Cable Forum
Page 21 of 24 « First 1117181920 21 222324
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Cable Forum (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/index.php)
-   Current Affairs (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/forumdisplay.php?f=20)
-   -   PM Boris forms a government (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33707714)

jfman 06-09-2019 19:08
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009144)
:confused:
I don't really see what's complicated.

Damien 06-09-2019 19:09
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36009135)
At which point we will most definitely have gone through the looking glass and on towards the second star on the right.

I still can’t shake the feeling that they’re up to something. They had the Lords all set to talk it out and then called it off. They must have seen some way they think they can argue Boris is still acting legally if he acts as he has said he would. I thought they had reached an understanding over the calling of an election, but seemingly not. So what .... ?
Apparently the opposition (to the government) promised not to use a guillotine motion to quicken the bill if the Tory Lords didn’t filibuster.

nomadking 06-09-2019 19:26
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009145)
I don't really see what's complicated.
Link

Quote:
This was 2015. Few people had even heard of the word Brexit. It was a year before David Cameron called the referendum, two years before Theresa May declared “red lines” over the UK’s withdrawal. It was three years before she agreed to the Irish border backstop as an option and signed the withdrawal agreement that triggered a breakdown in Westminster.
...

The Irish government persuaded the EU to make the backstop a condition of

the UK’s withdrawal.
...
The Irish goal was to get the border into a legally binding withdrawal agreement – Dublin’s point of maximum leverage – rather than future trade relations, when Dublin would struggle to be heard.
How are the DUP responsible for any of that?

Sephiroth 06-09-2019 19:28
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009142)
Yes, that's the implementation thanks to the DUP.

---------- Post added at 17:53 ---------- Previous post was at 17:52 ----------



The UK could conceivably collapse anyway with no deal.
You have departed reason.

jfman 06-09-2019 19:34
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36009149)
You have departed reason.
There's increasing chance of Scottish independence and a border poll on the island of Ireland as a result. That is undeniable.

nomadking 06-09-2019 19:37
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009150)
There's increasing chance of Scottish independence and a border poll on the island of Ireland as a result. That is undeniable.
Any issues of the backstop and problems getting medicines and food would be there for Scotland and NI, as it has to come through England.

pip08456 06-09-2019 19:47
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009151)
Any issues of the backstop and problems getting medicines and food would be there for Scotland and NI, as it has to come through England.
And if Scotland go independant we could stiff them with a border.

nomadking 06-09-2019 19:53
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36009152)
And if Scotland go independant we could stiff them with a border.
According to the Remainers, we would have no choice. They keep going on about this and that about borders.

jfman 06-09-2019 19:56
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009151)
Any issues of the backstop and problems getting medicines and food would be there for Scotland and NI, as it has to come through England.
England will have solved that problem by then. They can cope with adverse weather, militant French unions, after all...

nomadking 06-09-2019 20:01
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009154)
England will have solved that problem by then. They can cope with adverse weather, militant French unions, after all...
What's to solve? Their problem, not ours.

jfman 06-09-2019 20:06
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009155)
What's to solve? Their problem, not ours.
Goods moving from the EU to Scotland (in the EU) wouldn't be affected by increased customs checks for goods traversing a third country (England).

richard s 06-09-2019 20:13
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
DUP SUCK.

Mr K 06-09-2019 20:16
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard s (Post 36009158)
DUP SUCK.
Yeah, they suck lemons by the look of them....

nomadking 06-09-2019 20:25
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009156)
Goods moving from the EU to Scotland (in the EU) wouldn't be affected by increased customs checks for goods traversing a third country (England).
Scotland wouldn't be in the EU. No way it can be, and not overnight. Getting their 8% deficit down to below 3% should be fun to watch.

jfman 06-09-2019 20:38
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009162)
Scotland wouldn't be in the EU. No way it can be, and not overnight. Getting their 8% deficit down to below 3% should be fun to watch.
Wishful thinking on your part.

Scotland doesn't have a budget, London produces statistics that aren't directly comparable to a Scottish budget.

pip08456 06-09-2019 20:44
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009164)
Wishful thinking on your part.

Scotland doesn't have a budget, London produces statistics that aren't directly comparable to a Scottish budget.
They will have to have one if they go independeant. No more EU, no more cash handouts from London either

nomadking 06-09-2019 20:45
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009164)
Wishful thinking on your part.

Scotland doesn't have a budget, London produces statistics that aren't directly comparable to a Scottish budget.
Scottish oil revenues are included in the 8%. If anything with independence, their spending would have to go up as they take over central UK responsibilities. They would have to have their own currency and show for a period of time they can be fiscally responsible.:D

Link

Quote:
The latest Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (Gers) data for Scotland shows that for 2017-18 overall state spending hit £73.4bn compared to tax income of just under £60bn, including oil revenues. That left a deficit for the year of £13.4bn, compared with £13.5bn the year before. Scotland’s deficit was equivalent to 7.9% of GDP, while for the UK as a whole it was 1.9%.

jfman 06-09-2019 20:47
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36009165)
They will have to have one if they go independeant. No more EU, no more cash handouts from London either
They will, but right now they don't. London produces statistics that it portrays as a Scottish budget. However, it includes expenditure the Scottish Government are committed to abolishing - Trident for one.

