re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It doesn't matter. What matters is that it's our system, made by people we elect and can fire if we choose. The fact that it's not perfect doesn't alter that. Changing anything about the EU is undeniably far harder for various reasons, including ones of national interest. Our system has time and time again forced change whether that be to unpopular policies (e.g. academy schools very recently) or indeed unpopular party leaders and governments. So if we're comparing systems I'd argue ours is far from perfect but it's rather better than the EU alternative in which we'll be increasingly told what to do by people who certainly don't have our interests as much at heart as we do.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They could have left but chose not probably for the reason that the terms they could have got would very probably been worse.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Seems a shame that you have to reply with a personal attack on someone who has spent the time & effort to reply to your questions.

People are allowed to have their own opinion, a one different to yours ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed they do I was making comparrisons. You all sing from the same sheet.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If they hadn't been in they could have taken the required economic action unilaterally before things got so bad, as it is staying in the EU/Euro helped mask what was going on for far longer than would have been the case. Leaving the EU and Euro isn't something which can be done quickly.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's cool, it's been a stimulating conversation and a good challenge to my preconceptions which is surely a good thing.

No, I should be OK but it might be interesting how my customers in the pharmaceutical industry are affected. I can easily see some moving from the UK to Ireland over the course of time as there is a huge base there of this industry.

My colleagues who look after transportation and logistics however are going to have a hell of a time

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No you weren't, you were just being rude. Maybe that's what people resort to when they are losing the argument ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Fine but don't read too much into this jobs will be lost thing. Sure some will be but others will be created with new agreements.

The EU couldn't afford to slap big tariffs on us no more than we can them as we need each other to trade. It's just I believe it's better done without being in the club so to speak.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just like the Scottish referendum was the only chance for them to leave and yet it's back on the table already. We can talk about leaving or hold another referendum when ever the public wills it, we can only physically leave once though and now is not that time imo, if it was 2006 I'd be in favour, in fact if I trawled through my posts I'm almost certain I was one of the few advocates for leave back then on here.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Our leaving does not mean we no longer bother with the EU in terms of trade or even relations our relationship will change but it's up to the government how it will change and whether the remaining EU nations want to punish us for daring to question the grand project. Trade flows both ways and benefits both us and the EU there is no practical reason for trade to be impacted too much and jobs wise whatever we might lose we will be more then able to replace when we can arrange our own trade agreements with the rest of the globe.

This doesn't have to be a hostile split and it doesn't need to damage anyone unless people are too inept or petty to make things work. The argument of we can vote out later on is not valid to be honest as the next treaty will make damn sure nations are locked into whatever path is chosen and the ability of individual nations to vote out will be curtailed. If you believe that we can vote out later then you have to believe if we vote leave now we can vote to rejoin later or is it only allowed one way?.

Surely if it's really going to be so bad for us leaving the EU then we will all see the benefits of EU membership within a few years and a UK fully committed to the EU could vote back in, wouldn't that be better for all concerned. Free trade and cooperation were the goals under which the UK originally voted to join the eec and given that has all fallen by the wayside and a single European state is the aim now I think it is better for the UK to go alone and the only reason there is concern in the EU isn't for us citizens of the UK it isn't even concern for the UK it's the fact that if the UK votes out that vote will have to be given to all nations and quite a few are likely to leave.

Better to be the first out then hang in there and hope it all works out which isn't looking great right now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Some guy on Radio 5 Live was saying that Italy and another country (can't remember the name) are on the brink, and if Greece goes tits up as expected we will have to help.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Interesting bit of perspective today: I was in a project meeting with some German engineers and after we did all the main meeting agenda we got onto the Brexit subject. Seems the mood music is very upset about the money that Germany pays into the EU and is "wasted" (Their term) on the Southern EU states like Greece and Italy.

They're not impressed with Merkel letting immigrants flood into their country either.

It was also interesting that there was no concern that Brexit would stop our collaborative efforts on product development.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Germany seem relatively pragmatic and by the accounts I've heard want to ensure we've a fair deal with no 'recrimination' if we do leave the EU.

