Re: Brexit
 

Well when it gets to 500,000. get back to us...

Re: Brexit
 

Well nothing - I am still waiting for you actually, to get back to us when your Brexit protester marches, reaches 17.4 Million.

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:03 ----------

Yes really -

17.4 Million beats 390,000

Re: Brexit
 

I do not believe what I said is rubbish so please don't suggest that I know it is. The UK delegates some responsibilities to the EU as per the treaties that successive governments that we elected signed up to. The EU parliament votes for new EU laws alongside the EU Council which votes sometimes on qualified majority voting and sometimes requiring unanimity. However, the EU can only create new laws on the principle of subsidiarity, hence my asking for examples of the EU parliament overruling the UK on this principle.

Even the UK government says that parliament has always been sovereign - https://assets.publishing.service.go...the_EU_Web.pdf

On the subject of federalisation, a certain David Cameron got us an opt out anyway - see section C.1 - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...01.0001.01.ENG

Re: Brexit
 

And 49 million is more than 17 million...

Re: Brexit
 

With regard to your link to the guvmin's paper, the relevant text actually says:

Parliamentary sovereignty

2.1 The sovereignty of Parliament is a fundamental principle of the UK constitution. Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that. The extent of EU activity relevant to the UK can be demonstrated by the fact that 1,056 EU-related documents were deposited for parliamentary scrutiny in 2016. These include proposals for EU Directives, Regulations, Decisions and Recommendations, as well as Commission delegated acts, and other documents such as Commission Communications, Reports and Opinions submitted to the Council, Court of Auditors Reports and more.

2.2 Leaving the EU will mean that our laws will be made in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, and will be based on the specific interests and values of the UK. In chapter 1 we set out how the Great Repeal Bill will ensure that our legislatures and courts will be the final decision makers in our country.

2.2 is the main point. The CJEU can direct us currently if we don't implement EU directives.

In any case, and this is key, "parliamentary sovereignty" is an inward looking definition because it refers only to the UK Parliament being the supreme lawmaker whose laws cannot be overruled by the Courts. It is wholly sovereign only to the extend that it can end any law, including EU law in which case, while we are a member, can be overruled by the CJEU.



---------- Post added at 19:38 ---------- Previous post was at 19:38 ----------

The referendum result was to LEAVE.

Re: Brexit
 

52,000 NOW

Re: Brexit
 

You do make a good point that under sovereignty, it is the legislative part only which is under parliament, not the judicial.

We did however sign up to treaties allowing EU law to be incorporated in to UK law under the TFEU (currently the Lisbon treaty) Those laws are voted on by the democratically elected bodies of the Parliament and the Council so to say the EU is undemocratic is not really true.

Now you could say that we don't win on many issues at the Parliament or Council level but the numbers don't reflect this - https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...-uk-influence/ Even if we do lose a number of votes, does this not make the EU 'too democratic' rather than undemocratic?

Re: Brexit
 

At this rate you'll have more posts then Den if it gets to half the New Referendum total.

Re: Brexit
 

Sorry do not recognise 49 Million - where is this data from and what did they vote for if they voted ?

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

This is a mutually agreed relationship under the TFEU treaty and written in to local laws. For example the European Communities Act 1972 and subsequent amendments in the UK where we accept the entire EU Acquis communautaire. Of course we had a referendum three years after passing this law on continued membership.

The Maastricht treaty included a mechanism where parliaments can push back on issues which should fall under national legislation rather than the EU. It's been used three times since the mechanism was introduced.

So, to answer your direct question/statement, there are situations where the EU competency trumps the local one but this is agreed between the nations and the EU under the TFEU. Where the EU tries to go over its remit and interfere with local non-EU related issues, the principle of subsidiarity comes in the mechanisms are in place to prevent this. Finally where the local parliaments disagree with an EU law that is in the EUs remit, then it would be knocked back by the local representative at COREPER or in the Council vote if MEPs don't follow their local whip.