---------- Post added at 19:47 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009166)
Scottish oil revenues are included in the 8%. If anything with independence, their spending would have to go up as they take over central UK responsibilities. They would have to have their own currency and show for a period of time they can be fiscally responsible.:D

Link
Ah GERS. Not a budget.

Pierre 06-09-2019 20:48
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36009132)
Thought this would get more notice...

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...n-becomes-law/
Good.

pip08456 06-09-2019 20:50
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009167)
They will, but right now they don't. London produces statistics that it portrays as a Scottish budget. However, it includes expenditure the Scottish Government are committed to abolishing - Trident for one.

---------- Post added at 19:47 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------



Ah GERS. Not a budget.
Well when they have independence we'll close the base and move it elsewhere so there won't be any spending for trident.

jfman 06-09-2019 20:54
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36009170)
Well when they have independence we'll close the base and move it elsewhere so there won't be any spending for trident.
Exactly - this is factored into the GERS figure for Scotland that puts it in 'deficit'. As is it's contribution to UK debt repayments.

Oddly - the same stats show that England is the only fiscally responsible country in the UK yet England wants to desperately keep it together. Why are there no politicians saying an extra £Xm a week for the English NHS without Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland? :confused:

Carth 06-09-2019 21:05
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009171)
Why are there no politicians saying an extra £Xm a week for the English NHS without Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland? :confused:
Because - from prior experience - people will moan that it will then cost an extra £1.42p to holiday in Scotland and Wales, the price of porridge oats will go through the roof, Guiness will become a luxury drink only available through mail order, and Cardiff/Swansea/Wrexham would be playing in Europe every season :p:

nomadking 06-09-2019 21:07
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009167)
They will, but right now they don't. London produces statistics that it portrays as a Scottish budget. However, it includes expenditure the Scottish Government are committed to abolishing - Trident for one.

---------- Post added at 19:47 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------



Ah GERS. Not a budget.
It's still what they spend.
Link

Quote:
SCOTS are paying £180 million every year for Trident, the SNP has claimed.
Link

Quote:
In fact the annual running costs of Trident will be around £2 billion a year and £200 million for the aircraft carriers. Scotland’s share of this will be less than £200 million, compared to a total budget spend of £71bn.
Not going to make much of a dent
From my previous link.

Quote:
That left a deficit for the year of £13.4bn, compared with £13.5bn the year before.

jfman 06-09-2019 21:08
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009174)
It's still what they spend.
Link


Link
However, it's not comparable to a budget of an independent nation. Which was my original point. You can deflect/deny as you wish but that will not make you correct.

1andrew1 06-09-2019 21:08
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Well, Rees-Mogg may be characterised as the Honourable Member for the 18th Century but Boris Johnson is fast becoming the Honourable Member for the 1970s :D

Quote:
Boris Johnson called David Cameron 'girly swot', leaked document reveals
The unredacted part of cabinet papers reveals the PM's view of his predecessor and suggests how he communicates in private.
Mr Johnson wrote: "The whole September session is a rigmarole introduced by girly swot Cameron and show the public that MPs are earning their crust."

Previously, the phrase "by girly swot Cameron" had been redacted in the papers released by the court.

It is thought that they were redacted to minimise political embarrassment. Both politicians went to Eton and were members of the Bullingdon Club for Oxford University students...
The latest episode comes a day after Mr Johnson appeared to call Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn a "great big girl's blouse" in the House of Commons.
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...veals-11803807

Carth 06-09-2019 21:12
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36009176)
Well, Rees-Mogg may be characterised as the Honourable Member for the 18th Century but Boris Johnson is fast becoming the Honourable Member for the 1970s :D
Quote:
Boris Johnson called David Cameron 'girly swot', leaked document reveals . .
The latest episode comes a day after Mr Johnson appeared to call Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn a "great big girl's blouse" in the House of Commons.


https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...veals-11803807
He's going up all the time in my estimation, proper lad is our Boris :D

nomadking 06-09-2019 21:56
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009175)
However, it's not comparable to a budget of an independent nation. Which was my original point. You can deflect/deny as you wish but that will not make you correct.
So they're going to reduce their deficit by over £8bn? That's over 10% of their current spending.


Where are the "correct" figures? What happens when the oil runs out?

jfman 06-09-2019 22:05
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009186)
So they're going to reduce their deficit by over £8bn? That's over 10% of their current spending.

Where are the "correct" figures? What happens when the oil runs out?
Correct figures aren't available - nobody calculates Scotland's total tax income on the basis of it being an independent state.

