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Mad Max

03-09-2021 21:59

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092040)

I'm totally realistic and far from idealistic. The Brexit situation is far from ideal. But the way I'd play it (admittedly sat at my office chair at home) is to squeeze Ireland. The threat of scrapping the NI Protocol is a threat to the Irish economy, something they dread more than anything else (perhaps other than having to put corporation tax up!). It's then a blinking game.

I want my Guvmin to play this right by not allowing th NI Protocol to stand in its present form.

mrmistoffelees

03-09-2021 22:12

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092022)

Clearly, you believe that you know better than the majority of the British public, who want Brexit to be a success.

You really need to get over yourself. Time will prove me right and you wrong. In the end, the evidence will be undeniable.

Once again, you are insulting me because you don’t actually like being challenged on your negative remainer views.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092024)

And I have not forgotten the technical issues either. We can overcome this problem, but the will needs to be there on the EU side. In the meantime, we could have a straight forward and secure system of packaging and labelling which would overcome the questions relating to the transitional period.

Nah, you are just in denial that we can ever make a success of Brexit. We will overcome these initial problems, one way or another, and then you will see all your predictions about Brexit come undone.

The more nonsense you spout now, the more it will all come back and haunt you in due course.

That’s OK. I can wait.

As before there will be a technological solution but it’s not available YET

We may well end making a success of Brexit and contrary to your beliefs I hope we do, as the alternative would be very grim indeed.

Let us not forget, many brexiteers have stated repeatedly that we don’t need the EU or that they needed us more than we needed them. These seem people are now whinging that rhe EU aren’t playing fair.

Well, nows the UK’s chance to prove it doesn’t need the EU. I have to say however that it’s not going very well so far.

1andrew1

03-09-2021 23:33

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092040)

I'm totally realistic and far from idealistic. The Brexit situation is far from ideal. But the way I'd play it (admittedly sat at my office chair at home) is to squeeze Ireland. The threat of scrapping the NI Protocol is a threat to the Irish economy, something they dread more than anything else (perhaps other than having to put corporation tax up!). It's then a blinking game.

I want my Guvmin to play this right by not allowing th NI Protocol to stand in its present form.

If you're being realistic and not idealistic, what can we offer to Ireland in return for them agreeing to a worse Northern Ireland Protocol? They've got the EU behind them. The EU can make things difficult for our exporters to the Continent if Ireland felt we were acting in a perfidious manner.

Realistically, what cards do we honestly hold that we've not played yet?

TheDaddy

03-09-2021 23:42

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092022)

You really need to get over yourself. Time will prove me right and you wrong. In the end, the evidence will be undeniable.

How much time, Rees Smug reckons 50 years...

Sephiroth

03-09-2021 23:43

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092065)

If we dump the NI Protocol, the Irish economy will be in great danger. I suspect that's the only card we hold. EU retaliation would likely be punishment through repudiation/suspension of the trade deal. But at least the gloves will be off and we'll all know where we stand.

In particular, the GB/UK situation will be normalised.

1andrew1

03-09-2021 23:57

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092042)

Agreed - pretty much everyone in the UK wants it to be as successful as possible regardless of which party or way they voted in the referendum. But wishful thinking or blind faith hasn't and doesn't solve the Brexit Irish border issue.

---------- Post added at 22:57 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092068)

All I think we can offer Ireland in return for any concessions is international support on its low Corporation tax rate and perhaps some money for cross-border initiatives and a loan of Gareth Southgate. ;)

A hard border Irish border and the potential for terrorism which is a consequence of what you suggest is not normalising matters. And that's without the huge negative economic impacts coming from the situation. The EU would likely be on hand to bail out Ireland but who would support us?

I believe the situation you hope for is clearly unrealistic.

OLD BOY

04-09-2021 12:31

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092032)

That's all very interesting but 100% irrelevant. You constructed an entire argument around your misplaced belief that Johnson had criticised his own Brexit deal whereas he criticised May's. Seph acknowledged that Johnson had not criticised his own deal at the time as well and I even provided a link to the Br'Express article reporting his announcement of the deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092032)

The transitional period is over Old Boy. We left the Single Market and from 1st October we will be inspecting EU imports.

What a ridiculous thing to say! Of course the transitional period is not over! The whole deal has yet to be implemented (as you admitted in that very sentence (highlighted) and things are still having to settle down. There are still many issues to be resolved.

The Northern Ireland border issue is still going to take some months yet before we manage to make this work, for example.

---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092042)

Nope, as per usual you only selectively consider what you wish to reply to.

I’ll fully admit I’m a remainer, however if you bother to review my posts you’ll see that I’ve repeatedly said that now Brexit has been done we need to make it a success. That success however needs to be based on realism. Not head in the clouds dreaming as you demonstrated with your earlier posts regarding customs technology.

---------- Post added at 21:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------

As before there will be a technological solution but it’s not available YET

We may well end making a success of Brexit and contrary to your beliefs I hope we do, as the alternative would be very grim indeed.

Let us not forget, many brexiteers have stated repeatedly that we don’t need the EU or that they needed us more than we needed them. These seem people are now whinging that rhe EU aren’t playing fair.

Well, nows the UK’s chance to prove it doesn’t need the EU. I have to say however that it’s not going very well so far.

The EU is still posturing and trying to screw us into the ground. Only when all this jostling ends and we finally have an agreement that both sides agree with will normal relations start to be established.

Your point about technical solutions not yet being available is another lie being put about by those who want to see us fail. Of course they are there, and New Zealand have already found such a solution for their exports, as my link showed.

---------- Post added at 11:21 ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092065)

Seph has addressed that already. Ireland is not in the best position if we pull out.

---------- Post added at 11:22 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36092067)

How much time, Rees Smug reckons 50 years...

Don't tell me you are giving credence to that man in your desperation to prove yourself right! Now that is funny!

---------- Post added at 11:31 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092069)

Agreed - pretty much everyone in the UK wants it to be as successful as possible regardless of which party or way they voted in the referendum. But wishful thinking or blind faith hasn't and doesn't solve the Brexit Irish border issue.

---------- Post added at 22:57 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------

All I think we can offer Ireland in return for any concessions is international support on its low Corporation tax rate and perhaps some money for cross-border initiatives and a loan of Gareth Southgate. ;)

A hard border Irish border and the potential for terrorism which is a consequence of what you suggest is not normalising matters. And that's without the huge negative economic impacts coming from the situation. The EU would likely be on hand to bail out Ireland but who would support us?

I believe the situation you hope for is clearly unrealistic.

Crikey, you could have fooled me! I could almost hear your hands rubbing with glee at every single problem that we have had with leaving the EU!

Realistically, Ireland will have a real problem if we start refocussing our trade away from them, because we are their main trading partner. They have a lot to lose if we decrease our imports from them and increase agricultural trade with Australia and New Zealand, for example. And when we eventually get a trade deal with the US (which is unlikely with Biden in power), that would make things even worse for Ireland.

Obviously, Ireland is pushing for the best deal from their perspective, but if they push too far they will be miscalculating - big time.