Re: Brexit
 

Latest update from Brexiters' World:

• Farage: Gets German passports for kids
• Lawson: Applies for French residency
• Dyson: Chooses Singapore for factory.

Re: Brexit
 

Your latest update is seriously flawed.

Trying to mislead as usual Andrew. Pathetic.

Farage has four children, two with his wife Kirsten Mehr, who is a German national.

And incase it's escaped your brain -His children would ordinarily be entitled to German citizenship through their mother.

Nothing to bloody do with Brexit. Being insincere with the facts, does not help you one bit! :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

No minimum wage, 44 hour working week

Dyson soon to be available in Primark :D

Re: Brexit
 

https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may...on-brexit-deal ;)

Re: Brexit
 

It's a mistake to confuse advice to the Government on coping with various potential scenarios with a pamphlet written to sell the benefits of remaining in the EU (aka Project Fear).
It's also wishful thinking to pretend that projections from economists have been wrong. As well as the lower economic growth than our peers, we've also got a far weaker £. And on trade, companies are busy stockpiling and the Government is turning the M26 into a lorry park. Facts. Not fiction.

Nothing I have said is incorrect.
No one's pretending they weren't entitled to German passports. It's scarcely a vote of confidence in the UK to get German passports for them when they live in this country.

Reading that large petition, I think one of the reasons suggested for signing might well chime with a fellow forum member.

Re: Brexit
 

The losers petition has had more exposure than the other one. Either way, we’ve had a vote already, people voted to leave the EU. 17.4 Million beats 900K or 700K, very insignificant figures, compared to the vote two years ago and the election results of the snap election a year later in 2017, show the electorate want to get on with leaving the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Still won't make a difference.

Re: Brexit
 

We’ve already had a second peoples vote.

Re: Brexit
 

As the old adage goes, "A week is long time in politics". ;)

Re: Brexit
 

It might be even shorter if the conspirators get their way.;)

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

It's been over 2 years since the referendum, things change, they always do. We wouldn't have General Elections if they didn't. There has been a shift in public opinion, not large, but enough to make a difference. Why are the Brexiteers so scared of another vote ? Not on Brexit, but on what type of deal/no deal the politicians inflict on is? It could mean wildly different things and affect us for generations, unlike general elections where we vote again in another few years.

Re: Brexit
 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...J9XAT85WC240hQ


over 60,000 now

Re: Brexit
 

I must confess that I'm struggling to understand this idea of having a 'peoples vote' on which type of Brexit deal the Government eventually manages to get us.

Does this mean the Government can actually agree 3 or 4 different leaving scenarios all accepted by the 27 EU Countries and then we pick which one to take?

Alternatively, does it mean that the EU throw 3 or 4 deals at us (none of which are attractive) and we choose the best of a bad bunch?

Seems to me that either way just creates more excuses for divisive unrest because the losing 3 out of 4 will organise more protest marches, petitions, accusations etc etc.

You can't win them all . . . there are winners and losers, always have been. If you win that's great, if you lose you try harder next time.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Still only 6.3% of this one at 995,770

Re: Brexit
 

And that 995,770 is less than 6% of 17.4 Million who voted to leave the EU. :rolleyes:

This comparing of numbers all the time is growing tiresome - nothing the Remainer protesters puts up will ever beat the actual vote, the vote that democratically decided we are leaving the EU.

---------- Post added at 11:51 ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 ----------

This is nonsense - there has been no change and more crucially, you have no evidence to back this up with, where as two votes have taken place over 2 years. The EU Referendum and the Snap Election that took place a year after.

Both sets of Data from these votes, went for Brexit. 80% of the Electorate in the Snap Election went for parties who had a manifesto on leaving the EU. One other main party, the Liberal Democrats, went on a platform of wanting another referendum - they gained little seats. If the UK seriously wanted another Referendum, they would have voted Liberal Democrats, en masse, it never happened because the UK does not want a second vote.