They have far bigger things on their mind, such as Eurozone stagflation and how much of a bill they're going to receive from the combination of the refugee / migrant crisis, the death throes of the Greek economy and the possible implosion of Portugal and Italy, both of whom are still in deep excreta.

Ah I see Italy have won some 'flexibility'. Spain may not get nailed until after their election for nakedly political purposes, and Portugal are hosed.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/eur...y-on-deficits/

Look at those debt to GDP ratios of Italy and Spain, with no inflation to erode the nominal value of the debt, alongside the deficits in Spain, Greece and Portugal. Delightful.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Last chance. If we don't leave now, given the stated aims of the EU, we never will be allowed to try to again (unless it implodes at some point and we obviously then go down with it).

---------- Post added at 21:15 ---------- Previous post was at 21:12 ----------

Spain, iirc

---------- Post added at 21:19 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------

It's simple.
If you don't mind being ruled by Brussels, vote in.
If you want to have some semblance of self determination in the UK, vote out.
It really is as simple as that.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Unless it's a blowout, unlikely, there even if it is a Remain vote it will immediately be back on the agenda and added to the list of neverendums we have to endure.

Farage has hinted UKIP will be calling for another one if they lose this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36306681

And it looks like the Tories may attempt to depose Cameron early to get a Brextier into that position: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...e-in-david-ca/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Given the way Dodgy Dave has behaved in this referendum I very much hope he is deposed, and he should have a nice position in the EU waiting for him if the electorate reject him. That seems to be the usual place where failed national politicians end up.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I wonder how they'd react if Gove and other Tory 'out' ministers got fired if Brexit fails - their version of democracy seems to be 'only if I win'...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

World War 3 I suspect is going to break out either way. Hopefully to come to a swift conclusion with a good result - this is the governing party and we need them functional.

I despise the duplicity the PM has conducted himself with. It was always thought that he had no interest in leaving but getting caught out bargaining with big business before the 'renegotiation' was complete was a no-no.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Those lined up to replace him are hardly better. Except maybe Gove but even he may have been behind the 'Queen backs Brexit' story. Boris yesterday saying you can't buy bananas in batches of more than 2/3 which is obviously rubbish.

Cameron behaved this way during the election too. I am really not sure why Leave expected him not to go all in on this when his leadership is at stake. They're doing the same thing. They did when IDS resigned, they did when they suddenly started rebelling every chance they get, they've done when they suddenly are 'concerned' about NHS privatisation or Cameron's tax affairs.

Personally I hope they all do badly at this point. If they depose him then we're going to get another 4 years of 'time for a referendum on the EU' and if they don't then they'll gridlock the government for 4 years until he does step down.

The Tories aren't up the task of being the Government anymore as they're far more concerned with their own internal drama to bother with minor things like running the country.

I really hate referendums now. They just make everyone lose their minds.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Referendums are not a problem if both sides in them act and conduct themselves intelligently and provide solid information on all the options. What we have had is akin to a schoolyard fight with childish remarks and stunts from both sides that have shown more about the lack of any real political professionalism then the issue being voted on. Most of it is deliberate in my opinion both sides know most of what they have is hyperbole and no real substance to back any of the claims, people citing the BoE, IMF and CBI and other institutions don't have the solid footing they should from those institutions due to the monumental screwups they have all made with previous recent predictions.

Neither side has given any real substance out for undecided people to help them make an informed choice and on the remain side it's deliberate as typically people who can't find sufficient information to form a personal opinion vote for the status quo. Leave really should have had this in the bag by now but the calibre of representative has probably put more people off then it has helped choose leave. As for David Cameron his position whatever the vote to me is untenable his behaviour given his position has been appealing bordering on desperate and has damaged this country internationally.

