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-   -   In Defense of the Marriage (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=7273)

Sociable 12-02-2004 14:52
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuartbe
How is it mob rule m8 ???? If the majority of people in a country say yes to something then it should be yes.... That is what democracy is !
Not as simple as that stuart and I would refer back to my earlier post:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sociable
Next we come to the Law makers themselves and I find it somewhat quaint that some still believe the way they operate is †œdemocraticÃƒà ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚à ‚. Many decisions by parliament have little to do with reflecting the views of the majority and in fact there are some very valid reasons for this.

The first is that MPâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s are charged with making decisions based on the detailed knowledge they have of the often complex issues involved. Part of their role is also standing up for the minority against the will of the majority when this is seen to be both fair and just.
The notion of a referendum on each and every law is completely unworkable for so many reasons but perhaps best illustrated by a few movies that have actually used this concept to great comedic effect.

Some issues need far more considered thought than a simple telephone poll and judgements need to be based on having access to detailed and informed opinions too.

Yes the Will of the majority is a factor but it should never be the only factor. This is a point you yourself will find comforting should you ever find yourself as part of a minority group at some time.

dr wadd 12-02-2004 14:52
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrek
Absolutely. And, don't pretend, you've never had respect for anyone that doesn't agree with you. In fact, you're openly displaying hostility towards people that are religious and base their decisions on that. Get over it. That is why we left Europe. No freedom!
Well, there is someone on this forum (who shall remain nameless as I don`t want to drag them in), who disagreed with one of my arguments in a different thread on a religious topic. They got a green rep point from me as I considered their comeback argument to be bang on the money in terms of a logical attack on the comment I was making. I think that demonstrates the fact that I can respect someone who has a viewpoint that is different to my own.

dr wadd 12-02-2004 14:54
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrek
So now I will end up on government welfare? No. I plan on WORKING.
Why don`t you actually read other people's posts before replying? It was never said that you will end up on welfare. The sad fact is that many people plan on working, but it doesn`t guarantee that there will be jobs out there for them, and there is no guarantee these days that you will be in gainful employment for the entirety of your working life.

Stuartbe 12-02-2004 14:59
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sociable
Not as simple as that stuart and I would refer back to my earlier post:




The notion of a referendum on each and every law is completely unworkable for so many reasons but perhaps best illustrated by a few movies that have actually used this concept to great comedic effect.

Some issues need far more considered thought than a simple telephone poll and judgements need to be based on having access to detailed and informed opinions too.

Yes the Will of the majority is a factor but it should never be the only factor. This is a point you yourself will find comforting should you ever find yourself as part of a minority group at some time.
I am not sugesting that every rule ect is decided in this way.... I am talking about voting on major isues that afect the country...

Normal everyday things will still be handled by MP's .................

In any case if there was to be a poll I am sure that all the arguments and fact would be presented to the public first...

Rememeber - This is not the governments country - It bellongs to the people that live here...

downquark1 12-02-2004 15:00
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Absolutely. And, don't pretend, you've never had respect for anyone that doesn't agree with you. In fact, you're openly displaying hostility towards people that are religious and base their decisions on that. Get over it. That is why we left Europe. No freedom!
So your idea of freedom is to deny minorities from voting or marriage. Oh well, Orthodox Christians wanting freedom can move to the US and the homosexuals/unemployed can move to Europe.

Democracy is both a curse and a blessing, unfair for minorities etc. That's why the US formed the constitution, but it seems it isn't working.

Stuartbe 12-02-2004 15:04
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1
So your idea of freedom is to deny minorities from voting or marriage. Oh well, Orthodox Christians wanting freedom can move to the US and the homosexuals/unemployed can move to Europe.

Democracy is both a curse and a blessing, unfair for minorities etc. That's why the US formed the constitution, but it seems it isn't working.
Is it possible to please all of the people all of the time ???

Bifta 12-02-2004 15:04
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrek
Yes. Absolutely. They are not productive in society, so why have them decide? They will just vote who will give them the most free money.

I am intrigued that you don't object to waddy's arbitrary assignment of votes based on who agrees with him, but me wanting to exclude non-productive people from voting gets the attention.
So let's see, you'd like to see the following people discounted from voting.

1) People on disability allowance who are unable to work
2) People who may have worked most of their life (and contributed more to their country than you) who suddenly find themselves out of work through no fault of their own and having to rely on benefits
3) The elderly who draw state pensions (after all, now they've worked all their life what rights should you rednecks let them have?)
4) People actively seeking work but are unable to find anything
5) Students (a lot of them claim housing benefit)
6) People with a few children that claim family allowance

the lists goes on, the main thing they have in common is that they all claim some form of "welfare" payment from the state, the other common denominator is that they all have a RIGHT to vote.

You're beginning to paint a rather unrosey picture of yourself.

downquark1 12-02-2004 15:08
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuartbe
Is it possible to please all of the people all of the time ???
No but to deliberately deny a minority something for no good reason is bigotry.

downquark1 12-02-2004 15:10
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bifta
So let's see, you'd like to see the following people discounted from voting.

1) People on disability allowance who are unable to work
2) People who may have worked most of their life (and contributed more to their country than you) who suddenly find themselves out of work through no fault of their own and having to rely on benefits
3) The elderly who draw state pensions (after all, now they've worked all their life what rights should you rednecks let them have?)
4) People actively seeking work but are unable to find anything
5) Students (a lot of them claim housing benefit)
6) People with a few children that claim family allowance

the lists goes on, the main thing they have in common is that they all claim some form of "welfare" payment from the state, the other common denominator is that they all have a RIGHT to vote.

You're beginning to paint a rather unrosey picture of yourself.
Maybe you should make a spin-off thread

dr wadd 12-02-2004 15:10
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bifta
You're beginning to paint a rather unrosey picture of yourself.
Beginning? I think he has got to the point where is is waiting for the signature to dry while picking out a frame.

Bifta 12-02-2004 15:11
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr wadd
Beginning? I think he has got to the point where is is waiting for the signature to dry while picking out a frame.
:rofl:

Bifta 12-02-2004 15:12
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1
Maybe you should make a spin-off thread
You're probably right ...

Ramrod 12-02-2004 15:17
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bifta
So let's see, you'd like to see the following people discounted from voting.

1) People on disability allowance who are unable to work
2) People who may have worked most of their life (and contributed more to their country than you) who suddenly find themselves out of work through no fault of their own and having to rely on benefits
3) The elderly who draw state pensions (after all, now they've worked all their life what rights should you rednecks let them have?)
4) People actively seeking work but are unable to find anything
5) Students (a lot of them claim housing benefit)
6) People with a few children that claim family allowance
Conditions 2 and 4 I have a problem with. There is always work is there not? You can walk into McD's and start work tomorrow (as I have done in the past to avoid going on the dole) The problem is that certain people don't want to do certain jobs. But we digress.....sorry :)

Jerrek 12-02-2004 15:24
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
edit: moved to separate thread before I derail this thread

dr wadd 12-02-2004 15:25
Re: In Defense of the Marriage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
Conditions 2 and 4 I have a problem with. There is always work is there not? You can walk into McD's and start work tomorrow (as I have done in the past to avoid going on the dole) The problem is that certain people don't want to do certain jobs. But we digress.....sorry :)
But if you are close to retirement age there is always the risk that they won`t take you on. Things are slowly getting better but there is still a fair amount of discrimination against older people in this country. Another possibility is that they have had to leave work to become a carer.

I can see where you are coming from, but I think there are shades of grey in respect to conditions 2 and 4.


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