re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I look at this way, we are getting embroiled in the saga of politicians telling us, vote Yes to stay in, oir vote to stay out.

This country sends Billions to the EUU, and yet we get less in return.
I spoke with a friend on Wednesday, he said he was voting to stay in the EU. As he most of his work through employing EU workers, and they are cheaper than employing the UK workforce.

And he does most of his work via the EU.

I stated that if we come out of EU, there will still be EU workers that are in the country already.

There is a major problem with the fact that there is a proud British workforce, who cannot get work. As EU workers are taking ANY job, as it pays more than there country

There must be Millions of migrants that are in this country, wether legal or Not. We must control our Borders.

We have to have a control, that says IF you don't have a job in the UK, you cannot come here.

I think Australia have the same policy.

We MUST control our OWN country, and not be dictated by the EU.

Wasn't it Brussels that told us, that we could not call a Marathon Bar, we had to change the name to Snicker bar ?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Wrong and may i suggest you learn how to use a search engine to look up your so called facts before you post them.

" Manufacturer Mars is to bring back the original name in a three-month trial.

It is the latest in a line of relaunches for retro brand names, coming just weeks after the same company announced plans to bring back another former British favourite, Opal Fruits.

Marathon was renamed Snickers in 1990, after Mars decided to scrap the British brand and bring it into line with its global operation. For a period the wrapper of the bar carried both names, before Marathon was removed. The move made the bar something of a cultural reference point.

But the name has now been re-registered as a UK trademark.

Snickers is the best-selling chocolate bar of all time and has annual global sales of £1 billion. It was first created by Mars in 1930 and is believed to have been named in memory of a horse belonging to the owners. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...thon-bars.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm out! Everywhere I look all I hear is out, out, out... But I know what the outcome will be, we'll remain.

http://www.pollstation.uk/eu-referendum/poll/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cool. Let's hope it leads to Brexit.

---------- Post added at 07:02 ---------- Previous post was at 06:56 ----------

And yet Remain say they are not taking our jobs. I think this proves they are.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why the vitriol? Arthur didn't call them facts; that's why he put the question mark there.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Your using one of Arthurs posts as proof :shocked:

As it happens i have never held with the theory that we are losing our jobs to foreign workers .I do accept though that mass immigration makes it harder and that it is easier to operate on the black labour market .What we have in this country is a situation where the benefits of being unemployed are much greater than taking low paid or seasonal jobs ,mainly because of our generous benefit system. Mass immigration tends to depress wage levels as well but i do not accept that immigrants are stealing our jobs .

---------- Post added at 08:23 ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 ----------

Because some idiot will believe that Brussels was actually responsible for losing the Marathon bar and vote accordingly ,i would rather such an important vote be based on facts not the ramblings of Arthur .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't know if you watch the News BBC in the mornings but Stef McGovern has been going round business' trying to get a feel for how they feel about the EU. In one case they admitted employing EU workers as they are cheaper. If that's not taking our jobs I don't know what is. If you were an employer, and I don't know you might be, would you not take someone on who will work cheaper if they had the skills you required?

I agree on that point. Mass immigration does depress wages.

You talk of low paid jobs and our generous benefits system and that's true. When I was working I did 16 hours a week and could take home more than the full time workers. But my question is: Why then are the fruit pickers, tattie houkers, etc. all foreign. Why do the farmers not employ our people to do that instead of importing seasonal workers? My answer is that they don't qualify for these generous benefits as we would. That is just one example. So do you still think they are not taking jobs?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes i do watch the news ,chiefly in the morning before i go to work and have been following Stefs travels. The example you give doesn't show that our jobs are being taken by foreign workers at all ,it shows that the wage level has been depressed by the availability of menial workers .The job would still be available to indigenous workers and it would still have to pay the living wage ,anything else would be illegal .

Farmers use seasonal workers who are able to move around and don't mind the temporary nature of the job ,British born workers tend to want permanent jobs with a career path to follow .All that happens in the farming sector (and most likely anywhere else) is that the labour shortage is filled by available workers ,usually foreign born workers because they meet the criteria needed by the employer.The same job is still there for indigenous workers ,they just don't want it .

In my opinion it is false to claim that our jobs have been stolen by foreign workers ,what has happened is that the labour market has become more competitive and British workers have failed to compete .Having said that ,mass immigration has had a detrimental effect because of the increased competition so to balance out the effect we need to stop the immigration by leaving the EU and make claiming benefits hard and unrewarding so that we encourage people to take up the seasonal and low paid work

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I agree. I used to love going in the fields but my point is you can't get those jobs now for migrants. I'd hardly call it menial as it can be backbreaking work at times but these days it's easier because of the way things are grown.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Farming is a good example to use because it shows how much we depend on foreign workers in certain industries,there is actually a whole industry set up to supply farm workers from across the EU ,one such company here and should we leave the EU we will still need those workers as we always have
Here's another link giving a good perspective of how the farming industry relies on migrant workers

http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/analysis-f...eft-the-eu.htm

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

On Andrew Marr this morning, Yanis Varoufakis (former Finance Minister for Greece) quoted Hotel California in relation to Britain and the EU: "You can check-out any time you like, but you can never leave".

