Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well, I have conversations with friends and people I know in the Constituency, having been an active member in the Constituency Party since 1982, funnily enough Brexit comes up in those conversations - no interrogation* required..

Any ordure emanations you are noticing may be from your own orifices. ;)

*strange that you didn’t accuse Old Boy of "interrogations"...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I asked why a “working class Labour” voter would favour no deal over a deal. I’ve had two responses now relating to freedom of movement, which ends even under Theresa May’s deal so that’s a red herring.

Unless you are saying that these voters are irrational and bitter so will hold that against the EU despite, as you correctly point out, our Government never implementing the controls it could/should have.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

He didn’t call anyone racists - he was referring to Hartlepool, where the legend is that they hung a monkey because they thought it was a French spy (which is why Hartlepool residents are referred to as "monkey hangers", in the same way as Middlesbrough residents are referred to as "smog monsters").

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryU...lepool-Monkey/

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That was only part of my post, the movement of industry to other EU countries, and the failure of Labour to save industry in their heartlands was also there.

Freedom of movement May have ended under May’s deal, but that was rejected by Parliament. So don’t what you expect the electorate to say about that. As they have no say on it.

Bitter ......maybe. Irrational.......no.

Irrational according to whom? That is a subjective position and unless you are in their position you are in no place to call anyone irrational.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Maybe because large areas of low paid jobs like manufacturing have been taken over by Europeans pushing out local workers looking for work.

This is probably one of the reasons zero hour contracts came in, high turn over for little pay

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Correct he didn't, Pierre didn't either, he referred to northerners not Hartlepool as being monkey hangers which is (as you point out) incorrect.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Xenophobia, the posh way to call people racists.

I didn’t need the history lesson, I was the one that initially mentioned the hanging of monkeys in full knowledge of its historical context.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

If they’re concerned about industry moving to the EU how does no deal solve that over a deal?

I can easily call someone irrational if they appear to be acting against their own interests which at face value you claim, or at least haven’t proven the contrary with your historic reasons for voting leave. A deal (or none) is about the future.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

There are two reasons why employers use zero-hour contracts as it allows them to take in staff as demand for their services fluctuates..

Also it can be used as a way of avoiding workers' rights.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I don't think Brexit is the issue, it's to do with tax, pay rates and working hours. These companies where probably already on the move anyway brexit is just an excuse.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Companies will always try to lower their wage bill if they can and if that means employing more from outside the UK they will have no hesitation in doing that.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

So basically as I said this is why you get a lot of Europeans working in large numbers for these kinds of jobs now.

Of course it's not just them you do get a lot of Asians as well.

the point being having worked in this kind of industry for years it's pushing out local people who are either claiming benefits trying to find a stable job or pushing them further moving out of the area trying to find work elsewhere

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

They’re past concerned, they’re royally pissed off. They’re less concerned about losing anymore industry, god knows there’s little left.

They’re more hopeful of industry returning under Brexit. Deal or no deal, just Brexit.

agreed, certainly doesn’t make you correct

And you are a custodian of their interests? You know what’s best for them?

My dear JFman this is the very same arrogant bollocks that our Parliament is currently displaying, and look where they are, especially in the eyes of a large number of the electorate

Do some more research, and educate yourself. Know your past, fix your future.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The fault does not lie with Europeans coming over here for work as the fault lies with companies who are prepared to undercut what they paid UK employees previously.

---------- Post added at 18:42 ---------- Previous post was at 18:41 ----------

The same sentiment still applies.

---------- Post added at 18:45 ---------- Previous post was at 18:42 ----------

And of course its very easy for certain parts of the media and their narrative they espouse to blame all our deep ills on Johnny Foreigner coming over here and taking all our jobs.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The place I work at is now staffed approx 70% by foreign workers

and that's just one place in the UK . . go figure

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

And that is their fault?.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Has anyone said it’s Their fault?

I don’t think anyone blames any foreign national working here, doing the best they can for themselves and their families. They are blameless.

Also blameless are the U.K communities that have been affected by immigration and the demise of U.K. industry, partly due to Policies.

So who should we blame?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Certain media outlets play on the narrative its all their fault abroad and from there its very easy to propagate a exaggerated myth that those coming from abroad are to blame.

---------- Post added at 19:20 ---------- Previous post was at 19:18 ----------

Indeed they are blameless as they have families to feed just like any of us.

---------- Post added at 19:20 ---------- Previous post was at 19:20 ----------


+1

---------- Post added at 19:24 ---------- Previous post was at 19:20 ----------

Politicians and some of their policies which have been deeply detrimental to many poorer communities.

And some companies who then take advantage of that by undercutting local workers by replacing them with labour that is cheaper.

Of course they are just a couple of things as l am sure you have some thoughts of your own.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Minimum wage is Minimum wage, no matter who you are or where you're from.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think a lot of Brexiteers are just fed up with EU interference and just want a conventional trade deal with them, not the 'very close links' that TM had in mind.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Although in some industries its not down to the minimum wage as its more down to a poorer skill set from some local workers.

