Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Already posted in the feedback newsgroup;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes I read it.
Input = All web browsing data
Process = analyse and code to target ad sector
Output = database of cookie code | ad sector | timestamp
Output = Decode and debug database

To an extent I am not concerned about the output, he is right the outputs are largely anonymised data of limited use to anyone but the software serving ads on the OIX opted in sites.

The concern and the piece they keep skirting around is whether the input is personal data and whether the process itself is illegal under RIPA.

The secondary concern is that while now they say we don't have catagories for pron and ed and diabeties and don't scan https that does not mean that they cannot it means the do not and in the future a change to the code could mean they do.

The royal mail / post office is not allowed to open my mail, BT, VM etc are not allowed to wiretap my phone line, conceptually this is the same.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

One can now add fraud to the list of probable illegal operations that the Phorm system makes. Assuming that is that 'pretending' to be a website (cnn.com in the given example) is fraud . . .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi. It's Alex @ Phorm

The ICO has posted its latest statement on Phorm, which includes the following:

"They assure us that their system does not allow the retention of individual profiles of sites visited and adverts presented, and that they hold no personally identifiable information on web users. Indeed, Phorm assert that their system has been designed specifically to allow the appropriate targeting of adverts whilst rigorously protecting the privacy of web users."

The full statement is here: http://www.ico.gov.uk/about_us/news_..._releases.aspx

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That quote doesn't tell us that the ICO think Phorm is ok, it tells us that Phorm have told them it's ok.....

In fact they make no recommendations about Phorm, they provide no opinions on Phorm, and they give no indication as to how the public feel about Phorm.

They simply repeat the same tired old junk that we've heard from Phorm, without giving any clear direction.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

All you are quoting is that which Phorm have told the ICO... :rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And perhaps you would be so kind as to tell us what your role is. PR perhaps?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Picked up by the beeb

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7331493.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you, without wanting to sound patronising, I think most of those contributing to this thread understand that Phorm does not allow the retention of indiviually identified data. The concern is how you get to that data, that involves reviewing lots and lots of individually identifiable data. It is the inputs and analysis, not the output that is the problem.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Such a nice lead paragraph...

Technical analysis of the Phorm online advertising system has reinforced an expert's view that it is "illegal".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Very dissapointing, they have appeared to accept Phorm at face value, and not considered phase II and III etc. Phorm says it's ok so it is!

"We have spoken to BT about this trial and they have made clear that unless customers positively opt in to the trial their web browsing will not be monitored in order to deliver adverts."

BT weasel words - it might not be monitored to deliver adverts, but will still be monitored, just no adverts.

How does this sit with Richard Clayton's earlier release? Looks like this will have to be tested in the courts, which won't be a bad thing.

Complaints about the Information Commissioner to your MP please.

--- added ----

“We will continue to maintain close contact with Phorm and BT throughout the trial. Clearly the trial should reveal whether this is a service that web users want, whether it is privacy friendly and that users are comfortable with the privacy safeguards put in place by Phorm.”

They are waiting to see how many people complain, not doing their job. They know most people will not even give a thought as to what is happening given the way it is intended to be deployed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They didn't even go that far, all they said was "Phorm says it's ok.....".

What next? 'Mr Bin Laden says there's no problem, so we're withdrawing all the troops.....'

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Unfortunately he doesn't get very far in that interview without being very economical with the truth. In fact if I wasn't feeling charitable I'd say his very first answer was an outright lie.

The previous product was malware, plain and simple. Trying to call it "adware" rather than the more correct "spyware" is fairly desperate spin. It was software which installed itself surreptitiously, hid itself from users and the operating system, took extreme measures to prevent its own removal and required extraordinary effort to finally get rid of. Of course, it also delivered your browsing habits to advertising servers: remind me why they claim this isn't spyware again? Look up Apropos rootkit for info, here's one to get you started.

I'd suggest you have a good read of the comments thread on that Register interview by the way. If you manage to wade through some of the more excitable members of the readership, there's still a very clear thread of reasoned argument against this company.

Moving to the FIPR write-up, it looks a lot like Phorm don't (or didn't when the meeting took place) actually understand the law as it applies to their system.

Let's go through this statement:

"they assume that their processing is generic and so it cannot be interception" - in which case, I'd suggest they need to hire better lawyers. The process is indisputably an interception under RIPA - their only get-out from this act is consent, which they empatically do not have on most people's reading of the law.

"they assume that their business processes gives them the right to impersonate trusted websites and add tracking cookies under an assumed name" - they'd better be _very_ sure of the Fraud Act 2006 and/or the Computer Misuse Act 1990, as mentioned.

So some very technically and legally aware people have looked at this in great detail, speaking to the company involved, and they are _still_ convinced that this is illegal, very possibly under more than one statute. Please tell me how this opinion is based on emotion and mistrust.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's the same old Phorm led song and we still haven't had clear, honest answers to prove beyond doubt that the supposedly anonymised data cannot ever be turned into identifiable data.

It's what isn't said that glares out at me. The complete lack of addressing the two IMO illegal secret trials that BT undertook. The ICO is in a position to launch an investigation with its own experts yet fails to do so.

I'm on the verge of quoting Bill Hicks again so I'd better go for another cup of tea...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just rain thought you and phorm management plus shareholders were in the middle of hurricain phorm. :D

I have to disagree with you my clicks are my property you are going to pay my ISP money for this information.. by definition then my ISP has sold my private details to you for money.


You say that now but looking at the patent for phorm it has the ability to collect IPs plus much more next question do I trust the Phorm managment to not amend what this program does at a later date... Well with his past history would you.