Of course, poorer Countries want us to stay in; those of us who want to leave are in for one hell of a fight whatever happens on 23 June.

Where will it all end? Certainly, not in June whatever the outcome of the vote is.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed and that would probably not stop but the point is we used to do all that work ourselves. I'm not against migration I only want our Government to have the right to control it. It is the only way we can get the figures down to anywhere near what the Government promised in the Election.

---------- Post added at 11:39 ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 ----------

Yes I thought that was an excellent reference he made. It is true because we will still trade with them.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's the first time I've ever agreed with that idiot. Strange days indeed! :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The issue around the amount of rebate can easily be countered by pointing out that the EU wants to reduce and even eliminate it. It has already been reduced. What would it be in 10 years time?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There won't be a rebate in 10 years. I believe they are trying to end it. Or rather other member states do.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36085281

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just like our remaining powers, it will be eroded away until Brussels calls all the shots at which time it'll be too late to do anything about it. Despite the occasional duplicitous, Bliar-like, remarks about learning from mistakes, being less bureaucratic/controlling, blah, blah, blah, they have no intention of doing anything of the sort. Given the wealth of experience we've had over the decades I find it truly astonishing that anyone would believe anything else.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I found it interesting that despite being Chancellor Of The Exchequer, George Osborne did not use official figures to support his argument.

He could have said that we pay a gross amount of £x billion to the EU each year but we receive a rebate of £y million as well as £z million in grants to the UK.

This would have given the public some concrete data to work with and we would have avoided all the pointless argument over how much we pay and how much we receive in our dealings with the EU.

In that way voters would appreciate more any increases in our contribution or reductions in our rebate or grants.

As usual it looks like the Conservatives are trying to use impressions of what is happening to cover the reality.

It would be ironic if David Cameron's Project Fear comments actually spurred people to vote leave or if he was deposed from his position of PM.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

:)

You probably also heard the point he made about the predicted economic disaster being put forward by Remain: he said that from the point of view of the economist, the actual sample for assessment is zero because there is no measure for something (Brexit) that has never happened before.

You probably also saw Tony Blair :rolleyes:.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ebate-election

The Tories are moving against Cameron and may even be willing to prove another General Election to get this. This doesn't help the Leave campaign either as a week they wanted to spend talking about immigration may be derailed talking about the Tory Wars.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well look at it another way I heard on the radio today not sure who was making the comment yet I had to agree that they said no prime minster would ever jeopardise the country for their own gains and all this fear factor is just hot air.

That if it were so true as to the economic down turn if we were to leave they would never have let the vote go forward in the first place on the off chance our economy would crash and we would be isloated from the EU and the rest of the world.

I was voting out anyway but I have to agree I don't think leaving will be anywhere near as bad as predicted

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Me too and I think that we'll do really well if we leave.......and even if we do badly for a while, we'll get over it and move on. With our new found democracy :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think they are under estimating politicians love of power. The good of the country always comes second. This referendum only happened because of the General Election the the threat UKIP to Dave's chances of remaining PM. The promise of a referendum was the only way to retain enough Tory support to win the election. Dealing with the consequences and resultant damage to the country are minor details.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not if they have any sense. Let the Tories fight among themselves and get on with the Leave Campaign. Plenty time after June 23rd to worry about that lot.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Erm, a lot of the Tories who are involved in the squabbles/infighting are leading lights in the Leave campaign - it's not either/or...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What justification would the Tories give to the wider electorate for deposing their leader, and the PM, a year after a General Election which they won? Granted we don't elect the PM directly but let's not kid ourselves that it isn't a significant factor in how people vote. A year or two before an election is typical for a Government changing their leader but 4 years out from an election?

So if Remain wins the referendum they are going to go to the public and say they removed the PM that won the General Election because the majority of people voted with his side on the referendum? It's insane.

---------- Post added at 09:39 ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 ----------

There are only two people left ready to lead the charge:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes and they are concentrating on the Campaign more though they do snipe at each other

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Really?

That's doesn't appear to be reflected in the national media....

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Bring blair and bush back we didn't have any of this nonsense when they were around

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You mean the ones who really want to eradicate our sovereignty; the New World Order people?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2c9PMV3ZJg

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Boris is Campaigning as is Farage. Corbyn's heart isn't in it.

