re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I was referring to the whole Turkey strategy of Vote Leave. The poll accompanies this poster for example:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2016/05/2.png

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That seems like a reasonable warning to me.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But Turkey are not joining the EU and we have a Veto if we did. Still it remains a possibility as does the economy entering a recession, let whereas the former is 'a reasonable warning' it the latter is scaremongering.

I wonder if there is a single thing Remain has said that hasn't been dismissed as scaremongering or talking Britain down by leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well if I listen to Cameron Damien turkey will become a member of the EU in a previous speech he was quite clear in wanting to pave roads from Brussels to Ankara and was quite enthusiastic about turkey joining the EU. Of course he is now saying differently as it's not a positive thing to pursue at the minute, but given the EU's desire to expand you honestly believe they are not going to admit turkey at some point in the next ten years?. This for me is another problem with the EU they are extremely selective on what they admit and what they tell any of us about future plans and pardon me for being cynical but that veto isn't worth the paper it's written on and once the issue of member states leaving the EU goes away so will that veto.

I asked before and Osem has also said if the EU is so great why are so many keen to get out and see it collapse surely we should all be happy and enthusiastic about the EU but we are not and as much as some would like to pretend it's only the UK that feels this way it isn't this movement is in many countries and growing. For me it isn't if the EU is going to collapse it's when and I'd much prefer the UK to have gotten out and be building rather then clinging onto the end with all the damage that will do.

As for fear there is no debate on who has used it most in this fiasco and we have weeks more of it to come I just hope enough don't fall for it and vote to remain as that will be more damaging for the UK and if we do vote to remain I think we will see quite quickly how much the EU really values the UK.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

By what mechanism will get rid of the veto and, if it wasn't worth the paper it was written on, then why have we been able to use it before? Cameron has said he would like Turkey to join the EU as has Boris Johnson and other members of the Leave campaign before they decided it against it now. Either way the power would still be in Britain's hands to reject it if the Government actually wanted to do so and Turkey are still a long way away from even being able to apply.

Anyway it's fair enough for Leave to use if they wish. Remain would do so it if helped them.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Anyone with any sense can see that Turkey is holding the EU to ransom as it is one of the main conduits for refugees into the EU zone.

The EU has thrown millions if not billions at Turkey to close that conduit but Turkey wants visa permits for it's citizens to travel within the Schengen zone.- Why?

Could it be that if it was allowed Turkey could get rid of it's refugee problem in a stroke?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But they do talk Britain down. By saying we need the EU for this and that is implying we couldn't do it without them. This is rubbish. Anything the EU can do, we can do just as well if not better.

Leave did make a booboo today with that veto thing and I hope it don't come back to haunt us.

---------- Post added at 17:59 ---------- Previous post was at 17:56 ----------

They wouldn't veto Turkey because they are an important strategic member of NATO. The least time they could join is about 15 years, 10 if they are fast tracked. Then prepare for a massive influx if we vote to stay. We won't get another say for 40 years or so.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Turkey applied in 1987 back in the old EEC days .Accession talks finally started in 2005 and given the immigration crisis i believe their membership will be escalated

---------- Post added at 19:01 ---------- Previous post was at 18:47 ----------

Turkey has also met 65 of the 72 requirements for visa free travel throughout the EU .In March of this year they had only met 35 ,by May they had increased the requirement to 65 so very shortly we will be seeing thousands of Turkish immigrants entering the UK ,this talk of years is quite frankly baloney

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Only if remain win.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

God forbid because right now being part of the EU is really not a good thing

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Visa free travel is just that, it's not a right to work or right to remain. It does not allow you to immigrate to an EU country.

Turkey are also very far behind the actual accession to the EU:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35832035

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Given the succession of nations, some far less suitable/ready than others, which have joined the EU over the last decade or two it beggars belief that anyone would think Turkey won't, sooner or later be admitted. A deal will be done because Turkey in the EU is what the EU wants. It's not what we should want but that probably won't stop our govt. being complicit in one way or another.

All this guff about 'tough conditions' makes me laugh - would they be conditions like those which allowed Greece and Cyprus to join the club? That went well didn't it. :rolleyes:

The EU has plenty of previous for moving the goalposts to suit itself.