That has everything to do with how much some companies are then prepared to spend to skill up the local workforce and some companies take the easier and cheaper option of employing many of their workforce from abroad.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Most employers don't have that intention, although there have been some who have exploited people, it's true.

Zero hour contracts, formerly known as 'casual contracts' are there to provide flexibility both to employers and employees. Some employees like this flexibility - contracts with rigid hours would not suit them.

Frankly, if you are looking for full time employment, zero hour contracts are not what you should be looking for. If you are a student looking for some extra money during the holidays with flexible hours so you can still have plenty of time to socialise, these contracts are perfect.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You think a lot of Brexiteers or working class Labour voting Brexit supporters are fed up?

We’re going from something apparently “obvious” to something loosely connected and speculative in the short space of four hours.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Labour should be concerned a lot by the latter.

No, this has always been obvious. But several years down the line and Corbyn, Thornberry, McDonnell and Watson, have forgotten about Teesside, Rochdale, Oldham, Doncaster, Blyth, for example, and there are many many more.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That is my point though retail/manufacturing areas are all starting to go either agency or zero hour. they have cut off a large areas of the working class person and paying minimum wage for jobs that should clearly be paying much more for the work required hence the reason I said you get a lot of none english working in these roles now as they appear to be happy doing this.

Perhaps the same job over in their country pays half that to what they get over here I don't know the reasons why this side of the industry is changing.

This could be down to why these companies are moving as it clearly is cheaper abroad which they have stated before the reasons for doing this while some just like to use brexit as a reason.

Clearly there is a market area where all these foreigners steal our jobs so to speak and is the lower end of the market which doesn't appear to be getting reported on.

I work for the NHS we have nursing staff from all over the world. The first thing they say to me is the working rights and pay are much better than their own countries hence coming to work here.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Most employers don't want to minimise their costs? That sounds to me like a flat out fabrication.

While a tiny minority of people do enjoy flexibility the vast majority of the workforce enjoy stability.

Unrestricted capitalism is the problem and you've done an excellent explanation of why. Zero hour contracts are replacing fixed hour contracts in areas such as retail and hospitality - your answer is these people should just find full time jobs instead! Where? If it was that easy why haven't they - unless you are going to accuse them of being irrational.

I'm not sure it's that easy with a mortgage, family, etc.

---------- Post added at 20:26 ---------- Previous post was at 20:24 ----------

That still doesn't answer the question as to why 'no deal' Brexit is better for these people than leaving with a deal?

All I've heard is freedom of movement. We've already identified we can blame UK Governments for not imposing restrictions they could have and it goes even if we leave with a deal.

As Old Boy says above - can't they just have found other jobs?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I was under the assumption the UK other EU countries were restricted to the kind of deals they can do outside the EU?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well the truth, is that no one can really answer that question, as no one knows the answer.

Hypothetically, we’ve probably mad decisions that have been to our detriment in the short term to benefit us in the long term. I have.

In my early career, ( about 25 years ago when 4K was a chunk to me} I took a £4K pay cut, to Join a company that I could see I could progress better in. It took me several years to get past where I was, but i’m Sure it was right move.

Long term v immediate term. Still no guarantee but you should not be scared to go for it.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That's all I needed to know.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Indeed, but that is the stock answer for everything, on both sides. So don’t take any high grond from it..........I know you won’t.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I asked a question four hours ago and was told that there were clear and obvious answers. Here we are and there are none.

It's not about claiming high ground it's about facts. If you don't know of any clear or obvious reason why a working class Labour voter should prefer a no deal Brexit over a deal then I would advise in future you don't try to wing it for a couple of replies before being found out.

Specifically you said the following:

Clearly, it's not that naive as the entire brainpower of the right-leaning leave campaign on this forum has been unable to offer me a clear answer. Indeed, you specifically have now said that isn't possible to answer.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

If you wanted a specific answer you should've asked a working class Labour supporter.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Ready and waiting should one read my post in this thread. :)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Excuse me........ahem.

Your question was a fairly general on as to why “no deal” Brexit was better for those in Labour heartlands than a “deal”

Whereas my reply also generally was that, they don’t really care. To them a Brexit is a Brexit.

I haven’t been found out about anything, as I haven’t been hiding. My point was and still is that a working class Labour voter in the midlands and northern heartlands couldn’t give a flying fcuk about a deal, they just want Brexit. I think i’ve been consistent with that point.

I stand by that 100%, it will be their downfall

You’re confused. Because your question implies that they care. My point is that they, and we, are beyond what a “deal” and “no deal” Brexit may or may not deliver.

They just want brexit with no prefixes or suffixes.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Wow. They’re ignorant. Between that and Old Boy implying they don’t understand the complexities of it - indeed implying many believe no deal is the only way to end freedom of movement.

Millions of voters incapable of gauging their best interests so instead will pick anything. And you say it’s the remain voters who have a poor view of leave voters.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

When you assemble that into a point that makes sense without insulting just about everybody whose not you, watch this.

https://www.facebook.com/1210321863/...839931?sfns=mo

Then go and bath in the blood of dead virgins or something...................................It’s a joke, and a film reference...................

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Dole class :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion