Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don't really think the point was for Nando's to run out of chicken.

British businesses do indeed need to adjust, as does the British consumer to lower choice and higher prices. I'm the last person to go in and bat for unrestricted capitalism - but I don't really remember that being a "selling point" of Brexit.

As someone who thinks some political movements you oppose need to present exhaustive business cases for speculative economic manoeuvres it's odd that you seem to dismiss the legitimate concerns - dare I say democratic concerns - of a public who don't subscribe do your ideological opposition to the EU.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

These are hardly the legitimate concerns of a public who don’t subscribe etc. These are the lobbyings of arch-capitalists who don’t like being cut off from their cheap labour supply and are agitating to get it back, despite being well aware, well in advance, that what carried Brexit was, in part, opposition to the unrestricted immigration of nationals from EU member states, with all the consequences that entailed for the communities most affected.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don't want to go down the "that wasn't on the side of a bus" route but your implication is that employers pay higher wages, and pay greater amount in training and retention of employees instead of import them. Again, a noble cause for Britain and others to not exploit poor countries by taking their highest skilled employees for our lowest wages.

However I really don't remember this being part of the compelling case that was made.

I don't see how it is possible to dismiss economics as a legitimate concern of the public as a whole. Inflation (higher wages, and cost of goods) has consequences. Lower amounts left over for discretionary spend, potential for higher interest rates, negative equity etc in the long run. This isn't solely a big business looking to top out their dividends scenario. And even if it was - isn't that glorious capitalism? They'll then reinvest that, etc etc nonsense I don't subscribe to anyway.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think the point of Brexit from the literature I saw was to stop 100m Turks moving to the UK and for the UK to save £350m a week on funding the UK.

I don't recall seeing anything about better salaries for the lower paid and increased food costs. Indeed, the latter would have been rejected as Project Fear if anyone had mentioned it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well this is the thing is was a bit all things to all people.

And that's democracy, just enough to make a majority.

It's odd that the distinction only seems to be for Scotland who, by any measure going, if they left would leave England better off!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm not so sure on some of what you say, I'm sure the 'arch-capitalists' were and still are aware at the demise of cheap labour, the issue is that the unemployed Brits will not or cannot perform these roles for the salaries offered.

Now, it would be very easy at this point to simply say 'well, raise the salaries of these roles' but this then would us lead us down an interesting economic path.

A very simplistic view says you either make UK people take these roles. Or, you have to get cheap labour from somewhere

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just got a box of chicken wings from Aldi £1.49 KG and some peri peri coating from Heron 30p, crisis averted brexit is saved ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not because of Brexit:

Daft bloody app causing more problems than covid or Brexit.:rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well, you either believe the pro-Brexit Sun or you believe the companies in the sector. From the Sky News article.

---------- Post added at 10:55 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------

:D:D:D
I reckon Farage owes you a pint.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I presume/assume/guess this means . .

They have no problems with live chickens being transported to the sites.
They have no worker shortage issues on the sites.
They have no problems with finished products being transported out of the sites.

Probably just Nando's then . . or are McDonald's, KFC, Burger King etc keeping quiet about a shortage?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

it's Brexit's chickens who have come home to roost, not the cows. ;)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58180308

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It’s amazing just how desperate you are to paint a picture of a crisis Andrew. You must be gutted that the world didn’t end when Brexit became reality … I can think of no other reason for your obsessive raking through the news day by day looking for stuff that might reassure you that you weren’t completely wrong.

Chickens … for pity’s sake. It’s trivial even now. Once business gets used to the new environment in supply, logistics and HR it will seem laughable. I’d go so far as to suggest that many smaller, nimbler businesses are laughing even now.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:clap:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The biggest problem in logistics at the moment is the severe lack of HGV drivers. That shortage is not only UK-wide, but Europe-wide and world-wide.
The "pingdemic" is a result of people spending too long in close contact, with somebody who has tested positive, who in turn has spent too long in close contact with somebody who has actually passed the virus on.
It's not a case of nobody passing the virus on. At least one of the 3 people in the chain has passed it on. It demonstrates transmission of the virus is still occurring.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Some in the industry would disagree there
https://www.poultryworld.net/Meat/Ar...upply-782238E/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm glad I'm not a chicken eater then :D

I used to be, many years ago, but a visit to a chick farm and a processing site cured me of that ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

These vacancies haven't just appeared... they've been needing staff across agriculture and food processing for months. Why would the british public who appear to have made it clear that they dont want to do this type of work
suddenly say 'oh, go on then....' never mind that most people wouldn't pass their HGV licence....

