Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Same difference still a country in its own right. Should be able leave union if it so wishes, without our way so

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

But in 2014 they said they wanted to stay in the union,in a "once in a lifetime" referendum,i know Scotland is a bit dire in places but the life expectancy is surely more than 5 years even with the nats ruining the nhs :shrug:

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

[QUOTE=papa smurf;36020668]But in 2014 they said they wanted to stay in the union,in a "once in a lifetime" referendum,i know Scotland is a bit dire in places but the life expectancy is surely more than 5 years even with the nats ruining the nhs :shrug:

What is a lieftime. Who's lifetime. What is a Nat somebody not of your persuan. Our gov ain't running our NHS very well,it's about to collapse.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

In the same way that Crimea(60% Russian population) and eastern Ukraine should be allowed/accepted? Even though the Ukrainian constitution doesn't allow it.


How many of the SNP's "successes" are purely down to the excessive amount of money they get from England? They are running an 8% deficit(that includes oil revenues which will run out).

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Well, if the Russians hadn’t sent 300,000 Tatars to Uzbekistan, the demographics would be a bit different...

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Breaking:

At last the blocking is over.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Six Labour MPs voted for the bill, and it looks like around 30 abstained, in defiance of Corbyn who, even now, still doesn’t understand that there is a clear democratic mandate not only for Brexit, but to stop dithering and get it done. The rest of the PLP, apparently equally delusional as their lame duck leader, followed his whip and voted against.

---------- Post added at 15:37 ---------- Previous post was at 15:19 ----------

Update ... 25 formal Labour abstentions, five shadow ministers failed to show up and did not have permission to be absent. One brand new Labour MP seems to have missed the vote by accident. What a shower of incompetents and moral cowards.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

MPs have voted to proceed with the Government's EU Withdrawal Agreement by 358 votes to 234 majority 124

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

358? If there are 365 Tory MPs, and 6 Labour voted for it, that means at least 13 Tory MPs didn't. A principaled stand or down the pub? ;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I imagine with the parliamentary maths as they are, a few people may have been excused attendance for one reason or another. I don’t know - when I last posted the details of who voted for what were still coming in. I would be seriously surprised (and unimpressed in the extreme) if any Tories voted against, or were absent without permission, given the centrality of this vote to the election campaign.

Edit ... full breakdown here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...he-brexit-deal

Looks like about a dozen Tories didn’t vote. As I said, I’d be monumentally surprised if they didn’t have permission from the whips to be absent.

(Obvs Sinn Fein didn’t vote, but a few SNP and at least one DUP didn’t either).

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

11 Tories were absent

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

well that's smashed that conspiracy theory:)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Do they have a note from their Mums?

Still 2 unaccounted for then....

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

If you’re really desperate for a shred of comfort you could go through the voting list with a fine-tooth comb if you want. Grauniad link above.

But to be honest I think even for a remainer in continued denial you’re grasping.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The bill passed no need for any further discussion really.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I was just interested old chap, chillax !

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I think this thread gives us an indication of how things might go with the trade talks.
https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/s...33108472434688

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Prophesied by the guy who said we would not even get past the first stage of negotiations with the EU!

When are you going to ditch your negative outlook and actually try to understand how many times you have been wrong on this?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It’s humour - chillax, dude... ;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

With all due respect, lots of people have been wrong from both sides. It's not just a one person/side thing.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Technically, negotiations haven't started yet and can't start until after we leave the EU on 31st Jan 2020. All that has been agreed so far is an interim set of arrangements, and until the EU Parliament approves it, even that isn't in place.
Link

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It's meant to be funny, but I'm not sure I've been wrong on anything as it's all opinions until it happens.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

“Dogma demands authority, rather than intelligent thought, as the source of opinion; it requires persecution of heretics and hostility to unbelievers; it asks of its disciples that they should inhibit natural kindliness in favor of systematic hatred.”