If we the British public take nothing else from this debacle i hope the low standards of politicians has becoming glaringly obvious and we start expecting and demanding more in our representatives because in or out if this is the politically best this country has we are in serious trouble.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

:clap:

:clap:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It is that simple. It's no secret they want closer political and monetary integration. In other words, An European Super State.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I was listening to an interview with some leading Polish politicians (including Lech Walesa) yesterday and all of them seemed set against Brexit. Amongst other things there was concern about the effect on the Polish economy of funds being remitted to Poland from the UK by Polish expats possibly drying up. Way to go those Poles eh? They simultaneously help keep the UK and Poland afloat being, despite mostly earning relatively low wages from what I can see, important net contributors to both nations.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It referred to wholesale presentation rather than retail. Doesn't apply to retail but not entirely untrue I suppose. Stretching truth a ton, mind you.

I'm going to a Labour in for Britain event next week with John McDonnell, Pat Glass and Yanis Varoufakis presenting. I'm not especially interested in the first two but am looking forward to the case Varoufakis elucidates. I've heard him speak online about it and while it didn't change my mind it was illuminating.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Illuminating how much of a tit he is? :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Looking at what's happened to Greece since he was prevented from doing his job there with their total subjugation to the troika and their asset stripping by Germany's private sector and others in progress perhaps not so much of a tit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

On the other hand maybe he set the grounds for the subsequent financial castration of his country?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

As it is the supermarket chains that have over the years blamed EU regulations for their suppliers not being able to sell them bananas over a certain bend radius or bent carrots etc, it's hardly surprising Boris got confused.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Please explain the basis for that?

---------- Post added at 11:05 ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 ----------

Perhaps but sloppy and stupid. He's either being dishonest or incompetent.

If anything this campaign has shown what a shower of excrement our politicians are.

In the case of many their grasp of basic facts has been showing as lacking. In some cases there's that along with a devious and dishonest streak a mile wide.

I genuinely couldn't care less about the partisanship, just look at the utter shower we have in charge right now. It's no wonder public confidence in politicians is so low. About the only thing many seem able to do competently is be dishonestly manipulative. Though what can be expected when so many's previous jobs and subsequent ones offer no value to the economy and trade off family contacts and in the future those they made while MPs.

That's those who have actually worked outside of politics.

Look across all benches and the old boys/girls network is in full flow, meritocracy be damned. If you know the right people you're put up in a safe seat where the population would vote for a turd if it has the right colour rosette and you're in.

When you're done with those you then look at the Labour politician incubator, the NUS, and all you can do is shake your head.

After that look at how up to their elbows in corporate interests and lobbyists the Tories are. Then the level of control unions have given how the Labour party is funded. The revolving door between the Liberal Democrats and the EU. UKIP's associations. The SNP that seem to exist purely to blame Westminster for everything and score populist points.

Ugh.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What a difference a referendum makes eh...

The UK's been treated (understandably) like an irritant to the EU for years and even told to get out if we don't like it but now, suddenly, when we're actually considering that possibility, we're told that upon the UK's membership the EU's future (and all manner of other vital things) seems to rest. IMHO it says a lot about those running the EU show that they're apparently now so worried about Brexit and queueing up to tell us to stay yet just a few months ago were prepared to offer precious little by way of reform in order to make it happen and in so doing save the EU and avoid WWIII.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Asked a colleague kinda jokingly if Netherlands would be leaving the EU, his responses:

However he notes:

Definitely agree that a much looser relationship between more similar nations could work. UK is bloated and too large, too many countries with too many differences.

I would be very much in favour of free trade and maybe, conditionally, more between the British Isles, Scandinavian nations, Iceland, Netherlands. An EU 2.0 doing it right, based around mutual prosperity and advancement rather than using economic reasons as a cover for political union.

May even be something the Swiss and Norwegians would find attractive.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Aye that's one solution all right.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Worries me that should vote out ,do we have enough competent politicians to run the country without Brussels to fall back on /blame

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's occurred to me, it provides a nice convenient excuse currently. The big boys made me do it. It's an EU thing, we have to do it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I honestly believe at this point the EU is more of a negative then a positive it is not democratic at all with too many unelected offices and powerful advisory boards that even over rule the parliament when it suits them. I do think it is possible for all European nations to trade and work together for the common good and be a beneficial thing for all nations involved but that is not the EU. The dream of a federal superstate is driving everything and nothing will be allowed to obstruct that end.

