Re: Brexit
 

I don't think Brexiteers should be allowed to get rid of Theresa May.

They had a vote on the 11th July 2016 and they shouldn't be allowed to change their minds.

Re: Brexit
 

Very good point Hugh. She's doing an excellent job of not delivering what the majority (including herself) didn't vote for. The Brexiteers just crumble under her gaze, who wouldn't ;)

Re: Brexit
 

l agree with Hugh's point that the Brexiteers should not be allowed to get rid of Theresa May but there is a fair chance that they will.

Re: Brexit
 

And replace her with someone more right wing and further away from the electorate? They are bonkers so guess you're right !

Re: Brexit
 

[QUOTE=Dave42;35967731]Wrong again.

Not celebrating, merely keeping Ianch99 updated.

25,000

Re: Brexit
 

Now think of someone who is a great polarising figure in this country and in his own party and you won't go far wrong.

Re: Brexit
 

Plus she is also good at dancing ... err .. hang on ..

Re: Brexit
 

Both protests and voting are part of democracy, without a doubt.

However, we have to be clear that protest should never be allowed to overturn the will of the electorate as determined in a vote, be it an election or a referendum.

If the reverse was the case, Arthur Scargill would have been PM in the1970s.

Re: Brexit
 

Saturday 20th October .
Peoples Vote Rally 700,000
Nigel Farages 'Save Brexit' rally 1,200

Re: Brexit
 

The true face of UKIP:

Never seen so many UKIP members attend a meeting in Strasbourg before...the subject? ....Members entitlements after Brexit!!!

(sorry about the image size :( )

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2018/10/10.jpg

Re: Brexit
 

The electorate is not allowed to change its mind. But Brexiiters like BoJo and David Davis who signed off and then reneged on the Irish backstop agreement are.
One rule for the elite, another rule for the man in the street.

Re: Brexit
 

Well, no. You are saying, surely, that we should have a vote on the method of leaving, presumably because you would say that people didn't appreciate the complexity of the process.

I am saying that people were asked whether we should remain or leave, and the people voted to leave. They were not concerned with how we would leave, just that we should leave. I think most of us assumed that bit would be handled by the politicians.

If you voted for Corbyn because he wanted to nationalise the railways, would you then go on to expect that the public would have a say on how the railways would be nationalised? Whether the private sector would be allowed to bid against the public sector, whether the whole industry should go into public hands, whether current standards should be maintained, etc? Of course not. You would have voted for nationalisation and it would be up to the Government how it implemented it.

Given the way Brexit was proposed, surely you cannot believe that those who voted out wanted a half way house, any more than the remainers did. They voted out, which means out of the EU, out of the single market and out of the customs union.

Interesting that Corbyn has already conceded that he would stay in the customs union, contrary to what people voted for, and that he appears not to understand that this would mean we could not forge our own trade deals, which the people did vote for.

---------- Post added at 08:56 ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 ----------

Not all leavers are fans of Nigel, old bean.

Re: Brexit
 

Which l have stated unequivocally but that does not mean people should keep quiet on Brexit even though some might want people to..

Re: Brexit
 

People who voted for Brexit: 17.4 Million. :rolleyes:

Come back when you can Trump that.

Normal people who don’t abuse Democracy, don’t need to attend en masse, they attend the ballot box instead and that is what they did, twice, in 2016 and 2017.

Re: Brexit
 

Well, maybe some of you who are criticising Theresa May for doing her best in the public interest should think on.

Re: Brexit
 

Surely in the spirit of the no deal they're advocating UKIP can suggest UK MEPs forgo their benefits? After all part of the deal is how the UK winds down it's obligations one of which is the pensions and entitlements of it's former members.

Re: Brexit
 

Interesting that the EU are now offering a Customs Union, rather than the Customs Union. Enough for the Brexiteers to save face, and keep TMs promise of not being in the Customs Union ? :D.

Re: Brexit
 

Sorry, must have missed that, Den!