TheDaddy

04-09-2021 13:24

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092095)

Don't tell me you are giving credence to that man in your desperation to prove yourself right!

Riiiiiiiight you're the one making bold statements about being proven right but when asked for some detail you can't manage it, you've been listening to bozo to long, he doesn't do detail either, might have just been nice to know if you thought you'd be proven right in any of our lifetimes or not

mrmistoffelees

04-09-2021 14:44

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092095)

You need to concentrate more, Andrew. It is not at all irrelevant. I have posted the tweet he sent out in that link. So he didn't like May's deal one bit. He realised, however, that the only way of getting Brexit done by the date he had promised was to remove the worst part of it - the backstop. Further changes would not have been possible to get this deal as he wanted within the timescale.

Of course he hailed the result of the changes he made, as he wanted the thing passed! But the tweet made clear he was having to lump it for the most part. I also recall reading Boris saying that other aspects of the deal could be changed over time once out of the EU.

---------- Post added at 11:11 ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 ----------

What a ridiculous thing to say! Of course the transitional period is not over! The whole deal has yet to be implemented (as you admitted in that very sentence (highlighted) and things are still having to settle down. There are still many issues to be resolved.

The Northern Ireland border issue is still going to take some months yet before we manage to make this work, for example.

---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------

The EU is still posturing and trying to screw us into the ground. Only when all this jostling ends and we finally have an agreement that both sides agree with will normal relations start to be established.

Your point about technical solutions not yet being available is another lie being put about by those who want to see us fail. Of course they are there, and New Zealand have already found such a solution for their exports, as my link showed.

---------- Post added at 11:21 ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 ----------

Seph has addressed that already. Ireland is not in the best position if we pull out.

---------- Post added at 11:22 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------

Don't tell me you are giving credence to that man in your desperation to prove yourself right! Now that is funny!

---------- Post added at 11:31 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

Crikey, you could have fooled me! I could almost hear your hands rubbing with glee at every single problem that we have had with leaving the EU!

Realistically, Ireland will have a real problem if we start refocussing our trade away from them, because we are their main trading partner. They have a lot to lose if we decrease our imports from them and increase agricultural trade with Australia and New Zealand, for example. And when we eventually get a trade deal with the US (which is unlikely with Biden in power), that would make things even worse for Ireland.

Obviously, Ireland is pushing for the best deal from their perspective, but if they push too far they will be miscalculating - big time.

My point about technical solutions is a lie ? When you yourself admit the required API is not yet available ? Never mind the surveillance/reimbursement systems which do not exist yet.

You need to get the complan dribbles wiped off your chin. You’re a mess

OLD BOY

04-09-2021 15:08

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36092101)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092103)

The API is simply a software bridge that enables two systems to talk to each other. It is not a technological barrier.

Every time you check information on an app on your mobile, you are using an API.

None of these problems are beyond our existing competencies. You are portraying all this as if it were science fiction.

And incidentally, your escalating rudeness is childish and betrays your increasing desperation to prove to everyone that we are doomed to failure.

Sephiroth

04-09-2021 15:28

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092103)

You shouldn't stoop to that kind of insult. OB has it completely right and all the necessary systems will sooer or later be in place.

mrmistoffelees

04-09-2021 15:38

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092106)

You shouldn't stoop to that kind of insult. OB has it completely right and all the necessary systems will sooer or later be in place.

No he doesn’t, he claims that they’re available now which they’re not.

That is a simple fact.

If you want to side with him and his delusions, have at it.

TheDaddy

04-09-2021 16:13

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092104)

If I wanted other people's opinions I wouldn't bother talking to you, I asked you a simple question that you've refused to answer, why is that I wonder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092106)

You shouldn't stoop to that kind of insult. OB has it completely right and all the necessary systems will sooer or later be in place.

Yes sooner or later, maybe within our lifetimes, maybe not

Paul	04-09-2021 17:48

Re: Britain outside the EU

I suggest a few people in here calm down.

Hugh	04-09-2021 17:56

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092104)

Not sure what you are talking about. I have provided links and explanations. You just don’t want to hear them.

The fact that you have not absorbed the information I have given does not justify you not accepting it, but I guess that’s the way it is.

We will just have to let this play out.

---------- Post added at 14:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------

The API is simply a software bridge that enables two systems to talk to each other. It is not a technological barrier.

Every time you check information on an app on your mobile, you are using an API.

None of these problems are beyond our existing competencies. You are portraying all this as if it were science fiction.

And incidentally, your escalating rudeness is childish and betrays your increasing desperation to prove to everyone that we are doomed to failure.

An API can be as simple, complex, or extremely complex - it doesn’t just connect systems, it can also be required to extract data (which could be hundreds or thousands of data fields, often with interdependencies) from a system (or multiple systems), validate that data (is it in the format required for the other system(s)), convert if required to the format(s) required by the other systems (and vice-versa), and then make sure the data integrity across multiple systems is maintained. At the same time, you have to ensure that any changes in the multiple issuing/receiving systems is under strict Change Control, as a minor change to a file or data format could cause major issues. Then you have to design the error-handling for all times that data is incorrect (after all the Business Analysis required to understand interdependencies between all the data fields, finding what can still be processed if data validation raises errors) and the resolution paths to fix and resume the data Extraction, Translate, & Loads between all the different systems. Are all the systems capable of real-time integration, or do some have to be batch processes, and if so, what is the periodicity of the batch runs, and how do you ensure data integrity between the feeds to/from batch systems and those with real-time updates?

Now multiply that by all the different systems used in different countries.

Can I ask what your experience in Systems Design, Systems Integration, or Technical Architecture is, please, which gives you the knowledge, experience, and background to summarily dismissed the complexity and duration of the work involved?

mrmistoffelees

04-09-2021 19:44

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092113)

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Sephiroth

04-09-2021 19:46

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092113)

Isn't the NI/GB/EIRE system the one that urgently needs doing?

Mad Max

04-09-2021 20:25

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092106)

You shouldn't stoop to that kind of insult. OB has it completely right and all the necessary systems will sooer or later be in place.

Well said.

OLD BOY

04-09-2021 20:57

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092107)

No he doesn’t, he claims that they’re available now which they’re not.

That is a simple fact.

If you want to side with him and his delusions, have at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36092108)

If I wanted other people's opinions I wouldn't bother talking to you, I asked you a simple question that you've refused to answer, why is that I wonder.

I have answered your questions. You just don’t understand the answers. My solution to that - watch and learn. It will all come to pass.

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092113)

Hugh, don’t be ridiculous. I did not say it was easy, I said the technology was there, which it is.

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:55 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092118)

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I don’t know what you’re clapping for. New Zealand has already implemented a technological solution. Hugh has not claimed, as you have, that the technology isn’t there. He merely said it would take time, which is not disputed. Your argument has come undone.

Hugh	04-09-2021 23:24

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

The API is simply a software bridge that enables two systems to talk to each other. It is not a technological barrier.

It’s not the technology that takes the time, it’s understanding and agreeing the requirements, designing the systems and interfaces, prototyping and testing those systems and interfaces, developing the full solution and interfaces, testing and implementing those systems and interfaces, regression testing the impact of any changes required to linked systems (a couple of loops of the last two steps when errors are found or changes required), and while all this is going on, requirements for system changes will being requested* as the world (political and economic) changes (new laws, standards, processes, etc.).

