re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That they are. However, some will cast their vote on that issue. Some will believe the doom and gloom and some will believe this mornings one - another 2 years of austerity.

I wasn't too worried about the vote until now and was quietly confident of a Leave vote but with all this coming out now, I'm not so confident. The good thing is that after Friday the Government can't do any more to influence the vote.

---------- Post added at 06:42 ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 ----------

That's a good question and I don't know the answer to it. However, while trying to find out, I came across this interesting site.

Brexit – what would happen if Britain left the EU?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-referendum-uk

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Lots of supporting information for both sides of the debate in that article, showing that it isn't cut and dried, no matter what either side says...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

People also have short memories and the ludicrous gloom and doom opinions, for that is all they are, will soon be forgotten. It's the outpourings in the last few days before the vote that will matter and then only on those who are undecided.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's all starting to ramp up now isn't it?

On economics, one point Brexit people make is that we are the 5th largest economy globally so there wouldn't be a tariff shock. If that is the case, why are there still tariffs in place for imports and exports to Japan, China and the US who are larger economies than the UK? Doesn't BMW, Siemens, etc. want to sell to those countries?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So the simple answer to this is anyone in the EU is now owned by the EU and you can never leave due to dire consequences to that country and how the world will treat them?

Because that is how it is coming across from the globe and people want to vote to stay in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We are still undecided in our household and are still separating the wheat from the chaff in terms of what to believe and not what to believe but whatever way we decide we will certainly be glad when its all over that's for sure.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't really get why anyone much over the age of 40 needs to be convinced of anything.

You've been around the planet long enough to make your own mind up, due to that thing us older folk call 'experience'
It counts for a lot you know, We need as a nation to stop being so sheeplike and vote/decide on things based upon what we've experienced in our lifetimes.
This will be far more pertinent than anything that one BS politician after another says in a really short timeframe by comparison.

No one here should be agonising about anything. Make up your own mind, based on your experience and vote accordingly - however that may be. That's between you and your conscience.

Just please please spare me the 'I haven't made my mind up yet' spiel, no one here is 12, so lets all be a bit grown up.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Project Fear UK, isn't just about the UK it's about sending a very stern message to anyone else in Europe who might dare to challenge Brussels. If they can beat down, with threats, the world's 5th largest economy and the EU's second largest contributor they'll truly feel they're untouchable and I'd fully expect them to take the opportunity to prevent any further challenges to their supremacy.

What they're clearly not going to do is sit back, take stock, learn some important lessons and reform so bear that in mind if you're considering more of the same. It won't be more of the same it'll more of worse!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Let's fix Britain. it's what The Great British people want.

Vote Out!

and it's good news to hear that Dave is leaving.
him leaving and us leaving is what Britain needs.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Get Private Eye..at the present they are the only media that are actually pointing out what BOTH sides have got wrong..and right.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed it's simple for anyone over 40. Vote Leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes l will certainly consider that so thanks for that heads up Maggy.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Still not heard a lot about why I SHOULD vote for one side, just lots about why I SHOULDN'T vote the other way.

Wouldn't make too much difference. I would need a really, really strong reason to stay.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Totally agree and I think matters will be much worse for the UK from an EU point of view after this referendum I certainly don't see us having much swing in Europe if we decide to stay

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I haven't heard anything conciliatory emanating from the EU, just threats (veiled or otherwise) about 'what'll happen if...' I don't think true 'friends' of the UK would want to go down that route even if they strongly disagreed with our concerns about the EU's future and desire to leave. They seem to be treating us rather like a child wanting to leave home by warning us that, rather than making things work to the mutual good, they'll cut us off and make life more difficult. Nice...

If any of the other big nations had decided to vote on leaving the EU before us, does anyone think the UK would have reacted in a similarly hostile fashion in order to influence their decison? Is that a big difference between 'us and them'? :confused:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I wish I could help. I'm in my 60s and am going on experience which is why I'm voting out as I think and hope the rest of my generation will. If you're under 40, you've nothing to compare the EU with as we have.