Brexit IS PARTIALLY to blame for what we're seeing at the moment.

You can't just implement higher wages for obvious economic reasons.

Unless you're going to substantially reform the benefits system so it acts as a safety net rather than as a lifestyle choice as it does to a section of claimants the only choice is to import labour into the country

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nandos have stated there are no supply problems on the island of Ireland so make of that what you will.
It will be interesting to see how this turns out t - more automation, higher wages, seasonal labour quotas or more imports, etc.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Totally agree, but, it's my belief that were going to see more and more issues coming to the fore as a result of Brexit.

Obviously, I will stand corrected in my orthopaedic shoes should i be wrong

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don’t think you will be proved wrong. I believe that our membership of the EU led to chronic structural deficiencies in the skills of British workers and the pay and benefits on offer to them. We have taken the ripping-off-a-plaster approach to remedying that, because the whole Brexit process, especially that part of it handled by the traitorous remainer parliament of 2017-2019, reduced trust in the process to absolute zero. There was simply no credible way of implementing a longer transition that would not have been seen (rightly, in my view) as a smoke screen for the permanent retention of EU writ.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That’s a very nice soap box political statement l,
BUT like most brexiteers you’re failing to provide a viable solution.

You know fine well that wages can’t just be increased.
Force U.K. unemployed to take those roles ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Lower the damn benefits they get . . even Robin Hood didn't go this far

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why should the people who wanted us to be in the position we are in be requested to provide a solution to the position we are in?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Quite true, it's much easier to knock something than provide a solution :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Quite true, it’s much easier to avoid the responsibility for one’s actions than provide a solution… ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well, that opens a hole new can of worms in terms of innocent dependents

So in Middlesbrough one of the most deprived areas in the country SWMBO is an ops director for a company who try to get people who have been on UC for over a year back into work.

They have over a hundred vacancies which no one will take in places like
recycling plants etc. Guess who used to do these roles ? Hint, it wasn’t brits….

---------- Post added at 21:04 ---------- Previous post was at 21:02 ----------

You can’t make it up, it’s almost bidenesque

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Does anyone ask why people won't take those jobs?
Are they zero contract agency jobs by any chance?
Are people getting more on benefits than the jobs would pay?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The recycling centre roles are FTE paying min wage. They don’t want to take the roles here because it’s dirty smelly nasty work

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Stop their benefits then, or get the 'employer' to up the wages, simple.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So not full time then.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

FTE is I believe Full Time Employment?

. . or mebbe not, it gets confusing . . .

edit: after doing some reading, it appears Pip is probably correct, you learn something every day :dunce:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

FTE is Full Time Equivalent, which is similar to pro rata - they’re indicating what you would earn if you were doing full-time hours. Basically it’s a way of making the headline salary for a part time job look more attractive on a job advert.

---------- Post added at 22:00 ---------- Previous post was at 21:53 ----------

Apprenticing routes out of school and ending the obsession with everyone going to university would be the start of a long-term fix.

Yes, also look closely at the way Universal Credit works and ensure it’s not subsidising indolence. To be honest simply implementing UC is a major step forwards. The Tax Credits system was so wide open to abuse it was insane.

In the shorter term I believe we will find out just how difficult it has really been to fill certain vacancies once we get out of covid and once British employers come to terms with the fact that they have to try harder. I’m not convinced many of them have accepted that yet - hence the whiny press releases pleading with el gov to reopen the immigration floodgates.

A wage-price spiral is not inevitable. Inflation is well under control at present and interest rates are still through the floor. The Bank of England has got plenty of room to manoeuvre when the time comes.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes I stand corrected (see above).

I'd guess at least 85% of the current UK vacancies are of a similar status.