---------- Post added at 14:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------

The same Blair who fracked things up you mean?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Council to pulp EU referendum postal ballots as 'bias' row spreads nationwide

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...s-row-spreads/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

for heaven's sake!

If people are that stupid, I'm surprised they can find their way to the voting booths, with the complexity of breathing and walking at the same time....

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't see how it's biased :confused:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

just re print them with the pen about to put an x in the leave box if its so unimportant .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

On the face of it I agree with you... But commercial companies spend thousands of pounds on marketing experts who specialise in the unconscious subtleties that will affect a person's choice.

For the people who know which way they want to vote, it will make little difference. For undecided people, it could.

Commercial companies don't spend thousands of pounds on this sort of thing for no reason.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

People are super-sensitive about anything that might even hint at bias or giving a nudge to the voter. It's why they're very careful about the wording of the question. As an example they never should have allowed the Scottish Independence question to be what it was. The same goes for polling, any poll that is perceived to have asked questions in the wrong order is discounted. If you were to ask 'Is immigration too high?' or 'Is it better to Remain or Leave for the Economy?' before the questioned that asked 'Should Britain remain a member of the EU?' then the poll would be flawed because they've put a topic favourable to either side at the forefront of the voters mind before asking the question.

I think it's a good idea for them to remove those guides although this:

is an overreaction.

---------- Post added at 22:08 ---------- Previous post was at 21:51 ----------

I mean I had my postal vote though and I didn't have the guide at all. Not sure how common they are. I can see why Leave have a problem with it but I think it was done unintentionally and any effect is minimal if that. It's just though caution that we should avoid anything with the suggestion of bias.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Careful Hugh, there may be a conflict with the views you express in the tobacco thread; for example:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Oh it was deliberate all right make no mistake. As our friend Passingbat pointed out these Companies go out of their way to make it so.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If you can't tell the difference in scale and potential impact between one small graphic on one leaflet and tens of billions of dollars on marketing a product.... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Michael Gove on BBC Breakfast News today said that leaving the EU could mean scrapping the 5% VAT on domestic fuel bills saving the average household £60 a year. This is a good thing but would the Government actually do this? He also said, and I believe he's right that there is no way we can do this if we remain in the EU.

The EU control VAT and once it's here, it's here to stay. Our Government can vary it but they can't scrap it on any items without their permission. Leaving the EU would give us back that control on VAT. I could think of a few things VAT could be scrapped on as I'm sure you all can but one thing is for sure: If we remain in the EU we have no real control over it.

Would we be better off economically if we leave the EU? I think so but I don't think it will be as much as we are led to believe. It all boils down to our ability to control our own affairs. We know we send billions a year to the EU and yes we get some back but the EU tell us what that money is to be spent on, we have no control over it so what is the use? Some will say if we have that control that non essential things may suffer and that is probably true but I think I would rather have the control to spend it on the NHS rather than some useless structure in a City they call art. An example would be the cows in Milton Keynes.

It's all about having control over our own affairs so regardless whether it is better to be in the EU or not becomes irrelevant if you hold that view and some will cast their votes on that principle. Some will cast their votes on the economy. Some will cast their votes on immigration but in the end it still comes down to controlling our own affairs.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Apparently hedge funds and banks are commissions their own private exit polls for the referendum: https://next.ft.com/content/7e26d896...#axzz4A7n202GD

There will be no public exit poll from the broadcasters due to the cost of producing it for a referendum rather than an election (you can't just target swing seats) but if the hedge funds have their own polls, and no legal obligation to hold off on the information until polls close, we may well know the result on the day itself as the markets react to information we can't see.....

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sorry can't read it without subscription. What are they saying?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Pretty much what I have said. Hedge funds and banks are paying for their own internal exit polls and although we can't see the results we're know what they are because the markets will react to them. Sterling increases? Remain? Sudden drop? Leave.

Also because they're not obliged to wait for the 10pm deadline it will progress throughout the day. We'll probably have a good idea what's happened before polls even close.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's coming down to whom do I trust to tell more of the truth..and less of the porkies.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well you're not voting for the leave party or the remain party, you're voting on the future of the U.K. constitution. It's really worth ignoring the campaigns and doing some personal research and reading.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't think any politician is telling the truth ; even if they are no one's believing them.

Interesting bit in the Guardian on the chaos that might follow a Brexit vote. Its a real possibility that it wouldn't actually end up in Brexit.

The bickering and lies will go on long after June 23rd.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...o-leave-the-eu

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Going to this later to see what those guys have to say.

Maybe I'll ask a question about immigration and have Pat Glass call me racist :D

This is an interesting section of a comment from Damien's link:

Could be right. From a purely selfish standpoint the personal case is easier to make for remain.

Another reason why, for all the rhetoric, we will probably vote to remain.