As regards visa free travel - I'm sure the plethora of secure borders throughout the EU will ensure that Turks who enter the EU all go home when they should and won't at all wind up within the black economy and later seek asylum under ECHR rules. :rofl:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well they've been talking for 10 years and haven't gotten anywhere so it's can't be that easy.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Exactly :shrug:
Since when is pointing out a worrying truth "fear mongering"? :confused:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Visa free travel for turkey is still a threat to our country and probably the EU as a whole ,getting into the UK will be no problem for Turkish people once they are in Europe ,aside from that if remain campaign win we will be signed up to Schenghan so fast it will make your nose bleed ,probably the Euro as well

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Looking at your posts in this thread......I have to ask, is Brussels paying you to post here? :erm:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How easy it is will depend on leverage and right now Turkey has quite a lot being the border between the EU and chaos.

Unless you really, genuinely, believe they'll never be admitted nothing else matters, the damage will be done whether they're admitted sooner or later. The effect will be the same.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Veto obtained by treaty can just as easily be abolished by treaty and our veto has been less effective as time has gone by so having faith in that is not a sound strategy. EU membership is more about convenience for Brussels then anything we already have members who didn't actually meet the full criteria so the criteria got changed and hey hey in came new members. Once this referendum is over and pending how many if anymore take place in other nations there will be another jolly creating a new treaty and that will show us all how valued we are.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They don't need to be admitted to the club ,just through the door which will happen in June this year

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No. It's not the same thing. Visa-free travel is not free movement. It does not give right to work or right to reside.

It quite simply is not true.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Can I get a link for the information that Turkey will not become a member of the EU? and despite what the rules may be visa free travel will end up with a lot of Turks making a beeline for the UK and once here what exactly?. We already have a couple of million illegal immigrants here that we can't seem to get rid off how exactly does that situation get better by us remaining in the EU?.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Damien ,what makes you think that a lot of the newly admitted Turks will actually care about what they are allowed to do or not do once they are across the border ,we have thousands of black market workers in this country from Europe what makes you think Turkish "visitors" will be any different.
Any open border policy is a mistake ,that has been proven time and time again

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If they're going to come into the country and live and work illegally then they could do now. What difference does it make?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Because they can get in easier .Whichever way the vote goes allowing Turkey easier access to Europe is wrong

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How are they going to get into Britain easier? We still check whose coming in. If they choose to not leave that would be the same either way and since they're not an EU member they face the same checks as they otherwise would or any other nation would.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Because we are incapable of controlling our borders ,it's naive to think that allowing millions of Turks free travel into Europe ,albeit with a biometric passport ,won't cause problems for us even if we vote out .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well on that we agree. I am not a fan of borderless Europe but this particular question would not be addressed by a Leave vote, it impacts us either way.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If we leave we and we alone will be responsible for our borders and will be better able to make decisions and take measures to secure those borders not having to wait for direction from the EU or being hamstrung by EU legislation. It will give us an edge we do not have right now plus after withdrawal we will not be bound by any treaty. That's how leaving may help us in dealing with immigration, how will immigration be helped if we choose to remain?.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Erdogan and Turkey in the EU, seriously? :rolleyes: Do we know who vetoes when they announce the result? Or is it anonymous? I'd be a lot more than worried if the UK were the only country to veto Turkey with that lunatic pulling strings and their current state.

Maybe we'd benefit from some cheap oil courtesy of ISIS given it miraculously finds its way into Turkey consistently.

Its not all bad though, imagine the new ice cream stalls doing fancy tricks at your seaside town whilst lobbing a kebab round his ear.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

When in doubt, smear?

I have to ask - are Boris, IDS, and Nigel paying you to post here, or could it be that you, like Damien with his views (even though they are diametrically opposed to yours), actually believe in what you post, and it would be insulting to insinuate that you (or Damien) have ulterior motives?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The EU has one goal and this is one nation ruled by a president/prime minister that is the way they want it to go.

I've read a couple of articles about pensions to those coming over here working age or not. not sure how true it is?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Please let's not buy into the stupidity on here and question\devalue anyone's choice don't we have enough of the westminster\brussels village idiots doing that. This referendum is about what each and every citizen of the UK believes and how they feel the best interests of the UK are served in future, we don't all have to have the same belief but we must be able to respect all those who have a view. I have mine and the right to express it just as everyone else does and forums might be the only place where a civilised debate can be had so let's just debate and leave the rest out of it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

:clap::clap::clap:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Is the PM actually obliged to take us out in the event of a result in favour of us leaving?

