 00:06
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36149049)
They appear to have that covered.
Yes, losing their **** whilst Ukraine loses it's best and brightest at a slightly slower rate...

joglynne 01-04-2023 10:02
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
They must also be saving money by emptying their prisons. So a win win for Russia's cash flow.

Chris 01-04-2023 10:08
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36149062)
Yes, losing their **** whilst Ukraine loses it's best and brightest at a slightly slower rate...
Ukraine’s high command still seems to think the gains are worth the losses. It’s a dreadful calculation to have to make but unavoidable in the circumstances. It’s also worth noting that Russia isn’t just losing people in Bakhmut, however poorly trained - it is losing equipment, lots of it. This is not so easily replaced as touring prisons or press-ganging peasants from the far east. However, on the human calculation, even Russia can’t quickly replace 5,000 killed or seriously wounded per week, every week for months on end. Their last desperate tactic has been to use human waves to overwhelm Ukraine’s defences and this hasn’t worked, even though they have been throwing their people into the meat grinder far faster than they can replace them.

TheDaddy 02-04-2023 03:02
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joglynne (Post 36149070)
They must also be saving money by emptying their prisons. So a win win for Russia's cash flow.
Well there is talk of them not being able to pay the soldiers anymore so perhaps those carefully harvested reserves have run out :shrug:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36149071)
Ukraine’s high command still seems to think the gains are worth the losses. It’s a dreadful calculation to have to make but unavoidable in the circumstances. It’s also worth noting that Russia isn’t just losing people in Bakhmut, however poorly trained - it is losing equipment, lots of it. This is not so easily replaced as touring prisons or press-ganging peasants from the far east. However, on the human calculation, even Russia can’t quickly replace 5,000 killed or seriously wounded per week, every week for months on end. Their last desperate tactic has been to use human waves to overwhelm Ukraine’s defences and this hasn’t worked, even though they have been throwing their people into the meat grinder far faster than they can replace them.
There is a vicious rumour the T50 is about to make an appearance, things must be bad and they'll get worse from next week when Japan bans the export of metal and electronic components to them

I like the way twitters algorithm has downgraded ukraine as misinformation since elmo bought it too

Hom3r 03-04-2023 12:26
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
I think this war will drag out until the west joins in are Putin is ousted.

Hugh 04-04-2023 16:44
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
https://wapo.st/3U5UBrW

Quote:
Finland joins NATO, doubling alliance’s land border with Russia

Finland formally joined the North Atlantic Treaty Organization on Tuesday, a historic shift for a country that once insisted it was safer outside the military alliance and a sign of how Russian President Vladimir Putin’s gamble in Ukraine is upending the post-Cold War order.
Finnish membership will double NATO’s land border with Russia, adding more than 800 miles. It will also bolster the alliance’s presence around the Baltic Sea and enhance its position in the Arctic.
To justify his unprovoked attack on Ukraine, Putin cited the possibility of NATO expansion. Now, his war has brought a bigger, stronger NATO to his door.

“I am tempted to say, maybe this is the one thing that we can thank Mr. Putin for,” U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said in Brussels on Tuesday.
Russia’s invasion has caused “many countries to believe that they have to do more, to look out for their own defense and to make sure they can deter possible Russian aggression going forward,” he said.

Russia’s response on Tuesday was muted.
“We will be watching closely what is going on in Finland, how the NATO alliance will use Finnish territory in terms of deploying weapons, systems and infrastructure there, which will be close to our borders and therefore threaten us,” Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said in his daily briefing to journalists. “Depending on this, measures will be taken".

jfman 04-04-2023 17:11
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
And that’s why Ukraine’s best and brightest are going to the meat grinder. An easy decision in Langley.

Hugh 04-04-2023 17:12
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36149224)
And that’s why Ukraine’s best and brightest are going to the meat grinder. An easy decision in Langley.
Easier decision in Kyiv - the other option was to be subsumed by Russia…

jfman 04-04-2023 17:18
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36149225)
Easier decision in Kyiv - the other option was to be subsumed by Russia…
Unfortunately not a decision Zelensky’s conscript army was allowed to make for themselves, of course.

Chris 04-04-2023 17:19
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36149224)
And that’s why Ukraine’s best and brightest are going to the meat grinder. An easy decision in Langley.
Yeah, I’m sure the desire not to have their language and culture erased, or watch their wives and daughters getting raped by gangs of Russian mobiks has had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it. Those Ukrainian lads are only heading down to Bakhmut at gunpoint.

Hugh 04-04-2023 17:31
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36149227)
Unfortunately not a decision Zelensky’s conscript army was allowed to make for themselves, of course.
Do you mean just like the U.K. and the USA during WW1, WW2, and the Korean War?

Conscription is normal practice when an existential threat is happening to your country…

jfman 04-04-2023 17:45
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36149229)
Yeah, I’m sure the desire not to have their language and culture erased, or watch their wives and daughters getting raped by gangs of Russian mobiks has had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it. Those Ukrainian lads are only heading down to Bakhmut at gunpoint.
What about the men whose wives and daughters are over here, never to return?

---------- Post added at 17:41 ---------- Previous post was at 17:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36149233)
Do you mean just like the U.K. and the USA during WW1, WW2, and the Korean War?

Conscription is normal practice when an existential threat is happening to your country…
I lose track are we back at all powerful Russia that could march on Berlin within weeks or Russia on the brink of defeat if only Europe would donate more American weapons?

Here I thought the notion of young men being sent to the slaughter in the name of competing global ideologies died out after Vietnam but I guess as long as it’s not American blood dying for their interests that’s fine.

---------- Post added at 17:45 ---------- Previous post was at 17:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 36149131)
I think this war will drag out until the west joins in are Putin is ousted.
It’ll never end. Ukraine ends up a hollow shell of a state acting as a de-facto NATO outpost. It’s women and children in Europe and it’s men in graves.

America will hyper-privatise everything to US multinationals to pay off the ever increasing amounts of debt it is accumulating.

Damien 04-04-2023 17:49
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
So do you think Ukraine should have just allowed Russia to take their country?

Chris 04-04-2023 18:04
Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36149243)
So do you think Ukraine should have just allowed Russia to take their country?
J.F. is trapped in a great powers mindset, pretty much like Russia itself. Minor states have no agency, they are only allowed to be pawns on someone else’s chessboard. The idea that the strategic interests of sovereign democracies might coincide and align just doesn’t compute.

In reality, the pattern of military training and equipping undertaken by Western nations between the 2014 and 2022 invasions shows pretty clearly that the USA/NATO/Collective West had no intentions of trying to destroy the Russian army if/when it tried to overrun Ukraine. The AFU was trained and equipped to fight an insurgency against a presumed Russian puppet regime. To the extent that Great Power Politics were at play, they were aimed at keeping Russia off balance, and no more.

Western nations have only moved to supply and train Ukraine with heavy weapons as it has become clear that Ukraine has the will and the capacity to fight. Notably, they are still not supplying Ukraine with systems that might *actually* destroy the Russian military (ATACMS long range artillery rockets, F-16 fighters, anything that can reach a significant distance into Russia itself and start taking out airfields and other strategic assets). Aid is confined to that necessary to push Russia back to the Feb 2022 ceasefire lines, while admitting the possibility that Ukraine may wish to go further, into the eastern Donbas and Crimea.

There is a happy strategic realignment in that Ukraine wishes to continue to exist and America would like to see Russia dissuaded from creating mischief in the west, leaving America free to think about China. However, if Putin were to order his forces out of Ukraine, the war would end there and then. It is Putin who is sending Russian people and equipment to destruction, not Joe Biden.


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