~ Bertrand Russell

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance with his instincts, he will accept it even on the slenderest evidence.

~ Bertrand Russell

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

A bit harsh on yourself, but you* said it, not me... :D

*well, BR did, actually...

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Except that I was referring to Andrew's persistent negativity when it comes to all things Brexit.

The opportunities I can see from leaving a failing, bureaucratic and undemocratic EU and entering into new trading arrangements with the US, India, China, African and Australian/Asian and Commonwealth countries indicate that Brexit will turn out to be the best decision the electorate have ever taken. I have been listening to all the arguments, but frankly, neither I nor the majority of the electorate, see a more convincing argument to stay in the EU.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

But isn't that just your opinion? Yes some of that opinion might be based on facts but so are the other sides opinions. None of us will know who is right or whether both are partly right/wrong till after it happens. Some people see it as a good thing, others don't. It's getting boring when people belittle other people's opinions on something that hasn't happened yet and frankly is one big guess at the minute. That goes for both sides too.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The difference being Andrew loves to quote and link to experts so his opinion is put forward as fact thanks to their opinions. As you well know remainers have frequently put forward opinion as fact.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Exactly. As my post #2026 says, it's all opinions until it happens although obviously some opinions can be more informed than others. ;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

As do other people on the other side of the fence. It's not just a one man or one side thing. Anyway I'll leave it at that as it's going off topic.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

But if the information its formed on is based solely on your agenda it is meaningless.

Thankfully we have now moved on from all the speculation, more informed or otherwise.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The information you receive is to be of questionable sources that purely have a one sided agenda. Were these the same sources that said, right after a leave vote 500,000 jobs would be lost, but as time went on, 500,000 were never lost!?!?

Forecasts are just that, forecasts, they have been wrong many many times.

We are not doing these arguments anymore, it's a bit late actually, we are finally leaving the corrupted EU, democratic vote of 2016 finally respected again, by a brand new parliament, many of the treacherous MPs who tried to thwart the 2016 EU Referendum result, royally fired by the electorate.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Thankfully the electorate ( those who the remainers called uneducated uninformed etc) have returned a Government who will implement the will of the people and in no uncertain terms.

All the remainers have achieved is 3 1/2 yrs time and money wasted. I hope they are happy.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1577031966

Interesting you mention the undemocratic EU in one breath, then entering into new trading arrangements with China - cognitive dissonance, much?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Failing to see the connection between a perceived "undemocratic EU" and China. China isn't the one looking to continue to set rules in the UK. All in the name of a "level playing field", whatever the EU defines that to be. Only the EU would even think of imposing such restrictions on another country.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Well, all of Andrew's Brexit predictions up until now have proved to be wrong, have they not? Mine have only proved wrong in terms of when we could get the deal through, but it was Parliament, not the EU, that was blocking this.

As far as China is concerned, it is a big trading nation these days. Much as I am concerned about human rights in that country, the degree of democracy permitted there is a separate issue from trade. China would see it as none of our business, and they have a point.

There are not many countries in the world with our high standards. Are you suggesting we don't trade with them either?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

If they are using forced prison labour to make our our Christmas cards then yes we shouldn't trade with them.
https://news.sky.com/story/tesco-hal...mates-11892913

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I found a message from aliens in my roll of tin foil.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Don't say that, papa, you know someone here would believe that!

---------- Post added at 19:35 ---------- Previous post was at 19:33 ----------

As you well know, Mr K, that has only just come to light and Tesco is taking this seriously. No-one is suggesting that this is acceptable. Trust you to take an extreme example to argue the point.:rolleyes:

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Hat making instructions?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

AFAIK OB, the 'Evil Empire', aka the EU, doesn't use forced labour or chlorinate its chicken. Going elsewhere in the World will lead to a lowering of standards both in quality of products and human rights. This country has taken a massive backward step, whilst the EU will move forward without us. As we'll find out, we're really not the super power or as influential as we once were.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Of course the EU would never trade with such a country, never mind sign a trade deal with it.:rolleyes:
Link
Report on EU prisons

So China is actually sticking to those guidelines.