If not and it's a very close vote to leave the EU he may say that it was so close that it's better to stay in and ask for more concessions now that the people have spoken. Maybe this would lead to a second vote afterwards??

The same argument that he needs more concessions could be made in the event of a close vote to stay in ie the electorate voted to stay in, but only just, so he has to appease them.

Either way I think that it will be a close vote

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think Cameron is bound by the referendum regardless of how close it is and if he were to pull any sort of stunt I think the consequences would be significant. As much as I hope for a clear victory either way I do think it will be very close within the so called margin of error and close enough so that whatever side loses there will be calls for a second vote. I'm not sure the UK is doing well with one vote I don't want to think about the damage another would do.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

A new week and new scare mongering from the remain side it's getting very tedious and predictable and given how fantastic the EU is apparently why can't any of these positives be pushed by remain why is it always doom and gloom which is clearly not realistic.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed. However, they could invade the jungle and overrun it. How would the Authorities cope with 5 million Turks. No one could stop them if they are allowed free movement in the Schengen area.

---------- Post added at 06:34 ---------- Previous post was at 06:17 ----------

Technically no but can you imagine he backlash from the people if he went against the referendum? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refere...United_Kingdom

---------- Post added at 06:44 ---------- Previous post was at 06:34 ----------

Yes. First the BoE Governor tells us there would be a technical recession where growth would be negative for 2 quarters if we leave the EU. Today on BBC News Cameron is saying we will be in a proper recession for at least a year. Which of them is right? If they can't agree on that then where does the truth actually lie?

TBH the forecasts coming from the Treasure since 2010 have not been exactly right. Remember they also predicted doom and gloom if we didn't join the Euro - Hell they got that wrong didn't they?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's odd how every morning I wake to hear yet another fear story from HMG via the BBC. This time the headline is a year long recession which will ensue if we dare to leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36355564

As regards Turkey, visa less travel into the EU will by defininition make things easier for Turks to come to the EU. These will include those seeking to work (illegally) or whatever for whom there'll be one less very sizeable hurdle to jump. Thanks to Schengen, once these people are inside the EU, what means is there to find and remove them or stop them eventually winding up here in the backs of lorries claiming asylum pretending to be Afghans, persecuted Kurds, or whatever? The official right to live, work or whatever isn't the only issue at stake here and I'd have thought the last thing Europe needs is another wave of uncontrolled migration. That, however, is just common sense and as we know the EU has never got around to a directive on that...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You're making stuff up now..

The Treasury information in 2003 supported Brown's decision not to join the Euro, and confirmed this in 2007.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

On the whole visa entry thing, I thought I would have a quick look. There are 56 countries outside of the EU, EEA and British Protectorates whose citizens can enter the country without a visa. See here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_p...United_Kingdom

In return, UK citizens have the right to enter 157 countries without a visa (or can get a visa on entry) See here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_r...itish_citizens

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Absolutely spot on.

Come on to both sides, give me reasons to support you as opposed to reasons not to support your opponents.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I suspect that when you analyse it properly you will find very little difference in the positives on both sides. It is easier to pick arguments in your opponents case.

I suggest tossing a coin to determine which side you vote for. :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And before that they didn't.

However, the others did and they were wrong.

---------- Post added at 13:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:00 ----------

My mind was made up in 1975 and I've seen no reason to change it in 2016 so will be voting Leave accordingly. In fact, it's worse than then especially economically and with the mass migration as well as the fact that what we are in now is not what we signed up to in 1975. Not long now till the Postal Papers arrive. Bring it on!

You want facts? The EU we are in now is NOT what we voted to remain in, in 1975

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Link, please?

Considering the Euro was only introduced in 1999, there wasn't much time before that...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Do Turkey and the others know that they are not going to be able to join? As things stand, it isn't a question of whether they are allowed to join, but when.

There are ongoing accession negotiations. It seems the ONLY countries doing any vetoing are Cyprus(southern) and France.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think that we should all remember that "Dave's Deal" is only couched in general principles at present and that there will need to be further discussion with the other 27 leaders to finalise the details.

It's possible at this stage that any advantages supposedly gained could be edited out or indeed the other leaders could throw out out the deal altogether.