Re: Brexit
 

There was a referendum and then there was a general election, in both cases the electorate voted to leave the EU.

The government had a mandate to deliver Brexit in both cases.

At the next general election a party may stand on a ticket to rejoin the EU, in which case you can vote for them then

Re: Brexit
 

You do realise this is a petition to have a final say on what deal we have for Brexit. Not a rescind Brexit vote.

Surely it is better to have a majority agreement on such a permanent change, than a minority one? At least then the 49 million who did not vote positively for Brexit get a say, even if that does not please the dictators.

Otherwise we would have left the EU soon after triggering A50, rather than the dithering and movable red lines we have had.

Re: Brexit
 

It’s a pointless vote then.

A) accept the deal

B) don’t accept the deal, and leave with no deal.

There is no third option.

Re: Brexit
 

And what is the point in that? It would by implication mean a binary choice which remainers love so much.

Accept
Reject

If rejected then we would leave with no deal, I have no problem with that but I'm sure the majority of remainers do.

Re: Brexit
 

Why not a more complex choice once the options are known.

Fed up of politicians assuming people are stupid and somehow incapable of weighing up the choices given. Yet I should not be surprised given how little politicians actually listen to the voters.

Re: Brexit
 

Do you really expect more that one deal to be on the table?

How can you make it more complex? There can only be 2 choices, accept or reject anything else would be a rerun of the referendum which is exactly what the "Peoples Vote" is.

Re: Brexit
 

Why would any Government grant a second vote to the very people who have repeatedly claimed they did not know what they voted for the first time.


https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...J9XAT85WC240hQ

over 63,000 now

Re: Brexit
 

You completely miss the reality of the situation.

Theresa May is out there trying to get a Brexit that is best for Britain. The EU has its red lines, as do we. Eventually, we will get to a position that both sides can accept.

At that point, we have a choice between accepting what the EU is prepared to agree and a hard Brexit. That is all there is. If we then stupidly put other options to the people, this carries with it the obvious problem that the EU will already have gone as far as they are prepared to go. The result of a further UK referendum will not be of any interest to them.

The other half-way measures that many remainers seem to prefer will not deliver what the voting electorate have said they wanted. For example, remaining in the customs union prevents us from forging our own trade deals, which was the thing that really appealed and makes Brexit a good financial option. All the half-way houses have problems attached to them which would not be sensible to contemplate because they put us in a worse position than we are in now.

Corbyn's apparent love for remaining in the customs union betrays how out of touch he is and how confused he is on the whole subject. Unfortunately, a section of the public believes that he knows what he's doing and really believe that remaining in the customs union is better than pulling out of it. Crazy!

Re: Brexit
 

Final Say, Over 999,000 now.

Re: Brexit
 

Actual leave vote tally: 17.4 Million.

I can keep this up all day if you like. You won't win.

---------- Post added at 15:03 ---------- Previous post was at 15:01 ----------

So disingenuous to suggest the demands for a second referendum by the losers march, is for a final say on the deal, it's a demand for a re-run of the referendum, the "Stop Brexit" signs and posters, tells it so. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

I am not responding to you but papa smurf. Fact is 45 million who could vote did not positively vote leave.

So this is how silly it can get.

Re: Brexit
 

You brought that up before and you are conveniently forgetting that they did not vote remain either and more importantly - they don't count.

Re: Brexit
 

Therefore a minority of those who could vote are dictating to the majority. Just the same as every general election since 1935.

A choice on the options on how we leave the EU means the majority who choose to vote would support that option.

I do wonder what people are so afraid of in giving people a choice of how we leave? If the government negotiations were better, I suspect more people would be happy to let them get on with it. Yet all we get are movable red lines and indecisiveness.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Bit of an odd option as nothing would change. However, I would have no problem with re-visiting leaving the EU at some future date. UKIP would have pushed for another referendum had leave lost.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Within 2 years?

