Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Good post, well said...:clap::clap:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

'sunlit uplands' . . where was that phrase first used, and was it by the remain or leave camp?

I suspect it was the remain camp, referring to some kind of Utopian dream that quite obviously wouldn't happen, in order to be then thrown into future arguments that Brexit didn't/isn't working ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nope. It was Brexit supporting Andrea Leadsom in 2016 after the referendum.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...dership-speech

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'll take your word for it, typical Andrea Leadsom, ideas above station I guess :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

tbf, she wasn’t the only Leadership contender who was "economical with the actualite"…

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rules-VAT.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not sure what’s economical about any of that? As has been common throughout this discussion there’s a (possibly quite wilful) refusal to acknowledge the difference between a referendum campaign in which both sides present what they see as the risks and opportunities inherent in voting for or against their proposition, and an election in which politicians are elected on manifesto commitments to enact specific policies.

The Leave campaign observed that Brexit would enable greater freedom in VAT policy. That is a correct statement. It is a further benefit of Brexit that come the next election, if the sitting government has not used that freedom, it can reasonably be held accountable for it at the ballot box.

Boris et al have now have the power to lessen the impact of fuel bills by acting on VAT. Come the next election if they have not done so and you think they should have, you know what to do. :shrug:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There’s a huge difference between "could be" and (as was stated in "Britain's energy bills will be slashed by £2 billion a year") "will be" - the first is a possibility, the second is a promise (as stated in the Sun).

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/121870...s-back-brexit/

"Will be", not "can be"…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

On either side, I would add. Just for completeness, of course.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Link?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The Sun … seriously?

You’re still missing the point though. Referendums are not elections. They are not fought on manifestos. They are fought on arguments about possibilities. I prefer to assume the British electorate is intelligent enough to understand this difference.

The argument that ministers *can* scrap VAT on fuel is not a lie. It’s absolutely correct. They can do that. Anyone who thought that was a good reason to vote Leave was not deceived.

*If* Boris and Gove made firm commitments to use those powers during the referendum campaign then, for starters, nobody can complain that they were not used between 2016 and 2020 as they weren’t in positions where they could make good on such a commitment. Boris has, however, now been both PM, and working with a manifesto he had influence over, since 2020 (plus a couple of weeks of 2019). If we get to the next election and they haven’t made good on their commitments then those are factors that voters may take into account.

There are in fact a whole lot of policy areas where minsters can no longer just blame Brussels. The next general election has the potential to be the most broad ranging debate on the running of Britain in a generation. That is a good thing.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

When all this stuff was spouted about energy bills, Covid hadn't arrived and the gas shortages weren't in the frame.

HS2 was a very large project too, but circumstances after it's conception have drastically altered its current direction (no pun intended)

There was also that chap that said "Peace for our time" wasn't there?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Apparently there's going to be an inquiry into our trade deal with Australia now, things like hormone fed beef and general animal welfare being the chief concerns, weren't we promised our standards wouldn't drop and if anything would be higher

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If I had to vote for Brexit again tomorrow, I still would vote leave, as would many remainers.


What hasn't helps is Covid as this destroyed many best laid plans.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Or covid has helped avoid proper scrutiny of what's been happening, got a feeling some people are going to be held accountable for the things they've said in the coming year

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You assume that everyone who voted did so based on politically ideology when the opposite is true. Most were promised a better future with no downside when all they have is a broken country run by crooks.

As time goes on and the fog of Covid clears, it will be these people, the ones who realise that they have been conned, that will be the ones that really suffer. The economic downside will manifest in reduced public services, lower quality food & environment standards, the list goes on.

The structural damage to the country in terms of societal divisions, generational betrayal, international reputation, empowering of latent racist & xenophobic views, etc. is significant and lasting.

A truely Pyrrhic victory.

Yet again, you ignore the reality of what is happening now and focus on the illusory sunlit uploads. If all you can point to (yet again) is "opportunity", then you really did take the blue pill.

---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:26 ----------

I do not remember the Leave campaign clearly & publicly presenting the inherent risks on leaving the EU