Then continue complaining while politicians act all shocked that nothing has changed for the better and, if anything, we're getting less out of the EU while putting more in.

While we're complaining about getting shafted harder by an ever-enlarging EU other parts of the EU will be complaining that we're holding up their attempts to further integrate, which we inevitably will.

The Liberal Democrats will busily try getting us to integrate more into the EU for, well, whatever reason they support the EU to the extent they do. Their positions on the EU, immigration, etc, make perilously little sense but they are the most determined of the EU-philes.

Jeremy Corbyn will continue his absurdly obvious game of offering luke-warm support while being vehemently against in private, presumably until being replaced by a more 'mainstream' colleague who is a less liberal version of a Liberal Democrat and adores the EU.

David Cameron whenever he leaves office will take either the position in the EU or the ones for 'big business' in the private sector that his work during this referendum has earned him. If the private sector he will be waiting on his colleagues to join him when their asset stripping of the state is complete and it's time for them to benefit personally through directorships, rather than just indirectly through family, business acquaintances, donations, etc.

Finally, at some point, 'I told you so' will set in. Perhaps about the time Germany complete the destruction of the Greek economy after their election in 2018.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

All we are hearing is economic this and economic that and yes it's a relevant factor but what price sovereignty, independence and self determination you won't hear remain talking in those terms as they know damn well what the main plan for the future is. Both sides are indulging in negative campaigning and it is doing nothing but driving people away from the whole thing and this is not even touching the utter mess we are going to have domestically after the 23rd. Conservative party is imploding on this issue and how the hell they will be able to run the nations affairs with any real authority I don't know.

When all three main parties are on the remain side there shouldn't have been the need for what has happened but we now have one hell of a domestic political mess that not even a general election could resolve as right now none of the main three are credible or worth the ink on a vote. Personally I'll take the short term economic hit that comes from brexit in order for us to become a truly independent, sovereign nation able to forge it's own relationships and in control of it's own affairs which will not happen if we vote to stay in. Down that path lies more erosion of sovereignty and our gradual integration into some hideous federal European dream with no realistic long-term future.

I've watched a few question times now and neither side has shifted me one inch apart from deepening my dislike and contempt of paddy ashdown with his ridiculous rhetoric and if it is more then rhetoric then clearly we people in the UK are not what he wants to be around so he should sling his hook and go live his dream in Brussels.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's no wonder people like Ashdown love the EU - it's bloated bureaucracy is full of similarly underwhelming, self serving, blinkered and patronising politicians who rather like being accountable to nobody while enjoying all the perks of the privileged Brussels existence whilst Europe fails around them.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There was a Vote Leave rally in Durham on Sunday but couldn't get there what a bummer.

---------- Post added at 11:37 ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 ----------

They know this will win them the vote. They don't care about anything else.

---------- Post added at 11:39 ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 ----------

Nero fiddling while Rome burns?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I've been flip flopping over this for quite a while. I was initially remain, I crept into the leave camp for a few weeks, but now I'm back in remain.

The main reason being I am pretty much certain, in my own mind, that any deal to access the EU single market after we leave will result in us paying a similar amount of money that we do now, and have to agree to free movement. I also don't think the economy is strong enough at the moment.

I have concerns over the way the EU operates, but the way see it if you're out you're out. Whereas, if we stay in we can still see it out for a period of time. If it gets worse then we can always come out at a later date and we don't need a referendum to get out, just vote UKIP at the next available election as I'm sure EU exit will be No.1 on their manifesto list.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sadly, I don't feel like we can have the 'luxury of further time within the club - it's already been over 40 years since we joined the EEC. For me that option would just represent yet more frustrating years of stagnation in which we're exposed to larger problems (including huge migration related ones) and are drawn further into the complicated EU web. from which it's even harder to extricate ourselves. What really annoys me about all of this is that the EU could have been a wonderful thing if it weren't for the obsession with expansion and the creation of the one size fits all single European state at any cost. I'd happily have remained in the EU if it weren't for that.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Be good to know what your rationale is for our having to pay as much in EFTA as we do now.

Even the Norwegians, whose politicians were desperately trying to get the country into the EU and who are considered by, say Iceland, as being mad given how much they agreed to pay, aren't paying anywhere near as much per head as we do.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Norway pay into the EU 816 million Euro.

http://www.eu-norway.org/eu/Financia.../#.V02boFLwvIU

We pay £8.5 Billion net.

Norway Population 5.2 million
UK Population 65 million.

Fag packet calculation works out Norway £118 per head UK £130 per head

£12 difference

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Interestingly, regions with the highest levels of immigration see the lowest support for UKIP with London being the most extreme example

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not really, you don't often see Turkeys voting for Christmas do you.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This is not good at all:

1. Any deal we reach for the single market will cost nowhere near what we pay now as we won't be paying for the upkeep of the EU, only for the right to trade. We don't know about free movement yet. It may be we have to accept a percentage.