To give you a sense of timescales, the current Customs system (CHIEF) was suppose to have been retired in 2012 - in fact, it’s replacement, CDS, will be implemented at the end of March 2023; the "technology" is/was there, but it’s 11 years late.

And as for the NZ "technological solution", how does it deal with the cross-border foot and road traffic from Australia?

*and by requested, I mean demanded, usually by politicians

OLD BOY

05-09-2021 03:07

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092129)

You really don’t understand Systems Design & Development or Technical Architecture, do you?

Saying "the technology is there" makes it sound simple, which it isn’t - it took SpaceX 6 years to get their first successful launch (after multiple failures), and it’s first commercial launch took 12 years, but "the technology" already existed (it’s entire ethos is using COTS and existing testing technology to reduce cost and development time).

You stated

It’s not the technology that takes the time, it’s understanding and agreeing the requirements, designing the systems and interfaces, prototyping and testing those systems and interfaces, developing the full solution and interfaces, testing and implementing those systems and interfaces, regression testing the impact of any changes required to linked systems (a couple of loops of the last two steps when errors are found or changes required), and while all this is going on, requirements for system changes will being requested* as the world (political and economic) changes (new laws, standards, processes, etc.).

To give you a sense of timescales, the current Customs system (CHIEF) was suppose to have been retired in 2012 - in fact, it’s replacement, CDS, will be implemented at the end of March 2023; the "technology" is/was there, but it’s 11 years late.

And as for the NZ "technological solution", how does it deal with the cross-border foot and road traffic from Australia?

*and by requested, I mean demanded, usually by politicians

Don’t get carried away Hugh. All I said was that the technology was there.

Are you seriously disagreeing with this?

Are you seriously trying to compare this situation with launching a rocket?

I really think that some of you on this forum are overthinking this - big time!

TheDaddy

05-09-2021 05:12

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092123)

I have answered your questions. You just don’t understand the answers. My solution to that - watch and learn. It will all come to pass.

Questions? I've only asked one and you haven't answered it at all, in fact you've got out of your way not to answer it because you can't, you make these proclamations based on nothing

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092130)

and others are under thinking it, big time!

mrmistoffelees

05-09-2021 10:00

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092123)

Listen, it’s just the implementation that takes time. The technology is there already.

And while we work out how to implement, the grace period can be extended. It’s not rocket science.

You are the one who is delusional. You don’t have the capacity to understand that problems can be resolved. You just throw up your hands and give up.

What I have been putting forward is the government’s own solution. No government would come up with a solution that is pure science fiction.

---------- Post added at 19:52 ---------- Previous post was at 19:50 ----------

I have answered your questions. You just don’t understand the answers. My solution to that - watch and learn. It will all come to pass.

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------

Hugh, don’t be ridiculous. I did not say it was easy, I said the technology was there, which it is.

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:55 ----------

I don’t know what you’re clapping for. New Zealand has already implemented a technological solution. Hugh has not claimed, as you have, that the technology isn’t there. He merely said it would take time, which is not disputed. Your argument has come undone.

Oh Old Boy……..

Besides the original article which you selectively quoted from (you excluded the fact that reimbursement & surveillance technologies don’t exist yet… which is explicitly stated)

Have a read here pages 29-35

https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...toms_WEB_0.pdf

papa smurf

05-09-2021 10:11

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092129)

You really don’t understand Systems Design & Development or Technical Architecture, do you?

Saying "the technology is there" makes it sound simple, which it isn’t - it took SpaceX 6 years to get their first successful launch (after multiple failures), and it’s first commercial launch took 12 years, but "the technology" already existed (it’s entire ethos is using COTS and existing testing technology to reduce cost and development time).

You stated

It’s not the technology that takes the time, it’s understanding and agreeing the requirements, designing the systems and interfaces, prototyping and testing those systems and interfaces, developing the full solution and interfaces, testing and implementing those systems and interfaces, regression testing the impact of any changes required to linked systems (a couple of loops of the last two steps when errors are found or changes required), and while all this is going on, requirements for system changes will being requested* as the world (political and economic) changes (new laws, standards, processes, etc.).

To give you a sense of timescales, the current Customs system (CHIEF) was suppose to have been retired in 2012 - in fact, it’s replacement, CDS, will be implemented at the end of March 2023; the "technology" is/was there, but it’s 11 years late.

And as for the NZ "technological solution", how does it deal with the cross-border foot and road traffic from Australia?

*and by requested, I mean demanded, usually by politicians

How do you walk or drive across the Tasman sea?

Hugh	05-09-2021 10:30

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092130)

Don’t get carried away Hugh. All I said was that the technology was there.

Are you seriously disagreeing with this?

Are you seriously trying to compare this situation with launching a rocket?

I really think that some of you on this forum are overthinking this - big time!

I’m not getting "carried away" - I’m using 40 years experience in implementing large scale Business Systems to point out the complexity of what is required, rather than your simplistic "the technology is there" mantra, based on who knows what? I pointed out that one aspect of the "technology" that you said is "already there" is in fact not "there", and is over a decade late, and won’t go live for nearly two years.

You said

Quote:

Your point about technical solutions not yet being available is another lie being put about by those who want to see us fail. Of course they are there, and New Zealand have already found such a solution for their exports, as my link showed.

As stated above, you are comparing apples with orang-utans - You keep using "the technology is there" as your "get out of jail" card - the technology to provide a solution to the Eire/EU - NI/UK cross-border traffic and imports and exports isn’t there, and probably won’t be for 5-10 years.

OLD BOY

05-09-2021 11:59

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092140)

That’s the point…

There aren’t any requirements for foot or road traffic exports/imports in the NZ-Australia systems, so using their "technology" as a comparison to posit there is a similar solution already in place is not congruent with actuality.

---------- Post added at 09:30 ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 ----------

I’m not getting "carried away" - I’m using 40 years experience in implementing large scale Business Systems to point out the complexity of what is required, rather than your simplistic "the technology is there" mantra, based on who knows what? I pointed out that one aspect of the "technology" that you said is "already there" is in fact not "there", and is over a decade late, and won’t go live for nearly two years.

You said

As stated above, you are comparing apples with orang-utans - You keep using "the technology is there" as your "get out of jail" card - the technology to provide a solution to the Eire/EU - NI/UK cross-border traffic and imports and exports isn’t there, and probably won’t be for 5-10 years.

I understand that you have vast experience in IT, Hugh, and that you know so much more than the rest of us on this subject so we may as well just shut up :rolleyes: but I really do have to challenge you on this.

You seem to be confused about the argument I am making. The technology is there, otherwise the government would not have suggested it. What isn't there is the system they want to introduce to make it work. That can be devised using existing technology.

The example I would give you is this. There is an existing technology called 'blockchain'. Most on here will have heard of this, and it is already being used for cryptocurrencies. Hence, it should be obvious that it is a very secure way of monitoring and recording.

