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-   -   Unstoppable migration? (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33698108)

Osem 23-06-2017 10:35

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
It is quite bizarre how some people just cannot accept any downside with these levels of immigration. It's like they've been brainwashed into believing that any criticism of it is tantamount to blind racism and xenophobia and has no foundation in reality. These same people tend to whine on about lack of services, housing etc. without for a moment acknowledging how difficult it is for those services and our infrastructure to cope with such huge and rabid population growth, let alone make progress. Despite having 1.5m unemployed of our own, their argument seems to be that we need more migrants to do the jobs which need to be done (most being low skilled) and make up for our increasingly aged population. It's not temporary migration tough is it. Our population has been growing (largely as a result of migration) by around or the last 1,000,000 every 3 years for well over a decade so what does that tell us about the future? The proponents of uncontrolled migration have nothing to say about how we're going to cope with the increasing demands placed on our services when the migrants themselves grow old. Maybe they think we can just keep importing more people ad infinitum or maybe their stance is a political one and for reasons best known to themselves they'll only be happy when the UK has 100m people, 150m, 200m... It'd be nice to think that even they will have some sort of upper limit in mind but what are their plans going to be to suddenly stop any further immigration when that point is reached and just what is our environment going to be like at that point? Have they really given any thought to this at all I wonder? Population growth on this scale is unsustainable for all sorts of reasons but it's not easily reversible. That isn't racism it's something called FACT. Once the damage is done it's done and the lack of foresight evident amongst those who support uncontrolled migration is as astounding as it is worrying.

Pierre 23-06-2017 14:01

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35904428)
We're short of fruit-pickers so that assertion is wrong as I fear all your others are too. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business

Thank you for acknowledging my point.

Which was that they are all not, blindingly obviously, here to work the land or work in our NHS as some would have you believe.

Ramrod 23-06-2017 19:38

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Excellent post Osem :tu:

Chrysalis 25-06-2017 23:39

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35904411)
UK population rise of 538,000 is biggest for 70 years
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40372533

60% due to net migration.

Of course they're all NHS nurses, fruit pickers, hotels workers etc so that's fine.

That is a huge number although not all of it is immigration.

It shows how much investment we need in public infrastructure to sustain this population growth.

Social housing
NHS
Education
Policing
Roads
Social Security (welfare)

Whilst it may seem the solution is to stop immigration, that alone would create a bigger staffing problem for services such as the NHS and also would not address the remaining circa 250k annual growth in the population.

I read a big barrier to new housing asides from the private companies deliberately building slow (to maintain supply and demand balance) is the difficulty acquiring land to build properties on. This country probably needs to do two major shifts in policy.

Mass social house building.
Compulsory purchases of land from private landowners.

Osem 26-06-2017 14:06

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35904826)
That is a huge number although not all of it is immigration.

It shows how much investment we need in public infrastructure to sustain this population growth.

Social housing
NHS
Education
Policing
Roads
Social Security (welfare)

Whilst it may seem the solution is to stop immigration, that alone would create a bigger staffing problem for services such as the NHS and also would not address the remaining circa 250k annual growth in the population.

I read a big barrier to new housing asides from the private companies deliberately building slow (to maintain supply and demand balance) is the difficulty acquiring land to build properties on. This country probably needs to do two major shifts in policy.

Mass social house building.
Compulsory purchases of land from private landowners.

We have had net immigration of around 350,000 for well over a decade and yet we're still being told the jobs these people were supposedly coming to the UK to do are vacant. How is that? I reckon it's because most of the people coming here aren't doing the jobs we really need them to do they're doing the jobs they want to do. We are being told they're keeping the NHS afloat when there's a total of about 10% (IIRC) of migrants in the NHS and yet we're still seeing well over 350,000 extra migrants every year. They're clearly not all going into the NHS are they.

No the figure isn't all immigration but the bulk of it is and the you can add on top the higher birthrates prevalent amongst migrants which also add to our huge population growth.

You can build as many homes as you like but at what point are we going to say enough is enough? Homes need roads, services etc. where are they going to come from. We cannot build our way out of the housing problem unless we can control population growth at a manageable level. We're talking about having to build the equivalent of 2 cities the size of Oxford every year just to keep pace with net migration. Where do you suggest all these houses are built and how are they going to be serviced?

Taf 26-06-2017 16:52

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
It has been announced that "settled" migrants will be able to bring in their families after brexit. The thin end of the wedge before real negotiations get rolling.

Chrysalis 26-06-2017 23:10

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35904879)
We have had net immigration of around 350,000 for well over a decade and yet we're still being told the jobs these people were supposedly coming to the UK to do are vacant. How is that? I reckon it's because most of the people coming here aren't doing the jobs we really need them to do they're doing the jobs they want to do. We are being told they're keeping the NHS afloat when there's a total of about 10% (IIRC) of migrants in the NHS and yet we're still seeing well over 350,000 extra migrants every year. They're clearly not all going into the NHS are they.