2. The economy is strong enough to handle leaving the EU. Growth is slowing, yes but it's the same the world over and has nothing to do with being in the EU.

3. Dream on. This is a once in a lifetime vote and if you vote to remain you are stuck with it for at least 50 years unless a majority of the public demand a vote and that's not likely if they vote to remain. The EU is NOT going to reform for the better or for our benefit. Plans are afoot for a European Army and Police Force. This with closer Political and Economic integration will mean the UK will have less say in what goes on as they have opted out of these things and would either have to join or be left out in the cold.

No, it's better to get out now as you won't be able to do it within the next 50 years and by then it will be so integrated there will be no chance of getting out without losing financially or otherwise.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The scale is different; the principle isn't ;).

Norway hmph :rolleyes:. Our economy is bigger, we have more trade clout. Losing our custom will hurt the EU. They're not that stupid.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Whichever way you do end up voting I am pretty much voting to Remain for the same reasons you listed there in the 2nd paragraph. However like you it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the way EU does things that's deciding my vote, I think very few Remain voters don't think Leave has some good points. In the end for me I can't see what issues that affect me solves but I can see it causing new problem (i.e economic hit).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Wouldn't that have a lot to do with the large number of people of immigrant origins in London? Where they're entitled to vote (and hence show their support or otherwise for UKIP) it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't support UKIP en masse. To properly assess UKIP's appeal in London you need to look at borough level and take into account the ethnic makeup of each.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

A vote to remain is not a vote for status quo. The EU is changing and your democratic right of control of the issues that affect your everyday life will be virtually non-existent.

Our laws and democracy have served us rather well for hundreds of years; why give it up?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't think we can. this is i, I think

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's pretty much my thinking to. Perhaps if leave hadn't played the same tune as remain with the lies and scaremongering they'd have secured my vote

---------- Post added at 17:34 ---------- Previous post was at 17:33 ----------

Yes it's very interesting that people almost untouched by Immigration are so against it

---------- Post added at 17:37 ---------- Previous post was at 17:34 ----------

I said the same as pierre a few weeks back, we can only leave once but we can revisit leaving whenever the public wills it

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I agree with Pat...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFt-pRIvL9E

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Forget the shenanigans of Leave and Remain. Read Chris's post:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Interesting that you've discounted the notion that the ticking financial timebomb in the EU is a bigger economic hit waiting to happen. :shrug: The problems in Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy etc. haven't gone away and what makes you think that, if we stay in, we won't wind up suffering a worse hit - directly by being part of the club (bale outs) and indirectly? :shrug:

I know I've said this before but given the growing social, economic and political chaos in Europe why would anyone think being in it would be less risky than getting out? If things were looking up I'd agree that it would make staying in less of a gamble but so many things are getting worse not better. :confused:

Having said that, at least you have a reason - IMHO basing how to vote on the tactics of one side or the other is a pretty poor reason.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So very true. The EU has an agenda for a United states of Europe; they don't even hide the fact.

The paltry concessions that David Cameron 'negotiated' shows how Britain has got no chance of halting that. The promise from David Cameron of no more integration is worthless; integration will come via the back door through secretly negotiated trade deals such as TTIP.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Of course yes, I mean they really bottled it when DC went looking for renegotiated terms on the threat of UK leaving. They absolutely caved in they were so scared.

Everybody quotes the BMW/AUDI/VW factor that Germany will want to sort out a deal. But look at it from the other foot. We'll still want to buy them, if there is a levy put on those cars because we're out of the EU do you think we're suddenly all going to start buying KIA's. No BMWs will just cost more, and those that can afford to buy new BMW's still will.

Likewise with Champagne (I don't buy French wine anyway, more of a new world man)

If we come out I don't think the EU will be rushing to sort out our FTA and I don't think they give us any special concessions either.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nobody in their right mind drinks French wine: The whites are battery acid, the reds stewed teabags and as for the sparkling stuff it's just a liquidated ash tray.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

its jilly goolden -i;m getting ash tray old tea bag and a subtle hint of ever ready :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Because I think that would hit us either way. We can't isolate ourselves off from Europe and they will continue to be a big trading partner for us. Now that trade will take a hit if we do leave Europe, in my opinion, which would help protect us a bit but only in the sense that we'll have done the damage anyway. Alternatively if the Leave campaign are right that we'll keep the benefits of the single market then we take the economic hit in the EU or not in the EU.

If the EU is a sinking ship then all Leave are offering is the option to jump overboard. Either way we're going to drown. Better to try and steer the ship or hope it avoids any icebergs.

