Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We appear to have moved from desperation to delusional. No it meant hard border full stop. As I said Ireland may have had to erect the border but potential global trading partners would have held the U.K. wholly accountable.

Let’s not forget, Ireland would have had the EU in its corner

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He's right I'm afraid, Seph, there is a distinct odor of desperation in the air.

It is WTO membership that would require a hard border. If the UK had ventured down the route of no deal then all its trade globally would have tariffs which would wreck its economy as companies fled the UK. (As it is, it is just the slowly deflating tyre effect that the country is enjoying.) Ireland would have counted the US and the EU nations on its side. Who would have supported the UK?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Parallels can be drawn between may/Boris in Brexit and trump/Biden Afghanistan

Riddle me this? as Biden could have overruled Trumps Afghan antics he didn’t

Boris could of quite easily taken out on no deal, he frequently stated that no deal was better than a bad deal, yet here we are with a bad deal. So, why didn’t he ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Had we gone no deal who else’s fault could it have been???

As a Brexiteer you get funnier by the second, first of all it doesn’t matter if we upset the EU now it doesn’t matter if we upset the EU & the US

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think you'll find many Brexiters willing to blame Theresa May but they will be evasive as a Raab when this question is put to them. I would say it is best discussed over a beer but that's a bit hard these days. https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/wethe...rtage-24883987

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’m still waiting for answer to the question I asked regarding why we haven’t taken the EU to court as some believe they’re breaking international law….

Re the beer running out ? Oh well never mind, just a shame all of his pubs haven’t caught fire. It’s alright though the staff that would be out of jobs could just retrain as hgv drivers

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’ll accept the above being possible in a far of crayola based reality

Why didn’t Boris take us out on no deal? He had the opportunity

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I thought you weren’t evasive ?

I’d genuinely like to understand why you think he didn’t do it ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I see

Therefore, as we continue meandering down this never ending discussion of politics Can we safely say you won’t be blaming May anymore as per your earlier post? Quite odd really, May has more balls than Boris, at least she was prepared to do what she believed in. Unless of course Boris didn’t believe in no deal all along ???

I’ll bid you good night and say thank you for a pleasant discussion, no doubt the shenanigans will continue tomorrow

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Oh Christ I hope not . . .

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are right to say that WTO membership requires a hard border, but Seph is right when he says that this could be on paper only. The EU was given options on how to regulate goods going in and out through the use of technology, but the EU was not playing ball.

Boris accepted a bad deal rather than a no deal because firstly it got Brexit done without too much more aggro, but he also decided that any problems arising could be dealt with after the event, when we would be in a position of strength.

This is only just starting to play out, but I can see him making the argument in the not too distant future that we will give the EU notice of termination, and he will explain that the existing deal was not working. Without the nonsense of having a hung parliament and with the advantage of having left the EU, plus the prospect of this unfolding chaos of EU malice under this bad deal, he will get more of the public on side.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sadly I don't believe that technology exists yet so the border would be more than a paper one. What is your source for
Somehow I don't believe you. You wouldn't want to be anywhere else on a cold September's day. :angel:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

From the BBC report the stuff that they are running out could hardly be called beer. (e.g. Coors).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Only if they run out of Stella could it be called serious. :beer: :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Agreed - I think we may have finally found a Brexit benefit after all. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Hang on, it wasn't a hung parliament when Boris was elected. He could of quite easily taken us out on no deal. So the question i asked last night to Sephi, I'll ask to you. Why did Boris not take us out on no deal?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm afraid that some are so beholden to the hung Parliament myth that they overlook the fact that Boris could have taken us out without a deal. In the rest of the negotiations, they lean heavily into the "EU wouldn't allow us" line as a get-out clause but that's simply not possible with this question!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Tis a wonder with that we possess so many armchair politicians on CF who are able to raise complex political arguments but seem to fall short at providing an answer to two very simple questions.

A wonder indeed.......

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Could Boris just have picked up the phone, rang that Barnier chap and said

"Right I've had enough, no more games, I'm buggering off, bye" ?

or would it have had to be agreed by everyone who had a say in it . . including those who were totally against a no deal :shrug:

Plenty of people were willing to scupper any kind of deal using delaying tactics.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nope, Boris had the ability & the numbers when the Tories took their landslide election victory to take us out on no deal.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's somewhat perplexing that those professing a need for greater sovereignty don't understand the difference between a hung Parliament and a Parliament with an 80-seat majority.