This would mean that that those voting to remain will have been deceived into staying and that the requirement for the UK to become part of a federal Europe will still be on the cards.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My we are cynical... ;)











:gpoint:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It could be that I'm being realistic. ;)

We'll only really know for sure if the Remain camp win.

Unfortunately, if I'm right it will be too late to do anything.

Not long to wait now.

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out!!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'd bank on it. It's not just supposition - our experience of the EU to date would back that up. Move the goalposts, change the rules, anything to ensure the behemoth isn't put off course.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Personally, since both sides seem to be ramping up the FUD* factor, I think that most undecided voters will mistrust the information from both sides.

Quite a few undecideds I have spoken to are probably going to vote "Out" for one reason - immigration; by that, I mean controlled immigration, like countries such as Canada, NZ, Oz, etc. At the moment, it would appear the UK must accept anyone from the EU, and most people I know don't think that's acceptable. They find comments by Brexiteers like Gove who says five million Turks are coming to be fairly laughable (much like the 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians Nigel Farage said were coming here), but they see a slow drip, drip, drip gradually wearing down our services.

They're not being racist - they don't want unskilled people from any country, including our old colonies, coming here.

*FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

NOBODY said 29 million WOULD come here. It said that 29m would be ALLOWED to, and that is correct, whichever way you look at it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Actually, what he said was that 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians may come here - the Earth may get destroyed by an mile-wide asteroid, but our politicians don't base their policies on that assumption... :dozey:

What he actually said

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No we don't necessarily need policies to deal with 29m but unless we have some idea how many might/will come how on Earth can we expect our infrastructure to keep up? Why oh why wasn't a cap allowed beyond which any member state could opt out of free movement and shut the gates? Surely that would assist any planning and reduce the risk of vast numbers coming in over relatively short periods. Given that doing anything significant within London, in particular, takes years and involves huge disruption and expense, the prospect that its population can just carry on growing, as Khan supports, is frightening.

The EU will never allow us to control the numbers of EU citizens who can come here and the fact that there was no movement at all on this, despite the widely stated claim that the EU could swing to the right, destabilise or even implode if the UK leaves, says it all really. The Brussels elite would apparently rather risk the entire project than compromise on free movement. Such utter arrogance and intransigence doesn't bode well...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Is not "The opening of the doors to 29million Romanians and Bulgarians" the same as "29m would be ALLOWED to"?

There is also this to consider.

"We think Mr Farage has cut a few corners here: police intelligence isn’t the same as conviction rates; 28,000 arrests isn’t the same as 28,000 people; 7 per cent of criminal networks isn’t the same as 7 per cent of crime.

Nevertheless, we ought to say that the Ukip leader is not plucking these claims of criminality out of thin air. They are based on real statements put out by various police forces, some of whom have real concerns about the activities of Romanian wrongdoers."

Source http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...rimewave/18207

What's it going to be like with countless Turks as well?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well officially they'll make a massive net contribution and there'll be no down side whatsoever... :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The Turks are already here in Abingdon. Two Turkish barbers have opened recently and seem to be doing a roaring trade.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Excellent - one of the highlights of our annual holiday in TRNC is the visits to the Turkish barbers, for a haircut, shave, and facial cleansing/massage; we go three or four times in a fortnight (not the haircut, just the rest..).

On a more serious note, the response to my previous point highlights an issue with some Brexiteers - they will even argue with people who are going to vote the way they want them to... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You should listen to the in campaigners they even scare each other with WW3, planetary annihilation and galactic domination from alien invaders if we vote out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I was not arguing with you just pointing something out for others to digest.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You should try London there are loads of Turks (and Kurds) here... ;)

Just to reiterate, for those who might conflate the issues, not being keen to open the EU door to the whole of Turkey is not the same as hating Turkish people of whom I know quite a few personally and professionally.

Our doors shouldn't be uncontrollably open to anyone.

Anyway it seems even Sturgeon agrees about the 'overblown' nature of the 'remain' debate.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36362047

;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Got to agree with you there, I've a few Turkish friends who have been here quite a few years.

Notwithstanding, opening the borders to every Tom, Dick and Harry from Turkey is a no-no as my Turkish friends have already said.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The only problem with this referendum is the public's view on any politician after this will we care to believe what any of them say?

There has been so many stories from both sides it makes it hard to believe any future party wanting to be prime minister

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I agree. This debate has taken politics to a new low IMHO.