Europe is too diverse to ever be a single entity and whilst an illusion of success may be possible in the short term longer wise it will fail and likely badly so massively impacting all nations involved. Voting to leave ironically may be the way to a better way and future for all European nations and a better progression globally in terms of trade. I think it's important that the distinction between anti EU and anti European is highlighted as most of the people I know myself included are fully anti EU but pro European and the fact that some have decided being anti EU automatically means your anti European further highlights how far we have fallen in our attitudes.

Whilst this referendum has shown UK politicians to be what many of us have known for a while the UK is not the only nation with lazy and incompetent politicians it's Europe wide another side effect of the EU as no matter how badly most politicians perform nationally they are able to obtain lucrative careers in the EU after they get voted out. We need to leave not just for us but for everyone in the EU and only when we leave do we have a chance to rectify our domestic political situation a good start would be an end to professional politicians as we gave that a try and it's been a disaster let's get back to ordinary people from real life and pop the Westminster bubble once and for all.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

With Boris as the King-in-waiting, your point is very valid. Michael Heseltine certainly thinks Boris is not No. 10 material:

Boris Johnson Lacks The Judgement To Be Prime Minister, Says Lord Heseltine

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Heseltine sold his soul to the EU decades ago. No surprise that he would personally attack Boris as an EU nemesis.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I agree that being anti EU certainly isn't being anti-Europe. I want the whole of Europe to be a happy, safe, prosperous place and anyone who doesn't must surely be insane. The EU plainly isn't achieving this, quite the reverse right now. IMHO it's a good idea taken much too far and very badly implemented by arrogant, singled minded, empire building, bureaucrats who will not listen and would rather insist on homogenising the member states than celebrating difference, facilitating trade, developing cultural links etc.

The UK leaving will only hasten the demise of the EU but that is probably going to be the only way to create something better.

---------- Post added at 18:10 ---------- Previous post was at 18:07 ----------

The usual suspects indulging in the usual slurs. It's going on in both directions but IMHO the orchestrated attack by the remain side is increasingly reminding me of the SNP's nasty tactics. Let's just hope they're similarly unsuccessful.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It does seem to be the only way to reform the EU. Tinkering at the edges is pointless.

I just hope it backfires on those idiots.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think i agree with Heseltine ,Boris is probably ok as a mayor or possibly even a Minister but can you imagine Boris and Trump/Hilary trying to solve major world issues ....doesn't bare thinking about :Yikes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Boris Johnson is a very astute individual and far from the buffoon he gives the image of at times which makes me curious what he is up to because his latest speech was bad but he's just another of the current crop of politicians not fit for purpose. I don't think things have ever been as bad politically as they are right now the whole class is an utter shambles and disgrace to the UK. This referendum is about a single and simple issue (in terms of the question) of do we stay or leave the EU but has been turned into a farce by both sides and all it's accomplished is to muddy the waters for those who wanted information to help them make a choice.

Thankfully my vote was decided sometime ago which is just as well because neither camp has given me reason to choose them although remain getting every tom, dick and harry involved with scare tactics and threats would have pushed me to the leave side more because I'm stubborn and don't like bullies or threats and instinctively go the opposite way.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I recall having an argument with Nigel De Gruchy a few years ago. He was banging on about what a clown Boris was/is and until I reminded him that 'Boris the clown' had comfortably defeated his preferred choice (Red Ken). Not bad for a clown eh? :D

Let's be honest, although some are far worse than others, none of our current crop of politicians are beyond reproach or criticism. As usual the public's choice boils down to the least worst option and that's the choice we're faced with at the forthcoming referendum. Getting out is the least worst option.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

BBC 1 8pm tonight showed this: Jeremy Paxman on the EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Now what was all that about the UK's veto?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36330025

So the EU is so concerned that we stay in the club that we have to lose out veto to do so...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Have we ever had a great class of Politicians in our time? I can't think of a time where Tory or labour I've said; 'what a great set of Politicians we have this time.'