I don't know about the oil. What do other countries plan on doing? Norway and their sovereign wealth fund has amassed £1tn in global investments, for example.

Pierre 06-09-2019 22:24
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009186)

Where are the "correct" figures? What happens when the oil runs out?
You’re assuming Oil will run out.

heero_yuy 07-09-2019 09:00
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
The oil won't run out as the world will no longer have a use for it so it'll stay in the ground and the revenue will have gone anyway.:D

Damien 07-09-2019 09:18
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
I read a while back a theory that the next 'oil crisis' won't be because it's running out of it but the economic consequences of a drop of demand for investors, pension funds e.t.c.

Pierre 07-09-2019 09:57
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Going wildly off topic for a second, I read some time ago that oil is not a fossil fuel but a naturally occurring mineral. Found a depths much lower than the fossil record.

Now you can file that along with other crackpot positions, but it was interesting all the same.

Google it.

Chris 07-09-2019 10:09
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Yes, I’ve come across that. Naturally produced by earth’s internal processes and therefore effectively limitless. Apparently.

---------- Post added at 09:09 ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 ----------

How the smegola did we get here?

Sephiroth 07-09-2019 10:25
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
I only caught a part of the discussion on LBC at around 09:10 this morning so can't tell you which loony leftie MP compared Boris with Mugabe in the context of Brexit.

Whilst on the subject of Boris, he's managed to get himself seriously boxed in; highly amateur, imo. I put that down to that thug Cummings and a sure amount of naievity in Johnson himself.

Is he popular enough to win a general election?

jfman 07-09-2019 10:36
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
I actually think Boris should outflank the opposition here and rather than call an election legislate for a second referendum. Win it, then call a general election basking in the glory of delivering Brexit. Gets him out both holes and does what the opposition don’t expect.

pip08456 07-09-2019 10:46
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36009209)
I only caught a part of the discussion on LBC at around 09:10 this morning so can't tell you which loony leftie MP compared Boris with Mugabe in the context of Brexit.

Whilst on the subject of Boris, he's managed to get himself seriously boxed in; highly amateur, imo. I put that down to that thug Cummings and a sure amount of naievity in Johnson himself.

Is he popular enough to win a general election?
Boxed in? I wonderif this is true? No matter what the opposition says there will be an election eventually.

The genie may come out of the box then.

---------- Post added at 09:46 ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36009209)
I only caught a part of the discussion on LBC at around 09:10 this morning so can't tell you which loony leftie MP compared Boris with Mugabe in the context of Brexit.

Whilst on the subject of Boris, he's managed to get himself seriously boxed in; highly amateur, imo. I put that down to that thug Cummings and a sure amount of naievity in Johnson himself.

Is he popular enough to win a general election?
Boxed in? I wonderif this is true? No matter what the opposition says there will be an election eventually.

The genie may come out of the box then.

1andrew1 07-09-2019 11:12
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
This sounds more and more like the plot of a Jeffrey Archer novel. :D
Jo is spot-on; he knows what most of Parliament and the country at large does; Boris is not working in the national interest.
Quote:
"So you're not like the Milliband Brothers then, Boris was asked by an Australian journalist, provoking what he called "an instant rebuke".
"Absolutely not," he replied. "We don't do things that way, that's a very left-wing thing... only a socialist could do that to his brother, only a socialist could regard familial ties as being so trivial as to shaft his own brother."

As Boris struggled with defeats in parliament and the defection or sacking for senior Conservatives for opposing his Brexit plans, Jo announced that he was quitting politics altogether - as both a minister and a member of parliament.
Jo tweeted: "It's been an honour to represent Orpington for 9 years & to serve as minister under three PMs. In recent weeks I've been torn between family loyalty and the nationals interest - it's an unresolved tension & time for others to take on my roles and MP & Minister #overandout."
Loyal to his brother, Jo resisted invitations to comment further. But the meaning of his resignation was clear. He is giving up his political career because he can no longer serve his brother because, he believes, Boris is no longer working in the "national interest."
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views...hnson-11804099

Maggy 07-09-2019 12:01
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36009203)
Yes, I’ve come across that. Naturally produced by earth’s internal processes and therefore effectively limitless. Apparently.

---------- Post added at 09:09 ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 ----------

How the smegola did we get here?
A question I have been asking for some time..

Sephiroth 07-09-2019 12:32
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009212)
I actually think Boris should outflank the opposition here and rather than call an election legislate for a second referendum. Win it, then call a general election basking in the glory of delivering Brexit. Gets him out both holes and does what the opposition don’t expect.
Being boxed in now, then yes.


---------- Post added at 11:32 ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36009213)
Boxed in? I wonderif this is true? No matter what the opposition says there will be an election eventually.

The genie may come out of the box then.

---------- Post added at 09:46 ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 ----------



Boxed in? I wonderif this is true? No matter what the opposition says there will be an election eventually.

The genie may come out of the box then.
Boxed in as to his 31-Oct commitment and resort to an election at an optimal time for Brexit.

