Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

https://metro.co.uk/2022/05/22/boris...gate-16687932/

Interesting observation from former FT editor Lionel Barber. He goes a bit OB in his last sentence. ;)
https://twitter.com/search?q=%22Simo...ertical=trends

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

More media bluff about the report being more bad than receiving a fine and, if there was evidence, there would have been more fines, it’s not hard.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Suggestion is photos may be leaked by junior civil servants unhappy at being fined.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...hotos-27038571

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

No 10 now do admit they requested the meeting: https://twitter.com/AlexofBrown/stat...96675551821826

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I’m shocked they lied/denied this. Shocked I tells ya.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Who cares? :zzz:

The PM commissioned the report, he can request what he likes about it.

It’s just desperate nonsense by folk still trying to bury Johnson, this is tactic 2, given multiple fines angle didn’t work and neither will this.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Because it's just more pointless lying. They even had the front page of the Daily Mail saying Sue Gray was playing politics and lying about not calling the meeting, a few hours later it's admitted she didn't and it was No 10.

And he if can request what he likes about it then they should stop pretending it's independent.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I really had hoped that the fines and Sue Gray Report would lead to No 10 cleaning up its act. Whether by incompetence or design, No 10 continues to fail to provide the open and honest governance that the country needs.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Didn’t you know, lying was a common politician trait, it’s sad agreed but this is a nothing burger.

Report will be published but I don’t see how it can be more devastating for Johnson when he hasn’t received any further fines and they (the MET police), would have had all the evidence, Gray’s insights before any of it get in the public domain.

Those believing there is some juicy intel that will be the golden nugget to Johnson’s demise are going to be sorely disappointed, again.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I'm sure Mr Case will be given a knighthood to compensate/ keep his mouth shut, these people don't live in the real world, some sycophant apologist was on the radio earlier saying we have to understand the pressure and unimaginable hours they were working, well just using myself as an example and not the healthcare workers who had it hardest of all, three people in my office died, I was already doing 60+ hours a week before I had to cover additional hours and yet I managed it without getting pissed every night in the office

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The one thing I cannot dispute is the No. 10 Comms team, they’re a complete shambles and someone is still leaking stuff to the press.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The fish rots from the head as they say.

In the absence of a principled leader - presumably who would throw them under the bus with Simon Case and all the junior officials - why would anyone expect competence and allegiance?

At least there’s some parachutes out there for those on the media/politics merry go round.

https://www.cityam.com/former-downin...oin-bloomberg/

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-05-23/...uring-lockdown

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I really don't know why No 10 keeps making these poor decisions but I fear jfman is right.

Nadhim Zahawi now has a reputation as a Johnson stooge after doing those Sunday morning interviews in which he denied he knew who called the meeting with Sue Gray.

It's something that he would have been briefed on; you don't turn up to these shows off your own back without preparation. I just don't know why No 10 is behaving in such an incompetent manner. Just have him say yes we called it, we'll publish the minutes, can we talk about how we're improving governance and tackling the cost of living crisis. The whole government mechanism even today seems to be averse to openness and honesty.

Whatever you might think about Cummings, he was right in predicting leaks of photos. I suspect those junior civil servants tipped him off. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...hotos-27038571

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

This is the party he wasn't fined for. Probably helps out Starmer these pictures have come to light.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Yep, if this is acceptable, then all bets are off here as far as Starmer is concerned. I would love to see the timestamps of those photos to understand how long he was at the non-party.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Not really, it’s not a party, looks like a toast to someone leaving in the office at the end of the day, in one photo, you can see PMs red box and it’s nothing new, we don’t already know about. Still much of a nothing burger, point has passed Tory MPs will dispose of this PM.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

As per the ITV story, it was Lee Cain's leaving do - which others at the same event have got a FPN for.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I suspect even Johnson’s most staunch acolytes such as Zahawi would struggle to argue that what Starmer has done (and been cleared once by the police) is worse than this.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Starmer claims he was eating at the end of the day. I don't see how beer and curry are bad but multiple bottles of champagne and wine are ok.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Indeed.

As I said at the time when Johnson wasn't fined for this and the other parties, this strongly suggest that Starmer is unlikely to be fined either. Johnson apologists like the Daily Mail need to brace themselves for this.

---------- Post added at 17:16 ---------- Previous post was at 17:14 ----------

Because Starmer is held to higher standards than Johnson is the only explanation I can muster.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

In fairness to the Daily Mail they’ve only ever deployed it as whataboutery. They’re fully aware there’s nothing to it - the purpose has only ever been to muddy the water in the hope that a strategy can emerge that saves Johnson.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Here comes your ridiculous whataboutery notion again. :rolleyes:

Johnson isn’t going anywhere, regardless of what strategy Daily Mail deploys. Tory MPs moment to oust this PM, is gone.