---------- Post added at 16:29 ---------- Previous post was at 16:26 ----------

FFS. The majority that chose to vote at the referendum and General Election chose to vote leave. We’ve done it twice already.

And “ how we leave”? Thee are just two ways, with a deal or without one.

Re: Brexit
 

So, if people choose without a deal, then that is what we do.

Why people voted for a particular party at the last election does not prove positive support for leave. Locally people voted both Labour and Lib Dem because they wanted to remain (this was very clear on their election leaflets). Yet the Tories won because people vote Tory no matter what round here.

Oddly enough the constituency voted remain in the EU referendum. So general election support does not equal support for leave. The two main parties have both leave and remain MPs, if most of the remain MP's had lost their seats, then the general election result would backing leave.

Re: Brexit
 

what is the point of the vote then?

. If people felt so strongly that they wanted to stay in the EU they could have voted for a party that would deliver it, there were at least 3 that said they would.

Labour were not remainers, Labour made it quite clear that they would Honour the referendum and leave the EU.


Only the Lib-Dems, SNP and Greens said that they would reverse the referendum.

Re: Brexit
 

No, all we want is a complete break away from the corrupted EU - which is what leaving the EU meant on the ballot paper - not half in, half out.

It did not say "Stay half in the EU or bits of it".

It said to leave the EU, that was what leaving means, you don't hang around, you leave, exit, depart, go away from.

You just don't get it do you, people who do not choose to vote, obviously do not care one way or the other, if they cared that much they would have got off their arses, registered to vote and decided to vote - they did not do so, so they lose their chance to have a say, that's how a free democracy works. They cannot complain after when a decision is made for them and it certainly is not dictating it for them - when they had a chance to participate, to say a minority is choosing for the majority, that is utter rubbish.

Re: Brexit
 

No, what you and some people want is a complete break. Without asking every single person in the UK what they want from Brexit, we have no idea of what they want. You assume the 17.4 million want the same as you. I do not make such an assumption.

When the Leave team were claiming we could leave but still remain in the customs union, do you really think this did not sway some waverers to vote leave. Or the slogan on the bus about the NHS money?

Re: Brexit
 

Complacency mate, even the Government were guilty of it. They thought it would never happen.

I'm willing to stick my neck out and suggest most of those on protest marches are the ones who couldn't be arsed and now feel stupid ;)

Re: Brexit
 

There is no assumption whatsoever. 17.4 Million people voted the same way I did - funnily enough they ticked the box which stated to Leave the European Union. That to me, means exactly that, if someone ticked it, meaning any other thing, then more fool them.

I do not doubt there was some swaying but again, it's all a one sided argument with you. There was lies on BOTH sides of the campaigns, do you not think the lie President Obama made when he said we would be at the back of the queue for trade, swayed people to vote Remain and I say lie because he would have left office by the time Brexit was enacted?

Re: Brexit
 

You assume Obama actually knew the details of what leaving actually involved, rather than seeing a country choose to leave a known market that can negotiate en-block with other countries?

Re: Brexit
 

Well, we all know now actually, he was just singing from the hymn sheet that the Remain camp were singing.

https://news.sky.com/story/cameron-p...rning-11423669

Re: Brexit
 

I don’t think such a claim was ever made? As that wouldn’t be leaving, being in “the” customs unions is essentially the same as being in the Single Market.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

one of biggest mistakes ever that by utter useless Cameron

Re: Brexit
 

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Re: Brexit
 

Without Nick Clegg to veto or sense-check his dafter ideas, he became a poor PM.

Re: Brexit
 

OK, so one MEP potentially, And I haven’t seen his full quote.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Tough shit, you won't get one.

Re: Brexit
 

But it's nonsense! There is only a choice between a deal or no deal! Any other choice will put us in a worse position.

Can you not see that?

Re: Brexit
 

Of course it is nonsense, a vote on the final deal!?! They want a third option - Remain!

Re: Brexit
 

They won't get it!

Re: Brexit
 

So, 3% of the electorate that voted in the referendum.