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Thatcher was the last great one.
Shame about the wasted promise of Blair......:(

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Wash your mouth out! You obviously don't live in the N/E.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Great and popular are often not synonymous.;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Frankly it's become Chicken Little time again..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Now it's the future of the NHS that will be affected by brexit it just doesn't end a constant stream of fear mongering and scare tactics from both side's, I'm so sick of it and we've got weeks to go yet.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It gets more stupid every day. BSE are getting desperate.

Anyhow I would have thought the NHS was in much greater danger with EU meddling from Brussels and the desire for uniformity of goods and services across the whole EU than being run, regulated and financed by our own government.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Apparently all those British 'luvvies' would suffer artistically should we leave the EU ,films won't get made and groups won't be able to tour unless we are part of the EU ,wonder how Hollywood and all those American bands touring Europe manage

http://news.sky.com/story/1699062/ce...or-remain-vote

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yeah Blair always leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth... :sick:

---------- Post added at 16:02 ---------- Previous post was at 15:58 ----------

The great and the good at it again I see. I'm surprised they have time for all this stuff when they're not taking in migrants, tackling poverty, preaching morality etc. etc. etc.

Odd how so many of them don't mind living lives of such privilege and affluence when others around them struggle and starve...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Has the sky fallen in yet? I have to admit I've pretty much zoned out now, as far as the EU referendum is concerned. For me it's settled, I am voting leave, unless the remain campaign can wind their hysteria in a bit and give me some believable reasons.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Even if they did you'd have to ask why they waited so long to employ those arguments and preferred instead providing the electorate with an unremitting diet of fear and exaggeration. It's perfectly possible to come out on one side or the other whilst at the same time acknowledging the down sides inherent in so doing.

---------- Post added at 16:17 ---------- Previous post was at 16:07 ----------

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36331903

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I really fear for the NSH if we remain in the EU. They have overspent to the tune of over £2.5 billion this year. This, they say is due mainly to hiring Agency Staff. However, the main reason is immigration. Even if it's 3 million by 2030 the NHS will be put under severe strain, more than it is now. Let's get out of the EU and train our own to do these jobs in the NHS be they foreigners living here after we leave or home grown Brits. Surely, with the money we'll save we will be able to train people in our own country?

IMHO I think the Immigration/NHS issues should be more than enough to swing a leave vote.

---------- Post added at 16:57 ---------- Previous post was at 16:35 ----------

Is your vote decided on issues regarding the EU or is it that you are just Pro or Anti EU? I've always been against being part of Europe and I still have my reasons from 1975 to back me up as well as more recent things like:

The NHS:

I believe we should be training people from this country to do the jobs in the NHS.

Jobs:

If we kerb immigration and don't have all these people coming in from the EU then surely it stands to reason that there will be more jobs for those already living in Britain? I don't know the exact figures of overseas or EU Citizens brought in to work here because we don't have the skills but surely we can train our own Citizens to do these jobs? Whatever these figures are they relate to that many jobs for those already living here.

The Economy:

The initial money we save from not being in the EU will set us up to be able to begin training our own people as well as shoring up the NHS. Of course, I realise that this money we save initially will dwindle as trade agreements with EU countries are formed and when Leave say we'll save X amount of money being out of the EU they mean initially, not every week, month or year. It's a fantastic amount of money and could put Britain back on our feet. If Firms leave it's no great loss. Other jobs will be created with new trade agreements with the EU and other countries we'll be free to trade with thus encouraging new and more Firms into the UK.

Sovereignty:

Leaving the EU will free us up to have our own laws instead of them being forced on us by Brussels. I don't say they are all bad but we would be able to alter them to suit the needs of the UK, not the EU.

Our Parliament will be making the laws that Govern the country and not the EU.

We would not need to be worried about breaking EU law in most cases. The Grocer who was taken to court for displaying fruit and veg in imperial instead of metric weights for example would never have happened and would not happen again. This is what we, the Leave Camp mean by stupid laws. That chap is now deceased and was from my area but he should never have been taken to court over that.

