Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36067899)

The SNP wanted independence before Brexit existed.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36067896)

I don't see any hypocrisy here.

Again you are trotting out the same old, tired unionist lines. No currency, Spain would veto, all of these were part of Project Fear 2014 yet still independence climbs in polls.

Despite "all these benefits" you haven't yet named one in this thread. Not a single benefit of being in the UK.

It's not "my precious SNP" - I'm simply offering observations on Scottish politics. I've said before the serial incompetence of the unionist parties results in weak opposition and is bad for political discourse. I know on CF not many view opposing views as healthy but there was a time that was quite normal in politics.

As Labour lurch to a new leader - so many since the SNP took power I'd struggle to name them all. The Conservatives also have a new leader in Scotland I can't see either making inroads in May despite any scandal that could engulf the SNP.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36067901)

Before you get too relaxed with all this nonsense ...

The wise heads in the SNP haven’t actually changed their minds about any of this. They were in no doubt they needed a Section 30 Order for 2014 and they still think that. What has changed is that a number of positions in the party’s NEC now occupied by hardliners. Sturgeon wants to keep her job so pragmatism has forced her to order the pompous Mike Russell to write up the “strategy” we are now debating. Except it isn’t a strategy, it’s a plan B that only exists because Sturgeon can no longer afford to look like the nationalist leader who doesn’t want a referendum.

What’s worse is that thanks to Nippy being rather more to Scottish tastes than Boris when it comes to media management in a crisis, the SNP looks like it might actually have a working majority again this year, if not by itself then with the continuing assistance of those useful idiots who like to call themselves the Scottish Green Party; furthermore, Boris has gone further than any UK politician to date in spelling out that he means to stick by “once in a generation”, and has defined “generation” in truly Biblical terms (40 years).

So really, those in the SNP who think winning a referendum is more important than simply holding one are beginning to lose the argument that it is better to wait until the polling is consistently high enough, consistently long enough, for victory to be more or less certain. The party ultras, who properly drank the kool-aid in 2014 and genuinely think Scotland is on the brink of being thoroughly wrecked by Toreeez, having its NHS sold off, Trident missiles farting plutonium all over the central belt and whatever, are starting to get the upper hand.

It’s also worth pointing out that the SNP, in proposing the UK government can do only one of three things in the face of its proposed Referendum Bill, has actually failed to list the fourth option: the one thing the UK government is most likely to do, and which the SNP desperately hopes it won’t do, which is to accept the Scottish Parliament is perfectly entitled to poll the Scottish electorate for its opinion on any issue it likes, but that this doesn’t afford the outcome the same status as the 2014 referendum which was enabled by Act of Parliament and underpinned by a document signed by the PM, FM and their deputies.

HMG may deny a section 30 order, choose not to challenge any subsequent referendum act in the courts, decline to engage with the ensuing campaign (except perhaps for taking the opportunity to point out to the electorate that this is a glorified exercise in opinion polling which they are not obliged to participate in) and then refuse to discuss the outcome with Scottish Ministers.

What then?

Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36067889)

Agreed, once in a generation wasn't it....:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36067904)

It's not my job to justify why I think Scotland should stay aligned with England, far too many to list - you want to part ways, tell me what benefits you get with leaving, because I see none, none whatsoever, so fess up or simply just shut up.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36067907)

Comedy gold Mick. Taking back control, sovereignty, take your pick.

Is this joining US politics as a subject you have "no interest" in yet post strong opinions on a regular basis?

It's not for me to sell it to the English members of Cable Forum, it's for the SNP to sell it to Scotland. A job they seem particularly good at of date despite so called "scandal".

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36067908)

Scanned through the above - still no benefit of leaving offered. :dozey:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36067905)

I suspect the UK Government will grant a further referendum if the SNP win the election clearly, or at least define clear terms under which a referendum could take place.

However, if there's an unofficial poll it will simply drag on further constitutional turmoil. The Scottish electorate will continue to return SNP governments in Scotland and the overwhelming number of MPs to Westminster (50+). The situation will not be sustainable long term - even worse if the UK were to return a hung Parliament.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36067910)

I desperately hope they just ignore them, let them have their own non-binding referendum if they want , every year. I would pass a Bill that decreed a proper referendum to be undertaken any year from 2056, in law, and let them stew in their own piss until then.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36067909)

In your opinion. However as I've pointed out many times the English lecturing the Scottish on what is good for them plays into SNP hands.

I've even generously offered to pay for Old Boy to come and campaign in May. :D

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36067913)

And if you think you got a gotcha on me, because I voted to leave the EU, think again - you do know what the difference is, because last time I looked, EU wasn't a country, to pull oneself away from. Do try harder dear. :dunce:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36067914)

If you can't see the rank hypocrisy then there's little point in debating you on it. :dunce:

Decicion making can be taken at a range of levels. Local, national or supranational. The concepts of control remain the same.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36067916)

And what exactly do you want to take control of, that you don't control now or indeed make decisions on?

Because my goodness, I can only think of....wait for it.... ching ching..

The Weather?

:Sun: :Sun: :Sun: :Sun:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36067911)

It's good to know the English would rather see Scottish political discourse stuck for 40 years rather than focusing on schools, the economy, health and moving forward inside or outside the UK.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36067919)

I think you’ll find it is the SNP that has sacrificed, education, NHS, Drug use, COVID and just about everything else on the alter of independence, not the English.

They had their shot. They can try again in 2056.