No the figure isn't all immigration but the bulk of it is and the you can add on top the higher birthrates prevalent amongst migrants which also add to our huge population growth.

You can build as many homes as you like but at what point are we going to say enough is enough? Homes need roads, services etc. where are they going to come from. We cannot build our way out of the housing problem unless we can control population growth at a manageable level. We're talking about having to build the equivalent of 2 cities the size of Oxford every year just to keep pace with net migration. Where do you suggest all these houses are built and how are they going to be serviced?

Whatever way you want to look at it we cannot pretend there is a solution without investment. Even with no immigration we will have net population growth.

I suggest a combination of managing population growth and investment.

Management can be achieved by applying quotas to immigration, as well as limiting the amount of social security payments to large families to discourage constant breeding.

However we need some form of growth, and growth is natural anyway, so we have to also invest more in infrastructure so yes that means.

Housing
Roads
Schools
Hospitals
Police
Social Security
Other forms of public servers etc.

This is funded by growing GDP, and not irresponsibly cutting taxes just to keep a wealthy few happy, we probably should be increasing taxes right now not decreasing.

The barrier to this is the amount of people in the UK (probably a majority) who think society is not important and everyone should just look after themselves. As a result people dont like paying taxes.

The stuff I listed, was happening routinely throughout the 50s,60s and 70s before we had a shift of thinking from the 80s onwards.

The only way we could consider what we doing now as reasonable is to start killing people to avoid the growth.

Also 10% of NHS staff is not some insignificant number, thats a lot of people, also I expect they congregated in certain parts of the country e.g. I think well over 10% of NHS staffing in Leicester is manned by immigrants or immigrant parent families. Nearly every pharmacist is owned by asians in Leicester as well, may well be british born asians but at some point in their family tree probably migrated to here from India or Pakistan.

Nearly all my delivery drivers from tesco are not white british, pretty much every taxi driver is not white british, my postman is a muslim, these people arent just benefit unemployed scroungers, many do contribute to the country. So alot of the blame is from governments not investing in infrastructure to handle the growth.

Been blunt I would say infrastructure is far more important than government debt, even if we went bankrupt I would say it has to be done. The current thinking is very short termist.

Also there is money been spent but very badly.

Think how many homes the HS2 costs would pay for.

To this day ignition is probably the only high earner I have seen admit on a forum he would accept paying more taxes. Just about everyone else who has the means see's it as theft.

ianch99 26-06-2017 23:18

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35905007)
Whatever way you want to look at it we cannot pretend there is a solution without investment. Even with no immigration we will have net population growth.

I suggest a combination of managing population growth and investment.

Management can be achieved by applying quotas to immigration, as well as limiting the amount of social security payments to large families to discourage constant breeding.

However we need some form of growth, and growth is natural anyway, so we have to also invest more in infrastructure so yes that means.

Housing
Roads
Schools
Hospitals
Police
Social Security
Other forms of public servers etc.

This is funded by growing GDP, and not irresponsibly cutting taxes just to keep a wealthy few happy, we probably should be increasing taxes right now not decreasing.

The barrier to this is the amount of people in the UK (probably a majority) who think society is not important and everyone should just look after themselves. As a result people dont like paying taxes.

The stuff I listed, was happening routinely throughout the 50s,60s and 70s before we had a shift of thinking from the 80s onwards.

The only way we could consider what we doing now as reasonable is to start killing people to avoid the growth.

Totally agree. The 80's was the turning point: Governments in the Uk and the US started telling people that greed is good. they also said that if you can get money, you should keep as much as you can. Me first, followed by Me second, and Me third and possibly forth.

If there is any left then maybe I will think about giving some to "charity".

We are in a Me first society and not a We first society. We should take some lessons from the Nordic Model although there are some things that do not seem appropriate.

Maybe we should start the cull with the immigrants?

Osem 28-06-2017 22:27

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35905007)
Whatever way you want to look at it we cannot pretend there is a solution without investment. Even with no immigration we will have net population growth.

I suggest a combination of managing population growth and investment.

Whatever the investments we make, a rapidly increasing population at the level we're experiencing doesn't solve the problems we're facing with an ageing population, it just delays and compounds them. HS2 would but lots of homes but those homes in themselves require services and infrastructure which cost yet more money. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy just like the M25 - build more lanes and more cars just fill them up...

---------- Post added at 21:27 ---------- Previous post was at 21:25 ----------

And over in Eurolalaland:

Quote:

Italy has threatened to stop vessels of other countries from disembarking migrants at its ports.
It comes as Italy's representative to the EU, Maurizio Massari, warned in a letter to the bloc the situation had become "unsustainable".