---------- Post added at 09:03 ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 ----------

When is a customs union not a customs union? :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

Then again nothing, that is irrelevant and one sided BS, because they didn’t vote Remain either which you disingenuously missed out.

Cannot bring in to argument people ineligible or couldn’t be arsed to vote.

Re: Brexit
 

[QUOTE=ianch99;35967754]The true face of UKIP:

Never seen so many UKIP members attend a meeting in Strasbourg before...the subject? ....Members entitlements after Brexit!!!

(sorry about the image size :( )



What's up is it bigger than your pension?

Re: Brexit
 

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Re: Brexit
 

When it's part of a Brino deal. ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Way back in February, I posted;

Anyone want tonights lottery numbers?

Re: Brexit
 

[QUOTE=papa smurf;35967775]Your point?

Re: Brexit
 

Robert Peston
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Verified account

@Peston
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16 hours ago


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A shocked cabinet was today told no-deal Brexit may force government to own or operate lorry ferries, because freight through Dover and Channel Tunnel could fall 85% and we’d run out of vital goods, food and medicine

Re: Brexit
 

Wonderful - what's this now - project fear, version 2.5... ?

Version 3.0 expected soon - with more dramatic updates to follow in 3.1, 3.2... :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

project FACT

Re: Brexit
 

It's BULLSHIT!!!

Stop being so bloody gullible in believing first hand every bit of negative crap because it suits your negative Anti-Brexit agenda.

It's like we never managed to live prior to ever joining this corrupted block back in the 70's.

Re: Brexit
 

It's not the 1970s anymore and even when it was they didn't have to suddenly replace decades worth of legislation, international agreements and infrastructure in just two years. Two years in which we've largely not been doing anything to prepare for it anyway.

I don't know what's going to happen in the event of a no deal. I suspect it won't be allowed to happen and we'll fall back to a 'transition' period where we're stuck in limbo until actual agreements are made. However many of the things we take for granted are backed by treaties and agreements so advocating we leave them without replacements would, in theory, mean those things are disrupted.

There seems to be a belief that all the EU is are the people sitting in Brussels and everything will just continue as normal for life here only with fewer Brits amongst those people. If we don't have any agreements to replace those we're leaving then that delusion will be shattered come 29th March.

By the way for all the talk about how it'll be fine, this is all Project Fear, prominent advocators of Brexit know this. UKIP may think a No Deal is fine but they're making damn sure their pensions and entitlements in the EU will have a deal. Dyson might talk about how Britain doesn't need the EU for manufacturing but when it comes to actual investment and money then Singapore, with it's EU agreements, seems to be where his company will produce cars. Nigel Lawson may want Britain out of the EU but he is applying for a French passport so that he can remain an EU citizen. The people who are calling this all Project Fear are making sure they're prepared.

Re: Brexit
 

I'm not short of a good argument. I was referring to the Empire, which a lot of brexiters appear to think we are heading back to. You appear to have missed that subtle point. As for my sentence about the powers of the EU, I thought that was self evident. The government, under the tory party, chose to implement the directives of the EU. In a lot of cases, the very same MPs who are now saying that we are under the control of the EU are those who chose to implement the EU directives they are now complaining about. The EC may not be voted for, but it's left up to the elected members controlling the various nations within the EU to implement those directives.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Best Brexit plan ever:

https://twitter.com/HowlandRobin/sta...48022936166401

- Depose May
- Offer EU FTA, no money > EU reject
- Nothing to vote on in Parl't
- UK leave on WTO terms
- EU realise they need an FTA with UK to
compensate for hole in their budget
- Agree FTA

Ref honoured, UK extricated & free to implement trade deals with RoW.

Done.

Re: Brexit
 

Please do not use the four-letter F-word with Brexiters.
They have been trained by social media to read it as "Project Fear".

Re: Brexit
 

How would a FTA compensate for a whole in the EU budget?

Re: Brexit
 

Wow, such a divisive post.

Not helpful Andrew in the slightest - so I suggest you pack it in. I will not stand for direct attacks on people or a group of people, especially if it is aimed in my direction, right under my own eyes.

It stops right now!!!