The thing is Europe will still be there with their problems. People will still be able to take advantage of their open borders and end up in Calais. Their economic regulations will still apply in any businesses here that wish to trade with Europe, albeit those that don't won't be bound by them, and any economic crash will take us along with it.

I think this article sums up the cautious conservatism of many Remain voters: http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/a...for-voting-in/ (open in private/incognito mode if it's paywalled for you).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You'd be right that waiting until it's too late wouldn't be wise and that's why we need to act now, not in another few years when it's all either happened or imminent. From where I'm sitting getting off the sinking ship while we have time to take measures to mitigate the fallout to whatever extent is possible. Nobody honestly believes there's a no risk/damage option but staying on a ship which refuses to change course (despite the mess Europe's in) is guaranteed to work out badly. A serious question - do you really think the EU will see sense and change course? If so, what makes you think that?

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:35 ----------

On a separate note, I'd be interested to know how other forum members are tackling these issues at home re children who are voting. I long ago told Osem Jnr. that I don't want to know how he's voting and that I'll never ask him. Sadly, he has far more at stake than I do and I don't want to influence him at all so we won't be discussing it unless he wants to.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I've not made my mind up yet (even though my vote came today).

The main reason that those voting to leave are giving to me is the amount of EU immigrants coming here (which I sympathise with). However, isn't there some sort of agreement that prevents us ridding ourselves of the immigrants that we don't want (either due to quantity or quality)?

If we do leave the EU, what's to stop them coming in illegally or making spurious/false asylum claims like others do from non EU countries?

We would still have immigrants defecating, urinating, begging, stealing etc in public at various hotspots.

I think that just because a person lives in another EU country, that this entitles them to live wherever they want is totally ridiculous.

If we have to have this arrangement, at a very minimum, they should be able to demonstrate that they have a job, a home and savings to keep themselves in the UK before they are allowed in.

How about a 'one in one out' policy? Eg if a Pole wanted to come here, this would only be allowed if one UK person wanted to live in Poland.

What the hell did they think was going to happen after letting poor countries join Europe and allowing them to live where they want??

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They knew exactly what would happen just like Merkel did - a nice mobile army of cheap labour and to hell with the consequences...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well I think we should be more assertive in dealing with the EU. We seem to sit it out too much and then complain when things don't go our way magically. Germany and some other nations demanded exemptions for their medical services in TIPP and we didn't but now complain about the threat of it on the NHS?

I don't think we're going to convince each other. :D Does help to understand why though.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'd agree. Thatcher was the only one who really got anything done on our behalf and banged a few heads together. Time's moved on and things have changed, however, so I can't see the Germans letting that happen again any time soon which amounts to yet another reason for leaving. ;)

I heard Theo Paphitis being interviewed the other day and he reckoned we should call their bluff and vote out in the knowledge that only that would force them to change tack and actually allow us to stay in a better EU which I believe most people would welcome In an ideal world I'd buy all that but these people don't like losing face - personal egos, national pride, resentment etc. are powerful forces not to be underestimated in difficult times. The stuff wars are made of in fact...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There are other reasons for Brexit. Britain not only needs to have complete control of immigration, but also complete control of all our laws and all our tax policies.

All the above need to be set by a government that can be elected and unelected by the British people only.

This will not be the case if we stay in the EU. More and more of the above will be decided by the EU. The laws will be proposed by an unelected body, that can not be thrown out, and these laws will be voted on by a European parliament, which the British representatives will obviously be a minority in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Forget immigration it's a false argument and proof that leave are as inept as remain who use their version of scaremongering. As for trade it's a two way street between us and the rest of the EU we both benefit from continuing free trade and it makes zero sense for either side to complicate it or indulge in trade tariffs of stupid levels. I think what I'm most sick of hearing is how voting to leave is somehow turning our back on Europe and how we will become inward looking and for a lot of us leavers it's a load of rubbish. Voting to leave is the best thing we can do for the whole of Europe and our leaving will allow the UK to get back on the global stage being able to make positive choices for everyone, not tied to those agreements given the green light from Brussels.

Also seeing more and more with this "we can come out later if we are not happy" no you can't look how long it took to get this referendum and the circumstances it took for it to happen the chances of this happening anytime soon after June 23rd is laughable. By hook or by crook and given the EU's past crook more likely, leaving will be made more difficult to do in future I give it a year tops if the UK votes to remain before there is another big EU summit meeting and a brand new treaty. As for voting ukip to get out in future I'd rather chew my own arm off then ever vote for ukip same as the vast majority at the minute and voting them in to get out of the EU with the catastrophic consequences of them in power even for a short while not a chance.