We only have the word of phorm management about this, trust is small word now do we trust phorm management enough knowing this system has the ability to identify us later on.


I look after my own online security never had a problem I will always look after my own online security. Hence no need for phorm.


I move monday to Aquiss.net small company with no plans to jump into bed with phorm. One month contracts so can always move if needed but seems many of their customers have been there for years.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well it strikes me that they are just waiting to see which way the wind blows, rather than raising the wind themselves. I thought they were there to provide the lead.

Time to double efforts with MP's etc, HMG and it's various arms will be as useful as a chocolate teapot.

---------- Post added at 20:16 ---------- Previous post was at 20:09 ----------

With respect, it's not. It's the ICO saying it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: No.29
:welcome: No.30

;)

and OC :welcome: to the many other new voters above

i find this most interesting from a tech POV , not twice redirected as thought ,but 3 times...

so your datastream is going from a zero redirect, to 3 times redirected, nice and slow then..., is this a new form of STM LOL.
http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2...ebwise-system/
"
Much of the information was already known, albeit perhaps not all minutiae. However, there were a number of new things that were disclosed.

Phorm explained the process by which an initial web request is redirected three times (using HTTP 307 responses) within their system

so that they can inspect cookies to determine if the user has opted out of their system, so that they can set a unique identifier for the user (or collect it if it already exists), and finally to add a cookie that they forge to appear to come from someone else’s website.

A number of very well-informed people on the UKCrypto mailing list have suggested that the last of these actions may be illegal under the Fraud Act 2006 and/or the Computer Misuse Act 1990.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I said Phorm led song. The words may be coming from the ICO's mouth but it looks very much like Phorm's lyrics to me. I'm growing less and less impressed with this supposed guardian of privacy rights. Hence the letters.

I could sing (actually, better not) I Should Be So Lucky and although it's my voice, the lyrics are still by Pete Waterman's Hit Factory (did you know Pete Waterman is hugely into trains?).

Just my perception.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can you just imagine how many are going to do the same when VM issue that letter that says "sod you we are going to sell your data to a spyware company and what are you going to do about it ?"

I tell you what i will do about it i will move just like everyone else will do.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the opinions everyone ..except this one. I came for debate/views on opposition's standpoint in order to help form my own opinions. Someone just had to get ill-tempered I suppose.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

mark44, did you vote before you formed your opinion, you do know you cant recast your vote once you become fully informed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Some of us care about civil liberties, privacy rights and the fact that big business shouldnt be above the laws of the land. If you dont that is of course your right but many here do. Thats why people are "ill-tempered"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No, I haven't voted either way.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I reckon the government want phorm type powers over the internet and therefore are allowing the system to be deployed so that they can abuse it too, probably just another big brother system for them to add to the list.

personally think the whole concept is flawed , because for many home users one login on a pc is normal for the whole family, hence the targeting just wont work anyway, and from the privacy standpoint (having used similar systems in my role at the largest internet security company)it will be easy for the developers to rake in personal info with very little effort.

maybe European laws can help? doubt it though, a friend who works for VM told me its defiantly gonna be deployed.:(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

3 - The L7 switch ignores non 80 traffic (as it is currently programmed, they could reprogram it at any time)
? Is this why the transparent proxys have been killed off, can we all browse on port 8080 instead to avoid this or will phorm just add that port to the switch rules and the 307 redirects ?

4 - An L7 switch also understands every other TCP/IP protocol so changes to the programming could again mean it could read data on any other port.

35 - inspects only text/html, but what if other flags were put in there instead. It will start inspecting them

36 - again whitelists - change the content of the whitelist and you change what is profiled

37 - again whitelist of exclude 'basic auth' - take it away and you can profile it.

38 - Webmail. Well my webmail is on port 2096 and 2083 of my server so I guess it is not included in the 'more than 25 sites'. Maybe it will be covered by the 'basic auth' or the 'https' but Phorm can take them away.

43 - So you could probably block Phorm by putting an exclusion on robots.txt but phorm won't tell us what they refer to their bot as, sounds like it will impersonate googlebot (is that allowed).

49 - So they designed the software to ignore zip codes but not post codes, or canadian post codes or or or.

86a - If they can't tell this how can they give feedback to their advertisers?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From the BBC news story

-> http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7331493.stm

Think we know where most of those queries came from ;)

Keep it up!

Oh, and Alex - more than a few hours kip mate; don't want you burning out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hmmm, Kent's only got 14.21%

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/L...spx?id=1803935

As a result of the issuance of placing shares in the Company’s approximately £32 million institutional placing announced on 19 March 2008, the Company is aware that the following investors now have the percentage shareholdings shown below:

at 3 April 2008

Number of Common Stock % of Issued Common Stock
Kent Ertugrul 1,964,885 14.21%
Gestrust SA 1,299,661 9.40%
Dartley Holdings, Inc 629,527 4.55%
Valerie Boffy No longer notifiable No longer notifiable

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Actually, he's got more than 14.21% He owns Dartley Holdings, Inc :D

So he's actually got 18.76%

Actually.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From Richard Clayton's technical paper on the Phorm system;

"29. If the user does not accept any cookies in the webwise.net domain then they will always be allocated a new identifier for every website they visit. This situation is detected by the Layer 7 switch and the IP address is “blacklistedâ€ÂÂ� and future traffic is not redirected."

If my IP address is blacklisted by the Layer 7 switch and as a result my future traffic is not redirected, why am I still allocated a new identifier for every website I visit?
Also, does "not redirected", in this context, mean that none of the 307-redirects occur? Does my original page request goes straight to the intended website, and it's response comes straight back to me with no diversion to any of the 3 machines described in Richard's document?