---------- Post added at 17:31 ---------- Previous post was at 17:29 ----------

Well, you’ve already proven you lacked knowledge on the legal processes on investigations, so your “mustering” standards don’t amount to anything relevant.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I don’t really see how you can considering the notion that this is a diversionary tactic as “ridiculous”. On the last page of the thread you said it wasn’t unusual for politicians to be liars. Heaven forbid they, and journalists of all people, would ever deploy whataboutery!

Johnson only survives because of the lack of obvious successor. Indeed, who wants to take the reigns as inflation hits 10%? Nobody. That doesn’t mean his days aren’t numbered when the time comes. Spineless Tories in marginals facing defeat at the next election will ensure he’s ousted, forgetting they were elected on his coat tails. He can go back to earning more money somewhere else and perhaps, perhaps credibility will return to his office.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Not fined, not guilty.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2022/05/15.jpg

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2022/05/16.jpg

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2022/05/17.jpg

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Probably because they stayed too long and made it into a party.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Actually, on reflection, I think this isn't good for Starmer. People are asking the Met why they didn't fine Boris Johnson for this, leaving Durham Police looking on hoping they don't get the same. Although it depends on the extent of the drinking at 'Beergate' as this picture is more damning than the one of Starmer but we don't know what else the Met knew about this event or what Durham know about that event.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The still images lack proper context, the MET Police have clearly seen them, so why no fine?

It sure looks like a quick toast to a departing colleague. The police would have sent questionnaires and got testimonials on this event. All statements and answers will have been cross examined for any discrepancies. So all depends what the other 7 people said in theirs, as to why they didn’t see fit to fine PM.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Yes, maybe, if he just came in and raised a glass then I can see why he wasn't fined. I don't really know the details here and I assume the Met police do.

I think the main problem for him is the statement he gave in Parliament saying all rules were followed when here it's clear they were not. Johnson can escape a fine if he wasn't really there for long but it's clear this was a social event unless he really is pretty bloody stupid.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Known round here as the “OB defence”.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Dom Cummings is spitting feathers on Twitter right now. Feels his former boss, should’ve been fined.

The source of the leaked pics?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Cummins would surely be number one suspect for leak

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Cummings said it was likely that junior civil servants who attended events and got fined when Johnson did would be likely to leak some pictures this week.

Well, this has happened. Cummings' theory has merit unless it's a cunning ruse!

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The main problem is that he said 'all guidelines were followed' to parliament so he lied. I can't see how he can get out of that one with those evidential photos.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Does the Forum think that Johnson knew that rule-breaking took place at No 10 when he made his statement to Parliament stating otherwise?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Because he and his supporters will claim he thought the guidelines were followed.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

He has not been fined for this event so he could say he meant, he followed the guidelines.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

He said guidelines were followed, not simply that he followed them.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Every day, Conservative MPs can give Johnson the boot so he can spend more time with his young family and write the Shakespeare biography he's been paid to write.

I think the latest this will happen would be after the two by elections in July. Given the nature of why those by-elections occurred, the Conservatives are unlikely to win them.

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:20 ----------

How can you prove he knew the guidelines weren't being followed without a recording of Johnson saying words to this effect or witnesses saying he did? This could get interesting if he trys to fire people.

---------- Post added at 19:28 ---------- Previous post was at 19:25 ----------

Johnson wishes!

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Anyway. David Davis has just said on Farage, all depends on the Privileges Committee who could decide regardless of what MET Police or Sue Gray report says, that he mislead Parliament.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Cummings will have more allies in No. 10 than Johnson has with his scorched earth policy of saving his own skin at any expense. If not the source of the leak, Dom will almost certainly know who the most likely candidates are. Depending on who Johnson’s successor is - he may also be fairly well connected enough to ensure his sources survive the transition.

Dom may be out, but he defo has more to offer some of the candidates for leadership of the Conservative Party.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I don’t think so.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

If any civil servants were wavering about sharing snaps of Partygate, as well as the valid reason you outlined, the following would prod them in that direction as well:

• Looming cuts of 90,000 staff.
• Those cuts being leaked to a tabloid before informing staff.
• JRM's passive-aggressive sniping at civil servants working from home.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The Times is reporting Johnson pressured Sue Gray to drop her report in the meeting: https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status...47678553169922

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

A farewell speech to a colleague clearly counts as a work event.