Our Parliament would make the laws on immigration and not the EU. We would have the say who can and can't enter Britain.

Oh there is lots more.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The NHS is getting totally swamped with the extra work load because of the EU's open border policy and ,correct me if i'm wrong , i don't see the EU jumping to help fund it ,once out we can restrict the numbers entering and relying on our NHS .That is common sense not scaremongering Damien.
Incidentally the same applies to our education system as well

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I deleted my post because I couldn't really be bothered but none the less.

Now obviously more people creates more demand for public services and there may well be problems in specific areas of the country, we haven't a good enough job at things like that.

However there isn't much evidence that the wider NHS is getting swamped by EU migration. It may be 'common sense' but there are other factors to consider such as immigration trending younger than the general population and young people are rarely being a cost issue for the NHS. What's more these people contribute as well and if they go back before hitting old age then they're a net benefit. The NHS is swamped with elderly care, obesity and diabetes.

Here is a good article on it: https://fullfact.org/immigration/imp...blic-services/

In short it's very debatable, with pros/cons. It's not as obvious as common sense suggests that immigration is bringing down the NHS.

---------- Post added at 19:15 ---------- Previous post was at 18:51 ----------

On another note. Ryanair are trying to wind up Leave campaigners: http://www.cityam.com/241549/eu-refe...-by-vote-leave

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So Brian could be correct in his assertion. Let's face it, when it comes to immigration in this country and what the 'common man' says about it, first he is called a racist for saying it, then he is ignored, then what he has been saying becomes accepted as a self evident truth.
I therefore expect that in a decade or so, the government will release a report showing that immigration did indeed impact negatively on the NHS. :dozey:

Hell, we already have local authorities begging for more money to fund the schooling of all the extra non English speaking kids that they've been lumbered with. :shrug:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Which is fine. I am not disputing that immigration, especially large immigration into one area, can impact on local services. I am saying though that when you take the NHS as a whole there isn't a whole lot of evidence the organisation is being hurt by immigration and it might even be a good thing. Even aforementioned local effect is disputed.

Arguing these things on 'common sense' can be a mistake because we need to be able to quantify these things and not go on assumptions. Whilst it seems self-evident that an increasing population puts a strain on the NHS it doesn't have to be the case. It assumes that everyone uses the NHS equally which we don't and it ignores contributions from those immigrants as well as the fact it's staffed by many immigrants too.

What would be interesting is the figures on how many EU migrants retire here or how many go back. I believe in London the time for EU migrants tends to be fleeting, a period of their young adulthood, before they return. I can't find numbers on that though so it's speculation.

Also plenty of what 'the common man' says now will equally turn out to be rubbish too. Too often that term is used to throw out baseless assertions whilst trying to insulate the speaker from criticism back.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's the 'common man' that will be voting and it's the common man that can't get an appointment at his GP surgery because ,as he sees it ,immigrants are choking up the areas resources .Whether that's true or not is of no consequence ,the common man will vote on what he sees

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Ryan air carrying on the remain tradition of cheap shots I'm really fed up with all of this and wish I could go to sleep and wake up on the 23rd of June because this is all getting really pathetic and how we must look internationally right now I dread to think. Both sides have small people chasing their agenda and despite rhetoric on both sides are doing tremendous damage to the UK. I'm tired of this shower insulting the intelligence of us all and trying to mushroom us all and then expecting us to support them.

Watching things degenerate for the last three decades has decided my vote Brian and if I wasn't already decided I'd be struggling as many must be at the complete lack of substance put forward by both sides in this referendum. Given both groups had the time to organise their campaigns the fact it's ended up like this speaks volumes for the quality of our politicians. If there is a single thing that totally galvanised my vote it was Ukraine and the way that the EU got involved trying to get them into the club created huge tension with Russia and now has basically left Ukraine to it with token measures.