I'm not a tech, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

On a different note...the lead article on the BBC Technology News site is about Phorm, and has the word "illegal" in the headline; the two links to related articles each have the word "illegal" in their titles too. Let's hope subliminal messaging is all it's cracked-up to be. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

as a side thought, did anyone go looking for any US legal rulings against these companys and executive yet?

---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 21:59 ----------

it appears so,up to a point (and this is not a getout for them because.>), however, (remember the EU Data commissioners comments) your personal IP's still being directed as an extra path, to the Layer7 (AKA "deep packet inspection",profiler) kit.

its still being collected, and its still being processed ,it cant be any other way as the "deep packet inspection" kit needs to work on your data stream to determine if you have that (unlawful, chattles?) cookie on your machine.


only TT/CPW have seen fit to make the statement they wont divert your stream to the "deep packet inspection" kit if you opt-out, and so, if they keep to their word (keep your eyes on them to be sure) then this "deep packet inspection" doesnt get a look in, the same cant be said for BT or VM as yet.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Clearly these ar***oles had advance warning of publication, by a public body. It is clear where the Government is going with this.

To HMG, I accept your right, with a warrant, to spy on me and other people. I see the benefit, it protects me from being blown-up, from kids being molested or worse and other heinous crimes being committed.

I do not see why you should allow it, without a warrant, for 'better adverts', that I don't want. :mad:

I can afford to go Phorm free, via satellite and a provider in a decent country if required, but what about the vast majority of voters?

Is there any pattern noticed by people on this forum as to responsiveness from Labour or opposition MP's? Have the Labour back-benchers been told to shut-up? Are opposition MP's more responsive?

I just want to know if we are taking on a scummy business idea or, a scummy business idea backed by government?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap: :clap: :clap:

The latter, I fear. Ever read "Captive State"? They're privatising your privacy (and no, you can't buy shares.)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The thing that really scares me about this is not Phorm, Not VM or BT. But the ICO

When T5 were planning to collect fingerprint data on passengers, The ICO stepped in very quickly and the fingerprint plan was dropped among lots of Positive how good we are being PR spin.

Yet 4+ weeks on since the Phorm story broke, despite the experts saying that this is illegal both the ICO and Plod do nothing.

Then when they do finally say something the issue a PR spin Phorm written press release.

And they say china is bad.. UK PLC who do not give a crap for the security and privacy of the population.

At least if I buggered of to china I would be opting-in to privacy invasion.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think it is important that have a simple position statement which we can socialise amongst the masses of ordinary, non-technical web users.

I have therefore tried to summarise the Phorm issues and questions for the intelligent layman, journalist and politician at http://www.whyphormisbad.org/

Please let me know via email or this forum whether you think this is a good idea, and if so let me have any comments or suggestions for improvements.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What's really worried me about all this is the conversation that goes something like (ISP to Government).

"If we get prosecuted, you know that we will have to tell the court all about the 'unofficial' things we do for you, don't you? Just to help our defence"

Anyone written to the Queen?

(Not joking).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A good idea - This is the sort of site that the BBC News site should be listing in it's external links list for Phorm-related articles (although they probably won't with it's current URL because it is in the form of a judgement statement - i.e. "this is bad" - and they're very careful about not appearing to be taking sides)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's excellent, in my view,

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I could always do it on another url if you think that would be helpful. if you'd like to suggest an alternative to whyphormisbad, please do.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

QuestionsforPhorm?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

if your intent is to inform and educate these people, its probably good to highlight the Deep packet inspection,at the top,and include this from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_packet_inspection

"
Deep packet inspection (and filtering) enables advanced security functions as well as internet data mining, eavesdropping, censorship, etc.

Advocates of net neutrality fear that DPI technology will be used to privatize the Internet."

---------- Post added at 23:20 ---------- Previous post was at 23:17 ----------

it might even be good to include
"
Lawful intercept
Service providers are required by various governments around the world and their agencies to allow lawful intercept capabilities.

This had been previously met by creating a traffic access point (TAP) using an intercepting proxy server that connects to the government's surveillance equipment.

Now that this functionality can be included in the DPI, DPI products that are "CALEA-compliant" can be used as a TAP to collect a user's datastream.[4] "

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Portly_Giraffe - you have a PM ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree 100%. But it needs to say "Advertising people want to look at all the web pages you visit so they know what you are interested in", or words to that effect. And then give a bit more info.

Portly, you have a great idea, but the first line can't go into deep packet inspection. They are not techies and will turn off.

I've asked before on this forum if there was a simple page that describes what's going on, but there isn't really. BadPhorm gives the lowdown, but for techies.

If we could come, together on this forum, to a simple, true and accurate description of what's going on, Portly, would you be prepared to host it?

It could be linked to in e-mails etc., but needs to be nice and simple and explain to people just what they are giving up for no real benefit.

You really have done a good job!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We will see what ICO say when I make a complaint to the Parliamentary Ombudsman against them for failing to enforce the Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations 2003 (A European Directive).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, certainly, I'd be prepared to host it.

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions so far. I'll incorporate them as the weekend progresses and hopefully together we can build a simple and powerful message.

Anyone else want to chip in on calling the site QuestionsforPhorm?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Go get 'em Tiger! And nice paper, by the way - I've just read it at http://www.paladine.org.uk/phorm_paper.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I slept a bit longer than I expected to, will be doing some more work on it once I have eaten.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I dislike the way this is handled for a few reasons..
1 The ICO shouldn't be just accepting what you say to them as how it works they should be deep pocket sniffing at what it can do once you are let lsoe with it.