Remember that the EU we are in isn't what those who voted to remain in 1975 voted for. Then it was a Common Market - a trade zone only but it has become more of a Political Union as the decades have passed. I voted to leave in 1975 because I knew where it would lead and have the satisfaction of saying I told you so. It doesn't take a genius to work out the next stage, total integration. Despite Britain opting out of this and that, there will come a time where there won't be a choice - they either join the lot or leave. So why not leave now?

Remember too that all the economic arguments coming out are worse case scenarios, they are not Gospel. Those making these forecasts have more to gain by staying in than coming out because the EU is a rich mans' club. Don't get me wrong, I am not naïve enough to think things will be a bed of roses if we leave. There will be a short period of economic instability where trade deals are worked out. Some may continue as they are, I don't know but I do know that the EU need us more than we need them and they will be reluctant to put obstacles in our way.

On defence: The EU want a European Army to go along with their closer integration police. This they have admitted to but it's no secret they want one country Called Europe. You can find information on the net that they have wanted this since the early 50s. If you think that's the way to go then fair enough it may sway you towards staying.

It would take the whole forum if I carry on but hope this helps. These are facts about the closer integration and European army and can be found on the net.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Judge Dredd coming soon ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sorry chief, 45 and I'm voting IN

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

you were only a toddler then so let you off. you come under same as those under 40. Let's say those under 50 then?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm 38 and voting out

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Anyone who's remotely interested in us determining our own laws, values, priorities, economic policies etc. etc. etc. needs to vote out because that's the only way we'll be able to do those things. It seems to me that those who'd vote to stay in either don't think the above are sufficiently important reasons to justify leaving, would rather have Brussels bureaucrats telling us what to do or simply don't care.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Quite right ,i am too young to have voted in '75 but i do remember the referendum and i remember us joining the Common Market and decimalisation .We are often told that the EEC or Common Market was always intended to be a single union for trade , travel and work between European countries as it is now but the trouble was that we didn't have the internet or 24hr rolling news all we had was newspapers and the odd public information film to relay information from the government to the public and in most ways the paper you read in those days governed your politics .My dad told me that the EEC was a trade federation designed to make trading easier between European countries ,he didn't tell me that the EEC was the first step in a United States of Europe simply because he didn't know .Even the question asked in the '75 referendum was misleading
"Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?" note the phrase Common Market ,nothing at all about ever closer political and financial union .What we need now is for our leaders to come clean and say exactly what is intended for Europe and let us decide if we want it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They won't do that because they can't. They know most people here don't want to be part of a single state. They'll carry on denying the fact and banging on about vetoes etc. until it gets to the point where sufficient powers are yielded to Brussels that the deal is effectively done for us.

My God why is anyone lauding the EU as if it's some sort of beacon of success and prospering both economically and socially when we already have huge chaos in Greece, massive unemployment in Spain, the French economy in the doldrums, growing concerns about the Italian banks, migration out of control, increasing right wing extremism etc. etc.? How bad does being outside the EU have to be in order to be worse that all that (and more) and why would we want to be further tethered to it? If what I've just described were happening somewhere else I reckon we'd all be delighted to be as far away from it all as possible and doing whatever we could to reduce our exposure to any fallout. What we wouldn't be doing is the complete opposite and voting to become fully paid up members... :spin:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If anyone is in any doubt This is from 2014 before the European Elections.

We want a United States of Europe says top EU official

Voters must decide for or against a United States of Europe during EU elections this spring, says vice president of the European Commission

A campaign for the European Union to become a "United States of Europe" will be the "best weapon against the Eurosceptics", one of Brussels' most senior officials has said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-official.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Snigger if you want to but the joke is on you :(

---------- Post added at 21:55 ---------- Previous post was at 21:53 ----------

Yep

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You don't think it's coming. Mega city 1 with judge style cops....it might sounds fantasy but a united EU might even consider this in the future with its own little army and police or maybe a united EU will be like star trek and we can all better ourselves for the human race being one happy family lol

That is why we need out I won't be selling my soul to the devil

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

lol, I read your comment the other way round. I thought you were taking the mick. :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No lol I was referring to the other post as to how a united EU with the UK being part of that and we wouldn't have British police they would be EU police governed by EU laws rather than our own.