Some of those present clearly took it too far.

---------- Post added at 23:15 ---------- Previous post was at 23:12 ----------

He said he was told that all the guidelines were followed.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Old Boy, let's debate on the basis of what Johnson actually said as oppose to what you or I wished he had said.

Scroll down to the video at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61081386

Important post below from Lewis Goodall referencing the four ITV photos from 13 November 2020. The Metropolitan Police have fined some attendees on this date, making it an illegal party.

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/st...62197840633857

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Let’s face it, if 4 bottles of wine, 3 bottles of champagne and a bottle of gin on your desk shouts “normal day at the office” to you, you have a whole other set of problems.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Andrew, he stated originally that this is what he was told. He said it in Parliament. If he didn’t keep repeating ‘he was told’, it matters not, because that was clearly his understanding. A lot of this was going on behind his back, so clearly he was relying on what he had been told. He can’t be everywhere, and he is a busy man.

As for people being fined at the event Boris Johnson did attend, as far as he was concerned, it was a farewell speech. It’s what happens at work when someone leaves, so it was a work event.

If others were fined it’s because they stayed as it turned into more of a social event.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The phrase “I was told” is standard ministerial weasel wording, used precisely when said minister is saying stuff they know could well be untrue, so that if it eventually hits the fan they can claim they weren’t lying because they were misled.

There is, however, no way any sane person could have been credulous enough to believe that event wasn’t a party even if directly told it wasn’t one. You can take your pick out of lying, insanity or gullibility (or a combo, I’m not bothered - but at least one of them applies).

Getting bogged down in the technicalities of what constitutes a lie to parliament is precisely the smoke-screen that’s meant to fool us. As they say in Australia, Blind Freddie could see that was a party. That it occurred while people were forced to stay away from their dying loved ones is a national outrage. I can’t think of any senior minister, of any colour, who would have tried to brass out something even half as awful as this. Boris Johnson has got to go because I seriously dislike what the political state of our nation has become if he doesn’t.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Or you work in a pretty good office.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

You don't have a link for your quote. Even if he said that before, his final quote "I have satisfied myself that the guidelines were followed at all times" is sufficient for my purposes.

If you think that table of booze did not suggest a party was imminent or in progress, I would have difficulty in trusting in your eyesight or common sense.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

:tu:

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

The Met police investigation comes across as a sham. Reported in April before the Met concluded its findings:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTLgTTWW...jpg&name=small

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Agreed.

The trouble is, Johnson saw that lashings of hypocrisy, knowingly issuing incorrect information, false equivalence and what aboutery served him very well in his political campaigns. So he has seen no need to change course from this campaigning style even when he's in power.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Johnson's two little helpers in action again here I see. The Express journalists must be cringing as they report the story as stating that the Met found Johnson broke no rules. Meanwhile, the Mail pretends nothing happened as it focuses on the implications of a possible rail strike.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1653378902

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I’m not so sure it’s the state country will have become as much as the state it is in.

Johnson has been rewarded his entire life for lying and having no integrity. The fact that he could ascend to the highest political office in the land despite obvious limited capabilities is embarrassing in and of itself.

A TV quiz show panellist buffoon who was enabled by the media and elements of his own party throughout. Purging from the party any sensible factions that remained to give of a reactionary, populist Government with neither the capability nor credibility to govern.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

A source present at the 13 November party claims that Johnson instigated it. (That's the party featured in yesterday's ITV photos.)
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/bo...-toast-1647160

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

:tu:

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

More straw-clutching that falls apart when it meets the facts. This time it's the hapless Shapps who steps forwards to bat for BoJo.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...tying-27047663

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Don't be ridiculous, Andrew. It is quite normal for organisations to have a fairwell presentation with alcohol to send them off. As such, it would have been regarded as a work event, but clearly once doneand with the speeches over, a number of them appear to have stayed on and it became a social event, which explains why only some of them were fined. Certainly, by all accounts, the PM made his 20 minute speech and then returned to his work.

I know that you are looking for any excuse to see the PM stripped of his office, but a little bit of logic and perspective would not go amiss in your posts on this subject.

If the Gray report findings are different to what I have described, I will certainly reassess, but you have already made up your mind. In your desperation, you will be calling for an inquiry into the police investigation next.

---------- Post added at 12:28 ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 ----------

Weren't there quite a few people at this event - about 60, I believe? So, no, that was not an excessive amount of alcohol.

So, given that the PM wasn't fined, the police are wrong now, are they?

---------- Post added at 12:30 ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 ----------

I don't care what you call it, that is what he told parliament, and if he took that advice on board, how did he lie?