This is stirring up potential resentment and problems for the future, especially if the vote is close which I believe it will be.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Unfortuately you are correct.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think the "remain" will win it by a country mile.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If they do I shudder to think what will happen.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If they do then it is a decision we all have to go with.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Links are not necessary, it's experience that counts here. Look at the polls and see who are most likely to vote leave - the older generation. The same generation who voted in 1975.

It has nothing to do with the Euro and I never mentioned it.

The truth of the matter is the UK can't move without fear of infringing or breaking EU rules or laws. Policies have to be thought out very carefully in case they infringe these rules or laws and in some cases scrapped even if they would have been good for the country. Governments can and promise you the moon but they can't deliver without considering what the damned EU would do if legislation was passed. Politicians have been on Andrew Marr mentioning this. From memory, one was asked by the Prime Minister to do something and he said he couldn't as it would infringe on EU rules. The Governments would have been able to pass better legislation that would have benefited us and not the EU. Wouldn't it be better to have those decisions in our own hands?

When people talk about getting back our democracy, this is the kind of thing they are talking about, stuff like that.

Economically definitely. Again experience tells us as does common sense that all that money we send and have sent to the EU regardless of what we do or don't get back would have been better spent in the UK. Over the years we must have sent trillions to the EU. It's debatable but the National debt would be nowhere near what it is if we had not been in the EU. It's doubtful our NHS would be in the state it's in had we not had to send all that money to the EU.

Just think laterally about things and you will see the sense. There is no substitute for experience. Younger people don't know anything other than being in the EU and so have nothing to compare it with and there will be most likely to vote to stay.

We were in the crap in the 70s not because we weren't in the EEC but because the workers held the country to ransom.

Then there is the biggie and probably the most important reason to vote leave. We are in a club we did not vote to be in. We voted to be in a single market to make trade in Europe much easier and that would be fine had it stayed that way. I would probably vote in today's climate to remain if that was still the case. However, we are not in the Common Market, we are in or heading towards a Political Union. Britain can't stay in the EU for the simple reason we don't want Political Union. With Schengen that is exactly what we will get. If we stay, we will be pushed further out into the cold.

Remain talk about having a voice if we stay but the truth is the voice will get smaller the more the EU integrates.

Experience friend there is no substitute.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The newspaper of choice for pensioners says different today...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...are-deserting/
:erm:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Leave or stay it looks like a rocky road ahead for Dave and Gideon:

Linky

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What amazes me and I have to ask this question given Cameron said if he didn't get a deal that was good for the UK he'd campaign to leave the EU. He didn't get a deal though thinks he did. Fair enough but the big question here is Can he really believe what he's saying about the economy, housing, tourism, holidays, trade, etc. if he was planning to argue for leave? I guess what I'm trying to argue is. If he didn't get the deal would the crap he and remain are coming out with about the above subjects still stand?

What it tells me is they don't have a scoobie what will happen if we stay or leave. We can hazard educated guesses based on knowledge, experience and common sense and probably be right. This is one of the reasons I don't believe all the fire and brimstone they are coming out with simply because he was prepared to argue the other way.........OR WAS HE? We know he's a liar!

Those who wish to remain should be asking themselves these questions.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7043681.html

Now that was what occurred to me when I watched the political broadcast last night on behalf of the Leave campaign..Not impressed at all.

Only one actual fact was mentioned and others so obviously left out and the rest was just insinuation..I need more than this to convince me.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

May I ask, in the politest terms possible, why a lady of your age and experience needs 'convincing? Surely, there is enough information available to you and it is simply a matter of sifting the wheat from the chaff?

In 1975, the vote was to join the European Economic Community; it was a trade arrangement. No-one in this Country, until 23 June 2016, will vote to be in or out of the European Union which is an entirely different beast.

Out is the only choice for anyone who has thought this through.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I remember Lawson saying that very well. It's been a stick used in elections indeed and still is. However, I know, and any sensible Leave voter will or should know there won't be £350 m per week to spend on anything, it is more likely to be half that but it's still a hell of a lot of candy over a year and even more, the lifetime of a Parliament. Some of the £350 m would have to be used on trade agreements with the EU.