Hence the Judge Dredd comment

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm 45 and my time as an adult has convinced me we are better off out of the EU I'm sorry but I'm just not getting the positives that we are supposedly benefiting from by being a member of the EU and see none in the future. Also talking to a few friends this government is being very selective in what information is being given out and there is a culture of fear within the civil service and even the armed forces if your saying anything other then the government line. Our security is sure as hell not enhanced being in the EU as intelligence sharing has basically been a one-way street for a decade the UK giving a lot out and getting very little back from our European neighbours and our military is certainly not fully behind an in vote.

This government should be ashamed of the way they have handled this and a lot of people voting to stay in may well be very upset in the next couple of years as some things happen they were not told about even though the government is fully aware. There isn't just a campaign of scare and fear mongering going on there is a deliberate withholding of information pertinent to this referendum. I am so sick and tired of the whole spineless political establishment right now that I can't see myself voting for a longtime after this referendum as not one of them us worth the ink on the ballot.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This is quite factual & concise

http://www.bbc.co.uk/timelines/z9n3qty

It certainly shows that the UK as a whole has always sat fairly uneasily within a European framework. The EU aspiration looks to be realised only by a few politicians with daydreams rather than the will of the people.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Interesting. And people want to stay? If we vote to stay I think we will live to regret it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't disagree, but I stated my feelings wayyy back on the thread & I think there's a danger of people repeating ad infinitum and turning people off or even pulling them the other way.

I think people need to make their own minds up and vote as they wish rather than be bullied or chastised into a decision.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's the biggest fault in both camps they are appealing to the lowest common denominator and playing the fear game, despite the opinion in some quarters of politicians I think the British people are intelligent and able to weigh the merits if they were given the chance. We clearly can't rely on those with the facts to present them in a way that allows people to make an informed choice so personal factors like experience, gut feeling and even hope will have to be the criteria people use in deciding their direction.

That this is the situation in 2016 speaks volumes for how far things have declined.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think for most people, the EU has little to no direct influence in their lives that is visible so a vote either way is a 'heart' rather than 'head' decision. Hence the project fear from both sides. People don't give a monkeys about an x% drop in GDP, hence the ridiculous £4300 figure. Conversely, you get the 'everything is going to be alright' argument if we leave with no real evidence or even plans in place

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No one here is bullying anyone as far as I can see. Either side presents their case to help those who have said they are undecided.

---------- Post added at 11:29 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

I suggest reading reality check on the BBC site or listening to the News Channel where they analyse what both sides are saying and present the facts. Both sides are, in most cases telling the truth, they are just embellishing what they say to make it sound good.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What with warnings of WW3 and massive drops in house prices, not to mention it being 'unpatriotic' to vote out I'd say that the remanians are winning the embelishment game! :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Fullfact.org is excellent too.

One big whopper from the Leave campaign is the £350 million spent each week though

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yep it's actually about half that figure

---------- Post added at 15:17 ---------- Previous post was at 15:05 ----------

I think most people will vote by they see ,if they live in area that is swamped by immigrants and can't see their doctor or get the school place they want they will most likely vote out because for years the media has been telling us that it's all the fault of Europe ,not to mention the Tories during the Blair years where blaming Europe for everything

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No when they say that the economy will take a hit for example.

It is bound to but it won't be anywhere like they say. They use the worse case scenarios.

When they say there will be trade with UK countries.

Of course there will but it won't be as easy as some are saying.

---------- Post added at 15:39 ---------- Previous post was at 15:30 ----------

They know this. Again it's a case of embellishing the truth. The cost is £350 million a week but when you take things like the rebate and other funding into account it's more like £170 million. That's still a lot of candy. The problem leave has is will that money go to cover what the EU gives in funding? £88 million I believe.

But it isn't just what we send to the EU is it? There are other costs like keeping the MEPs. Hotels or accommodation for them. Their expenses. The costs of conferences to name but a few things.