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------

i think this thoughtful article neatly summarises where the country is at on Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...elves-empty-eu

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Was that an 80 seat majority for Tory rule, or an 80 seat majority for 'no deal'?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Mon dieu... the desperation.....

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

ahh, another that doesn't understand . . . ever considered lorry driving?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We elect parties not 'no deals' in the UK.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I couldn’t take the pay cut ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No I think he's right. What does an '80 seat majority' mean . . ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And good afternoon to you too

Any withdrawal agreement had to contain provisions to protect the peace in Northern Ireland that is a simple fact.

Boris knew what no deal meant, for all his gibberish & lunacy he’s not stupid.

Shenanigans are fun ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Shenanigans are better fun than sitting staring out of the window wondering if it will start to rain when/if I get the lawn mower out :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Get a robotic lawnmower ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Which bit would you like clarification on?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Wahey !!!!!!

How else could a hard border have been prevented ? The much vaunted technological route was quickly dismissed as the technology is approx five years away.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Exactly. I'm still waiting for Old Boy to post a link to this working technology he keeps on citing. Alas, he's thrown his 10p's worth in and then fled more quickly than a Yodel courier at Christmas. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think the amount of 'Shenanigans' (;)) by remain orientated people in the previous few years would have shown him it wasn't a route that would be cleared anytime soon :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That makes no sense. Article 50 had been triggered so the countdown to no deal was ticking.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just trying to fit in Andrew, lots of irrelevant waffle about something that happened ages ago, and some of us have already put behind us ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So Boris isn't capable of getting his own party into line? Well, why no leadership contest to replace him ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Maybe whoever wants to take the lead in the future knows that doing so now would buy them a poison chalice.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why? Surely they will be playing a leading role in delivering us to the sunny uplands.

Unshackled from the burdens of Johnson's immigration policy, they will be able to devise an immigration policy that works for the country and helps fill Wetherspoons with lagers and supermarkets with great British produce.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

AKA when two organisations try to reach an economic agreement the org with the biggest economic clout generally gets to dictate the terms.

Still, I'm sure our newly agreed or soon to be agreed trade deal with the mighty economy that is New Zealand will make significant inroads into any issues we may face. Long way for the lorry drivers mind you.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

On the contrary - dictation only occurs when there is a gross imbalance of power or influence. At all other times there is negotiation, and give and take, and in any situation as complex as this one, size isn’t everything. The significance of individual parts of the deal, even the relatively small ones, can come to dominate for all sorts of reasons.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Which in this case due to economic 'power' between the EU & the UK there is. There has been a negotiation, the EU let us have some bits, but on the bits they really wanted i would hazard a guess they got their way. Just IMHO

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And put the gardener out of a job:shocked:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There's always an HGV to be driven.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A food order arrived in a big box today (the missus decided to pamper herself). Picked and packed in France last evening. Here with us this afternoon.

Brexit problems?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There should not be any at this stage. We're currently treating EU imports exactly the same as we did when we were an EU member state, so we are not inspecting them.

The new Brexit rules and inspections will commence from 1st October. You could compare and contrast by ordering a similar box in October and report back.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/webinars...-great-britain

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Boris may have won the election with a stunning majority, but there was still nervousness in the party about leaving without a deal. It was also clear that a lot of people outside of Parliament wanted a deal. So my guess is he took the easier option of signing up to a deal so we could get out when he said we would, rather than delay leaving in order to make the necessary preparations.

I am sure it was Boris himself who said the deal was not great, but it would be easier to amend or ditch it once Brexit had been achieved. And the way the EU nonsense is playing out, I think he will be able to make the argument that a no deal is better than a bad deal, with the evidence laid out for all to see.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Historical revisionism at it’s finest here, OB. Top drawer stuff.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

This is another fallacy. If a hard border was put in place, it would simply mean that the importing and exporting of goods could not take place. There is no reason why there shouldn’t be free movement of people, though.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How ironic.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don’t know where you get that from. The problem isn’t related to any current inability for such technology to work. The main difficulty is that both jurisdictions have systems that do not talk to each other. How much easier would it be if for example, if you could raise an export health certificate in Northern Ireland or from other parts of the UK and to transmit this seamlessly across to the EU system? It’s just another IT project, not some pipe dream that cannot be implemented due to a lack of existing capability.

