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nomadking 27-11-2021 09:42
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36102819)
Exactly. As the boss of Octopus Energy commented, power companies should be obliged to purchase power in advance to match the fixed tariffs they charge customers. Otherwise, they will be caught out by upswings in prices.

The price cap might be an issue for all power companies in the future if it is not increased but the likes of Bulb acquired customers with multi-year fixed tariffs. They do not have many legacy customers on variable rates like the incumbent power companies British Gas or Scottish Power do.

---------- Post added at 02:54 ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 ----------


The issue is that some of the newer companies did not buy their fuel in advance. This was ok when wholesale prices were falling but was a one-way bet when they rose. Compare Bulb to Octopus and you'll understand why one exists without subsidy and why the other has been effectively nationalised.
Octopus is not just an energy company, and so has additional resources available from other parts of the group. In specialising in renewable energy it has taken away the availability of renewable energy from others. It is not subject to the real world of energy generation using gas, which is the source of the problems. Germany has learnt that you can't rely on renewable energy. That is a part of why their increased demand pushed up gas prices.
If Octopus didn't rely on renewables, then they also would be in trouble.
No valid comparison can be made.

ianch99 27-11-2021 10:23
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36102831)
Indeed, and I am a paid up Conservative. The water sector is a disgrace because there is no competition that I can find.
I'm worried, we've agreed again :)

As for Water, England's privatised water firms have paid out £57bn in dividends since 1991, just under half what they spent on the infrastructure. They also borrow and use the debt to finance dividends. A disgrace ..

Inactive Digital 27-11-2021 10:30
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36102796)
Which only shows what happens when you apply free market dogma to national infrastructure services. When companies that are motivated by profit and shareholder returns are created in an artificial "free" market, it can never end well. The same story is seen in the water sector where it is probably worse.
If energy was nationalised, its highly unlikely there would be a price cap. Millions of people would be paying prices reflective of the wholesale costs right now.

What we're currently seeing is akin to an extension of the welfare system paid for by the private sector. Energy suppliers are forced by government to subsidise customer bills by having to sell at a loss. It is not sustainable in the long term unless the price cap is brought into line with wholesale costs, which then inflicts more pain on customers. If that doesn't happen, I'd imagine we'll see some of the 'big six' (or is it five now?) reviewing their operations in the UK.

Successive governments have failed on energy policy. The UK needs to become more self-sufficient. The £1.7bn put aside for Bulb could have been spent on helping households reduce their reliance on fossil fuels.

Carth 27-11-2021 10:38
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Well with the weather today we should be absolutely flying with the energy produced by wind turbines . . unless of course the wind is too strong and they shut down.

Nothing to do with gas companies, sorry, just thought it worth a mention as I watched next doors caravan trying to mount his garden shed.

Taf 27-11-2021 10:38
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
So a few companies bought stocks in advance. That was presumably based on their existing customer base.

So will their stocks dwindle quickly now that they have been taking on customers from the failed companies? And what happens when they have to buy new stock at the massively inflated prices? Will the April change of the cap level reflect wholesale prices?

papa smurf 27-11-2021 11:14
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36102849)
Well with the weather today we should be absolutely flying with the energy produced by wind turbines . . unless of course the wind is too strong and they shut down.

Nothing to do with gas companies, sorry, just thought it worth a mention as I watched next doors caravan trying to mount his garden shed.
According to my supplier 100% of my electricity is from renewables, we are surrounded by wind farms yet the price keeps going up,how much has a cubic metre of wind gone up in price :shrug:

nomadking 27-11-2021 11:16
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36102846)
I'm worried, we've agreed again :)

As for Water, England's privatised water firms have paid out £57bn in dividends since 1991, just under half what they spent on the infrastructure. They also borrow and use the debt to finance dividends. A disgrace ..
Where people invest in a company, they expect to get their money back. The invested money is NOT a gift, never to be returned.:rolleyes:
Debt is used to obtain large amounts in advance. Just as it is for households with mortgages and the like.
Quote:
Anglian Water said it was incorrect to say debt was being used to pay dividends. “Financing though debt is the most cost-effective and legitimate way to fund new infrastructure. Customers benefit: bills are cheaper. This is why we do it.”
Quote:
It said investors had not taken a dividend payment since 2018. However, according to the company’s annual report, dividends totalling £67.8m were paid in the financial year to the end of March 2019.
When this was put to Anglian, a spokesperson said: “The £67.8 referred to as a dividend was retained within Anglian Water Group and used to finance group operating costs and working capital needs … which I appreciate wasn’t clear from the wording used [in the annual report].”
Quote:
Thames Water said its shareholders were in it for the long term and had not taken a dividend payment for three years. “We invested more than £1bn again in 2019-20, leading to a total of £15bn in the past 15 years.
Quote:
This article was amended on 3 July 2020 to include clarification below a chart showing Anglian Water as having paid £5bn in dividends to shareholders in the past decade. The overall Anglian Water Group said £3.5bn of this was, rather, internal fund transfers from the water and sewerage company to the parent company; dividends totalled £1.5bn. On 10 July, the text clarification was removed, after the chart itself was revised to show £1.5bn.
The figures are misleading because the listed companies can or did, include other areas, eg United Utilities once included electricity, so dividends will have also been for that.