---------- Post added at 15:47 ---------- Previous post was at 15:39 ----------

Immigration Rises 'Significantly' Again, ONS Figures Reveal, Despite Government's Promise To Slash Numbers

The figures mean that the Prime Minister and Home Secretary, who pledged to slash net migration to below 100,000 by the election, have officially failed to fulfill that pledge.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...n_6758050.html

And this is only the start. It will keep rising. If the referendum was decided on immigration we would leave on June 23rd IMHO.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I agree. It's a lot easier to be relaxed about this matter when your daily life is barely affected by it. As we've seen in the EU though, people in places like Austria and Germany were relaxed (and welcoming) about it all until the migrants started moving from Greece and S. Italy to their countries and didn't stop. We all know what happened then. What people here need to realise is that if the numbers carry on at the present rate, they will eventually have to face the truth but it'll be too late to do anything about it. Without any great influx from Syria officially, yet, the fact is that our population is growing by c. 1,000,000 people every 3 years, half of which is EU migration and therefore unstoppable. Add to that the additional population increases due to birth rates amongst the new migrants and the figure will be even higher in the longer term. Whilst we're in the EU we cannot stop this despite the fact that our services and infrastructure demonstrably cannot cope with the needs of the current population.

No, leaving the EU won't solve our immigration problems overnight or be a panacea for all our ills but it'll help considerably in tackling a serious problem which threatens to destabilise the whole of Europe.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I haven't seen much of "everything will be rosy" statements from leave there is an acceptance there will be an economic hit in the event we vote to leave but the hit will not be as catastrophic as remain would have everyone believe and we will then be in a position to trade with who we want when we want with the only limitations being those we impose ourselves. Sadly I think remain will win people are taking notice of all the doom and gloom and it's sinking in even though many likely don't fully believe what they are being told.

If nothing else after this the British people need to remember the conduct of the politicians and start to sort that out as the only thing worse then the UK bring in the EU is us remaining in with the political jellyfish we have now. It's bad enough that Cameron tried to convince us he got a deal before when he basically got sod all we need strength in our future dealings with the EU as if we do vote to remain the euro fanatics are going to see it as complete validation for the grand plan they have zero interest in any meaningful reform.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

One thing that doesn't help, and this is true for both sides, is the increasing use of pejorative terms when discussing the opinions of each side on this debate. Calling people terms like "euro fanatics" just winds them up and they come back with terms like "swivel eyed right wing loons".

We are allowed our opinions and when someone thinks we should Leave or someone else thinks we should Remain then that's fine. Both are entitled to their opinions ..

Just make a judgement call and vote on it .. BTW, I looked it up, Remain wins: 52.3%

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

At the moment, the bookies are giving odds of

In 1/7
Out 4/1

https://www.justbookies.com/election-odds/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And the bookies are rarely wrong..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm not referring to any voter when I use the term "euro fanatic" I'm referring to the group within the EU political class who only see one way to progress and one endpoint, I perhaps should have made that clearer but given my prior posts regarding how voters should not be labeled anything I assumed people would understand that. In terms of individual voters I've made my views clear in previous posts where I stand on that.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cameron went into this clearly giving the electorate the impression that he was open minded to the extent that if he couldn't get what he wanted he felt the UK could do well outside the EU. Now, having not got what he said he wanted, he's claiming it'll be the end of civilisation were the UK to exit. On the scale of deceit, that has to be a con trick of Bliar like proportions.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I wasn't aiming my comment just at you. There are others, one in particular, who constantly characterise those who disagree with them and their views are somehow mentally defective.

People need to step back and respect each other's ability to make their own minds up without having a constant barrage of the same repetitive invective being served up.

Make your point, step back and let other's make their points ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What he said.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Whatever the vote I hope once it's over the things that have been done during the run up to the referendum are not forgotten and we keep on electing the same politicians as whatever the result of the referendum we have a huge problem in the UK.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The biggest problem we have is the politicians, not one of them can be trusted.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

it's a shame we voted to be in the EU the first time....looking at the doom and gloom spreaders it seems apparent that signing up to the EU meant you can never leave the EU

(our souls were signed away)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We never voted to be in the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well the various threats have had the opposite affect on me and have further solidified my view as to how I should vote, I've never dealt well with bullies and I've never had a friend where our friendship was continued by being threatened. Of the few pro EU people I've met not one has so far given me a unique benefit of us being in the EU that we would not have been able to obtain outside of the EU. Like many good ideas in the past the EU is yet another example of poor implementation by poor individuals as the original stated aims of the EEC were something everyone agreed with hence the vote in 75.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Correct! We had no say in the matter. There should have been a referendum as to whether or not we wanted to join not one to stay or leave. By the time we got that referendum it was too late.