The way this would work is that a unique code would be generated for each item, and it would contain information on the product's origin and who has handled it on every step along the way. So by this method, the origin of all goods transported would be recorded and this would provide the guarantees required, including certificates of origin for everything passing thrrough the border.

I do not dispute that the system would need to be developed, and this would take time, but the technology is there already. For the transitional period, we would need an extension to the present arrangement.

Hopefully, I have made this clear enough for everyone to understand.

Hugh	05-09-2021 12:43

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092148)

I understand that you have vast experience in IT, Hugh, and that you know so much more than the rest of us on this subject so we may as well just shut up :rolleyes: but I really do have to challenge you on this.

You seem to be confused about the argument I am making. The technology is there, otherwise the government would not have suggested it. What isn't there is the system they want to introduce to make it work. That can be devised using existing technology.

The example I would give you is this. There is an existing technology called 'blockchain'. Most on here will have heard of this, and it is already being used for cryptocurrencies. Hence, it should be obvious that it is a very secure way of monitoring and recording.

The way this would work is that a unique code would be generated for each item, and it would contain information on the product's origin and who has handled it on every step along the way. So by this method, the origin of all goods transported would be recorded and this would provide the guarantees required, including certificates of origin for everything passing thrrough the border.

I do not dispute that the system would need to be developed, and this would take time, but the technology is there already. For the transitional period, we would need an extension to the present arrangement.

Hopefully, I have made this clear enough for everyone to understand.

Quote:

the National Program for IT (NPfIT) was hailed to be the largest public-sector IT program ever attempted in the UK. The project was set to revolutionise the use of healthcare informatics in the NHS, with integrated electronic patient records, an online ‘choose and book’ service, and digital referral and prescription systems. But after ten years’ work on the project which was punctuated by delays, stakeholder opposition, and issues with implementation, the program was finally shelved in 2011, costing the taxpayer over a staggering £10 billion.

https://techmonitor.ai/leadership/st...grammes-it-nao

Quote:

The reasons government major programmes hit hurdles

The NOA identifies four key themes it sees repeated in major programmes that encounter problems.

Scope – the remit of the project is poorly defined or not aligned with overall objectives or strategy.

Cost and schedule – the limits of schedule and cost estimates are not taken into account, leading to unrealistic promises.

Interdependencies – many of these programmes include multiple objectives and contributors, which are often not managed effectively.

Governance and oversight – programme management doesn’t adapt or change as the project develops.

Quote:

Technology projects cited include the Ministry of Justice’s (MoJ) electronic tagging programme for offenders, which saw the government attempt to develop bespoke tags for criminals combing radio frequency and GPS tracking. The project was delivered six years late and more than £60m over its initial £130m budget, and was described by MPs on the Commons Public Accounts Committee as a “catastrophic waste of public money which has failed to deliver the intended benefits”.

Part of the reason the scheme stumbled was because interdependencies and roles were ill-defined, the report says. The MoJ expected Capita, its main contractor, to act as integrator for the different elements of the programme and manage three other suppliers, but “Capita was contractually not responsible for the work and performance of the other suppliers, and considered it lacked leverage to perform the integrator role”. This led to a lengthy dispute and delay, which eventually resulted in the MoJ taking the integration role back in-house.

Once again, it’s nothing to do with the "technology", it’s to do with understanding and agreeing requirements, it’s linking the "technologies" up and ensuring that they do all work together, and it’s doing this whilst in a period of constant pressure because of changing priorities.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, the reimbursement & surveillance technologies don’t exist yet.

"Technology" is easy(ish), processes, people, & politics, and understanding the interdependencies are hard.

mrmistoffelees

05-09-2021 12:45

Re: Britain outside the EU

Blockchain is not a currently viable solution, it’s still in its infancy & it suffers from many issues when supported for the use case you’re advising, these are chiefly

Lack of regulation, this by proxy makes it currently insecure
Scalability
Speed
And now the big one, severe difficulties interpreting into legacy services.

OLD BOY

05-09-2021 13:57

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092155)

Nice ad hominem attack… :rolleyes:

Anyway, back to your proposition that "The technology is there, otherwise the government would not have suggested it"…

https://www.openaccessgovernment.org...sasters/92990/

https://techmonitor.ai/leadership/st...grammes-it-nao

Once again, it’s nothing to do with the "technology", it’s to do with understanding and agreeing requirements, it’s linking the "technologies" up and ensuring that they do all work together, and it’s doing this whilst in a period of constant pressure because of changing priorities.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, the reimbursement & surveillance technologies don’t exist yet.

"Technology" is easy(ish), processes, people, & politics, and understanding the interdependencies are hard.

At last! That is what I was saying - the technology is there.

The fact that there is incompetence within the Civil Service to properly frame specifications, etc is an entirely different matter.

What I am not clear on, however, is whether the blockchain method would reduce or eliminate the need for surveillance. We do have drones, of course!

My thinking was that blockchain technology would record the movement of products at various stages of their journey, so it would be obvious if products went astray.

I do not dispute at all that introducing a system such as this will take time. I think the government would be better giving this project to one of the computer giants to put together. It would be far speedier and without the number of glitches that we normally expect from government computer contracts. The NHS one was a disaster.

Hugh	05-09-2021 14:00

Re: Britain outside the EU

Erm, the NHS contracts were awarded to some of the biggest players in the IT industry, including Accenture, CSC, Atos Origin, Fujitsu and BT…

As a review of the fiasco stated

https://www.henricodolfing.com/2019/...-disaster.html

Quote:

Understanding the problem

"Top-down" projects are much more likely to fail than "bottom-up" projects, and NPfIT was top-down project par excellence. I identify a top-down project as one done for political reasons: and this can be both genuinely Political with a capital P in the public sector or a "vanity" or CEO-inspired project in the private sector. The history of public sector ICT and outsourcing is littered with politically-inspired projects that failed.

The motivation to commence NPfIT came from Cabinet level and it's hard to argue against the fact that many of its aims were entirely laudable. But there is a big gap between laudability and deliverability. The decision to commence any project - let alone one which will transform a fundamental building block of a nation's healthcare system - must be made by the right people who really know about the issues involved. It's unfortunate for civil servants and the departments they run that they have to carry the can for projects devised by ministers that often only make sense on the political drawing board and are almost impossible to translate into reality.

In the Libra Magistrates system, Fujitsu were awarded the contract

https://www.softwareadvisoryservice....ject-failures/

Quote:

Libra System for Magistrates

The initial bid for the Libra project to provide a national system for 385 magistrates was £146 million from Fujitsu. However, before a final deal was even signed, Fujitsu raised the price to £184 million after the company’s board said it wasn’t able to support the charging basis on which the bid was submitted. They had not taken all the costs into account and “made some inappropriate… revenue assumptions”, according to the National Audit Office. Ten months later, Fujitsu asked for a higher price yet again, as their forecasts showed a deficit of £39 million over the life of the deal.