*subsidising indolence* cracking phrase :tu:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I read the popular websites like many others, I'll post something I found of interest. It could be the latest GERS data, it could be about a radio station in Sheffield or it could be Brexit or TV changes.
The chicken topic been a great debate and I've enjoyed reading everyone's contributions to it. Your keen interest and colourful contributions to the debate suggest more than a passing interest, and that's all to the good as far as I'm concerned.

---------- Post added at 23:18 ---------- Previous post was at 23:09 ----------

Apprenticeships are growing with a levy on employers with a wage bill over £3m now but on the other hand, the government is abolishing BTEC qualifications.
https://www.apprenticeships.gov.uk/e...p-levy-payers#
https://www.tes.com/news/lord-baker-...-act-vandalism

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Everything is always dismissed by you as trivial, chickens, shell fish, ex pats having to return, hundreds of billions draining out of our capital, roaming charges, hgv drivers, etc etc I wonder what exactly it'll take for you not to describe things as trivial, Northern Ireland leaving the Union or better yet Scotland?

I'd imagine their solution would be to rejoin and the reason that question is always demanded is because we were told leavers knew what they were voting for and any queries raised were dismissed as project fear.

When they have that many vacancies it's a full time role, probably with plenty of overtime available to

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I've not see anyone gloating, just people being critcised for mentioning anything negative which is happening. Brexit was ideological to some people so what would ever make it wrong?

My view is that Brexit is like a very slowly deflating tyre with the increased red tape making the UK less efficient. Others feel that the labour shortages will result in the country having to become more efficient. Both are valid opinions, time will tell.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They will have to help overcome the issues, gloating isn't going to pay the bills or help them thrive/ survive in their workplace. I never thought brexit wrong just that it's timing was very wrong, we should have done it 20 years ago when it would have been so much easier

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sadly that was never on the cards. 20 years ago Tony Blair was arguing round the cabinet table to take the UK into the Euro. Gordon Brown, in his one truly magnificent act in government, flat refused to agree to it. Furthermore, the erosion of sovereignty argument, though it had been made forcefully for a decade by that point, still seemed a bit esoteric to the mainstream. We really needed the not-a-constitution Lisbon treaty, and a few years for the reality of unchecked migration to be felt, to demonstrate just how much control we were losing over our own affairs. The Euro crisis was also helpful in that regard, as our contributions to the EU budget went up at short notice as other states became relatively less wealthy and saw theirs cut.

The Remainer arguments presented here are short termism in its purest form, in the same mould as the remainer commentariat claiming there was no migration crisis just because the entire population of Romania didn’t show up at Waterloo bus station one cold new year’s morning. There have been profound changes in the way things operate precisely because we were previously far more entangled than any sovereign state should be. Short-term problems aren’t denied by those of us who argued for Brexit; quite the contrary. For us they are further proof of the perils of the road we were on. It is ludicrous that we can’t pick soft fruit in our own fields without transporting hundreds of people halfway across the continent and business models that were predicated on that will simply have to change. The same goes for more skilled jobs like HGV driving. If an advanced economy thrives on a skilled workforce, then that is precisely the sort of thing we should be getting our own people in to, via in-house apprenticing. There are far too many job adverts out there from companies that are only interested in fully-qualified and experienced drivers - I.e. they only ever want to benefit from someone else’s effort investment in the driver’s skills. That’s a parasitic mindset but thankfully the reality of the new market conditions should now force it to change.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don't think anyone could have better Chris, as an aside how did all these things happen? Crops picked, deliveries made, etc. All before we joined the (then) EEC?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Oddly enough this country has been quite relaxed in the past about managed immigration to fill labour shortages. The difference (post 1945 for example) is that the shortage was demonstrably serious and chronic and not created by the supposed “solution”.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

An earlier comment that the coincidence of Brexit and Covid have magnified issues. Some could be made easier if both sides eased off a bit on Brexiting to allow all of us to sort out Covid but it's all become too confrontational.


But you would have to think about how Covid would have impacted without Brexit anyway. Would we allow eastern block nationals in if Covid was rampant back home? Would they come if they had to stay here and not return home else possibly not be able to come back?