The EU "chlorinates" vegetables and salads. It's a perfectly safe process, which is why the EU bans it for meat. Washing with air and a chlorinated wash is better than the EU standard of washing with air and water.
Link

Link

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The EU routinely hides its protectionism behind claims of concern for consumer safety. I don’t believe for a moment it never occurred to them that banning chlorinated chucked was a quick and easy way of effectively banning cheap, quality chicken imports from outside the EU.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Or forcing up costs for other EU countries. Are we expected to believe that conditions in eastern EU countries are that good?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

lol, humour me, which predictions of mine are you referring to, Old Boy?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

:LOL: ..That comment will for sure win the silliest comment of the year award. it's got too man.. pure classic ;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

If you mean asking for factual evidence to back up an ad hominem statement is "silly", you have obviously been partaking of your previously admitted mind-altering substances (man...), ;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Here this will cheer you up hugh ;)

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-fi...wrong-11893531


Ex-leader Ed Miliband :p::p::p: and his 2015 campaign chief are among those who will be looking into how Labour can get back into power. :D

That must give you loads of confidence that Mr Mummbling Mouth has got involved :)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Think you've strayed from the thread a bit there old chap, and are being a bit anti-semitic. Guess different rules apply if its Ed Miliband.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

That's absolute tosh, Mr K. The fact that we will trade more with China will not impact on human rights in that country.

It is typical of the bleeding heart liberals to confuse issues like this and interfere with the affairs of other countries.

You need to remember that it wasn't long ago when our prisoners were making mailbags, and before that were sentenced to hard labour for many offences. We may have moved on, but other countries still need to progress, as they will with time. We do not make the laws in other countries and we need to climb down from our high horses.

---------- Post added at 08:43 ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 ----------

That the economy would suffer (it has not), that the EU negotiations would not get beyond phase 1 (which they did), that we would never get a withdrawal agreement past Brussels (which we did), that Boris would never get rid of the backstop (which he did within three months...).

I'm not sure which of your predictions on this subject you think have come to pass. Yes, the pound has dropped in value, but that will recover when there is certainty in the minds of investors.

Your views are influenced a lot by economic forecasts, but you don't seem to accept that time and time again, these have been proved wrong, based as they are on negatives, without proper consideration of the positives.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Brexit hasn't happened yet OB, and may not truly happen for years. The economic damage will the become apparent then and the years after, all too late of course.

---------- Post added at 08:58 ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 ----------

You did read djfunkdup's post, didn't you ??:erm:

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

To be fair, any real impact, one way or another, of Brexit won't happen just yet. The only aspect of EU negotiations that has started is the non-binding Political Declaration. The EU is now kicking up a fuss over the "level playing field" being removed. The backstop is still there, just in a modified form.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The economic damage was said to be the immediate consequence of a 'leave' vote, Mr K.

I'm still not sure why you think there will be long term economic damage when Brexit is all about increasing trade and divorcing ourselves from the constraints of the EU.

Incidentally, I will say again, trade with the EU will continue.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Old Boy, firstly thank you for your comprehensive answer. However, I make the following responses:
1) Brexit has not happened yet so projections of what will happen to the economy are still valid. What we do know is that the £ has fallen in value since the referendum result, investment has dropped but unemployment remains low. Forecasts do include positives but you fail to acknowledge the analysis done by Her Majesty's Treasury and instead adopt a conspiracy theory that they are all Remainers. I must remind you that every civil servant I've spoken to has been keen on Brexit as it has increased job opportunities for them!
2) I'm not sure what you mean about Phase 1 negotiations - I've never mentioned this.
3) I've also never predicted we wouldn't get a withdrawal agreement in place. Are you confusing me with someone else?
3) Regarding the backstop, I pointed out that that it was impossible for the UK to have a hard Brexit and for there to be no hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.
What is happening is that Northern Ireland is effectively following EU rules so the border will be between GB and Northern Ireland. This was something that the EU offered Theresa May but she declined it as she felt it split the Union plus the DUP would never approve it. See here https://flipchartfairytales.wordpres...johnsons-suez/

---------- Post added at 10:06 ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 ----------

Spot on Mr K.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

No projections are valid. Nobody can predict the future. Given the recent run of predictions/ projections on all manner of economic and political outcomes, only a fool would weigh into an argument citing such.