Or even more telling it’s only 6% of those that voted remain. How in any stretch of the imagination is this some kind of revelation or revolution. 6% of those that lost the vote have been arsed to sign up to this............ooohhhh, yeah

Re: Brexit
 

I know that but they are so disillusional they think they can get a vote on the final deal and sneak that option of remain onto the ballot.

Never in the history of man has there ever been a vote by the electorate on any deal brokered by any government with any trading block or country.

Does this mean that the "Peoples Vote" (if allowed) will be the final arbiter of any trade deal we may make with any country in the future?

That is total nonsense and the so called "Peoples Vote" on the final deal with the EU (if there is one) is nothing more than an attempt to overturn the result of the referendum.

Re: Brexit
 

by that logic only 62000 of the 17 million, 0.36%, who voted to leave can be arsed to sign up to that.......ooooh, yeah

Re: Brexit
 

Correct me if i’m wrong, but leave won. So why would they be arsed to sign up to that petition?

Re: Brexit
 

Now I really believe I live in a different dimension!

We have voted to leave so please....let's just get out!

Re: Brexit
 

Nailed it.

Re: Brexit
 

Very misguided and rubbish logic Hugh. You’re better than this.

Re: Brexit
 

It's not Hugh's logic, he is merely applying Pierre's logic.

Re: Brexit
 

No he is not.17.4 Million is the dominant figure and this is what leaving the EU is based on-end of.

This is now enough of the pathetic number comparing. We’ve had pages of it. The discussion needs to move on now.

Re: Brexit
 

No he isn’t.

If all the wronged embittered remainers were so passionate about the people’s vote, you may of expected a higher number to sign this petition, especially all the young people that we’re told would swing a referendum today if had one.

But only 6% of those that voted leave have been bothered? If take into account those have supposedly changed their mind and those that are now eligible to vote, it’s pretty piss poor and certainly nothing to be flag waving about.

It’s also not an argument to can apply to the counter petition, because leave already won, so there is no real driver for them to campaign against a second vote.

Re: Brexit
 

A cobblers attempt to dig yourself out of a hole there !

You can't present one polls figures, then ignore another one saying the opposite because you don't like it. If you don't rate polls then don't mention them at all.

Re: Brexit
 

By your logic, you don’t rate Brexit so don’t mention it at all.

This is how silly and stupid this topic is getting and btw, I gave an instruction for the topic to move on from the discussion about figures.

Re: Brexit
 

I thought it quite sophisticated.

This whole topic, Brexit I mean, is now just a circular argument.

Both side’s opinions are entrenched, there are no new revelations that are going to be presented that will change either sides views.

It’s all pretty pointless, until a final deal is agreed with the EU, or not. There isn’t much to talk about.

Re: Brexit
 

I try to stimulate serious debate!

Re: Brexit
 

Wrong as usual

---------- Post added at 10:03 ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 ----------

Quite the opposite, the lies that were told by Leave are now starting to be revealed for what they were. As the debacle progresses, the revelations will continue.

Re: Brexit
 

Here are some facts around around Brexit and impact of EU membership from Ipsos MORI so there is plenty to debate there.

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-...-eu-membership

Re: Brexit
 

Must be getting revealed to a very small audience then, as I haven’t read about any lies that have been told.

Re: Brexit
 

The Remain campaign was not exactly truthful, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Whatever was said during the referendum campaign, the vast majority of leavers knew exactly what they were voting for, and why. When there was another opportunity to vote, at the last General Election, it was pretty clear then that most people just wanted to get on with it.

If the reverse was the case, Vince Cable's Lib Dems would have gained a far bigger share of the vote.

Re: Brexit
 

A sample of 2200 people?

Pointless.

Re: Brexit
 

They looked stupid, still it was a nice day out with the kids and the bus was free.