1andrew1 07-09-2019 13:19
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 36009230)
A question I have been asking for some time..
Back in 2016, David Cameron wanted to heal the 40-year European divisions in the Conservative Party. He's now in the garden shed and Boris is wondering why he's now in the dog house that he bought for his PR puppy. ;)

---------- Post added at 12:19 ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36009233)
[Boxed in as to his 31-Oct commitment and resort to an election at an optimal time for Brexit.
If there's one thing he should have learnt from Theresa May and that's no red lines.

We will have an election once Boris honours Parliament's vote on no-deal. Until then, he's distrusted so the opposition parties quite sensibly won't permit an election to take place yet.

nomadking 07-09-2019 13:26
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36009237)
Back in 2016, David Cameron wanted to heal the 40-year European divisions in the Conservative Party. He's now in the garden shed and Boris is wondering why he's now in the dog house that he bought for his PR puppy. ;)

---------- Post added at 12:19 ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 ----------


If there's one thing he should have learnt from Theresa May and that's no red lines.
And the EU don't have their own red lines? The EU Parliament has to agree to any changed Withdrawal Agreement, and they're only due to be sitting for a total of 4 1/2 days before Oct 19th(I've checked the EU calendar).

jfman 07-09-2019 13:27
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
The key word is likely to be “due”.

nomadking 07-09-2019 13:45
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009240)
The key word is likely to be “due”.
Still impossible for a changed agreement to be put to them, properly scrutinised by everyone, debated, agreed, sent to the EU council of ministers, and so on. Then again, I suppose that's the general idea. Something that is 100% unachievable.

Carth 07-09-2019 13:47
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009240)
The key word is likely to be “due”.

No, the key words are "has to agree to", and I think everyone and his dog knows the EU are never going to willingly allow the budgie out of its cage.

Parliament, by 'following the will of the people' have probably consigned the UK to another (at least) 3 months in no mans land . . are we still paying for the dubious honour of being neither in nor out?

jfman 07-09-2019 13:51
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
The EU Parliament isn’t going to excessively scrutinise something that is put to them by the EU negotiating team that’s obviously in the interests of the EU.

nomadking 07-09-2019 13:59
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009243)
The EU Parliament isn’t going to excessively scrutinise something that is put to them by the EU negotiating team that’s obviously in the interests of the EU.
Are the EU the only ones to be allowed to properly scrutinise it?

jfman 07-09-2019 14:03
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009244)
Are the EU the only ones to be allowed to properly scrutinise it?
No, but I’m sure the EU leaders aren’t keeping huge secrets from their senior Parliamentarians. The EU Parliament is also made up from political parties that the EU leaders belong to - so it’s not rocket science. If Germany and France back a deal, their EU Parliament membership will largely follow.

Carth 07-09-2019 14:07
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009244)
Are the EU the only ones to be allowed to properly scrutinise it?
No matter who does the scrutiny, the answer will always be "no, come back in 3 months and try again" . . .

Many people knew years ago that the only way out was with 'no deal', events since the vote should, by now, have really shown many others this too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009245)
If Germany and France back a deal, their EU Parliament membership will largely follow.
Yes, if we get a deal to leave the EU, Italy (for one) will be next :)

nomadking 07-09-2019 14:07
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009245)
No, but I’m sure the EU leaders aren’t keeping huge secrets from their senior Parliamentarians. The EU Parliament is also made up from political parties that the EU leaders belong to - so it’s not rocket science. If Germany and France back a deal, their EU Parliament membership will largely follow.
The old "I was just following orders" line.

jfman 07-09-2019 14:09
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009247)
The old "I was just following orders" line.
All party politics follows the same ideas. There’s probably something alien to the UK called trust between the EU Parliament, European Council and leaders of EU member states.

nomadking 07-09-2019 14:30
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009248)
All party politics follows the same ideas. There’s probably something alien to the UK called trust between the EU Parliament, European Council and leaders of EU member states.
EU and "trust"?:confused: Simply obeying Germany and France is not the same as party politics. There still should be proper scrutiny and not just by one side. Just a few words can change everything, eg "unless and until". The backstop breaks international law which is meant to allow unilateral withdrawal from an agreement.

1andrew1 07-09-2019 14:42
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009253)
The backstop breaks international law which is meant to allow unilateral withdrawal from an agreement.
What is your source for that allegation?

jfman 07-09-2019 14:47
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009253)
EU and "trust"?:confused: Simply obeying Germany and France is not the same as party politics. There still should be proper scrutiny and not just by one side. Just a few words can change everything, eg "unless and until". The backstop breaks international law which is meant to allow unilateral withdrawal from an agreement.
Believe it or not some people do trust the EU to act in the collective interest of the Union - especially in negotiations with a future third country.

Do they think in Paris and Berlin they are scheming to stiff the rest of the membership in negotiations with the UK. To what end?