It would require an application programming interface, similar to what has already been put in place for New Zealand lamb exports. Defra claims that such a system could be up and running within ten weeks.

You guys are throwing everything negative at this to try to prove that Brexit won’t work, and you add to that your group ridicule and baiting to try to silence those with an alternative viewpoint. Typical left-wing tactics, always used when losing an argument. Why can some of you not engage in intelligent discussion rather than all this schoolboy idiocy?

I would just like to remind you that we are out of the EU and there will be no turning back. Now we have to look at the best ways of making this work, like it or not. It’s what we as a country voted for, after all.

---------- Post added at 20:32 ---------- Previous post was at 20:25 ----------

There are still remainers in the Conservative Party who would have voted against a no deal.

And besides which, you had all these opponents lining up to suggest that the country didn’t vote for a no deal - and the last thing Boris would have wanted was a legitimate charge that he had been undemocratic.

No, this deal either has to be made to work in a sensible manner, or he will have to prove to thinking people that the deal was a bad one and should be ditched.

---------- Post added at 20:36 ---------- Previous post was at 20:32 ----------

This appears to be a complete failure to understand that countries enter into trade deals for mutual benefit. It is not a Goliath and David contest. David can simply decide not to agree and walk away. No stones thrown.

---------- Post added at 20:38 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

I think your memory leaves things to be desired, jfman. Champagne problems?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Agreed. Citing willful optimism as your source doesn't cut it for me.

As a reminder, Johnson did not say that the deal was not great. He said it was “a good deal for the whole of Europe”.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...nouncement-evg

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

According to many Leave advocates, we would still be in the Single Market. Didn't stop Johnson leading us out of it so in your book that's undemocratic.



---------- Post added at 21:07 ---------- Previous post was at 21:02 ----------

Now, now, don't be so harsh on Old Boy. :D

Joking aside, I think Johnson cleverly called it a "fantastic moment".

But Johnson's speech does show jfman's assertion of revisionism to be a valid one.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My memory serves me perfectly well. It’s a fine Belgian beer this evening.

If you genuinely believe that, as opposed to just being contrary, I’d seriously consider a man of your age speaks to your GP.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes, but we were where we were. And given where we were, it was the best deal that could be achieved. You remember very well, I am sure, that he was very critical of the May deal, which gave too much away. But starting again from scratch was not an option.

---------- Post added at 08:01 ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 ----------

More old ground. I thought we had established way back that if we remained in the single market, we would not be leaving Europe. This is a point that even many politicians didn't grasp at the beginning of the process.

Had anyone said to me that we would be staying in the Single Market, I would have asked why we were trying to 'leave' at all, because this would have been disadvantageous to us without reaping the benefits of Brexit.

---------- Post added at 08:03 ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 ----------

I was just bigging you up as a man of taste when I mentioned the champagne, but now you've ruined that image. :D

---------- Post added at 08:05 ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 ----------

Between NI and the Republic, jfman. You know, like what happens now.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You seem to have forgotten my point! My point was that you believed Johnson said the deal was a bad one at the time. I pointed out that he had not said this.
You just needed to agree that you misremembered. Your comments above are entirely irrelevant to the point I raised.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well done, you've managed to read an article I've read too. what you fail to mention is the time period to design and agree the specification of the API which is potentially two years.

From the same article you also conveniently neglect to mention the other two services that are required for this to work. one being the surveillance system for automated customs checks, which does not exist and would be years away from implementation, this is a key system which would be required at the launch of any API integration.

Secondly you forget to mention the automated tax reimbursement system that to a lesser degree is also required, and guess what that doesn't exist either.

Would you like to post that article link, or shall i? Or, would you like to pipe down on a subject you have absolutely no knowledge of whatsoever ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If we all did that, there would be about 6 posts in this thread :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I know Andrew. Wilful negitivism is much more your style.

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 ----------

If I can remind you, what you said was that the technology was five years away, and that is what I was referring to.

It's not five years away in terms of technology - we could do it now. I agree that the two sides would have to agree on the specification, etc, and it will certainly take a couple of years, particularly when you take into account that the EU moves at a snail's pace.

We put forward these ideas well before any deal was agreed, and the EU's refusal to consider the technology solution is why it could not be implemented yet. But the solution is there if indeed a solution is wanted.

As for surveillance systems, there are other ways to accomplish all this with agreed methods of packaging, labelling and security. If the will is there, these problems can be resolved. Insulting me does not prove your argument. On the contrary, it shows that you are on shaky ground and wouldn't welcome a reply.