Re: Brexit
 

Busy morning you've had Smurf :D

Re: Brexit
 

Yes, and we thank you for your support ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Apologies, could have expressed myself far better and inoffensively. My bad.

Re: Brexit
 

A few questions on that one;

- Depose May - fair enough, who to replace her?
- Offer EU FTA, no money > EU reject - Will FTA answer Northern Ireland question? Will other agreements such as ones for aviation, medicines, etc. be included?
- Nothing to vote on in Parl't - fair enough
- UK leave on WTO terms - what will happen at Northern Ireland border?
- EU realise they need an FTA with UK to
compensate for hole in their budget - as asked above, how does an FTA help the EU budget?
- Agree FTA

Ref honoured, UK extricated & free to implement trade deals with RoW. - as a potential partner who breaks agreements and doesn't pay what they owe

Re: Brexit
 

What I don't understand about the Irish border issue is how does the EU deal with existing land border with non-EU countries, as there are currently 40 such borders

Re: Brexit
 

Other countries have restricted borders to a greater or lesser extent depending on the relationship with the EU. Passport checks, customs clearances, standards checks and veterinary/phytosanitary checks may be required to cross the border.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Theresa May 'not going anywhere' after backbench showdown

The latest as a Brexiteer says the PM's performance in front of Tory MPs at a crunch meeting "goes down very well".
18:37, UK,

https://news.sky.com/story/live-ther...wdown-11534453

Re: Brexit
 

It says up there, offer FTA, no money in the original tweet.

Re: Brexit
 

The problem isn't actually building a border and the infrastructure so much. That would be difficult because of how integrated the country is but we know how to build borders e.t.c.

The problem is that nobody wants a border in Ireland because of the unique circumstances there. Part of the Good Friday Agreement was that people can be both Irish and British in Northern Ireland, have both passports even, and move freely between the two. This helps people who feel Irish in Northern Ireland to feel it's the same country and that's how it sorta works now. People and goods move back and forth as freely as people move between London and Essex.

More here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42180074

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Not quite sure I get you there. The tweet was copied as an example of an approach to Brexit discussions and our future relationship with the EU and further afield. Part of the points made was not offering money and only an FTA which the EU would reject.

Both sides agree that we owe the EU ‘something’ as we are leaving during a budget cycle and we have future ongoing commitments (Nigel Farages pension, etc.)

If we followed Rob Holland’s master plan, we would renege on that agreement, whether it is a legal, moral or goodwill. This could potentially create an image problem down the line with future agreements.

Re: Brexit
 

Just catching up on a few days posts. I know the Leave campaign did exaggerate a few things (£350m, Turkey joining etc) but I think that one surpasses everything, Mick!

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Rather different from what was portrayed would happen in all the speculation.

We all need to calm down. There will be a deal before the end of the year with a transition period, and then we can move on to forging a new trade agreement with the EU and other countries.

I suspect then the remainers will be saying we will never get a trade deal and all the nonsense will start again. And again, they will be wrong.

Time to start being positive. 95% there with the withdrawal agreement, just one small leap....

Re: Brexit
 

.... into a brick wall and another round of Tory infighting no doubt. I'm beginning to think they are a bit biploar, first they want to kill her, now they love her :D

Re: Brexit
 

There will be a weasel worded fudge over the Irish border question.

As for the 95% - what's in it? Will we be disappointed? What would be in the 100%?

Re: Brexit
 

And what if it's 104% agreed, what would that mean ?
(that these percentages are load of doggy doo doos', meant to please the simpletons ? ;) )


According to the Dutch PM, its 0%...

Re: Brexit
 

It doesn't matter what the wording is because there will be evidence or lack thereof in Ireland. The fact it actually needs a decision is why it's one of the bigger problems.

Re: Brexit
 

The 48%.

Re: Brexit
 

Well, he's right in a way, because nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. We are already re-visiting the backstop, which was given the nod months ago!

Still, we are nearly there now, and a solution that both sides can accept on the NI border will be agreed. In the end!