Ernst and Young advised the Lord Chancellor’s Department that Fujitsu’s financial model was unreliable. However, at this point the project was too important to let the supplier default. 18 months into the contract, the deal was renegotiated, increasing payments to Fujitsu to £319 million. Even so, Fujitsu still faced losses of up to £200 million. The next quote proposed by Fujitsu for £389 million was rejected by the department. The department ended up signing a contract with STL instead to provide Libra’s core software. However, Fujitsu still received most of the money, gaining tens of million pounds, despite not being contracted to deliver the software.

The problem with most of these failures is that they’re seen as "technology" projects, when in fact they’re Business projects with a technology base - if you don’t understand and agree detailed businessrequirements, you’ll never deliver what is required.

OLD BOY

05-09-2021 14:12

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092157)

Fair points. But I would point out that the cryptocurrency system must be pretty secure as people are putting a lot of their money into it. The Bank of England is also considering using blockchain, so it must offer some viable solutions.

As for regulations, well, that is up to the government to create those regulations. These are things to do to make it work, not obstacles that cannot be overcome.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘speed’ - the blockchain system is fast and efficient. Are you talking about speed of implementation?

I don’t see scalability as a big problem - surely, if the Bank of England is seriously considering this, it must not present major issues.

Legacy services? Surely, this new system would require all systems to be brought into line. It would be a complete overhaul.

It will take time, of course it will, but it is achievable, and if both sides agree that this is a solution, I’m sure we can find a way to manage the transitional period. We can start with eliminating the unnecessary bureaucracy, which is what so many businesses are finding difficult to manage. It just isn’t this difficult to export and import to and from other countries.

Carth

05-09-2021 14:15

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092166)

But I would point out that the cryptocurrency system must be pretty secure as people are putting a lot of their money into it. The Bank of England is also considering using blockchain, so it must offer some viable solutions.

In my humble opinion, that ranks as one of the funniest posts this year :D

Sephiroth

05-09-2021 14:16

Re: Britain outside the EU

To selectively quote from the quote in Hugh's post:

Quote:

It's unfortunate for civil servants and the departments they run that they have to carry the can for projects devised by ministers that often only make sense on the political drawing board and are almost impossible to translate into reality.

I certainly accept that statement. However, in the case of a customs system, I don't think that particular aphorism holds true.

mrmistoffelees

05-09-2021 14:27

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092166)

Have a read here https://towardsdatascience.com/the-b...ed-5cce48f9d44

Regarding eliminating bureaucracy. It’s about to get worse, Taf posted earlier in this thread about a delivery from France arriving overnight. This is due to the U.K. not currently implementing the same checks that the EU currently are. These come in at the end of next month I believe ? Why ? Because they’re required

---------- Post added at 13:27 ---------- Previous post was at 13:16 ----------

The BoE are considering potential use cases, it’s a lot more complex than you portray

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/news...gital-currency

Hugh	05-09-2021 16:31

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092166)

Fair points. But I would point out that the cryptocurrency system must be pretty secure as people are putting a lot of their money into it. The Bank of England is also considering using blockchain, so it must offer some viable solutions.

As for regulations, well, that is up to the government to create those regulations. These are things to do to make it work, not obstacles that cannot be overcome.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘speed’ - the blockchain system is fast and efficient. Are you talking about speed of implementation?

I don’t see scalability as a big problem - surely, if the Bank of England is seriously considering this, it must not present major issues.

Legacy services? Surely, this new system would require all systems to be brought into line. It would be a complete overhaul.

It will take time, of course it will, but it is achievable, and if both sides agree that this is a solution, I’m sure we can find a way to manage the transitional period. We can start with eliminating the unnecessary bureaucracy, which is what so many businesses are finding difficult to manage. It just isn’t this difficult to export and import to and from other countries.

https://towardsdatascience.com/the-b...i=a2fe48f4a60a

Quote:

The battle for a scalable solution is the blockchain’s moon race. Bitcoin processes 4.6 transactions per second. Visa does around 1,700 transactions per second on average (based on a calculation derived from the official claim of over 150 million transactions per day). The potential for adoption is there but is bottlenecked currently by scalability.

A study published by Tata Communications in 2018 showed that 44% of organizations in its survey are adopting blockchain, but also alludes to the universal problems that arise from deploying new technologies. From an architectural level, the unsolved problem of scalability is emerging as a bottleneck to blockchain adoption and practical applications.

As Deloitte Insights puts it, “blockchain-based systems are comparatively slow. Blockchain’s sluggish transaction speed is a major concern for enterprises that depend on high-performance legacy transaction processing systems.”

Hugh	06-09-2021 16:08

Re: Britain outside the EU

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/...244990-brexit/

Quote:

Ireland expects UK to extend Brexit grace periods - Varadkar

The Tánaiste has said Ireland expects Britain to announce further extensions to post-Brexit grace periods on goods imports into both Northern Ireland and into the rest of the United Kingdom.

Leo Varadkar said: "The expectation is that the United Kingdom will announce a further extension of the grace periods, not just in relation toNorthern Ireland but also imports from the EU and Ireland into the UK."

He was speaking following a meeting in London with Britain's cabinet office minister Michael Gove, who he said had told him that Britain "doesn't want to walk away from the protocol but does want to make it more workable."

Sephiroth

06-09-2021 16:25

Re: Britain outside the EU

I wonder what's buried in Varadkar's remarks. I've read the article and Hugh has not omitted anything of importance.

Is the Tanasty (Varadkar) correctly reflecting the position of the Teashop (Martin)?

Is the EU behind him on this?

If the answer to both the above is "yes", then it would be interesting to hear the UK Guvmin's planned steps and timeline to have the customs side of the Protocol implemented so that iut operates efficiently. It would also be interesting to know whether British meat can still arrive in NI without impediment; that would seem to me to be a stumbling block and public opinion plays into this.

The EU's actions on the AZ vaccine (including trashing it) has soured public opinion of the EU.

mrmistoffelees

07-09-2021 15:35

Re: Britain outside the EU

Lord Frosty kicking the can down the road again.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1915026.html

Carth

07-09-2021 17:51

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092322)

Lord Frosty kicking the can down the road again.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1915026.html

Yep, should have banned all meat products to & from N.I.

that'll learn em :D

Sephiroth

07-09-2021 18:01

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36092353)

Yep, should have banned all meat products to & from N.I.

that'll learn em :D

Er - NI's not the enemy. How about not importing meat products from Eire?

papa smurf

07-09-2021 18:11

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092322)

Lord Frosty kicking the can down the road again.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1915026.html

Is it a can of sausages:)

mrmistoffelees

07-09-2021 18:11

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092354)

Er - NI's not the enemy. How about not importing meat products from Eire?

Why do you insist on using the word 'enemy' ?

papa smurf

07-09-2021 18:12

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092354)

Er - NI's not the enemy. How about not importing meat products from Eire?

There's no meat in their sausages.

Hugh	07-09-2021 20:24

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36092356)

Is it a can of sausages:)

could be wurst…

OLD BOY

07-09-2021 20:28

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092357)

Why do you insist on using the word 'enemy' ?

The key is in the behaviour. They are hardly friendly towards us. They are angry, not least because they no longer have our financial contribution.

However, they brought it about themselves when they sent Cameron back with his tail between his legs after he put a pretty tame list of feeble demands to them. They overplayed their hand, and now they are paying the price.