Another comment mentioned why would you work (especially at a "nasty" job) if you are better off on benefits? An issue here is the way benefits are cut when earning. If there are hard thresholds that causes problems and it's not just reduction in income but possibly linked benefits e.g. free stuff because you are on "full" benefits. Costs involved in taking a job (travel).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ian Botham is the new trade ambassador to Australia :rofl: jobs for the boys regardless of qualification, the ruling junta rewarding chums and cronies yet again, what next Timmy Mallet becoming black rod

No what next is prisoners picking fruit according to some non entity member of this cabal, still I'm sure some will think this a good idea

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Johnson was offered a one-year extension by the EU because of Covid but chose to not accept it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It was a trap.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Naturally it was a trap. The EU is so desperate for our cash to prop up their crumbing, corrupt organisation.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

With our weak recovery, they would probably be paying us. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

More broken Brexit promises?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-spouses-in-eu

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I dare say it is more to do with the notoriously chaotic Home Office staff rather than anything the government has done.

They have until 2022 before they have to apply for a permit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why on earth would a successful business woman in the Czech Republic, married to a British citizen, and with a mortgage free house, want to come to the UK for?

Why can't she get a holiday visa like anyone else? :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No.

As is plainly obvious from the story you linked to.

Just bog-standard Home Office civil service incompetence. If we reach the point where people who have been promised settlement are actually being told they can’t have it, at that point it’s a broken promise. As of right now, it’s just another desperate scrabble in the mud for a “broken Brexit promise” story.

I’m sure it won’t stop you trying though.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They're NOT in the UK. They want to come to the UK. That is a different matter.
Why does somebody's husband need to come to the UK in order for the wife to visit her father?:confused:


AFAIK, the effect of any favourable appeal is backdated, and is effective as of the date of the original unfavourable decision.
So no actual reason or need for moving back to the UK, just a what if? Sounds like immigration fraud to me, so that he can leave her behind in Spain, and come to the UK himself.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes, why would a heavily pregnant woman want her husband with her?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I can see why she would, however I’m sure you can see the devil in the detail there. The husband isn’t an EU citizen, he’s Moroccan, and just so happens to have legal permission to reside in Spain. Tragic though it is, immigration permits for non-EU citizens are an entirely different matter. I’d be surprised if his immigration route to the UK had been any different prior to Brexit. We were never in Schengen so his paperwork would always have been checked at his port of entry.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Given all the time that must have passed from applying onwards, then either she has been "7 months pregnant" for a long time:rolleyes:, or she wasn't at the time of applying, and therefore being "heavily pregnant" now is immaterial to the case.
A visit is just that, no need for entitlement to residency.
If he has a legal Spanish passport, then he can visit, just as any legal Spanish passport holder can visit.

Why should a UK MP get involved over 2 people living in Spain?
They want to come here and get pre-settled status. What is pre- anything about that? Shouldn't pre-settled status be for people already here for some time?


---------- Post added at 22:33 ---------- Previous post was at 22:30 ----------

If he's not an EU citizen, then pre-settled status can never apply.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Anyone know why you can't get a milkshake in McDonald's in England Scotland or Wales but you can in N Ireland? Doesn't particularly bother me as I don't really like them from there but is there a reason besides the one intimated?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Liberated from the dead hand of the corrupt EU, the UK's economy has soared ahead, leading to some very limited supply-side issues at KFC, Nando's and McDonalds as demand races ahead. Northern Ireland is fortunate enough to share a border with a lagging EU country with excess capacity so can be supplied from there. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Northern Ireland almost certainly shares the same supply chain as ROI and the milkshakes are most likely manufactured there.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The HGV driver shortage is Europe wide.

Link

Just as with medical staff, there is nobody around to employ, no matter what the pay and conditions.
The problem is that too many people get a "nose-bleed", if they are expected to work too far, or for too long, away from home.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Strange how this Europe-wide shortage of HGV drivers isn’t affecting food stocks elsewhere in Europe…

https://www.fdiforum.net/mag/supply-...redients-boss/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The UK and Ireland depend a lot on deliveries from mainland Europe. With Covid still around, I expect drivers prefer to stay "local" in mainland Europe.