On your first point (the 104%), did you attend the Diane Abbott School of Arithmetic, perchance? Just askin'...

Re: Brexit
 

Which 48%?

Re: Brexit
 

The losers, of course.:D

Re: Brexit
 

As predicted by Project Fear:

Russia blocks UK's post-Brexit tariff proposal at WTO



---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 ----------

I think playtime is over children, back to the classroom :)

Re: Brexit
 

I was factually correct. No mucking around. :D

Re: Brexit
 

Bruce Springsteen will be playing live in my home soon, 95% of the arrangements made, just need him to agree and we will be there.

Time to start being positive, just one small final leap and we’re there...

Re: Brexit
 

Except that with the withdrawal agreement, there is no longer a difference with the negotiators on that 95%.

Whereas with the Bruce thing, he doesn't know about your plans at all! :D

Re: Brexit
 

I know how that feels ;)

Re: Brexit
 

This is interesting:

Westminster Lens: Brexit Statutory Instruments Dashboard

I am not sure what happens if this is not completed before March?

---------- Post added at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was at 20:19 ----------

That may be but it was just another windup attempt ...

---------- Post added at 20:21 ---------- Previous post was at 20:20 ----------

To quote Douglas Adams:

Re: Brexit
 

Agreed - I don’t have a fear of falling; I have a fear of what happens at the fall’s end...

---------- Post added at 21:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...box=1540421178

Re: Brexit
 

OK Hugh so called hard brexit it is then. Fasten your seat belt and prepare for the ride!

The option on the referendum ballot paper will be upheld.

Re: Brexit
 

Which party is better at negotiations? The EU or the UK.

Well, since the Brexit vote, the EU has signed trade deals with Japan, Canada and, last week, Singapore.

And the UK? Still can't agree on an exit with the EU!

Re: Brexit
 

Well the Japan deal started talks in 2013

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8450476.html

And then in 2009 with Canada


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comp...rade_Agreement

And Singapore in 2010

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/legisl...-singapore-fta


So for your three examples minimum 5 years, maximum 9 years.

So to get where we are in less than two, pretty fff’nn good, what do you think?

Re: Brexit
 

Is 0% really ff’nn good? From post 2265

Re: Brexit
 

And if takes that long for trade deals, and we don’t have any at the moment, the financial outlook for the UK is sub-optimal.

Re: Brexit
 

Hang on, I thought the EU was undemocratic! Pesky democratically elected representatives being able to block the European Commission...

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

On the contrary, I'm always talking the UK up. Which country's nationals are behind many of the EU's great trade deals. The UK.
It's those people who even today dismiss thorough and impartial analysis from the UK civil service in derogatory terms as it doesn't fit their beliefs.

Re: Brexit
 

Yes we always comment there's Andrew talking up the uk again :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

You normally include the phrase at least once in the midst of your in-depth analysis. ;)

Re: Brexit
 

One or two reminders are required here.

First, you cannot compare the length of time it takes to get a trade deal with the EU with the time it should take us to forge trade deals with other countries. It has taken years of negotiations for the EU to finalise the deals you mention, partially because all the countries of the EU try to put their oars in. Canada threatened to walk away from the negotiations in frustration after about 7 years of this, so I would not say at all that the EU is good at getting trade deals. Note that after 10 years there is still no deal between the EU and the US.

Secondly, our trade deal negotiations with the EU should be much more straight forward because everything is already harmonised with them, having been a member of the EU ourselves all this time.

Thirdly, discussions between the UK and other countries have been taking place during the current withdrawal negotiatons, and it should be possible to put in place suitable trade arrangements, at least as an interim measure, before agreeing any detailed changes with those countries when we leave the EU. I'm sure we will have documents to be signed immediately at the end of March 2019.

Despite all the noises off, it is really only the NI border that needs sorting out now as far as the withdrawal agreement is concerned, an issue that has been deliberately hyped up to make it look like a major accomplishment to have achieved agreement between the EU and the UK. Be prepared to see a breakthrough at the eleventh hour. That's how the EU operates.