Another fallacy thrown around a lot is this "you've got to be in it to change it" really and this is based on what proof exactly, we are the fifth biggest economy in the world having a vote to leave and to keep us in they agreed to what meaningful reforms??? NONE. The EU hierarchy have no interest in reform because they don't believe it needs reforming the plan and march to the U.S.E is right on course and so far everyone has moaned about it but ultimately not done a thing to halt the progress. There isn't going to be a single meaningful reform until they get the political equivalent of a punch to the jaw the UK leaving would be that it would open debate on the EU in a way that has never been done and allow all member states to stand up and actually be able to demand reform.

I'm not anti European far from it I want a Europe working together in all terms for the better of all Europe and the world and if the EU was working that way I'd be voting remain and flying the EU flag but the EU isn't doing that. It is being run by a group with a single vision and neither the imagination or the creativity to make the EU into a positive force or to adapt to changing global circumstances it's control by committee in the worst way.

I believe Europe is stronger and safer by all nations remaining independent sovereign states that best use their collective power to further a positive agenda and make a positive impact on the whole world. Not by trying to force over thirty different nations (that will be the number by the time they try complete federalism) to be one federal state governed by unelected officials whose interests and agendas have nothing to do with the people of Europe and I have faith that those nations have progressed sufficiently that we are not going to be at each other's throats without the great eu to keep us peaceful, what a crock.

I'm going to do the best thing I can for Europe on June 23rd I'm voting to leave an undemocratic, stagnant and failing project and giving a hope to all those in Europe who feel the same and are waiting for something to spur them into action. Right now we have lazy and incompetent politicians on both sides negatively campaigning to scare us into their agenda but we have a chance to show them there are so many more possibilities available to us by doing the unthinkable and leaving and that we as individuals can both rise above and see beyond the blinkered vision they have.

Have confidence in ourselves as a people and that our nation has the strengths and values this world needs and put aside personal materialistic or selfish reasons and do something truly worthwhile on June 23rd make a start to maybe a better world.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If it's that important they should've made a better fist of securing my vote. I'm not convinced by the arguments and they have done nothing to change my mind, they're the ones that should hang their heads in shame when and if the result goes against them

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We won't be allowed to

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

A bunch of here today gone tomorrow politicians won't be influencing my vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You aren't comparing like for like there for a couple of reasons, not least of which that Norway has a way higher GDP per capita than we do, and contributions are based on that.

If we had the same GDP Norway do we'd be paying nearly 2.5 times as much.

Also worth a look at http://euquestion.blogspot.co.uk/201...orway-pay.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Most people I know are extremely concerned about immigration.

I really believe that this will be a deciding factor for many people who would otherwise vote to stay. I can see why after seeing these foreign vagrants at Marble Arch recently. I have genuinely seen animals behave better- even cats cover their faeces after defecating outdoors.

Thankfully the days of people listening to the PC brigade and their shouts of racism everytime immigration or criticism of said immigrants is made appears to be drawing to an end.

---------- Post added at 00:29 ---------- Previous post was at 00:28 ----------

Exactly.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They could've changed my mind relatively easily, I used to be very anti eu, long before it was fashionable but sadly it was beyond them to put a case forward so I think I'll be sticking with remain

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So you'll be voting on what's in vogue rather than voting with your conscience.

Good call.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Clearly as I'm voting for something not very fashionable, thanks for your input though, it's been invaluable :dozey:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nonsense. What Leave are offering is an alternative to the sinking ship. Remain are beginning to sicken me now with their antics. Leave have proposed an Australian style points system for workers coming in from the EU and Remain say it will wreck the economy. What a load of bull-locks! Has it wrecked Australia's economy? It seems everything Leave propose will wreck or damage the economy. Remain don't have a valid reason to remain in the EU and so everything that's said by anyone who opposes them will wreck the economy.

---------- Post added at 07:49 ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 ----------

I'd like Remain to tell me how we are 'Stronger in Europe' when our voice in that den of thieves is getting weaker and will continue to do so the more integrated the EU becomes?

---------- Post added at 08:01 ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 ----------

And if you are in any doubt as to what remaining in the EU really means regarding Political and Economic integration, this from the Economist in 2015 should help.

Everything you need to know about European political union

IN AN interview on July 26th with the Financial Times, Italy’s finance minister, Pier Carlo Padoan, said his country supports a decisive move towards European "political union". The euro crisis and the recent bitter negotiations over a rescue programme for Greece have prompted many such calls for more European integration, often employing the same phrase, "political union"; in other quarters, the crisis has led to furious resistance to the idea of "political union". All of this raises the question: when Europeans refer to "political union", what do they mean?

Isn’t the European Union already a political union? Isn’t that rather the point of the whole project?

http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...st-explains-20

So if this is what Remain want then by all means vote to stay. Personally, I think it would be a big mistake as we won't be able to get out of it for at least another 40 - 50 years and by then it just may be too late. Thank God I won't be around to see it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But they still want to set up an FTA with the sinking the ship and the sinking ship will set the terms of that deal.