If they haven’t learned their lesson they will do the same with Northern Ireland.

Hugh	07-09-2021 20:40

Re: Britain outside the EU

I regard Russia the "enemy" - they carried out poisonings in the U.K., use disinformation campaigns to stir up unrest and undermine democracy - the EU are just carrying out standard economic negotiation tactics.

Sephiroth

07-09-2021 21:01

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092377)

That's a given.. But "Irish Republican Army" comes to mind.

Hugh	07-09-2021 22:11

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092378)

That's a given.. But "Irish Republican Army" comes to mind.

Which were nothing to do with the Irish Government... :confused:

After 1922, the IRA (and all it's barsteward offshoots) was outlawed by the Irish Government.

Sephiroth

07-09-2021 22:24

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092396)

Which were nothing to do with the Irish Government... :confused:

After 1922, the IRA (and all it's barsteward offshoots) was outlawed by the Irish Government.

Someone was always going to say that.

But the Irish generally still carry (to varying degree) the chip on their shoulder of the days when the country was getting a raw deal from the British. Varadkar epitomises the boot being on the other foot.

I have no hesitation in calling him the Enemy. Same goes for that duplictous and perfidious Macron.

TheDaddy

07-09-2021 22:31

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092374)

What was wrong with Cameron's feeble deal?

Hugh	07-09-2021 22:55

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092398)

The Irish actually had a Civil War after Independence, with the IRA fighting the Free State Army - the only people with a chip on their shoulder are the Old Guard who wanted a whole island Irish State, the rest don’t feel acrimoniously towards the Brits (speaking as someone from an Irish Catholic background, with lots of family in Ireland).

Sephiroth

07-09-2021 23:01

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092403)

Well, Varadkar will do as the enemy, then.

1andrew1

07-09-2021 23:38

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36092356)

Is it a can of sausages:)

It's a can of worms. ;)

OLD BOY

08-09-2021 08:48

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36092400)

What was wrong with Cameron's feeble deal?

To refresh your memory....

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/03/a-st...s-eu-deal.html

TheDaddy

08-09-2021 12:10

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092417)

To refresh your memory....

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/03/a-st...s-eu-deal.html

Yes seems my memory isn't that bad after all as I didn't remember his deal being feeble, he got all he asked for and in some areas more

heero_yuy

08-09-2021 12:13

Re: Britain outside the EU

If you get all you ask for then you didn't ask for enough. :D

mrmistoffelees

08-09-2021 13:00

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092398)

I have to ask, don't you have a chip on your shoulder due to the way you perceive the way the EU are treating the UK?

Is yours somehow more justified than the 'Irish' ??

---------- Post added at 12:00 ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092374)

Being 'hardly friendly' does not inherently them the 'enemy'

As Hugh says, standard economic negotiation tactics

OLD BOY

08-09-2021 17:57

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092433)

Being 'hardly friendly' does not inherently them the 'enemy'

As Hugh says, standard economic negotiation tactics

You are right, of course. But nonetheless, that’s how it feels.

Macron in particular is, let’s say, ‘not very nice’ towards us. Putting it mildly, that is.

Sephiroth

08-09-2021 18:01

Re: Britain outside the EU

I have a huge chip on my shoulder regarding the EU. So what?

mrmistoffelees

08-09-2021 19:33

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092466)

I have a huge chip on my shoulder regarding the EU. So what?

Get another, you'll be equally balanced then ;)

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:28 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092465)

You are right, of course. But nonetheless, that’s how it feels.

Macron in particular is, let’s say, ‘not very nice’ towards us. Putting it mildly, that is.

Ah, so now they're hurting our feelings? ;) well, that is a rum do :)

Let's be honest, this needs to be about facts, not feelings & the facts are that we may not like the way the EU are acting BUT they have their own interests to put first, as we do ours. and, so long as they're not breaking any laws/treaties then what exactly are they doing wrong? Some may argue that 'isn't in the spirit of things' but this is politics & economics, not a game of cricket.

Sephiroth

08-09-2021 19:48

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092475)

Get another, you'll be equally balanced then ;)

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:28 ----------

Ah, so now they're hurting our feelings? ;) well, that is a rum do :)

Let's be honest, this needs to be about facts, not feelings & the facts are that we may not like the way the EU are acting BUT they have their own interests to put first, as we do ours. and, so long as they're not breaking any laws/treaties then what exactly are they doing wrong? Some may argue that 'isn't in the spirit of things' but this is politics & economics, not a game of cricket.

Rather than explaining the EU's part and approach, you should be standing up for the UK and shedding the "I told you so" stance.

Their stance on the AZ vaccine was nothing short of appalling and directed towards us directly.

mrmistoffelees

08-09-2021 19:56

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092478)

They've done NOTHING legally/treaty wise wrong. I have not nor will i ever support/standup for anything/anyone in my life that i believe to be inherently wrong.

This is not me saying I told you so, as probably contrary to your belief i gain no pleasure from it.

The UK got ourselves into this mess, according to some (including you) we don't need any help from the EU. Well, lets see the UK get out of this mess then without the EUs assistance. Then we can hang the bunting, roll out the street parties, and all have a nice piece of cake with lashings and lashings of ginger beer.

Your anger is misdirected.

Sephiroth

08-09-2021 20:11

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092479)

Weasel words but sadly, probably true.

mrmistoffelees

08-09-2021 20:18

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092480)

Weasel words but sadly, probably true.

It's called having principles.

OLD BOY

08-09-2021 20:44

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092475)

Trading between nations relies on mutual trust, old chap.

It certainly shouldn’t rely on ‘feelings’. Maybe you need to tell that to Macron, who hates our guts. :D

Mad Max

08-09-2021 20:56

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092481)

It's called having principles.

Are you Jfman in disguise? ;)

Hugh	08-09-2021 22:06

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092482)

Trading between nations relies on mutual trust, old chap.

It certainly shouldn’t rely on ‘feelings’. Maybe you need to tell that to Macron, who hates our guts. :D

Trust relies on nations living up to the agreements they signed up to, old chap...;)

Just because the Express and the Spectator say Macron hates the Brits, doesnt make it true...

TheDaddy

08-09-2021 22:23

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092489)

Trust relies on nations living up to the agreements they signed up to, old chap...;)

Just because the Express and the Spectator say Macron hates the Brits, doesnt make it true...

Perhaps they're just confused that for the first time in peacetime history a nation has made it harder for themselves to trade with their neighbours :shrug:

1andrew1

08-09-2021 22:32

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092482)

Trading between nations relies on mutual trust, old chap.

It certainly shouldn’t rely on ‘feelings’. Maybe you need to tell that to Macron, who hates our guts. :D

Macron's annoying and I don't like him atall but I'm not sure he hates our guts.

Sephiroth

08-09-2021 22:47

Re: Britain outside the EU

Macron doesn't hate the Brits.

He just likes himself more and he wants to win the upcoming presidential election. So, Mr. Non.

OLD BOY

09-09-2021 08:47

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092489)

Trust relies on nations living up to the agreements they signed up to, old chap...;)

Just because the Express and the Spectator say Macron hates the Brits, doesnt make it true...