The NHS is actually the envy of the world.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I want everyone to have ALL the facts..then it's truly a democratic decision made by the informed..Oh and I don't like the nation being lied to by BOTH sides.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well, sadly, I think you can forget all that so it's either vote according to your conscience based on what you 'know' or don't bother.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I call it as I see it :)[/QUOTE]

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm afraid you are never going to get that. However, use your judgement and think to yourself 'COULD' whatever both sides say happen and weigh up the pros and cons. All they do is give you the worse case scenarios. What happens could be the total opposite. I mean I thought of this.

The EU won't slap tariffs on us as they want our trade.
The EU won't slap prices on holidays as they want our tourism.
How can being in or out of the EU effect house prices?
We'll get our fishing waters back thus creating jobs and cheaper fish.
The NHS won't be drained. Those living and working here will be entitled to stay.
Last week we were told leaving would cause a technical recession by remain. This week they tell us it will be a full blown recession.
People living in the EU won't be booted out or have to sell up to come home. The EU need them.

There's loads more your common sense should tell you. No they not facts, just logic.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You have lived through the years that have seen the metamorphosis of the EEC into the EU. You have witnessed the change to your way of life and you can make a reasoned judgement on the prospects for the future.

Whatever you decide, I can't see how you can be any better informed in your decision than you are now. You enjoy the added benefit of experience.

People who decide on the toss of a coin do disservice to democracy (I'm not saying this is you; it is a separate comment on the waverers who ought to be able to make up their minds by now IMHO).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It is perfectly reasonable and right that people should have facts to help them make a choice and if we had a decent political class whose main goal was serving the interests of the people and nation we might have had those facts. What we have ended up with partly because of us the public is a bunch of selfish individuals many bought and paid for chasing their agendas as told to them by their paymasters or just doing what benefits them personally with no care or concern for either the people or the nation.

The UK is a fine nation with predominately fine people but our elected representatives are of the lowest calibre that I can remember and they have turned this referendum into an embarrassing farce that will do nothing but damage to the UK. I didn't vote in the 70's as I wasn't old enough but my vote is decided not so much on the past although that has been a factor but on what I believe will happen in the future given the course the EU is on. I'm voting with my kids future in mind as they will be the one's that suffer and pay in future and I'll likely be a pile of ash in 10 years so that's my reasoning.

Whatever the vote we the public must not make the mistake of the past and forget the conduct of our politicians we need a new group of politicians and get rid of the current lot as they have demonstrated they are incapable of doing what needs to be done. Whether we are in or out of the EU we need strength in our representatives to get what's best we clearly don't have that at the minute.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

More Reality checks:

The claim: Leaving the European Union would create a year-long recession.

Reality Check verdict: The Treasury analysis gives two scenarios, described as "shock" and "severe shock". Both point to a recession in the short term, but in the case of the lesser "shock" scenario, while there would be an impact on the economy, the predicted recession would be very mild and well within the bounds of forecasting uncertainty.

The claim: Iain Duncan Smith says that more than three quarters of the rise in employment in the last year has come from people born abroad.

Reality Check verdict: The latest figures support this. You could also look at the number of non-UK nationals (rather than everyone born abroad, which includes British citizens). They account for 56% of the rise.

The claim: Membership of the European Union guarantees rights on equal pay, sexual harassment and maternity leave, and rights for part-time workers. Those rights would be in jeopardy if Britain voted to leave.

Reality Check Verdict: The EU has been influential in the development of equality legislation but leaving would not necessarily mean those rights would be lost.

Claim: The European Union is so corrupt that the European Court of Auditors has not signed off its accounts for 20 years.

Reality Check verdict: The Court of Auditors has signed the EU accounts every year since 2007, while pointing out that EU countries, once they receive the EU funds, misuse about 4.4% of the total budget.

---------- Post added at 15:03 ---------- Previous post was at 15:01 ----------

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

pip, apologies if you thought I was referring to you.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Shame of Prime Minister and Chancellor who think Britain incapable of standing on its own

Dodgy Dave and Armagideon have lost their street cred

DAVID Cameron and George Osborne have been ridiculed for “straightforwardly ludicrous” claims Britain couldn’t stand on its own two feet if it left the EU.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-own-EU-Brexit

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You bring logic to the discussion, so let me answer this particular point logically. It's logical that if the voice we have in the EU (assuming we remain) gets smaller the more the EU integrates, then it will be smaller still if we leave.