2 Government not coming out suporting the public fears on this product smells to me... When can we find out which companies have paid into the governments fighting funds?


3 Time to use our democratic right at the polls and vote in people who do care about our privacy not willing to sell us down the river to those with dirty hands from the spyware industry using dubious methods.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would certainly contribute if it kept to a simple, true, clear message for Mr Average WWW user. Anyone know how we go about this?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

4 April 2008
Phorm advertising – ICO statement

A spokesperson for the Information Commissioner’s Office said:
“The ICO has received a number of queries :confused: concerning the recent announcement by Phorm that 3 major UK Internet Service Providers have agreed to allow them to use technology, developed by Phorm, to present adverts to their customers based on the nature of the websites they visit.
“Understandably, this has provoked considerable public concern. We have had detailed discussions :erm: with Phorm. They assure us that their system does not allow the retention of individual profiles of sites visited and adverts presented, and that they hold no personally identifiable information on web users. Indeed, Phorm assert that their system has been designed specifically to allow the appropriate targeting of adverts whilst rigorously protecting the privacy of web users. They clearly recognise the need to address the concerns raised by a number of individuals and organisations including the Open Rights Group. We welcome the efforts they are making to engage with sceptical technical experts and believe that it is only by allowing their technology to be subject to detailed scrutiny :o: by independent technical experts that they will be able to prove their assertions regarding privacy. The ICO strongly supports the use of technology in ways which enhance rather than intrude upon privacy, and plans to produce a report on “Privacy by Design� later this year.
“We understand that the technology is not yet in use and that BT intends to run a trial involving around 10,000 broadband users later this month. We have spoken to BT about this trial and they have made clear that unless customers positively opt in to the trial their web browsing will not be monitored in order to deliver adverts. BT has also stated that the system does not store personally identifiable information, URLs, IP addresses or retain browsing histories and that search information is deleted almost immediately, and is not retrievable.
“We will continue to maintain close contact with Phorm and BT throughout the trial. Clearly the trial should reveal whether this is a service that web users want, whether it is privacy friendly and that users are comfortable with the privacy safeguards put in place by Phorm.�


I've been to the dentist today so maybe I missed something (or arrived back on a different planet, my body full of anaesthetic) - since when was it the function of the ICO to listen to "they said", "they assert" and "they assure"?

How about "our customers want a choice" you morons.

I must remember that one should I end up in court - take the Judge and Jury out for dinner to explain my case to them. "We find you not guilty due to a lovely dinner and you having picked up the bar tab - oh and insufficient evidence or something."

OED 2008 : BTPhorm defence

Welcome to Britain - SSL to another country really is your very best friend (until it becomes illegal)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm afraid I'm rather more cyncial about Phorm than you, ciscokid. I don't think they're ignorant to our concerns; I believe they know exactly why we're worried, and they're utterly indifferent. As far as they're concerned we're just units to be utilized in the generation of profit. The only thing that will make them care is if the "units" look like they're going to "malfunction" and cause a drop in revenue (i.e. mass opt-out).


A mass opt-out eh? That sounds like a great plan. I just think that when it comes to it peeps will not be willing. Sadly, most people are just sheep with this kinda stuff. Although thats not the feeling I get from this place :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Great idea Portly_Giraffe but i have to agree with Mark777, while most of the people contributing here are tech aware and understand the technichal aspects of DPI, its my mum and the girl on the checkout at tesco who need to be made aware of the massive threat to their privacy in simple terms. If you mention Deep Packet Inspection most peoples eyes glaze over and interest is lost. It needs to be kept simple.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How about an IronKey? You get 12 months encrypted VPN subscription to a dedicated TOR node as well as a really nice memory stick (that self-destructs, apparently, if you get the password wrong 10 times in a row!)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Do you think Phorm would have any problem selling a system based on their patent to, say, the Chinese government?
Of course, they'll have promised to only use it to target advertising...

I'm firmly with Sir Tim: "It's mine - you can't have it."
What grounds have *you* to believe that they should?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Been thinking about this in light of the technical paper in a drunken haze :)

What would happen if we all altered our webwise cookie to have a uid of say 0 and set the cookie to be read only so the web browser couldn't overwrite it?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry to admit that I'm beginning to get that feeling myself. Fight all you like but in the end our representatives want this, our ISP's want this, commercial interests want this and the sheeple simply don't care one way or the other.

I suppose I will have to accept that my net connection is going up in price by the amount it costs to SSL to a box in a country that cares.

They say you get the Government (and, by extension, the country) you deserve.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't want to come across as a "I'm giving up on this" it's just the bulk of internet users really don't have a clue or really care.

I mean there are peeps out there still using the WWW without a firewall let alone firefox and the great add-ons that are available for it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I quite agree.

What worries me is when i'm in a queue in Tesco's and someone at the front can't find their Clubcard and thinks the world will fall in because they are loosing out.

When I get to the checkout and am asked if I have a Clubcard and reply "You mean a bit of Satan's plastic?", I'm looked at if i'm from another planet (I can understand that), but then asked if I want one!

If I ask why Tesco's just don't give everyone the 0.5% discount i'm told on the checkout (as if it's way beyond my comprehension) that it's much more complicated than that. If I ask why, people behind get all uppy.

I've not asked them if they realise that Tesco's know who they are and where they live and have a really good idea about how much they earn, how much disposable income they have, how many kids, their diet, and their IQ. They may even know when their wife's menstrual cycle starts or if alcoholism is a family problem.