And honouring agreements means acting in the spirit of those agreements, not interpreting them in such a way that you deliberately put up barriers that puts the other side at a disadvantage.

---------- Post added at 07:47 ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092491)

Macron's annoying and I don't like him atall but I'm not sure he hates our guts.

No, he hates our guts. Just wait for the energy shortage we will probably face this coming winter and watch what he does with the interconnectors on which we rely.

1andrew1

09-09-2021 09:39

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092495)

Just wait for the energy shortage we will probably face this coming winter and watch what he does with the interconnectors on which we rely.

Even I'm not that pessimistic about Brexit, Old Boy! :D

Hugh	09-09-2021 10:05

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092495)

And honouring agreements means acting in the spirit of those agreements, not interpreting them in such a way that you deliberately put up barriers that puts the other side at a disadvantage.

---------- Post added at 07:47 ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 ----------

[/COLOR]

No, he hates our guts. Just wait for the energy shortage we will probably face this coming winter and watch what he does with the interconnectors on which we rely.

And you don’t think this could be equally applied to British ‘acting in the spirit"?

"Acting in the spirit" is just an excuse used by people trying to weasel out of their responsibilities - contracts/agreements/treaties are worded to be clear and precise, and to avoid ambiguity, and if things are unambiguous, you can’t say "well, I want it to mean something different because that suits me"…

"Acting in the spirit of the agreement" does not mean taking unilateral action which breaches the Agreement.

---------- Post added at 09:05 ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092495)

No, he hates our guts. Just wait for the energy shortage we will probably face this coming winter and watch what he does with the interconnectors on which we rely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092500)

Even I'm not that pessimistic about Brexit, Old Boy! :D

It’s "projection" - it’s what he would do, so he assumes others would act in the same "spirit"… ;)

Carth

09-09-2021 13:36

Re: Britain outside the EU

I don't think I've ever seen, signed, or ripped up a contract that was 'worded to be clear and precise' . . . they usually have some strange legally worded bollox in there to get you with later :D

mrmistoffelees

09-09-2021 14:44

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092495)

Really ?? Where's that legally defined then?

Like i said, this isn't a game of cricket.

papa smurf

09-09-2021 15:21

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36092521)

I don't think I've ever seen, signed, or ripped up a contract that was 'worded to be clear and precise' . . . they usually have some strange legally worded bollox in there to get you with later :D

words like protocol :)

pip08456

09-09-2021 17:26

Re: Britain outside the EU

Looks like Barnier has learned something from Brexit.

Quote:

We must regain our legal sovereignty to no longer be subject to the judgments of the CJEU or the ECHR. We will propose a referendum in September on the question of immigration.

Sephiroth

09-09-2021 17:34

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36092530)

Looks like Barnier has learned something from Brexit.

A fuller quote:

Quote:

t seems Michel Barnier has undergone something of a transformation in recent months. Gone is the starry-eyed Eurocrat who decried the 'cherry picking' of Perfidious Albion and insisted that 'the single market and its four freedoms are indivisible'. In his place stands the defender of national sovereignty, a patriotic champion of French self-interest against Big Brussels.

This new-found Euroscepticism is of course due to Barnier's decision to run for the French presidency. The former Brexit negotiator clearly thinks he can succeed where David Cameron failed, judging by his pronouncements today on the need for France to renegotiate its relationship with the EU. Barnier told members of his Republican party today that:

“We must regain our legal sovereignty in order to no longer be subject to the judgments of the CJEU or the ECHR. We will propose a referendum in September on the question of immigration.

A manifesto which, er, curiously resembles Cameron's own demands that the EU rejected in early 2016. 'Legal sovereignty' if enacted would of course mean ignoring the EU's court rulings and the Council of Europe – a proposal that prompted paroxysms of outrage when Brandon Lewis suggested similar.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...xity-manifesto

jonbxx

09-09-2021 18:01

Re: Britain outside the EU

Barnier is after the Le Pen votes by the look of it. France has always been a more 'union of nations' kind of country compared to others within the EU

Hugh	09-09-2021 18:14

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36092521)

I don't think I've ever seen, signed, or ripped up a contract that was 'worded to be clear and precise' . . . they usually have some strange legally worded bollox in there to get you with later :D

Just because you didn’t understand it, doesn’t mean it wasn’t clear & precise (in legal terms). ;)

The challenge most lay-people (myself included) have with contract wording is that certain words have very precise agreed legal definitions, defined through many court cases and precedence, which is why they are used.

Hugh	10-09-2021 13:33

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36092530)

Looks like Barnier has learned something from Brexit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36092532)

Barnier is after the Le Pen votes by the look of it. France has always been a more 'union of nations' kind of country compared to others within the EU

Can you imagine a politician completely changing his viewpoint on something just to be elected Leader of his country?

It couldn't happen here... ;)

OLD BOY

10-09-2021 21:48

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092507)

Why are you continually batting for the other side, Hugh?

I believe that if one party is deliberately construing a contract in a way that was not a reasonable interpretation of what it meant, the other side is perfectly entitled to call foul.

I have already cited the example of the EU insistence that each sandwich must be separately labelled on a consignment, instead of having one label for each batch of like sandwiches. Are you trying to defend that infantile interpretation of what was supposed to have been agreed?

Too much bureaucracy kills off private enterprise. That’s why the EU is doing this.

Sephiroth

10-09-2021 21:53

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092627)

I'm looking forward to Hugh's answer.

Hugh	10-09-2021 22:41

Re: Britain outside the EU

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36092627)

I’m straight… ;)

Re sandwiches - I can’t find any link to sandwich-related post from you in this, or any other, thread, so I can neither confirm or deny the veracity of your statement.

However, it’s strange - when I buy a sandwich from Sainsbury’s (other supermarkets & fast food shops are available), the individual sandwich packaging contains information like

Quote:

INGREDIENTS: Malted Bread (Fortified Wheat Flour (Wheat Flour, Calcium Carbonate, Iron, Niacin, Thiamin), Water, Malted Wheat Flakes, Wheat Bran, Yeast, Salt, Malted Barley Flour, Emulsifiers: Mono- and Diglycerides of Fatty Acids, Mono- and Diacetyl Tartaric Acid Esters of Mono- and Diglycerides of Fatty Acids; Wheat Gluten, Malted Wheat Flour, Rapeseed Oil, Flour Treatment Agent: Ascorbic Acid; Wheat Flour, Wheat Starch), Maple Cured Smoked Bacon (18%) (Pork Belly, Maple Syrup, Sugar, Salt, Antioxidant: Sodium Ascorbate; Preservative:Sodium Nitrite), Tomatoes (17%), Lettuce (8%), Water, Rapeseed Oil, Cornflour, Pasteurised Free Range Egg Yolk, Spirit Vinegar, Sugar, Salt, Pasteurised Free Range Egg, Concentrated Lemon Juice, Black Mustard Seeds.

and https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1631306273

So they’re asking for what we already do in the U.K.?

Hugh	10-09-2021 22:42

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092630)

I'm looking forward to Hugh's answer.