It’s a preposterous notion fuelled by eurosceptic propaganda that’s been peddled here for years. If we want to sabotage our own interests fine, but to assume the EU are doing the same is quite an astonishing, and unfounded, claim.

Hugh 07-09-2019 15:15
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009253)
EU and "trust"?:confused: Simply obeying Germany and France is not the same as party politics. There still should be proper scrutiny and not just by one side. Just a few words can change everything, eg "unless and until". The backstop breaks international law which is meant to allow unilateral withdrawal from an agreement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36009254)
What is your source for that allegation?
It doesn't...

The Vienna Convention is very clear that withdrawal should be agreed, not unilateral.

http://theconversation.com/brexit-wh...utation-113591
Quote:
Vienna Convention

So long as the consent of the other party can be obtained, a country can withdraw from any international agreement. This is supported by article 54 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969, which states that the termination of a treaty or the withdrawal of a party may take place (a) in conformity with the provisions of the treaty; or (b) at any time by consent of all the parties after consultation with the other contracting states.

But even if it can’t obtain such consent from the EU to abandon the withdrawal treaty, the UK remains ultimately sovereign. And crucially, supremacy of EU law or of any other international instrument over domestic law does not stem from any international treaties, but from the will of the British parliament.

From this point of view, it really is of no consequence whether the UK has a legal right to withdrawal from the Irish backstop. Article 62 of the Vienna Convention, which allows withdrawal from an international treaty for fundamental change of circumstances, wouldn’t need to be used either.

A country contemplating withdrawing from an international treaty, without meeting the criteria to do so, is not likely to be deterred by the Vienna Convention. Nor would there be an effective enforcement mechanism to compel a country not to withdraw from a treaty, unlike in actions in investment tribunals brought about by private parties which have tangible financial consequences.

Constraints on unilateral withdrawal from the backstop (or the withdrawal treaty in its entirety) are not legal, but political – and those parliamentarians who suggest it would be possible to accept the agreement and then pull out are correct. But there will be consequences, often overlooked by those poring over the legal fine print.

An example from personal finance is useful here. If you stop paying your credit card bill, this may have legal consequences you can live with. Perhaps a bank or a debt collection agency would be willing to settle with you rather than assume the costs of going to court. Even if you’re not worried about the legal consequences, however, damaging your credit score will impact your future business or ability to get another loan.

A similar fate awaits a nation that develops a reputation for ignoring its international obligations. “Computer says no” is a frustrating response to anyone applying for a new credit card. It will be a lot worse when trying to replicate a score of international trade deals after Brexit.
And re Article 62 - this from the Conservative Attorney-General.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47568883
Quote:
Article 62 of the treaty says that if there has been "a fundamental change of circumstances" following the conclusion of a treaty "which was not foreseen by the parties", then the countries involved would be allowed to withdraw from the treaty.

Ms Leadsom declined to have a debate on the matter, saying that Attorney General Geoffrey Cox had considered the matter and would comment further if he thought it was necessary.

Mr Cox said on Tuesday that if there is no solution found to stop the backstop arrangements coming into place, "the UK has no unilateral exit right to leave, unless there were a fundamental change of circumstance under Article 62 of the Vienna convention on the law of treaties".

o, what would count as a "fundamental change"?

Jonathan Kelly, an international law expert at the firm Cleary Gottlieb, said: "A 'fundamental change' might be an outbreak of war, a revolution or something that completely changes the character of the international political landscape."

The International Court of Justice, which rules on such matters, has been clear that it sets the bar very high.

jfman 07-09-2019 15:26
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Indeed did the Czech Republic not fail in a challenge that Czechoslovakia no longer existed on one of these?

nomadking 07-09-2019 15:30
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Link to EU Parliament briefing (pdf)
Quote:
The right of a Member State to withdraw from the European Union was introduced for
the first time with the Lisbon Treaty. Prior to that, the question of the right of
withdrawal was highly controversial. Some authors had argued for the application of
customary international law (clausula rebus sic stantibus, also established in Article 62
of the Vienna Convention on the Law of the Treaties providing for unilateral withdrawal
from international treaties) within the EU framework. Moreover, several constitutional
courts saw a unilateral right to withdraw from the EU as necessary in order to preserve
national sovereignty.
...
The inclusion of a right to withdraw from the Union in the Draft Constitutional Treaty
was based on the premise that such a withdrawal would have been permissible anyway
through application of the general principles of international law.

1andrew1 07-09-2019 15:35
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Lock him up!
If BoJo doesn't obey the laws of Parliament, he could find himself in jail if he refuses to delay Brexit. More BoJail than BoJo then!
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...chief-11804290

denphone 07-09-2019 15:44
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36009261)
Lock him up!
If BoJo doesn't obey the laws of Parliament, he could find himself in jail if he refuses to delay Brexit. More BoJail than BoJo then!
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...chief-11804290
No one is above the law and that includes Prime Ministers..