Link
Ireland
Link

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are so predictable, Andrew!

Do yourself a favour - take the blinkers off. Taste the coffee!:D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

2.49 in the morning in the morning is not the right time for most people to be drinking coffee. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Coz you won't be tasting milkshake

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

52% of voters don't drink milk shakes from mcd's;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

100% at the moment don't except for voters in Northern Ireland :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No problem then is there.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Maybe I should have said "can't".

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Quite.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58329439

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's bad for you anyway.:D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But it won't stop us, bet the bog rolls already gone

Food is bad for you, look how thin we all were after WWII, rationing returning will solve the obesity crisis

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:D but worrying!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Meanwhile, the UK is now free to reform its hopelessly bureaucratic data protection laws. I for one won’t miss the cookie pop-up tsunami, foisted on me by Brussels for no good reason.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58340333

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Even if the rules say they're no longer required, doesn't mean for global sites you won't still see them here.

If they're required in the EU but not in the UK, will a company produce a UK specific site, or just keep it in for the UK as a simple way to comply for both?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I know. But that will be down to poor web design. The cookie control pop-up hinders user engagement with any website, and worse, it does so on the all-important first visit, when first impressions count. Once a few sites ditch it, it will leave the rest looking clunky. Even a few extra seconds wait time is an eternity on the web. There’s no technical reason why site operators can’t remove the UK from whichever geoblocking system they use to prevent EU users from seeing the website without first acknowledging the cookie control pop-up. After the law changes, and it gets inevitable publicity in UK media, I think lots of places will ditch it.

On a related issue, by the way, the real benefits of these reforms aren’t in the removal of cookie pup-ups, they are in relaxing the absurd administrative burden currently put upon even small charities and community groups who already barely have the resources to manage simple members/supporters lists and have to have reams of policies just to ensure such things aren’t shared by the wrong email address or even stored on the wrong cloud service, and to inform the data commissioner when even an extremely trivial data ‘breach’ occurs.

It has been rather annoying sitting in more than one context and witnessing the chaos it has caused, especially in situations where things are being run by volunteers. I won’t be sorry to see the back of as much of that as possible.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well, if some EU rules still apply to NI, will websites aimed at all of the UK still have to comply with EU regulations?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Looks like the suggestion of changes to data protection legislation aren't sitting well with some areas of business. Not sure how this might impact are data equivalence deal with the EU.
https://www.ft.com/content/f344f7ea-...3-26b73c5804da

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Those with a vested interest in aligning with the EU will continue to fight a rearguard action against any expression of British sovereignty. In particular we can expect large companies that can absorb bureaucracy relatively better than small ones to fight to preserve this advantage.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If the site developers want to do that yes, but it all depends if it's worth them changing it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As with most things Brexit, the government is well within its rights to make changes to our rules. That doesn't mean that other countries or organisations won't also make changes to their approach after that.

Why would any country in the EU transfer data to a 3rd party country where they don't have an agreement that matches their internal rules as to how that data will be protected?

The EU made clear that their adequacy decision would be revisited if divergence happened, and that is based on their member states own views.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres.../en/ip_21_3183

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The Taliban are the enemy. Maybe frenemies is the word you're after to describe countries like the US, Japan, France etc.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Calling the EU an enemy is a bit OTT, but their actions suggest they now see us as a strategic rival rather than as an ally and we should view them likewise.

International treaties are generally based on mutual recognition of standards, not on alignment, and while the data treaty between the UK and EU does indeed use the language of recognition (“adequacy” in this case) the EU’s warnings in this case demonstrate that what they really want is alignment, or as near to it as possible.

It is ludicrous to suggest that the UK’s new data regime would materially threaten the personal details of EU citizens (as it would also do the same to UK citizens), though as all EU systems are an excessively bureaucratic fudge designed to mollify competing interests across member states, it is odds-on that the UK’s new regime could be markedly more efficient - and that’s what the EU is actually worried about. They will hide behind data security concerns but in fact, what they fear is the freedom we now have to out-compete them.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Fair point, though looks like there are still clauses around changes in that too

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/defa..._agreement.pdf

Re: Britain outside the EU