Re: Brexit
 

Quite a few of the 2206 people interviewed didn't answer some questions correctly.........FACT.:)

Re: Brexit
 

:D nice reply, reminds me of that Matilda film :p:

Re: Brexit
 

Come on Pierre, don't be a flat-earther! Ipsos MORI is a reputable organisation with a sophisticated methodology. It may make uncomfortable reading but, relax, it doesn't mean that Brexit won't happen!

---------- Post added at 11:17 ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 ----------

Exactly. Cake and eating it syndrome.

Re: Brexit
 

It doesn't prove anything. Most people do not have such facts at their fingertips - this is just another cheap attempt to discredit those who want to leave.

I'm sure that a similar poll with questions designed to bring out preconceptions of remainers would produce similar results.

Re: Brexit
 

l am certainly not discrediting anybody who wants to leave as that is their choice at the end of the day as we are leaving at the end of the day but l posted it for people to debate and discuss but as usual if people don't agree with it they dismiss it whether its from those who voted for Brexit and those who did not vote for it.

Re: Brexit
 

I really don't know why anyone bothers discussing Brexit. The lines are still as entrenched as they were back in 2016.

Except that people voted to have a minority government do the negotiations, with a team of people who seemingly have no idea what to expect, yet who bleat about EU intransigence, because they do not bother to understand what is within the EU purview to offer.

Some of us want a say on how we exit, I just wonder what the problem is with that, or why the government are negotiating at all if no deal is possible.

Re: Brexit
 

:clap::clap::clap:

---------- Post added at 11:38 ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 ----------

It is exactly the job of King's College's Policy Institute to study such matters. It may not have answers in the report which you or I wanted to hear. But to dismiss it as a cheap attempt to discredit leavers is just disrespectful of other peoples' jobs and skills.

Re: Brexit
 

What's wrong with it is that it would be pointless. Do you really believe that the EU is going to assist us in contemplating a range of options? The deal will be the deal, take it or leave it.

---------- Post added at 12:41 ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 ----------

I think it is pretty obvious that the poll was out to make a political point here. What is the point in asking the public for figures on anything? They are bound to get it wrong.

Ask Diane Abbott, she knows! :D

---------- Post added at 12:43 ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 ----------

I wasn't actually criticising you at all, Den. I was criticising the pollsters, who were either trying to make a political point or they were incredibly naive.

Re: Brexit
 

Let's be honest here: the poll did not have the answer you like so it is "Fake News". As Angua mentioned, no amount of information, evidence, etc. will change the minds of those that are closed.

---------- Post added at 13:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 ----------

A sobering perspective on Brexit from abroad:

A self-destructive madness grips the U.K. as a no-deal Brexit looms

Re: Brexit
 

Roll on March the 29th, I will be drinking a lod of Vodka to celebrate leaving the EU.

What with the BS that the Frecnh will blockage Calais.

OOH I'm so scared, we don't buy any French products so go on then, I'd like to see the other EU countries allowing their products not being shipped to the UK.

Re: Brexit
 

Taken from this page (June 2018) https://www.theguardian.com/business...-jobs-solihull

Hundreds of jobs could be at risk but Solihull plant to be upgraded for electric models


In a statement, JLR said: “This significant investment and technology upgrade in Solihull in order to accommodate our next generation of flagship Land Rover models, and the refit of our Halewood plant for the next Evoque, is proof that we remain committed both to the UK and to transformation and growth.”

Adding that job losses would come from agency staff employed at Solihull, the company said: “The decision to move the Land Rover Discovery to Slovakia and the potential losses of some agency employed staff in the UK is a tough one but forms part of our long-term manufacturing strategy as we transform our business globally.”

Re: Brexit
 

Yes, Polls have been very accurate in recent times...............

Re: Brexit
 

Because the exit you are talking about, is not an exit at all, staying in the Customs Union and or Single Market is remaining in the bloc - no thank you, this goes against leaving the EU!

And the minority argument from you, has been done to death, it's not a minority, people have a chance to vote in elections if they get off their arses, if they choose not to then that is their problem.