That's without having Tesco's home and car insurance.

What are these bugg**s going to do with people's browsing habits, particularly if they feel they are loosing out on something? And they are not even getting a discount!

Keep pestering your MP! If your MP does not listen, write to the opposition parties.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yeah sure, we get that, but your average person using their Broadband computers must understand:
Inspection.
Lawful intercept.
diverting all your data.
data Mining.
eavesdropping.
censership.
interception,etc

simple everyday Broadband users language is one thing, pre-school playgroup is another and serves no real purpose in understanding this subject.

remember, i didnt say slap the whole thing at the top, mearly highlight the *DPI words so as to make it clear and stand out, then they can *it at the bottom if they want to read the more techy ABC if you like....

---------- Post added at 00:59 ---------- Previous post was at 00:48 ----------

how do you make sheeple care ?, by letting them know the facts as it effects them personally it would seem.

i like that sheeple ;) we should adopt it 3x2

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So VirginMedia plan to circumvent our web browser's security model of cookie management, so that VM can insert the webwise UID into every cookie stored on PC!!! To do this VM will be faking (the first) visit to every web site that I surf to, using the "gifted" equipment from Phorm? i.e. this DPI Layer 7 kit and the special web-site faking computers!

Someone wake me please, I must be having a nightmare:(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed. But we have to remember that most people have a very basic understanding of the internet and how it works.
While most peeps on here understand the technical issues, they are already aware of the threat to their privacy and are doing something about it.
Its the other 95% of the people that we need to wake up and show them whats happening to their privacy and get them writing to their MP, ISP, signing the petition etc.
My experience is that most people just switch off unless you keep it simple where computers/internet are concerned.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed only thing is some are simple minded and the PR these guys give out many will be suckered into the hell whole..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Things are not going well for Phorm at the moment.

With the BBC C4 and the experts saying there technology is illegal, Then I saw this on the investor site

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...PHRM.L&it%3Dle

Posted by fidbod
----------------------------------------
I don't know if anyone has read the regulatory news service today if not a brief update.

As of 7th February the following investors held substantial holdings.
Majedie investments PLC 4.26% - source Phorm Website
Valerie Boffy 3.27% - source Phorm Website

As of today
Majedie hold 3.9%
Valerie Boffy is no long a substantial shareholder i.e. her holding has fallen below 3%.

I don't know about you but when institutional shareholders and significant private investors start selling their investments, that is a big sell indicator for me!!

It is almost as bad as directors selling their investment.
----------------------------------------

Add to another week of slowly falling prices, I can enjoy my new hobby of watching a company slowly burn.

Enjoy a good night everybody.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yeah OK, so that page also needs the basic send it letter to your whoever at this address thing.

a sheeple frendly DPA Notice (and request perhaps),Dear MP,Dear MEP,Dear UK Data Comissioner,Dear EU Data Commisioner.

you can find most of the basic stuff already and it needs re-writing for the generic ISP/Phorm subject, so thats a job for you perhaps.

look at the old Banking charges form letters for the bulk, as well as what the good people here have posted so far. good luck.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've lost count of the number of people who I've visited and found their broadband connection totally unprotected. Both personally and professionally. Words like "firewall" mean nothing to them. They recognise words like "protection" and are therefore fooled by anything which claims to offer "protection", et al.

Consequently when they hear "What? What? WHAT?" coming from my general direction, ask what the problem is and I say "Where's your firewall/anti-virus" I get blank looks. Techie explanations won't work. Simple analogies and how it affects them get far better results. Hence the post analogy. It's simple and can be understood.

If people are genuinely interested in learning the more technical aspects then that's cool and is something they do with their IT department.

OK, not everyone's as cynical, jaundiced, bitter [continue with pejoratives if you like] as I am but I've got to say a whole lot of home users won't understand terms like data mining and interception.

So any effort to simplify things with analogies will help to counter the spin such as "improve your online experience".

"Time for bed" said Zebedee.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yeah i posted the regulatory news above earlyer here...

that would be the last trade i assume! £343,200 doesnt seem that much, perhaps she just needs to buy more shoes this weekend ;)
http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...&timeframe=480
15:51:23 1650p 1600p 1700p 20,800 £343,200 ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was looking around for more information on 'Man in the Middle' attacks (which is in effect what Phorm are doing with the cookies) and DPI equipment and came across this rather interesting article from last July;

http://arstechnica.com/articles/cult...neutrality.ars

It gives a good outline of what DPI equipment can do but also got me wondering what equipment VM use for traffic shaping, anyone know? Do they use the cheaper shallow packet inspection or what?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I believe VM use Ellacoya kit for DPI based "network management", I seem to remember reading an article on it on either ThinkBroadband or El Reg about 12-18 months ago.

Ellacoya is pretty much the market leader with regards to this type of equipment from what I can tell.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi

It's hard to say what software VM are using to packet sniff but in general terms it should only be used for monitoring network performance and faults that may arise from bandwidth leeches!

I only EVER use it for fault based issues and it's within our private network.



Thanks for that Alex. I was only speaking from my personal experience. I use Solarwinds and that has in-built packet sniffing software although we do have very clever program writers! ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good to see that some of the people on the iii site are finally waking up to the real issues. For a while a few of us were banging our heads against a brick wall but looks like the tide is turning ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would agree that most web users are likely to roll their eyes at techy or legal arguements regarding what Phorm intend to do but there are simplistic ways of making the point.