---------- Post added at 06:58 ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 ----------

Did anyone watch that so called debate on the EU on BBC last night? All I saw was the same old story and it didn't change my stance. However, it did sway same for both sides but I think in the cold light of day some of those who were swayed may rethink their decision.

The thing that kept coming up was immigration. People are obviously worried about it and nothing I heard from either side eased my concerns.

Now the latest scare tactic came out at the 11th hour last night saying pensions would be £135 a year worse off in real terms. What exactly is this 'in real terms'? I've never liked the use of this because I've never really understood what they mean. As time goes on and prices rise and times get harder the pensions are in effect always diminishing so what exactly do they mean? Whether we are in or out of the EU surely it isn't going to make any difference?

Anyway, that aside it's not so much the fact they came out with this latest scare that angers me, it's the timing of it. From midnight the vote can't be influenced by Whitehall or any other departments so I see it as a final attempt to shock voters into voting to stay in the EU.

Well that's done and dusted now as they can no longer interfere so lets hope we get a proper debate now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I cant see that happening. Its not in anyone's interests to allow the public access to any useful information. I feel what we want now is a campaign to boycott the referendum. If we could reduce the turnout to less than say 20% and or have a campaign to spoil one ballot paper the politicians might ( though unlikely) sit up and take some notice.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Were you talking about a general election I would agree with you 100%.

However you aren't and this referendum is much too important to withold your vote.

A general election is for short term change this referendum will effect generations and is a rare opportunity to actually make your voice heard whichever way you decide to vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Have to agree there it's too important to waste the vote. However we can hope, if you are inclined towards leave, that the youngsters don't bother voting. The less number of the younger generation that vote the better chance we have of a leave vote.

---------- Post added at 11:48 ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 ----------

When you talk of wasting votes it might be a great idea to do it for the next election, let these politicians know what we think of them and their behaviour during this referendum. Someone could organise an online petition to that effect. I can't, I don't know how but sites like this must have the means.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's difficult not to when, for example, there was a student on telly last night arguing that we should vote in because we'll get cheaper mobile roaming charges!
........'course we'd be on our way to losing our democracy, but who cares! :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cheaper roaming lol. Thanks to its porous borders, flawed policy and the Schengen agreement, 'roaming' has been made free for countless thousands of people from around the globe...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed it has. I noticed too on this morning's debate BBC News and 5 Live 08.30 that the remain part of the audience stuttered and hummed and hawed when giving an answer then said something like we need the immigrants. Yes we do need them but we want it to be our choice who comes in not Brussels. I got the impression from that show this morning that EU Citizens were getting priority over Non-EU who probably have better skills and training. Is this right? At least if we leave, we'd choose who comes in.

---------- Post added at 13:21 ---------- Previous post was at 13:18 ----------

Oh and on the news this morning it was actually Churchill who first mentioned a United States of Europe and told them it had better be soon. About 5 years later the EU was born.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My ballot paper arrived to-day so I filled it in and posted it. So I now I have no need to listen to all the meaningless drivel in the papers and TV

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

not got mine yet but it will be a big fat x on LEAVE!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Today I came across something that well and truly ghasted my flabber & from a family member too

They've decided they want to stay in the EU because...

If we leave the Tories will be able to do all sort of horrible things, so he's voting to stay IN so there!

wut?

WUT?

Are there more out there like that?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Corbyn's staying very quiet. Could it be that he's hoping to pick up kudos from Dave and Gideon's self immolation?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well you did tell people to make up their mind and that's what the family member have done even though you might disagree with them.:)

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/35...-post2207.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This is true, however he hasn't made his mind up about anything more than I HATE THE TORIES.

Which isn't really the issue. It just seemed a really bizarre reasoning - forget the rights & wrongs of the EU - just go straight to 'It'll stop the Tories'

sigh.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes its not the reason of how l would base my decision on but each to their own on what makes them base their yes or no decision on.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Postal vote came today, and the question is very well worded, and not confusing like some of my family thought it would be. Would I be breaching rules if I posted the question and options?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't think so. Go for it!