Please see above - hth… :)

Sephiroth

10-09-2021 22:59

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36092637)

Please see above - hth… :)

Re: Sandwiches -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xit-terms.html

Quote:

M&S warned today that it is already slashing Christmas ranges for Northern Ireland due to 'pettifogging' enforcement of Brexit rules - as the UK unveils plans to override the protocol unless Brussels sees sense.

The head of the famous chain gave an extraordinary account of the obstacles facing exporter as Lord Frost laid out proposals for ending the bitter standoff over the divorce terms.

The peer is calling for most checks to be eliminated on goods moving from mainland Britain to Northern Ireland - insisting the friction within the UK is putting the peace process at risk.

M&S chairman Archie Norman said its festive products for Northern Ireland were already being 'delisted' and shoppers could face higher prices.

He said he feared that when grace periods come to an end there will be similar issues to those seen exports goods to Ireland, where whole shipments have been lost due to documents being filled out in the wrong colour pen. Mr Norman said that every sandwich required three veterinary certificates.

1andrew1

11-09-2021 02:11

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092630)

I'm looking forward to Hugh's answer.

I'm looking forward to seeing OldBoy's original post about sandwich labelling. ;)

mrmistoffelees

11-09-2021 09:41

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092639)

Re: Sandwiches -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xit-terms.html

And does this requirement apply to all countries outside the EU ?

Sephiroth

11-09-2021 10:08

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092658)

And does this requirement apply to all countries outside the EU ?

What a silly question. Why do you do this? The GB/NI situation is unique and the sandwich problem needs to be seen in that light.

mrmistoffelees

11-09-2021 10:24

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092660)

What a silly question. Why do you do this? The GB/NI situation is unique and the sandwich problem needs to be seen in that light.

It’s a genuine question I’m looking for the answer too

A simple yes or no is enough

Edit: for clarification the question I’m asking is to if these requirements apply from any non EU country into the EU/EU customs union.

Sephiroth

11-09-2021 11:02

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36092661)

For clarification: The question is do the requirements to label and provide 3x veterinary certificates for each sandwich apply to imports from any non EU country into the EU/EU customs union/single market.

That is not a genuine question because you know the answer. EU rules are EU rules within the pragmatic allowances they could make But your question is not genuine because the EU is unlikely to import sandwiches from third countries.

As if you didn't know, the NI/GB situation is unique and the routine transfer of sandwiches (say, by M&S) from GB to NI has been shattered by intransigent application of EU rules. The poxy EU is just being difficult, most likely as punishment for Brexit.

I do at last believe that the UK is going to stand up for itself. Better late than never.

It seems perverse to me that Remainers imply we could have avoided all this nastiness by staying in the EU.

mrmistoffelees

11-09-2021 11:11

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092662)

Do the same requirements apply to any non eu country importing into the eu/eu customs union !

They either do or the don’t ? So, yes or no ?

Chris

11-09-2021 11:21

Re: Britain outside the EU

If I might interject … obviously the labelling rules apply to third countries. That’s precisely the point the UK government wants to make.

A Brexit deal in 2020 was only possible with some sort of provision for Northern Ireland in it. The NI provisions threatened to derail the entire process so HMG accepted them. I think their reasoning was not that the protocol was as decent a compromise as was possible under the circumstances, but that it was an outrageous infringement on internationally accepted norms of sovereignty, to such an extent that they could keep delaying its implementation without loss of international support and without the EU enjoying the political commitment of its member states to take rapid legal action.

The endgame here clearly is the technologically driven, invisible customs border between RoI and NI that has been discussed at length in this thread, with compromise after compromise muddled through until it is possible to implement that.

1andrew1

11-09-2021 11:43

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36092664)

I think the implication from earlier posts by Old Boy had been that the EU was treating the UK harshly by interpreting the Brexit Deal to the letter and not by the spirit of the agreement. Seph confirmed that this was wrong as the EU treated all Third Countries in the same way.

If I understand you correctly, you believe the Brexit deal was unreasonable with regard to the NI provisions.

I think Johnson's end game is to kick the tin can down the alley long enough to see out this Parliament. It's an interesting situation to watch.

Carth

11-09-2021 11:48

Re: Britain outside the EU

To be honest, any country that needs to import ready made sandwiches needs to have a long hard look at itself.

Getting pretty fed up with all the stupid bickering, posturing, excuses etc regarding this type of crap . . . media driven insanity that triggers the gullible :rolleyes:

Chris

11-09-2021 12:04

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36092666)

I agree with Old Boy to the extent that the EU is indeed trying to implement the letter without due regard for the spirit or indeed the difficult political context. However I don’t think the EU is trying to issue a punishment beating per se. It’s always good to bear in mind that the European Commission is the civil service of the Union. They are bureaucrats, not politicians, and they slavishly follow the rules because that’s the core skill set of a bureaucrat. It’s somewhat worse in the EU’s case because the European Commission is a civil service on the French model, rather than the British. The French civil service is typically more activist than ours in proposing and promoting policy to the executive. Such is the case also in Brussels. So in “defending the treaties” the Commission really is defending its own baby. Annoying for us, but unsurprising.

The Northern Ireland provisions in the Brexit deal must be seen in this context. They are designed to defend the single market because that’s what the European Commission is for. The European Commission has no real understanding of national sovereignty because part of its mission is to facilitate the transition away from that concept to one in which the EU has broad competency over many things. Fundamentally it does not, and cannot, understand Brexit because it is a move in precisely the opposite direction to that which it exists to pursue.

So, the Northern Ireland provisions pursue something intrinsically “good” as far as the Commission is concerned, and anything that hinders that pursuit is therefore “not-good”. This is how we ended up with an intractable situation prior to the deal being signed and, I believe, Boris’ ultimate decision to sign it for the sake of getting the deal done, and then undermine it at every opportunity thereafter. As written, it is blindingly obvious that it is incompatible with any internationally recognised definition of sovereignty, but given the European Commission’s entire raison d’etre it is also entirely understandable that it is either blind or indifferent to that fact.

Sephiroth

11-09-2021 12:36

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36092667)

It's too easy to agree with you - but I can't on this occasion.

Your point amounts to M&S (the case in point) making sandwiches in NI vs continuance of their pre-Brexit practice of just-in-time deliveries from GB. So it comes down to M&S (in this case) choosing between increased production costs or cutting their losses. And all because the poxy EU won't implement their rules in a reasonable manner.

papa smurf

11-09-2021 12:45

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36092667)

there are a few members that get triggered every time the Eu dirty tricks are questioned.

Carth

11-09-2021 13:58

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36092669)

I think 'just in time deliveries' have taken a bit of a knocking just lately, probably easier in the long run (and better for the environment) for M&S to start making sandwiches in NI . . provides employment too ;)

Probably cuts into profits, but that's how things go . . you either want to sell stuff in NI or you don't :D

mrmistoffelees

11-09-2021 15:04

Re: Britain outside the EU

Right, so we can agree that this applies to all non EU countries, we’re not being ‘picked on’ by the ‘perfidious EU’ or other such nonsense. This is just one of the consequences that has to be dealt with. Fab

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