And that is not aimed you specifically, but anyone that claims they know Brexit will be a success or failure, and both outcomes will be a matter of relativity, measured across many benchmarks such that in 5, 10, 15 years both sides will say they were right and will quote many fact, figures and percentages to back their argument........such is the way of things.

I doubt many of us will notice any difference whatsoever.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

John Bercow SNUBBED: Ex-Speaker becomes first in 230 years NOT to get a seat in Lords

According to a report by the Mail Online, the move is seen as “revenge” from Prime Minister Boris Johnson over Mr Bercow's handling of Brexit.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12...er-peerage-spt

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

To be fair he was warned pretty clearly earlier this year that this would happen, if he kept on innovating and selectively applying Commons precedents in order to allow the legislature to appropriate responsibilities that properly belong with the executive. IMO his actions went way beyond defending the power of Parliament and strayed into partisanship. He’s reaping his reward now.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It's possible that just it's a matter of timing. He resigned not that long ago. Too soon for this set of honours?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

That makes sense. I suspect Johnson's had enough to do than worry about who gets what honours.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Good! I’m sure his pension will be fine, he doesn’t need it topped up with a peerage.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Nope. They could have done it on a moment’s notice had they wanted to - you don’t have to wait for the new year or birthday honours to create peers.

That said, the final proof, if it be needed, will come when Bercow fails to be elevated to the Lords in the birthday honours this coming June.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The people receiving the honours get advance notice, so that will reduce the time frame.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Just goes to what farcical political cobblers the honours system is. IDS has been knighted, for what??? Services to the benefits system !?

Anyway all victims of Universal Credit now know his home address ;)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9262486.html
Oops !

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Actually, Universal Credit is a much better system than the one it replaces.

The problem is that in line with the austerity measures that were necessary following the Labour Government's period of rule, the funding of it had to be reduced. Restore the funding, as I believe Boris intends to do, and most of the problems will melt away.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Yeah that's right OB, all problems will melt away, much like the polar ice caps....

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Indeed, however as I said, peerages can be created at any time and are not subject to the same timetable as the rest of the honours system. Had they intended to grant Bercow a peerage on his retirement as speaker, it would have been done.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Anyone remember Brexiter Patrick Minford's statements about manufacturing post-Brexit being largely unviable?

Looks like we could be going down that path.

https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/st...02014352183296

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

BREAKING: MPs have approved Boris Johnson's EU Withdrawal Bill Agreement at 3rd reading with a majority of 99.

Ayes: 330
NOES: 231

Bill will now go to House of Lords and is not expected to add any significant Amendment due to the size of the Conservative Governments Majority that will simply just remove them when the bill comes back to the Commons.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Whoopee do.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Pointless response award of the week goes to... ^^^^ :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Description of how trade deal talks might go. Suggests more of a Swiss-type arrangement than a Canadian deal.
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2020/...-brexit-talks/

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

That would be the way to go considering the geographic and commercial closeness of the EU and UK. Gonna be a hell of a hard sell if anything close the EU-Switzerland agreement come out at the end. Many red lines would need to be quietly pushed to the side...