---------- Post added at 20:52 ---------- Previous post was at 20:51 ----------

That takes a special kind of stupid! They walk among us :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sadly there are plenty of folks who can't see beyond the ends of the noses. They're bound by blind allegiance or preoccupied with trivia.

---------- Post added at 21:36 ---------- Previous post was at 21:32 ----------

I don't think I can recall a time when the official opposition has been so invisible when it comes to something so important. My God, Labour have had some pretty crappy leaders in my lifetime but I can't imagine any of them emulating Corbyn's approach right now. It's as if he's living in a time warp and believes he's an NUS rep...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's a completely nonsensical way to decide.

If we come out, and the government does 'bad things', you throw them out at the next election.

If we stay in, and we get bad EU laws, you can't throw the EU 'leaders' out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yup, some folks do seem to keep missing that don't they. Not sure why because it's really pretty obvious...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That does bother me. How can they be so breathtakingly oblivious?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There's a shock, making stuff up

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...mmittee-report

Probably the only thing that's accurate is that we're all totally fed up with it

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My god, someone on this forum, actually admits to hating the Tories. I think that Cameron will resign after the ref.

I am voting OUT, as we need to control our OWN borders. This Country will improve vastly, and prosper.

At the moment, we are being told what to do from Brussels. We pay in more EACH day, then we get back.

We are told by Brussel's, how many Migrants to take.

Cameron and Co, are nothing but weak.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The exaggerated claims from both sides are off putting and are turning people off this referendum and while I believe a degree of it is deliberate the scale of exaggeration and outright lies so far and likely to continue is very damaging to the political process in the UK. I knew before this referendum that our politicians were anything but high calibre public servants but they have managed to plummet even further then my low expectations which was not an easy thing. I think the best thing for those of us who have decided our vote is to just steer clear of anything referendum related and just wait for the 23rd of June.

For those undecided good luck with trying to find anything tangible to help you make your choice as I see nothing to suggest that rational fact based campaigning is going to make an appearance anytime soon.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The question is worded:

Should the United Kingdom remain in the European Union, or leave the European Union?

Boxes to check, not surprisingly, are:

Remain in the EU
Leave the EU

I've voted leave, I don't mind immigration but have felt for a long time we should operate on a points system like Australia does.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

God I hope not!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Never underestimate the power of large numbers of stupid people. :(

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Tell him/her that it makes no difference if we're in or out, the Tories are here to stay for the foreseeable future and will do horrible things regardless.

---------- Post added at 10:01 ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 ----------

He is. His problem is he wants out of the EU but can't campaign for it. It must be really frustrating for him. But this is good for Brexit as there are not so many fighting as there could have been.

---------- Post added at 10:04 ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 ----------

And the money we do get back we can't spend as we want. We have to spend it on what the EU say.

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

Correct me if I'm wrong here but should that not read:

Should the United Kingdom remain in a reformed European Union or leave the European Union? Or have they decided to drop the Reformed? If so then it appears they don't want reform and are happy with the status quo. The wording is interesting because that would make me vote leave because there is no mention of reform.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Maybe the 'grand plan' is for our own politicians to plumb the depths of ineptitude, cronyism, duplicity etc. etc. to such an extent that for, a good number of people, anything from the EU seems like it couldn't possibly be worse than what we have... :erm: ;)

---------- Post added at 10:29 ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 ----------

Meanwhile, the 'remainers' have suffered a major blow to their credibility which could prove disastrous:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36403826

:)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Originally the question as proposed by the Government was
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?"


The Electoral Commission recommended a change to
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

This was accepted by the Government .

interesting to note how leading the first draught by the government was.

On a more disturbing note the Electoral Commission found that

http://www.electoralcommission.org.u...ent-report.pdf

How the hell does a British citizen get to voting age without knowing we are already part of the EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

People that just aren't engaged in politics at all, I've seen people who don't know who the PM is or what Labour and the Conservatives are. Not surprised to be honest.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Some people are so divorced from reality that unless it's on twitter or facebook they don't know about it. :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We like to watch the news and current affairs programmes as at least they keep you in touch with most things on a regular basis.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

A person shouldn't have to be engaged in politics at all simply a basic education should do the trick

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There's a staggering amount of that around and its not just ignorance of politics either. I listen to some of my son's mates and you have to wonder just where they've been and why so little of what's going on around them has sunk in, even if purely subliminally. Maybe it's down, in part, to a lifestyle which presents so many diversions of one sort or another. It's not just here either, the wife's family back home are seeing the same with their kids and younger people in general there. They spend vast amounts of time living virtual lives that they experience and are influenced far less by the reality.