That one incident shows the damage the EU is capable of and the continuing eastward expansion has been paused not abandoned and when they start it up again I'm not sure how Russia will react but I'm not hopeful on a good outcome. This tunneled vision pursuit of a European super state is the threat to peace and security not whether we leave or stay in an increasingly desperate dream.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Now you've hit the nail on the head. Go into a surgery or hospital in the North East of England for example and you could be the only, at the risk of sounding racist, 'white person' there. That's not so bad where I live now but in my last area I used to sit waiting to see the doctor and play "spot the Brit."

Of course, this next point has nothing to do with immigration or the EU but on the subject of the NHS: The problem as I see it is that because surgeries are shared or merged it is hard to get an appointment in your area. Why should you have to travel several miles to another part of the practice to get a quicker appointment when you want one? My problem here is my disabled scooter won't take the journey there and back if I can't get the appointment when I want in my area. I can't get the bus, because I can't walk more than 10 feet when I get off. Taxis are expensive. This is just one example.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Another breakfast of fear served up by HMG. This time it's the Chancellor and house prices which will plummet if we dare to leave the EU. Yes our houses will drop and interest rates will increase, but there was I thinking this might not be an entirely bad thing. They keep tinkering around the edges trying to make housing more affordable and promising to more but the one thing which they say would really do that, evidently, they're dead set against.

:spin:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36344425

My God how did we ever survive outside of the Euro-club? :confused: :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Chicken Dave running scared: Prime Minister REFUSES to take part in head-to-head EU debates

chicken Dave yesterday struggled to bat away claims he had become scared of Ukip leader and Brexit campaigners Nigel Farage.

The Tory leader instead confirmed he would instead face off against members of the public in 'town hall' style televised discussions.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/672...d-blue-on-blue

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sounds like Gideon has shot himself in the foot. A drop in house prices will appeal to young first time buyers, just the demographic that currently support continued EU membership. They could see a Brexit vote as a positive thing now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Both are using scare tactics..are we children to be scared of the monsters under the EU bed?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's just another day though dominated by a bad story about leaving the EU though and less room for a bad story about staying the EU. I am guessing they're deploying a deliberate strategy here...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

yes if its trying to get the money out of the mattress ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Get the bad news in before those pesky folks who believe in the UK's sovereignty get up eh? ;)

Having made up my mind it's irrelevant, but if I were on the fence I'd be tempted to vote out just to stuff it to these damned people.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I would have thought that would be a good thing an 18% drop in house prices. Just think of those who can't get on the property latter at the moment falling over themselves to snap up these houses. Bring it on. Let's get a cheap hoose by leaving the EU. I wonder if he realises what he's saying if others think like me?

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 ----------

Just as he did in the Scottish Referendum. Said it was up to the Scots to decide to justify not going head to head then they all interfered in the last week.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Since when does being in the EU prevent house prices collapsing ,I seem to remember house prices collapsing whilst in the EU during the 1990's and 2007 -09

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think they're just trying to reinforce the notion of Brexit = economic risk and they know being way over the top grabs headlines. It also sidelines what Leave are saying so their message simply doesn't get across. Even if people dismiss it as scaremongering it's sticks in the mind. Like Obama's intervention the point isn't to win friends but seed fear and doubt.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

just watched paxman in Brussels on i player
quite interesting worth a watch .

here it is on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD4sSFq_nWg

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The FT puts this speculation into perspective

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5e560a76-1...#axzz49I9J6L1B

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

BREXIT BLOCK: PM refuses to publish letters to business bosses in pro-EU lobbying campaign

more conniving by Dodgy Dave


http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...ess-referendum

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why do you and others keep posting links to articles where a subscription is required?

Seems stupid to me, instead of you putting your perspective on it you wish me to pay to see what your perspective is????

Don't spammers do something similar?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

it deters cheapskates like me from reading it ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That policy didn't go well for Goldsmith did it.