Hugh 07-09-2019 16:27
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009260)
Well, if I had to choose who to take legal advice from, where the choice is either you or the UK’s Attorney General, guess who I’d choose? ;)

1andrew1 07-09-2019 18:21
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36009260)
That's all about leaving the EU, not the Withdrawal Agreement that the ERG thwarted.

Pierre 07-09-2019 18:27
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36009257)
It doesn't...

The Vienna Convention is very clear that withdrawal should be agreed, not unilateral.

http://theconversation.com/brexit-wh...utation-113591

And re Article 62 - this from the Conservative Attorney-General.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47568883
It doesn’t matter, it’s already been agreed, we triggered article 50 and the EU accepted it.

End of.

Hugh 07-09-2019 18:38
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36009272)
It doesn’t matter, it’s already been agreed, we triggered article 50 and the EU accepted it.

End of.
OK, then...

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1567875461

denphone 07-09-2019 18:53
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
With a General Election inevitable here is the latest polling.

Quote:
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 31% (+10)
LAB: 28% (-3)
LDEM: 19% (+6)
BREX: 15% (-4)
GRN: 2% (-3)

via
@Panelbase
, 05 - 06 Sep
**Chgs. w/ May**
Quote:
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 29% (-2)
LAB: 24% (-)
LDEM: 18% (-3)
BREX: 17% (+3)
GRN: 3% (-)

via
@Survation
, fw TBC
Chgs. w/ Aug

Pierre 07-09-2019 19:07
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36009273)
Indulge me. What have I failed to comprehend?

Sephiroth 07-09-2019 20:00
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36009237)
<SNIP>
If there's one thing he should have learnt from Theresa May and that's no red lines.

We will have an election once Boris honours Parliament's vote on no-deal. Until then, he's distrusted so the opposition parties quite sensibly won't permit an election to take place yet.
i.e. Boxed in.

Carth 07-09-2019 20:04
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36009262)
No one is above the law and that includes Prime Ministers..
short memories

denphone 07-09-2019 22:13
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Another opinion poll that has just been released gives the Conservatives a 14 point lead.


Quote:
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 35% (-)
LAB: 21% (-4)
LDEM: 19% (+3)
BREX: 12% (+1)

via
@YouGov
, 05 - 06 Sep

1andrew1 07-09-2019 22:15
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36009276)
Indulge me. What have I failed to comprehend?
lol, a dangerous question to ask!

denphone 07-09-2019 22:17
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Exclusive from Tim Shipman of The Times.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...n=bbc_politics

Quote:
EXCLUSIVE: Amber Rudd has just resigned from the cabinet. See her interview in the Sunday Times
Quote:
Amber Rudd has resigned the Conservative whip and plans to run as an independent Conservative at the general election. See the Sunday Times

1andrew1 07-09-2019 22:27
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36009301)
Exclusive from Tim Shipman of The Times.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...n=bbc_politics
Can't help being reminded of a certain well-known Queen track.

denphone 07-09-2019 22:32
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36009302)
Can't help being reminded of a certain well-known Queen track.
Will the last rational Conservative to quit the party please switch out the lights please as they are going down like ninepins.

Sephiroth 07-09-2019 22:35
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
She is an arch Remainer who showed her discomfort with her pretence at supporting Boris. Why she accepted a cabinet position is a mystery to me.

Damien 07-09-2019 22:44
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Not really a surprise. She is a rather moderate one nation Tory and would have been one of the rebels had she not been in the cabinet so as soon as they were gone her days were numbers. I think Hancock and Gove might be looking at the writing on the wall too.

Sephiroth 07-09-2019 22:49
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Interesting call on Gove.

1andrew1 07-09-2019 22:57
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36009306)
Interesting call on Gove.
Do you think he might be sharpening his knife? I think Mr K has suggested he might be biding his time.

Sephiroth 07-09-2019 23:08
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36009307)
Do you think he might be sharpening his knife? I think Mr K has suggested he might be biding his time.
Who knows. Anything can happen.

1andrew1 07-09-2019 23:29
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36009310)
Who knows. Anything can happen.
You said "interesting call on Gove", so I wondered if Mr Redwood had shared some gossip with you. ;)

Sephiroth 07-09-2019 23:34
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36009312)
You said "interesting call on Gove", so I wondered if Mr Redwood had shared some gossip with you. ;)
I'm not due to see him before 01-November.

1andrew1 08-09-2019 00:08
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36009313)
I'm not due to see him before 01-November.
Maybe he will see you a little earlier if you announce that you are a valued CF contributor? ;)

Hugh 08-09-2019 01:10
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36009276)
Indulge me. What have I failed to comprehend?
We were discussing/disagreeing on the Vienna Convention, and unilateral/bilateral termination of Treaties, not Article 50...

Hope this helps...

---------- Post added at 00:10 ---------- Previous post was at 00:09 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36009313)
I'm not due to see him before 01-November.
I assume that’s because he’s busy the previous day... ;)

Pierre 08-09-2019 08:54
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36009318)
We were discussing/disagreeing on the Vienna Convention, and unilateral/bilateral termination of Treaties, not Article 50...