A lot of people, especially the younger amongst users value their privacy and would react positively if they were told that the system is designed to "look over their shoulders" and "spy" on what they do and then "profile" them and feed back against that profile adverts determined by analysis. Tell the average teenager that their parents (assuming same access group and rights) can see what advert profiles have been generated by their offspring by virtue of delivery and a major driving force behind technology is going to become extremely anti spying in any Phorm.

I have not posted on this issue for quite a while because the spin on words from Phorm and their PR people is repetitive and boring. The rubbish about no retention of data is inconsequential because what has been retained is an analysed profile from the data viewed. What they have is only of value when married up with their anonymous acronym but as the acronym and the user's IP can be married up by accident or intent then they have spied to obtain and retain a profile on a user. Indeed they may not have retention of the original data beyond the time taken for analysis but the product of that data is retained for the system to work.

Does anybody have PingPlotter traces saved from between the national outage on Dec 21st 2007 and the commencement of this thread. I had a lot of speed and surfing problems during that period and magically speed has increased back to very pleasing levels since this thread gained legs. I wish I had saved the pingplotter traces from that time because what drove me to use OpenDns, Treewalker, and Bind in a vain attempt to get reasonable DNS resolutions has long gone.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

when did this version get put up BTW, anyone know?
http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...ble/terms.html

that whole section wants throwing out an re-writing, whoever was responsable wants the sack......

theres no way they can enforce much of the little iv read so far, hell even a small error would wipe out the whole clause as invalid, im to tired and not in the mood right now to take it in and comment on it more than that.

---------- Post added at 02:49 ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 ----------

my god...
Virgin TV

1. We will not continue to provide you with television services if we find out that you do not have a valid television licence.
2. Nothing in this agreement entitles you to receive any Pay-Per-View or programmes on demand, although we may from time to time advertise Pay-Per-View or programmes on demand for you to buy. To buy a Pay-Per-View or programmes on demand you must follow the instructions given. When you buy a particular Pay-Per-View or programme on demand, you are only able to receive that Pay-Per-View or programme on demand. Under no circumstances will we be liable for any mistakes in our electronic programming guides.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That pay-per-view clause made me choke on my chicken pie. Have they never heard of the Trade Descriptions Act?

"What does the Trade Descriptions Act require?

Any descriptions of goods and services, given by a person acting in the course of a trade or business, should be accurate and not misleading."


Since you purchase the pay-per-view directly from the scheduler (at least you do on Sky I presume it is the same for Virgin) then clearly if the scheduler is wrong they are liable under the Trade Descriptions Act and no matter what they put in their terms to the contrary they cannot escape this liability.

Bunch of bloody muppets.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yeap, thats how you do it on VM too.

btw, the notice is still reasonably intact, they skip over or YOU bit nicely by implying its only payments that matter about Notices, and still no re-inclusion of 'electronic' Notice allowed as yet, so no popup Notices for Virgin Media to get Explicit consent.

totally implyed only 'ordinary post' is valid, not 'registered post',clever T&C writer ;)

hmm two working days for fax, not so sure about that one....

P Notices

Any notices we, Virgin Media Payments or you give to each other must be in writing and be delivered by hand, or sent by fax or ordinary post, to you at your home or to us or Virgin Media Payments at the address set out in your Welcome Pack.

Any notice period will start from the day on which the notice is delivered if it is sent by hand,

from two working days after the date it was posted, if sent by ordinary post, or from the date of successful transmission if it is sent by fax.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I do. It's like being in a stockade and while you are loading up and firing away there's a bunch of fat lazy *******s behind you drinking whiskey, smoking dope, plucking out belly button fluff asking you "what's your deal-io dude? "

These same people find out what the "deal-io" is later when they want to buy a house and find that no-one will give them a mortgage or insurance because they used the term "cancer" too frequently in their profile. When they finally feel the pinch they find they are a protest group of one and nobody cares.

Lets get this straight, ultimately I want to target my "Ferrari" ads to people who are "in the market" and can afford one. The downside of this is system is that I also don't want to offer anything at all to people who search <insert illness/non commercial proposition here>. That's the reality of targeted marketing.

If the majority population of the UK don't care that they are being wire-tapped and their Government or "media" say it's OK then why shouldn't I buy shares in Phorm? As things are, I might well make enough money to get out of this *****ing country and leave our "fat lazy *******s behind you drinking whiskey, smoking dope and plucking out belly button fluff" to their own devices - what else do they deserve? Certainly not me up at this time of night trying to defend them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

opinions, not mine.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

your current POV, i assume given your data on this site
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 139

is it that you dont spend any real time posting on message boards or by extension, much time online interacting, but perhaps you online game a lot?, and so cant see that interactive side?

you say you are trying to look at all sides of this whole interactive and inter-related picture, did you ask yourself the question, do i really know the whole picture or anything aproaching that?

why do you charactorise this thread and the comments in it as a 'Knee-jerk' reaction ?

are you making the assumption that noones ever thought about the implications of loosing freedoms in whatever form before this ISP/Phorm business aired ?

i realise for you,if infact you dont interact, spend much time online as yet, or dont understand nor care about the powerful tech involved, it might seem as a mear curiosity, almost nothing to worry about.

thats its power, this centralised core DPI kit has such possibilitys for the Bad in the wrong hands, and yet its virtually invisible, and werse, its can be remotely re-programed on the fly so you might never see the bad until its to late...

is it also to be assumed you dont as yet buy goods services or bank on the internet and so again, you dont see the danger involved there ?

never the less, you can see the finantial gain motive and probability that criminal gangs all over the web are looking forward to haveing a collective Phorm network to potentially tap into ,dont you?

i cant find the URL right now,found it...
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...er-crime-chart
"
UK rises to number two in cyber-crime chart