All par for the course in this place, I suppose. Shame.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

IMHO, threads where posters link to their sources result in more stimulating debates and fewer unnecessary and cantankerous arguments.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No, we, can't

The monitoring and surveillance technology required to monitor the automated customs routines via the as of yet unspecified & uncreated API does not exist and will not exist for five years. These systems must be automated and implemented at the same time as the API.

The only technology that does not have to go in at the same time is the automated rebate service.

Having spent some time in my past roles designing architecture & services for government IT projects, specifically in my case the home office. I can tell you that the pace set by the EU will be Usain Bolt esque compared to UK.


A technological solution is the answer but is not deliverable at the moment.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Some useful insights there which I hope are not forgotten.
:clap::clap::clap:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Do you have a link for that opinion? :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

IMHO on this occasion so can be challenged and ripped apart at will. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A percentage of his Brexit posts do you're right, However, a percentage of them are so hysterically funny or misguided that he almost comes across as a character from 'the late night mash'

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Whilst it's true that Old Boy has been rather forgetful of late on this thread (qv Boris's comments on the Brexit deal and the forgotten technological issues that MrMistoffess highlighted) and I'm sure he appreciates your neighbourly concern, I'm really not the right person to advise whether he sees his GP or not.

People's opinions tend to come up for for criticism a lot when they've been built largely upon incorrect information. No one's perfect and I've rightly been called out for this too but that's why his recent postings here have met with the reception they have. And some posts do have a Comical Ali feel to them, which I'm sure he would be the first to acknowledge. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The sentence in question is
He's saying that solutions to the Brexit border problem in Ireland need to be practical and can't be at the expense of Ireland's position in the Single Market. So basically reiterating his country's red line.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Surely that's his country's perfidious red line ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Who is he again:shrug:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My bad. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just been told that there's over 70 000 excess pigs in the country due to the abattoirs and meat processing plants being so short of staffed.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Most of them will be in the Bigg Market on a Friday night i guess

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

People were sold a pig-in-a-poke. I'd take it up with Redwood if I were you, maybe ask for a refund.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Poor blighters, they'll wish they were at the abattoirs come Saturday morning

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Clearly, you believe that you know better than the majority of the British public, who want Brexit to be a success.

You really need to get over yourself. Time will prove me right and you wrong. In the end, the evidence will be undeniable.

Once again, you are insulting me because you don’t actually like being challenged on your negative remainer views.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You need to do some more research before criticising other people’s posts, Andrew. The main difference between Boris Johnson’s deal and Theresa May’s was that he abolished the backstop. And this is what he said of the Theresa May deal:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/ar...ys-brexit-deal

He proceeded because it was the only way of getting Brexit done by the end of the year. I have not misremembered. Look at his tweet in that link.

‘I have been and remain intensely critical of the deal. But we have a choice to make now, and that means choosing between options that actually exist. I have come to the sad conclusion that neither this government nor this parliament is willing to leave with no deal.’

And I have not forgotten the technical issues either. We can overcome this problem, but the will needs to be there on the EU side. In the meantime, we could have a straight forward and secure system of packaging and labelling which would overcome the questions relating to the transitional period.

Nah, you are just in denial that we can ever make a success of Brexit. We will overcome these initial problems, one way or another, and then you will see all your predictions about Brexit come undone.

The more nonsense you spout now, the more it will all come back and haunt you in due course.

That’s OK. I can wait.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's all very interesting but 100% irrelevant. You constructed an entire argument around your misplaced belief that Johnson had criticised his own Brexit deal whereas he criticised May's. Seph acknowledged that Johnson had not criticised his own deal at the time as well and I even provided a link to the Br'Express article reporting his announcement of the deal.

The transitional period is over Old Boy. We left the Single Market and from 1st October we will be inspecting EU imports.

What technical issues does your suggestion of labelling provide, and what labelling do you mean given that goods are labelled and now require extensive documentation when being exported to the EU?

---------- Post added at 20:36 ---------- Previous post was at 20:31 ----------

It was originally gritches and gremlins in the early days and weeks. Now it's become months and even years! When will it become decades and centuries?
You seem to be a tad unhappy about the Irish situation though, and a tad idealistic in expecting a country backed by the large EU bloc to give in to the UK.

Re: Britain outside the EU