Carth 27-11-2021 11:30
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36102856)
Where people invest in a company, they expect to get their money back. The invested money is NOT a gift, never to be returned.:rolleyes:
Debt is used to obtain large amounts in advance. Just as it is for households with mortgages and the like.

. . . and football clubs.
I think they call it 'sustainable debt' or some such thing, which seems to work fine until the 'incoming' reaches a level below the 'outgoing' . . . or the 'investors' decide they want to put their money into something else instead, please can we have it back . . and I think we've all, over the years, seen the consequences of that in football.

Paul 27-11-2021 13:30
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36102855)
According to my supplier 100% of my electricity is from renewables, we are surrounded by wind farms yet the price keeps going up,how much has a cubic metre of wind gone up in price :shrug:
Thats an interesting bit of spin that they all tell you, its not really true.
The company you pay has zero control over where the electricity you are actually using comes from, thats controlled by the National Grid.

Each house is not on a separate supply thats controlled by Bulb/Octopus/Whoever.

Carth 27-11-2021 14:22
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36102898)
Thats an interesting bit of spin that they all tell you, its not really true.
The company you pay has zero control over where the electricity you are actually using comes from, thats controlled by the National Grid.

Each house is not on a separate supply thats controlled by Bulb/Octopus/Whoever.
Yep, makes me laugh . . as does the Google homepage, the bit at the bottom that says "Carbon neutral since 2007"

Paul 27-11-2021 15:47
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
This site is quite informative on where the UKs electricity is coming from ;

https://grid.iamkate.com/

ianch99 27-11-2021 16:39
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36102856)
Where people invest in a company, they expect to get their money back
Yes, if this company was trading in a free market but it is not.

As for the Thames Water spin:

Water companies turn back on pledge to not pay dividends/

Quote:
Some of Britain’s largest water companies have given away hundreds of millions of pounds to shareholders in recent years, despite promises to stop paying dividends.

Southern Water, Thames Water and Yorkshire Water all promised to stop paying dividends to shareholders, after watchdog Ofwat told them to invest in more infrastructure and cut bills.

However, the Sunday Times reported today that the trio had continued to give out hundreds of millions of pounds in dividends in order to service debt obligations.

Thames has paid out £115m over the past two years, while Southern handed out £152.1m in the same time period.

1andrew1 28-11-2021 13:50
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36102838)
Octopus is not just an energy company, and so has additional resources available from other parts of the group. In specialising in renewable energy it has taken away the availability of renewable energy from others. It is not subject to the real world of energy generation using gas, which is the source of the problems. Germany has learnt that you can't rely on renewable energy. That is a part of why their increased demand pushed up gas prices.
If Octopus didn't rely on renewables, then they also would be in trouble.
No valid comparison can be made.
Fumdamentally flawed assumptions. Octopus is a dual fuel company so buys and sells electricity and gas like its peers, so faces the same challenges. It's been better at Bulb by doing what competitors like Shell Energy have done - buying energy in advance to match customers' tariffs.
Octopus has a small sideline in renting electric vehicles, Bulb has a small sideline in billing software. Neither is significant.

nomadking 28-11-2021 14:14
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36103309)
Fumdamentally flawed assumptions. Octopus is a dual fuel company so buys and sells electricity and gas like its peers, so faces the same challenges. It's been better at Bulb by doing what competitors like Shell Energy have done - buying energy in advance to match customers' tariffs.
Octopus has a small sideline in renting electric vehicles, Bulb has a small sideline in billing software. Neither is significant.
Octopus Energy is part of the Octopus Group. Their electricity is sourced from renewables, not gas generated.
Quote:
Octopus remains majority owned by Octopus Group, the £9bn UK investor in energy, technology and growth businesses. Octopus is the UK’s largest investor in solar energy, and has recently announced Australia’s largest solar farm.
Where did Shell Energy get the money from, if not the Shell Group? Easy if you have rich "parents".

ianch99 28-11-2021 14:19
Re: Energy companies collapse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36103316)
Octopus Energy is part of the Octopus Group. Their electricity is sourced from renewables, not gas generated.
Where did Shell Energy get the money from, if not the Shell Group? Easy if you have rich "parents".
Pure Planet were 24% owned by BP but it didn't help them.


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