After the US

By Stewart Meagher: Friday, 04 April 2008, 1:38 PM
"

but its been reported yesterday that the UK has the worlds second largest criminal online activity after the No.1 US , so you can be sure if theres an ISP/Phorm 0day DPI loophole, it will be found and used.

are you trying to tell us your of the 'im alright jack' school of thought ?

that being the case , how long before your not alright if your libertys and privacy are striped away right under your nose.

as another side of this multi sided thing, id like to just point to this central Government databases URL that points out yet another potential abuse of a computerised system that was unintended and unautherised.

http://www.tjmcintyre.com/2008/02/go...cent-have.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK I have updated the article again, you can find it here: http://www.paladine.org.uk/phorm_paper.pdf

I have now completed the first draft of the sections pertaining to RIPA, Privacy and Electronic Communications (European Directive) Regulations 2003 and Computer Misuse Act 1990 (Scotland).

I will be looking at Trespass to Chattels later today and then covering other aspects of the issue.

As always, feedback welcomed. I think I fixed the words with Americanised "ise" (ize) but let me know if you find any I missed (other than in quotes obviously).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

quick thought , i think it needs a short laymans overview of what PAEC is ment to protect.

im pritty sure iv read but cant remember were, Phorm are using that 2a and especially 2B as their grounds to justify several things, so perhaps that needs more thought around that, not that iv read the section yet, i need coffe................

whats your Trespass to Chattels external reference alexander i cant find it?

and iv only ever read about that once many moons ago now, need to read up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Remember that this article is focusing on the 2006/2007 trials as opposed to the upcoming deployment of this technology. Since the trials were secret they have no defence under 2a or 2b of Privacy and Electronic Communications (European Directive) Regulations 2003.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ohh yeah , i forgot doh ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is no reference to Trespass to Chattels in the document yet as I have not yet written that part, but you can find info here:
http://search.opsi.gov.uk/search?q=c...phore&oe=UTF-8

---------- Post added at 07:40 ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 ----------

My basic argument of trespass to chattels will be based around the javascript injection in the trials. It can (and has been argued in the past) be deemed that running software on a computer without the consent of the owner is trespass to chattels under Torts Act (Interference with Goods).

---------- Post added at 08:08 ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 ----------

Trespass to Chattels is useful because under the UK version of the Computer Misuse Act it is very difficult to "prove" intent. However, because Interference with Goods is covered under tort law there is no requirement to show intent. The mere fact that they interfered with your private property without your consent should be a strong enough argument.

Obviously by inserting javascript (which is a program albeit a small program) they have forced your computer to run a 3rd party program without your permission and thus have interfered. Plaintiffs can seek remunerative relief for any damages incurred as a result of the trespass. Damages are not limited to the literalsense of damaging your goods, damages include the cost of any time you had to spend resolving the issue, psychological damages (stress etc.) and anything else which happened as a direct result of the trespass.

At least one victim of the trials is reported to have bought a new computer to try and fix the problem, this would be an applicable damage too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i remember now, The doctrine of trespass to chattels states that one may not use the property of another in such a way as to harm that property or interfere with the owners' use and enjoyment of it.

---------- Post added at 09:08 ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 ----------

you know, theres almost nothing on Torts online, its all in paper books costing an arm and leg ........

glad the case is useful, need more coffee.........

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah I have emailed Pinsent Masons to see if they can point me to any relevant UK case law based on similar arguments to the US case law you showed me re: E-Bay vs Bidders Edge.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

im not haveing any luck with Uk case law this morning, sorry about that..
i did find a funny potential for the original chattels though, ;)

"NB. It can be more expedient and cost-effective for the court rather than a receiver to realise certain chattels or cash."

i dont think you really could, but the implication being, you (such as the above guy that had to get a new computer) take this to court,win and get the judge to 'realise certain chattels' as your compensation award , that being the offending Phorm DPI kit ;) ,end everyones misery for the time it takes to replace it with a new one LOL.

got to get off now, BBL

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have a question for the next time PhormUKPRteam come online.

I would like a list of all your clients with regards to OIX. Which websites are going to implement your OIX platform?

I ask because I wish to create a blacklist (similar to your anti-Phishing blacklists) for my firewall to make sure I never visit any of those web sites. Once this blacklist is installed there is no need for you to profile me through Deep Packet Inspection using Layer 7 network technologies as it would be impossible for me to visit the web sites you are profiling me for.

I expect if I published this blacklist on the Internet lots of people would use it in their own firewalls for the same reason. It will be interesting to see how many of your advertising partners using the OIX platform will stay once they realise they are losing a significant amount of traffic due to my blacklist (which within 24 hours would go viral thanks to Digg, Slashdot and similar sites).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OMFG :shocked:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pi...il/084025.html

Information Commissioner Says Yes Indeedy
Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
> On 04/04/2008, Ian Batten <igb@batten.eu.org> wrote:
>> http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...ent_040408.pdf
>>> Much easier to divert data from one source to GCHQ!.. :-D

And we mustn't forget that the Home Office "view" was written by the head of the Covert Investigation Policy section ...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah I saw that yesterday.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Break out the tin foil hats... :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

lol, yeah, but i guess it explains the 'seek a letter of comfort ' OC the Head Of Covert Investigation Policy would give them that comfort ....

i still want to know who that QC is though.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks to everyone who contributed ideas for the "simple" website. I do intend to change its name to make it more acceptable to organisations such as the BBC, and will let you know once that's in place.

In the mean time, here are some specific changes:

popper – I agree about the importance of emphasising deep packet inspection. However, I also agree with mark777 and roadrunner69 that expressed as such it is too technical for ordinary users. So I have reworded the intro substantially.