The terms will almost certainly require us to pay in a considerable amount to the EU and require free movement of labour which will torpedo the proposal below.

wont happen if you want a FTA with the EU.

---------- Post added at 08:52 ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 ----------

I can't see it, maybe I missed it. But where does it state that the amount of contributions to the EU FTA and other EU programmes are based on the GDP of the state?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You are basing your theory of an FTA post Brexit on a flawed argument.

See this: re-FTA

" Reciprocity is a necessary feature of any agreement. If each required party does not gain by the agreement as a whole, it has no incentive to agree to it. If agreement takes place, it may be assumed that each party to the agreement expects to gain at least as much as it loses. Thus, for example, Country A, in exchange for reducing barriers to Country B’s products, thereby benefiting A’s consumers and B’s producers, will insist that Country B reduce barriers to Country A’s products, benefiting Country A’s producers and perhaps B’s consumers."

source https://scm.ncsu.edu/scm-articles/ar...national-trade

See also

The EU obtains its revenue from four main sources:

Traditional own resources, comprising customs duties on imports from outside the EU and sugar levies;
VAT-based resources, comprising a percentage (around 0.3%) of each member state's standardised value added tax (VAT) rate;
GNI-based resources, comprising a percentage (around 0.7%) of each member state's gross national income (GNI); and
Other resources, including deductions from EU staff salaries, bank interest, fines and contributions from non-EU countries

sourcehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget...European_Union

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No I'm not.

Free movement of labour is a fundamental principal of the EU and the EEA.

If you want to be part of the EEA then you will have to agree to the free movement of Labour. That is an irrefutable fact.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The EU as a politicial organisation has no incentive to give the UK favourable terms post Brexit as it will only encourage other states to look at leaving themselves. If it took two years for Greenland to set up treaties with the EU post independence with 55,000 residents and pretty much only one industry then how long would it take for the UK to negotiate a trade agreement?

Personally, I think the EU would let the UK dangle after the two year exit period is up so we would be working to WTO tariff rates under MFN rules. As an example, this would include 48% tariff on milk, 22% on meat, 12% on goods vehicles, etc. Ouch.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If the EU does put tariffs on trade then we do the same but being out of the EU would allow us to setup better trade deals in the wider world with far more dynamic economies then those in the EU and get a better deal for the UK. Add in that being out of the EU would allow the UK to tailor things better for inward investment and a short term hit if it comes from the EU can be overcome by better global trading with far more nations. From the business people I've talked too many of them dealing with the EU they don't have the doom and gloom we see daily and they say quite a few businesses are far more positive then the public would believe, there is also a lot of discontent with the CBI who apparently are not truly representing the attitudes and opinions of an increasing amount of businesses.

We are being bombarded with worst case scenarios to scare people and make them fearful of leaving from an establishment too limited to see anything other then their own agendas.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The least you can do is post a link to your source as I have done when needed.

---------- Post added at 09:54 ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 ----------

I am not talking about being part of the EEA, I'm talking FTA, there is a fundamental difference.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No there really isn't. We would either have an EFTA-EEA agreement with the likes of Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein.

http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreement

Or we could enter into our Bi-lateral agreement like Switzerland has.

https://www.eda.admin.ch/dea/en/home...eberblick.html

In both of these cases not only have the countries had to agree to free movement of Labour, they are in the Schengen zone - so no border or passport controls

At least at the moment the UK is not in Schengen.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You obviously don't realise what an FTA is. An FTA is a two way street, nothing more, nothing less. It is purely trade orientated.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You can be as naïve as you like.

If you want access to the EU single market you have to open your borders. It is really as simple as that.

http://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/index_en.htm

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes it makes me laugh when people give the impression that we'll be able to just demand another referendum and get it. How exactly? :confused: Right now both the main parties want us to stay in and that isn't going to change. It took decades to get this referendum FGS!

There's only one conceivable way in which we'll get offered a second referendum and that's if we vote to leave. Now why does that sound familiar when it comes to the EU eh?? :confused: :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Of course my friend - pages 7 and 8 here

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We can leave the EU anytime we like. Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon provides for this.

You don't need a referendum the government of the day can just do it. Although a referendum makes sense if you want to have a clear mandate.

Or you vote for a party that has a clear manifesto pledge to leave the EU, such as UKIP did in 2015.

http://www.ukip.org/ukip_manifesto_summary

It's very simple.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Disregard the politicians altogether. Your heart is motivating you to leave because your own experience has led you to be anti-EU in the past.

Trust your own judgement; remain is actually the riskier option. In Europe no-one can hear you scream :).