---------- Post added at 13:16 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------

That quote in bold above is absolutely laughable. I assume this guy has not yet worked out that if they vote down a proposed deal with the EU, there will be a hard border anyway, assuming that the EU is actually serious about putting one in!

The UK has come up with several possible solutions. If the EU doesn't come off its high horse soon, it will be left with precisely the situation it says it is seeking to avoid.

Re: Brexit
 

The EU has more trade deals with countries than anyone else so I'm not sure what all that baloney is about them taking a long time. Do you have any actual evidence to prove your point?
You also seem to take issue with countries exercising their sovereign rights. It comes across as Schrodinger's Brexiter - someone who wants the UK to leave the EU so it can exercise its sovereign rights but criticises countries in the EU for exercising their sovereign rights.

Re: Brexit
 

Only trade deals with the EU seem to be interminable.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

#2268 from Pierre.

I have not taken issue with countries exercising their sovereign rights! I am simply pointing out that doing a negotiation with the EU is actually doing a negotiation with 27 countries. This is not the case in respect of any other country with whom we will be and are negotiating.

There is no difference of opinion that I can ascertain in respect of there also being EU trade deals with other countries, so I am not sure why you have made that point.

---------- Post added at 13:28 ---------- Previous post was at 13:25 ----------

You know very well that most of the withdrawal arrangements are in place. That's what the 95% was referring to.

0% merely reflects the fact that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

Re: Brexit
 

Civil servants have been tasked with preparing impartial analysis. You've provided no evidence to the contrary.

Re: Brexit
 

Irrelevant what they have been tasked with - democracy should prevail and democracy decided we leave the EU.

You haven't provided any evidence from day one, because there isn't any, they are predictions and predictions can be wrong (like they have been so far with project fear being nothing but utter fiction!).

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

I am not sure how long you think "interminable" is? Here's some data on FTA's with the US:

How Long Does It Take to Conclude a Trade Agreement With the US?

Re: Brexit
 

And the EU is still yet to agree a deal with the US, the negotiations for which started over a decade ago.

---------- Post added at 15:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:18 ----------

The full details will be made publicly available at the end of the process.

Surely, you are not suggesting that negotiations should be carried out under the full glare of publicity? It's chaotic enough with the morsels the public have been thrown so far!

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed and details will not be made available until there is agreement.

Re: Brexit
 

Those 'scheisters' were elected by the people through direct elections. Are our 73 MEPs 'scheisters'?

Re: Brexit
 

Asking for a friend of a friend. Please can you give her her magic calculator back. Please post it to D. Abbott, House of Commons, Westminster. :D

But seriously, any real evidence for your statement?

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

You will have to be patient, Seph. Negotiations should be confidential, same as carriage deals being negotiated by VM are not revealed until there is agreement.

---------- Post added at 16:33 ---------- Previous post was at 16:32 ----------



Answered twice now, Andrew.

Re: Brexit
 

But we voted for them so they are our democratically elected representatives...

I can understand where the EU might intervene in issues that affect EU treaties, principles and laws but do you have examples of where the EU parliament, commission or council have broken the principles of subsidiarity?

Re: Brexit
 

The petition is doing well

https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...J9XAT85WC240hQ


48,000;)

Re: Brexit
 

We all know they take several years!
The request is to substantiate your argument that the EU takes longer to negotiate trade deals than its peers.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

The Times of London
‏
Verified account

@thetimes
Follow
Follow @thetimes

More
Britain is preparing for trade negotiations with almost two dozen nations after they objected to the terms it proposed for its World Trade Organisation membership after Brexit

Re: Brexit
 

Hmm. It appears the whole world is either punishing us (victim mentality) or taking advantage of our weakened state.

Re: Brexit
 

Less than an hour and half since you posted this - it's gone up by over 2,000 to reach 50K. Not bad to say it's getting very little media coverage.

Not that is matters. There is no high demand for a second vote in the whole of the UK. :)

Re: Brexit
 

Not really compared to the 390,000 that have signed the petition for a new referendum.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8467491.html

Re: Brexit
 

50,000 now