I really think it's going to be seen by many of the undecided as completely OTT and likely to seed a good deal of resentment.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I've got a few properties but I'm still going to vote out. I'd happily vote out even if it was guaranteed that my properties were going to drop 18% in value. It's worth voting out to regain our sovereignty.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I know what you mean and, of course, we know from experience that there's no reason why staying in is going to preclude a fall in prices. Some say quite the reverse...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This referendum is great for some they can sit all day and indulge their fatalistic tendency and get it in the media my biggest question for the remain side is this, if EU membership is so fantastic so positive for life in general why are so many already and more everyday wanting to leave this great institution why are so many of us unable to see all these positives. As for Cameron the man is fast becoming a complete joke and makes me cringe I just can't take him seriously anymore. Sadly given our current situation where is the alternative there is nothing credible anywhere in the current political class. This whole thing has me being embarassed to be British and the damage this has done to the UK is going to take some repairing whether we are in or out of the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I tend to agree that Cameron hasn't handled this at all well. IMHO the remain campaign is pathetic. It's all very well passionately supporting a cause but the way things are being done is pathetic.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

To be perfectly honest i don't think the Brexit campaign is doing any better .Given the mood of the nation towards Brussels over the last few years you would think any leave campaign would be doing much better than it is but sadly i think it will be much too close for comfort .Hopefully i'm wrong and the polls are as rubbish as they where in the general election.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I agree in part but the difference is that I've at least heard those arguing to leave admit that there will be difficulties. All we seem to get from HMG is doom if we leave and nothing at all positive in return.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sorry, I viewed this OK and I don't have a subscription, it was not meant to be some sort of subterfuge. I should have tested the link after I posted it!

Now I am aware of the issue I would delete it if I could, but it won't let me!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Leave has one obstacle that I don't think they can overcome a media that seems very much in the remain camp and is biased that way allowing remain to dictate terms of debates and seizing every remain scare story and broadcasting\publishing it whilst most of what I have seen of leave has almost been parody coverage. This whole thing has been a badly organised and run shambles and on the remain side I think it's deliberate annoy enough people to the point they are sick of it and hope that apathy carries to the voting booth a very clinical and devious strategy but one completely in keeping with their campaign so far. Leave has a massive wall to climb just getting exposure but they have also handled things badly in their choice of representative.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well the Media will be biased on this I mean an out of the EU is less news coverage for them at least without overcoming obstacles first

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This is the sort of media coverage i like :)

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/672...-figures-Turks

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Leave has two of the largest papers in the country backing them. The Sun and the Daily Mail, in addition to The Telegraph and Express. They're also not above using fear themselves, see the aforementioned stuff on Turkey.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Leave did make one sensible choice, No Farage!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

the man who has campaigned to leave for years :shocked:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If it wasn't for him, would there even be a referendum?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

i doubt it
but its hard to ignore 4 million voters but dodgy dave would if he could get away with it .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

In the balance of fear it's quite clear which side has employed the most. It seems to me that if being in the EU is so great, they ought to need to rely on fear tactics a lot less than the other side which are having to argue for a situation which doesn't exist - far more of an unknown. Maybe they won't concentrate on what's so great about being part of the EU because it's fundamentally flawed.

---------- Post added at 13:31 ---------- Previous post was at 13:29 ----------

Whether this survey is robust or not it almost irrelevant. It's perfectly obvious that a great many people from Turkey will want to migrate west as has been the case with every other relatively poor nation which has joined the club. The UK will be amongst the top destinations.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yep and an awful lot of voters will believe it regardless of the accuracy

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Let's hope so because whether the survey was conducted fairly is irrelevant to the reality of what will happen. Sooner or later Turkey will join in yet another EU fudge and the flow of migrants will start, further depressing the wages of the ordinary man in the street and bringing with them the inevitable problems attendant with rapid population growth. Mind you, it'll all be OK because GDP will increase... :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not so much the Accuracy as the time they take to join. If it takes 10 years we will still be in if we don't leave now. There wouldn't be another vote on the EU for another 50 years and Turkey will be a full member long before that. So YES vote LEAVE now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How was the poll re Turkey 'fear'? :confused:

---------- Post added at 15:03 ---------- Previous post was at 15:02 ----------

Nope. The man deserves a knighthood.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Fear of the truth... ;)