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

A Bill regarding Referendums is currently going through Parliament.

https://publications.parliament.uk/p...09/5801009.pdf

For comparison with European Referendum Act 2015 :-
In the House of Commons, it passed 316 votes to 53 on its third reading in the Commons (so would have met Section 2b)
In the actual Referendum vote, 35,577,342 out of 46,500,001 Registered Voters voted, which was 72.21% (so would have met Section 3)
17,410,742 out of the 35,577,342 voters voted to leave, which was 51.89% of those who voted (so would not have met Section 4)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

So does thet scupper any future referendum to rejoin the EU and any chance of Scotland leaving the union.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

More interestingly for the immediate future, the quorum clause might allow opponents of Scottish independence to defeat a future referendum simply by failing to vote at all (I haven’t done the maths yet ... the 2014 referendum had a turnout of around 80%). It also makes it impossible for the SNP to edge it - they would need to increase their vote by more than 15 percentage points, rather than just a shade over 5. For this reason the Nats could be expected to become especially shrill in any Commons debate.

However, this is a private members bill that has been introduced in the Lords. Cormack is a Tory peer but AFAIK this isn’t government policy and I’ll be surprised if it passes its second reading, which would mean it wouldn’t appear in the Commons at all, unless el gov decided to directly introduce their own version of it at some stage.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Diz at mean its gonny cost us more fir ma fish fingers oot farmfoods ? :erm:

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

EU confirms that UK has signed up to border checks between the mainland and Northern Ireland...contradicting BoJo
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9283686.html

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

There will be no checks ON the Irish Sea. The checks will be before or after or we will rename the body of water the Irish Channel and the statement would still be true.

I'm sure there will be plenty of "weasling" on all sides for many years to come.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51149531
What a pathetic waste of money, £500k to make a bell bong ! Maybe the money would be better directed at the food banks in this country ?

Just shows the individuals concerned are totally out of touch with the rest of the country. Surely time to come to together rather than trying to stoke division again. Can't see this going down well with many Brexiteers either.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

we won't be bothered after the 31 jan,they're taking away national identities ready for the big merging into one super pile of dung.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Apparently the “Brexit Bong” incurs a heavy uplift.......

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...imes-sounding/

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

£5 is too much too much to waste on this irrelevance, let alone £500k. It sums up Brexit, a flag waving, bell bonging , xenophobic amusement for those rich few it won't affect. Doubtless they'll be drinking Champagne (from France), whilst they lust after their blue French made passports.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?dcr=0...30.kzTaNp7MCYs


Was it Bong or Boing....

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I think they should have loud speakers playing laughing for an hour,so we [leavers] can all enjoy the moment;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Yes, but it'll be a moment. Reality comes the next day when you realise you're still paying into the EU, obeying all its rules, but have no voting rights. Party on !

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It's great to see you so upbeat and not bitter and twisted by brexit.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It's also great to see you're still deluded, guess it helps ;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Basic Project/Change Management - you want a change to plan, and you have six to twelve months to arrange the work, the work plan can be amended so the work is done at normal costing levels - you want it done in a compressed timescale with very little notice, it will cost a lot more; not just the cost of getting the work done at an elevated rate, because of the short time scale, but also the cost of all the work and resources you had planned in that time (and the time and resources it takes to get back on to the original plan).

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I agree. I think celebrating Brexit would be distasteful, very un-British and insulting to our former EU partners who have done nothing wrong to us.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

OK, who’s hacked Pierre’s account? :D

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

May come across as weird, but I think I’ve been consistent over the years.

I voted remain. My anger over Brexit was, and has never been with the EU, with the U.K. parliamentarians.

I abhor relating EU membership and Brexit with WW2 etc. Totally hate it and reject it.

It fuels the “little englander” moniker that Mr K likes to trot out, but detracts from the reasons for Brexit that I believe being a little englander was not one.

I have no malice to the EU, but the more I looked at it over the last three years the more I believed the EU was not something I could believe in. Pre-Brexit I hadn’t given it any thought.

But now, decision made, decision soon to be implemented, move on, look to the future. I can see the attraction of rubbing the remainers nose in it after the last three years but that is not how I was brought up.

Win and lose graciously.