However, at the end of the attributions I have added a prominent reference to the Wikipedia article, along with Richard Clayton’s recent paper.

I have made all these changes live at http://www.whyphormisbad.org and would welcome any further comments.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry I'm a bit late back to the party, Portly-Giraffe, but I've also been doing some thinking...here's what I wrote:



What is Phorm?

Phorm is a new element of the internet that is being added by your ISP, using equipment and software supplied by a company called Phorm.

What Does it Do?

It’s function is to read every word of every website that you visit, analyse it, and create a constantly-updated profile on you, your interests and your online habits. Your ISP will then send this profile to Phorm, who will use it to select advertisements which will then be shown to you on any participating website that you visit. As a sweetener, they have also added a phishing detector that tells you if you are about to visit a known phishing website. This function is already built into Internet Explorer and Firefox.

Is it safe?

Phorm claim that their technology cannot be used to identify you personally, but many technology experts believe that is not necessarily the case, and could potentially be open to both abuse by the company and attacks by hackers.

Is it Legal?

Phorm claim that is complies with the UK data protection act because it does not keep personally identifiable information on you. However, many technical and legal experts in the UK believe that it breaches the Regulation of Investgatory Powers Act 2000 (“RIPA”) because it intercepts your communications without the explicit consent of both you and the website you are visiting.

Can I Avoid it?

The ISPs will allow you opt-out of receiving the targeted advertising, but in it’s current form, all but one ISP (Talk Talk) will still intercept all your web traffic even if you opt-out. The only difference being that they won’t send you the adverts afterwards.

What If I want Nothing to Do with it?

At the moment, if your ISP is BT, Virgin Media or Talk Talk, the only way you can be sure that your traffic will not be intercepted is to move to an ISP that has stated that it will not use Phorm technology.

Has It started Yet?

As of 5th April 2008, BT have run 2 secret trials of this system without informing the customers that were used as guinea pigs; one in 2006 and another in 2007. Legal action by individuals over these has not been ruled out. All three ISPs who have signed an agreement with Phorm have stated that the system has not started yet on their networks, but BT plans to start a trial in the next few weeks, this time asking those customers selected first.


Is any of it any use to you? I realise it's rather simplistic, but I was aiming for the same writing style as the FAQs on Phorm's Webwise site (or at least, the way they were written the last time I visited before blocking the entire domain!)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A million thanks - that's excellent. I've included the lot and you can see it on the website at http://www.whyphormisbad.org

Everyone - keep the suggestions coming!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I doubt they'd tell you that! However, that doesn't mean that we can't figure it out for ourselves - I'm sure some cunning programmer could write a plug-in that detects al OIX ad-panes and adds the URL of the website to a centrally cached blacklist somewhere :) Once knowledge of that got out, no website would want to sell space to Phorm for fear of obscurity for ever more!
Or maybe a plug-in that blocks OIX-containing pages in real time? (I realise it wouldn't prevent the profiling, but if enough people used it, over time it would drive Phorm out of business as the advertisers realised what was happening)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Portly,

Really good site you have there, clear and informative to those net users who aren't as geeky as some of us might be.

and the last lucevans post is well written too :)

As far as potential alternatives for the name of the site (that the BBC might like) how about these:

Phorm Factor

InPhormationDesk (or inPhormationstation)

Keep up the great work folks :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi 3x2

My statement is fair to say a very broad sweeping one but sadly the fact is most internet users are lemmings with it's use.

If you recall from a previous message I also stated that "I don't get that feeling from this place" in reference to peeps on here being in the know and caring. Thats why we all post here right??

Just recently I repaired a home pc which had numerous problems with spyware/viruses and the guy just didn't know what to do. I know of a lot of friends, family and acquaintances who are or have been in the same boat.

I feel it's our own responsibility to find out. Buy books, magazines indeed search forums and you'll find a treasure trove of positive advice.

I know that i've learnt a heck of a lot from this forum and because I CARE I signed up too.

Anyway, rant over ;)

Awra best

Andy :)


I just checked out your website Portly. Very good layout and informative. I'll be sure to pass it on to people. Cheers

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

...And because it's the weekend, the three "illegal" articles about Phorm will now be up on the BBC Tech News site for a whole 48 hours (they don't appear to edit after 5pm on a Friday) :hyper:

---------- Post added at 12:18 ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 ----------

You're very welcome. I've sent the URL to all my family and friends. Keep up the good work!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hia Portly, excellent website. In your footer where you say "Write to your MP - Write to your MEP" you could make it a clickable link to http://www.writetothem.com

Your site could also benifit from a favicon.ico such as: [img]Download Failed (1)[/img] you can download the .ico from http://www.favicon.cc/?action=icon&file_id=7437

Ali.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Found an interesting article a few years old about search engines and privacy.
One point that struck me as relevant was this:

"Many users do not understand why leakage of information not containing any
personal data such as email addresses or real names is considered
a threat by privacy concerned users. However the tiny bits of information
which get dropped every now and then form a trail which can be used
to trace users, i.e. the user is not anonymous any more but pseudonymous.
Being pseudonymous means that it is not known who the user really is, but it
is known that it is her. The problem is that giving personal data such as
an email address or a name only one time will make all past and future
pseudonymous actions personal actions which can be linked to the user's real
identity."

http://www.tentacle.franken.de/paper...ch-privacy.txt

Just in case that might be any use to the more talented activists here.
:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nice idea and I am going to add it to ISPr to help those who visit our forums to understand the phorm and how to avoid it..