---------- Post added at 12:24 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------

It should but clearly doesn't. Think back to when we were at school and the amount of research/reading you had to do to find information about a homework topic - scouring text books, going to the reference library etc. You couldn't just ask Mr Google, Ms Cortana or someone for the answers and accordingly we were picking up information even though we didn't know it and it wasn't necessarily directly relevant. Not only that but we were used to having to make that effort. Now, it's just so easy to find information with no effort that people have tended to become lazier when it comes to learning and accept the first answer the search result lists. What reason is there to learn something when you feel you can find out at the touch of a button if/when you need it? Being inquisitive isn't really necessary anymore.

Anyway, we're digressing, although ignorance certainly isn't new or limited to the younger generation, maybe the reasons for it have changed over time.

---------- Post added at 12:27 ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 ----------

and tend to believe it regardless of whether it's true.

So much access to information yet so much ignorance...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Some people just don't care. It's what people engaged with politics get wrong when they point at the number of non-voters and assume that they can be made to come out and vote. It's not disillusionment, it's that they simply don't care.

I think it's because it's hard for them to see what difference it makes to their day-to-day lives. For a start recent years have seen little difference between the two major parties and with he economy along with globalisation having such a driving force on policy it's hard for any one government to make massive, wholesale, changes. So the impact of different governments are felt by people on the edges of society, the very poor or the very rich, who feel the tinkering changes that these governments do make.

The rest of it is just a slightly different approach to some parts of their life which would probably happen either way. The things that do matter to them go on as do their lives and the rest of it? So what.

I think it may be changing though. We're seeing less moderate people rising to the top of politics and they're more populist or ideologically than the likes of Blair, Cameron and Obama. Issues such as the economic crash, stagnating wages, a spareness of homes and the continuing decline of manual work in the Western world means people's lives are now being impacted.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Apologies I misread that but yes be a member would confuse some but to say they didn't know we were already a member is stupidity at its height.

Christ I know they are coming out of school thicker these days but they surely can't be that stupid?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Photo of the ballot paper. If this breaches rules, please remove.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I am. They should be taught that at school, we were.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes, don't care, don't think, ignorant, disillusioned or whatever, our glorious leaders must quite like having an electorate, a large proportion of which don't vote for one reason or another. It's much harder being held accountable be people who do care and will make waves.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well Ed Miliband is back urging youngsters to register to vote. He said it would stop a Brexit vote as statistics show they are more likely to vote remain.

Without them there is likely to be a Brexit vote

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Ed who?

Wasn't he something to do with failed Liebour?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Surprisingly many people I have spoken to covering a wide age range are all saying the same, that they are sick to death of scaremongering extreme forecasts based on dodgy statistics coming from the Remain campaign and thus are likely to vote leave because they would rather we were in charge of our own destiny as a nation than trust those who are telling us lies which even the all party Treasury Select Committee are questioning!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Actually, they are condemning stats and statements from both sides of the argument...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36397732 It's amusing you are misquoting a committee that has asked both sides to stop making misleading statements...:D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

People said the same during the Scottish Referendum. So many people said that they were No voters but the negativity of the Better Together campaign had turned them into Yes voters and I never really believed it. I don't think people act rebellious on voters they think matter.

Baring any extraordinary event I think the die is already cast for the result and would have been early on. There isn't a lot of evidence that campaigns shift too many voters with many being decided before the campaigns begin. I was reading a book about how the Tories won the last election and for the most part the internal polling they had back in October '14 matched the result they got in May '15.

The theory is that although polling does fluctuate in the campaign it tends to revert back to what the voters probably would have done before those campaigns begun. That the fundamental concerns of voters will win out in the end irrespective of what happens otherwise.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I wasn't actually misquoting anything, I was relaying the opinions of people I had spoken to who appear to be more negatively influenced by what is being said by the Remain campaign.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So the lower box for me :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And me.