Hope this helps...
Not really. It certainly doesn’t help you.

Article 50 is the mechanism in the “Treaty” of Lisbon. Which is a Treaty, is it not? To terminate membership

In the discussion Nomadking claimed the Backstop was illegal because it prevented the unilateral Withdrawl from an agreement. I.e. A.50 Treaty of Lisbon.

You then went off about the Vienna convention, which quite simply doesn’t apply in this instance because A.50 exists in the Treaty of Lisbon for this very purpose.

The backstop isn’t illegal, because it is not binding and we can choose to ignore it if we so wish. But the question over whether agreement of us leaving or not has been answered and is not in question.

So next time you try to put an amusing Gif on a post, make sure you fully understand what it is you’re trying to take the piss out of, or you may look a bit thick.

---------- Post added at 07:54 ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36009300)
lol, a dangerous question to ask!
Not to Hugh it isn’t.

1andrew1 08-09-2019 09:33
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
The most worrying thing about this to me isn't BoJo breaking the law but Ian Duncan Smith's talk of martyrs. That is the language of extremists.
Quote:
Tory grandee Iain Duncan Smith has told Mr Johnson to hold his nerve, saying he would be ‘martyred’ if he chose to break the law and risk a possible jail term for contempt of Parliament.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/07/boris...exit-10701787/

Sephiroth 08-09-2019 10:19
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
The following letter in yesterday's Torygraph says it all:

"The schedule of the Bill being passed this week instructs the Prime Minister to sign and send a letter surrendering his government and its foreign policy to a foreign power - the EU. What we have witnessed is not democracy but the first Vichy Parliament in British history."



---------- Post added at 09:19 ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36009326)
The most worrying thing about this to me isn't BoJo breaking the law but Ian Duncan Smith's talk of martyrs. That is the language of extremists.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/07/boris...exit-10701787/
Typical disingenuous spin. IDS used the term "martyred" in
the sense of "crucified".

If that is the "most worrying thing" to you than I suggest you re-evaluate yourself.

1andrew1 08-09-2019 10:21
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36009328)
The following letter in yesterday's Torygraph says it all:

"The schedule of the Bill being passed this week instructs the Prime Minister to sign and send a letter surrendering his government and its foreign policy to a foreign power - the EU. What we have witnessed is not democracy but the first Vichy Parliament in British history."
As soon as someone tries to invoke WW2 metaphors in this context, you know they don't have a convincing argument. This letter is a prime example, published in a paper that is anti-EU as its rich proprietors the Barclay Brothers dislike attempts to clamp down on their tax lopholes.

Damien 08-09-2019 10:22
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36009328)
[COLOR="Blue"]The following letter in yesterday's Torygraph says it all:

"The schedule of the Bill being passed this week instructs the Prime Minister to sign and send a letter surrendering his government and its foreign policy to a foreign power - the EU. What we have witnessed is not democracy but the first Vichy Parliament in British history."
Says a lot about the loss of perspective some have. Vichy Parliament? Really?

Maggy 08-09-2019 11:29
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49624334#

Quote:
The Conservative Party plans to stand a candidate against Speaker John Bercow for his role in allowing MPs to take control of the Commons agenda.

Business secretary Andrea Leadsom accused the Speaker in the Mail on Sunday of "flagrant abuse" of process.

Breaching convention, the party plans to oppose Mr Bercow in his Buckingham constituency at the next election.
Hmm! I see they are looking for a scapegoat for all their woes..Maybe they just need to look in the mirror.

1andrew1 08-09-2019 11:33
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36009332)
Says a lot about the loss of perspective some have. Vichy Parliament? Really?
It's all getting pretty desperate. WW2 references. Talk of law-breaking and martyrs. Contesting the speaker's seat.
Not the kind of image we should be presenting to the outside world.

Sephiroth 08-09-2019 12:51
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36009332)
Says a lot about the loss of perspective some have. Vichy Parliament? Really?
It's a perfectly good analogy. What's wrong with it?



---------- Post added at 11:42 ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36009331)
As soon as someone tries to invoke WW2 metaphors in this context, you know they don't have a convincing argument. This letter is a prime example, published in a paper that is anti-EU as its rich proprietors the Barclay Brothers dislike attempts to clamp down on their tax lopholes.
Here you go again. A WW2 metaphor is entirely appropriate when we are talking about subservience and sovereignty.

And the rest of your tirade is entirely irrelevant to the topic.


---------- Post added at 11:49 ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 36009338)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49624334#



Hmm! I see they are looking for a scapegoat for all their woes..Maybe they just need to look in the mirror.
What makes you say something like that (see answer below)? Bercow has been top dead centre in mangling parliamentary convention to suit his personal agenda. It might be worth examining the powers that a Speaker has for the future.

Only Remainers who are dedicated to the undemocratic path of defying the Referendum would come out with what you've said.