In the meantime , we will be competing internationally with an organisation consisting of many more people than live in our country, and counts countries with some of the largest economies in the the world as members. Do you, or any other member promoting leaving the EU seriously contend we can compete with that?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

David and Goliath. Have faith :).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I seem to recall Cameron saying, before his 'tough renegotiations', that of course the UK could survive and be strong outside the EU and he'd rule nothing out if he didn't get his way. Given all the dire warnings they've since issued about life (or death even, via WWIII) outside the EU and the minimal concessions he managed to get, it rather gives the impression that they were committed to staying in no matter what the outcome of those talks was. Their scaremongering has been such that you have to ask what the EU could have done (or refused to do) which could possibly have forced him decide that the plethora of terrible risks associated with leaving were acceptable because the alternative (i.e. staying in) was worse. It was never going to happen was it and all that stuff about tough negotiations to get what was best for the UK was wholly disingenuous.

If one argument is that it's vital for European security that we stay in, why would the EU not have every incentive to ensure that, if we did leave, whatever (if any) new measures and agreements were required were urgently put in place to avoid any undue damage to security. Are they really saying that's impossible, that they'd suddenly stop sharing information etc? Why would something so vital that they reckon is in everyone's interests be sacrificed unless it's a case of punishing the UK and, by their own admission, themselves in the process. :confused:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

it seems he did say we could survive and thrive until his u turn
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/673...u-turn-footage

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Stuart there will be a period of time where trade may be impacted it's by no means a certainty at this point and the strength of the EU that you highlight is also it's weakness as despite multiple economies they all have to sing from the same sheet severely restraining some. Being out means the UK would be able to be much more dynamic in it's approach to trade and foreign investment as well as tailor things to the requirements of various markets as needed which is everything the EU isn't.

There is no rosy scenario here whether we leave or stay short term but in the medium to longer term leaving puts the uk in a better position. Add to that if we leave I don't think there will be an EU within 10 years the UK may well be the first domino in the collapse of the EU, already France is starting to ask for a similar referendum and Germans are not happy either. Our biggest problem is in or out of the EU the UK needs a strength in politician we clearly don't have to obtain the best for the UK and if we vote out I can see Cameron being quite petty and not even trying to get the best for us.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No worries Hugh:D.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Perhaps I should have said smaller within the EU?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Wow, as if WWIII, national security, workers' rights, house prices, the value of Sterling blah, blah, blah, wasn't enough, now if we leave our European holidays will cost more according to the PM. Well if all their other predictions of gloom come to pass that'd be the last thing we'll need to be worried about won't it. My God they really are scraping the barrel. This is getting ludicrous.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Wouldn't want to go to Europe for my hols anyway cos it'll be overrun with terrorists thanks to their open borders

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It is also logical to suggest that as the EU exports millions of pounds worth of goods/services to us that they would not wish to lose that trade and would seek a trade deal in the event of Brexit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Isn't it a bit simpler than that though? will we have to negotiate with the big scary EU as a whole or will we simply have to negotiate with the various countries to get the goods we want?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

UK already complies with EU regulations so trading with the EU shouldn't be too big an issue unless politicians make it so and sadly that can't be ruled out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The jobs as good as done.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...are-deserting/
No need for Dave and George to keep on with the histrionics. As predicted the undecideds and many Brexiters are switching to Remain as polling day approaches. I suspect this would have happened even without Project Fear. The British love a whinge but when faced with the reality of what it would mean to them personally, they soon change their minds. I'm predicting a landslide 60/40 for remain.
All an utter waste of time, to pander to the vocal minority of right wing swivel eyed loons.
Still at least it'll be the end of Dave and a Tory civil war. There's always a silver lining ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

well there's nothing like a good winning speech - and that was nothing like one:rofl::rofl::rofl:

---------- Post added at 21:59 ---------- Previous post was at 21:41 ----------

David Cameron 'could face no-confidence vote by his own MPs over handling of EU referendum'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7044431.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We can cope fine without a voice in the EU if we leave. Hell, Cameron had to fight tooth and nail to get VAT on tampons reduced and it looks like that decision will be reversed anyway! :rolleyes:

Yes! Because we are the 5th largest economy in the world.....out of 196 countries in the world.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Slow echo in here......

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Mr K I hate to stomp on your stereotyping but I'm not right wing by any stretch and I want out of the EU as do many and given that the only thing lower in quality then our media are our politicians I wouldn't be shouting victory just yet.