---------- Post added at 12:33 ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 ----------

The Mail is right to be reporting the real news.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

This is definitely the argument Johnson should use.

---------- Post added at 12:34 ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 ----------

They did 14 front pages on Starmer having a beer and curry.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Not during the height of the pandemic it wasn't!

You will soon be on the wrong side of history if you continue to defend the indefensible.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

And as Grant Schapps is quoted as saying in that report:

"Sometimes, occasionally things get reported which aren’t entirely accurate.”

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

:D:D:D

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Maybe they thought that was proportionate when weighed against all the nonsense being spoken about the PM.

But the reality is, neither was a big story. This shows how easy it is to wind people up, and Starmer will live to regret that he made such a fuss about this.

---------- Post added at 12:44 ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 ----------

Not where most people were working from home, of course not. But government officials were required to be present for duty and run the country.

I'm not on the wrong side of history for saying we should hear all the evidence before rushing to judgement. That rule should always apply.

Things are not always as they first seem. That's what juries are reminded of before they start hearing cases.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Proportionate whataboutery.

Reporting to deceive the public rather than inform.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Another Final Nail in the Johnson Coffin As if one was needed. :rolleyes:

BBC2 7pm tonight.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

If the police say he didn't commit a further offence surely that is the end of it, whatever meetings he attended where within the rules if not he would have got further fpn's .

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

That's his opinion.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Ooft if the state broadcaster have the knives out it’s a bad day.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

If you believe Old Boy and his assertions about the future of the BBC, what have they got to loose? Nadine has got it in for them anyway so why go down without a fight?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

It's hard to disagree with such profound insight as this.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

What makes the state broadcaster fundamentally dishonest is that they didn’t pull this together overnight, or over the weekend.

They’ll have sat on this for months. Turning the same blind eye as the state police.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

There’s nothing fundamentally dishonest about sitting on a news report about potential lawbreaking, while police proceedings relating to the incident are active. There are laws about that.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

That’s assumes they didn’t know back in the days where the Met weren’t investigating (prior to Jan 22).

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Well I guess tonight when they air the report, we may discover the answer to that.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Anyway enough of this deflection, what's happening with Starmer

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Drafting his resignation.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Good, bit of luck he's not the only one, perhaps bozo can do his in Latin, just to keep the pantomime interesting

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Having a beer with his dinner hopefully.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

If Durham police get the timing right Starmer could resign whilst this is still going on making it look even more absurd Johnson hasn’t.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

It's because the left of centre BBC prefer the drip-drip effect, whkch makes it all drag on forever.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

:rofl: 12 days on the front page of the Mail...

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

A drip drip drip… without any dripping?

The BBC have been as complicit as the Met in keeping this story down. ITV News have forced their hand with the photos.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I know, but they are motivated by sales. The so called 'neutral' BBC should rise above that if it's publically funded.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

How is 'rising above' a news story being 'neutral'?

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

It’s not in the public interest to know the current PM is a liar who misled Parliament :D

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

They're motivated by something and it's not sales

Sadly there are some people that genuinely think that

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Who cares if it had been 50 days. Their persistence ended up with a police investigation having to be properly and thoroughly reestablished, as it should have been with all the lies Starmer had told.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Always a sign of a healthy democracy - opposition leaders put under criminal investigation because of the ruling party aligned press regurgitate an old story for which he was previously cleared around election time.

The other day someone questioned how well my posts would age - well there's some in this thread that have certainly aged like a fine milk. When Starmer is cleared even more so.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Give up with the silly predictions: you predicted Brexit would be stopped. It hasn’t been.

He wasn’t cleared the first time, because a thorough investigation had not been conducted at all. Now it is being done, as it should. You cannot have a two tier policing system just because you like one guy better than the other.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

Your view of thorough is entirely subjective. And yes you are right, I got something wrong once in 2016, I’m not entirely sure that means my opinion on any other matter six years later can be entirely discounted. When Starmer is cleared can we call it 1-1?

I don’t even like Starmer.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

New photo: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...-no10-27055402

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2022/05/18.jpg

This one seems to be new and was NOT investigated by the police.

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I think jfman predicted this diversionary story!
https://news.sky.com/story/partygate...ected-12620711

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

I think this one is new but I suspect they’ll need a couple of weeks worth of dead cats :D

Re: Partygate & Beergate discussion
 

While you two prattle on about putting the world to right, or pretending to, any cost of living package is welcome, I think Joe public care more about financial help than stupid lockdown laws being breached by either side. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:46 ----------

Looks like a random persons table, sorry but this is piss poor evidence.