---------- Post added at 11:51 ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36009340)
It's all getting pretty desperate. WW2 references. Talk of law-breaking and martyrs. Contesting the speaker's seat.
Not the kind of image we should be presenting to the outside world.
Three years of destructive politics by the Remainers in Parliament have told the world what they need to know about UK politics.

Analogies won't affect that and your high horse polemics is ridiculous.

jfman 08-09-2019 12:56
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
What’s Brexit discourse without World War 2 analogies is like “what’s the sound of one hand clapping?”.

Carth 08-09-2019 13:51
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 36009338)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49624334#

Hmm! I see they are looking for a scapegoat for all their woes..Maybe they just need to look in the mirror.
Also taken from the link in by Maggy

Quote:
In 2018 Mr Bercow let it be known he would stand down this summer - his tenth in office.

But earlier this month he told an audience at the Edinburgh festival fringe he would "fight with every breath in my body" to stop the government forcing through a no-deal Brexit by by-passing Parliament.

Last year, Mr Bercow was among MPs accused of bullying by staff in the House of Commons, although he denied the allegations.
The part in bold is questionable for an impartial speaker . . is it not?

jfman 08-09-2019 13:58
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
No Speaker in any legislature is ever going to approve of being bypassed.

Mick 08-09-2019 14:00
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009360)
No Speaker in any legislature is ever going to approve of being bypassed.
They can if they lose their Constituency Parliamentary seat. Which is hopefully what happens to the currently biased little prick in HoC.

jfman 08-09-2019 14:14
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36009362)
They can if they lose their Constituency Parliamentary seat. Which is hopefully what happens to the currently biased little prick in HoC.
In which case he’d not be the Speaker at all.

Nice to see the bad language rules only apply to us proles though. :)

Carth 08-09-2019 14:17
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Interesting reading, his role as speaker may not be all that secure . .

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7739351.html

jfman 08-09-2019 14:21
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36009365)
Interesting reading, his role as speaker may not be all that secure . .

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7739351.html
“archaic and blatantly anti-democratic”

Monarchy, House of Lords...

Pretty much the UK is archaic and blatantly anti-democratic. I, for one, cannot wait for its demise.

Damien 08-09-2019 14:33
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36009345)
It's a perfectly good analogy. What's wrong with it?
It's much too far. The EU are not Nazi Germany and this Parliament are not the Vichy Government. We're not occupied by EU forces. Parliament very much is NOT increasing the powers of Boris Johnson. It's not sending Jewish people in Nazi concentration camps.

In what ways does the analogy make any sense?

It's the same as people saying Boris Johnson staged a coup. The country has lost its mind.

1andrew1 08-09-2019 14:51
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36009368)
It's much too far. The EU are not Nazi Germany and this Parliament are not the Vichy Government. We're not occupied by EU forces. Parliament very much is NOT increasing the powers of Boris Johnson. It's not sending Jewish people in Nazi concentration camps.

In what ways does the analogy make any sense?

It's the same as people saying Boris Johnson staged a coup. The country has lost its mind.
Well explained. I'm genuinely shocked that the events our grandparents fought a war over have been so easily forgotten and false equivalence sought from them. And like him or loath him, BoJo is currently only using the powers legally available to him.

Hugh 08-09-2019 15:01
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36009323)
Not really. It certainly doesn’t help you.

Article 50 is the mechanism in the “Treaty” of Lisbon. Which is a Treaty, is it not? To terminate membership

In the discussion Nomadking claimed the Backstop was illegal because it prevented the unilateral Withdrawl from an agreement. I.e. A.50 Treaty of Lisbon.

You then went off about the Vienna convention, which quite simply doesn’t apply in this instance because A.50 exists in the Treaty of Lisbon for this very purpose.

The backstop isn’t illegal, because it is not binding and we can choose to ignore it if we so wish. But the question over whether agreement of us leaving or not has been answered and is not in question.

So next time you try to put an amusing Gif on a post, make sure you fully understand what it is you’re trying to take the piss out of, or you may look a bit thick.

---------- Post added at 07:54 ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 ----------



Not to Hugh it isn’t.
Bless...

The Vienna Convention provides the overarching rules for treaties - it states that treaties cannot be unilaterally revoked, only bilaterally.

Again, hope this helps.

Mick 08-09-2019 15:06
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36009364)
In which case he’d not be the Speaker at all.

Nice to see the bad language rules only apply to us proles though. :)
You have been reading the wrong rules then.... :rolleyes:

Some forms of swearing have been allowed on this forum for some time. You're just not allowed to swear at or use offensive language at other members and that's the rule.

jfman 08-09-2019 15:12
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
That’s odd because you gave me a warning for swearing (in asterisks) about Jacob Rees-Mogg. Must be on the wrong side of the Brexit debate.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:40.
Page 21 of 24 « First 1117181920 21 222324
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
All Posts and Content are © Cable Forum