Prime Minister Paolo Gentiloni has accused other European nations of "looking the other way".
An estimated 10,000 people are believed to have attempted the journey from North Africa in the past four days.
More than 73,000 migrants have landed in Italy this year, an increase of 14% on the same period last year.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40437917

Maybe the Italians should just build loads of new homes eh?... :rolleyes:

RizzyKing 29-06-2017 17:28

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
There is no level of realistic investment that can keep pace with the level of immigration we have had for too long now it just isn't possible without bankrupting the country. We have a limited level of social resources and we have to not just cut the numbers coming in but deporting the large number that are here that shouldn't be. It isn't going to be pleasant and it isn't going to be easy but it's got to be done the situation in some areas is already creating issue's and it's spreading to more areas.

We have had a period of austerity we have crumbling public services and communities that have had their entire balance interfered with creating unnecessary social tension. All because one group of cretinous politicians wanted to play a big social experiment thank you new labour and gutless politicians afterwards thank you conservatives that did nothing beyond rhetoric to correct it.

Osem 29-06-2017 19:08

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35905618)
There is no level of realistic investment that can keep pace with the level of immigration we have had for too long now it just isn't possible without bankrupting the country. We have a limited level of social resources and we have to not just cut the numbers coming in but deporting the large number that are here that shouldn't be. It isn't going to be pleasant and it isn't going to be easy but it's got to be done the situation in some areas is already creating issue's and it's spreading to more areas.

We have had a period of austerity we have crumbling public services and communities that have had their entire balance interfered with creating unnecessary social tension. All because one group of cretinous politicians wanted to play a big social experiment thank you new labour and gutless politicians afterwards thank you conservatives that did nothing beyond rhetoric to correct it.

Some of us have been saying that for years. It's quite evident from around the globe that this scale of uncontrolled migration creates serious pressures and tensions. These were masked during the so called 'boom' years but now things have been much tougher economically, the problems are becoming much more apparent and they're only going to get worse. There's not only the tensions with the host population but between the myriad of nationalities who've been allowed to come here in large numbers bringing their rivalries with them. Not exactly a recipe for quiet co-existence...

It's quite evident that there's been no foresight applied to this problem and migration has been used by successive governments to suit themselves - Labour in terms of social engineering but both parties in their blind pursuit of increased GDP the 'easy' way. Forget the difficult stuff like productivity, lets just expand the population to make the number grow. If we thought we had an age/pensions time bomb a decade ago, well it's going to get a lot worse and the answer is to have controlled migration but to restrict those who are allowed to remain and gain citizenship rights. That's the unpalatable reality and the longer we leave it the harder it will be to tackle these problems.

The same applies to the mass migration we are seeing in Europe and elsewhere. It can't be allowed to continue because there are countless millions around the globe who'd like a new life somewhere else and the more who're taken in, the more will come, the more desperate they will be and the harder they will fight to be accepted. What we have now is chaos which is being exploited by people traffickers and causing many economic migrants to take their chances. We can't accept them all but where are our leaders in deciding at what point enough has to be enough?

RizzyKing 29-06-2017 20:05

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Add to that there is growing opposition to immigration in a number of EU states this is not just a problem within the UK and it has to be sorted out starting now because I don't want to start seeing headlines of violence against immigrants. My biggest criticism at all the western european governments is this race to the bottom they are all engaged in when we should be spending the time and resources being wasted atm raising these other countries up in standards rather then lowering ours down which is not tenable for much longer.

Osem 29-06-2017 20:27

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35905638)
Add to that there is growing opposition to immigration in a number of EU states this is not just a problem within the UK and it has to be sorted out starting now because I don't want to start seeing headlines of violence against immigrants. My biggest criticism at all the western european governments is this race to the bottom they are all engaged in when we should be spending the time and resources being wasted atm raising these other countries up in standards rather then lowering ours down which is not tenable for much longer.

It definitely is not just a UK problem as Angela Merkel will find out in due course.

daveeb 29-06-2017 20:27

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35905007)
Whatever way you want to look at it we cannot pretend there is a solution without investment. Even with no immigration we will have net population growth.

I suggest a combination of managing population growth and investment.

Management can be achieved by applying quotas to immigration, as well as limiting the amount of social security payments to large families to discourage constant breeding.

However we need some form of growth, and growth is natural anyway, so we have to also invest more in infrastructure so yes that means.

Housing
Roads
Schools
Hospitals
Police
Social Security
Other forms of public servers etc.

This is funded by growing GDP, and not irresponsibly cutting taxes just to keep a wealthy few happy, we probably should be increasing taxes right now not decreasing.

The barrier to this is the amount of people in the UK (probably a majority) who think society is not important and everyone should just look after themselves. As a result people dont like paying taxes.

The stuff I listed, was happening routinely throughout the 50s,60s and 70s before we had a shift of thinking from the 80s onwards.

The only way we could consider what we doing now as reasonable is to start killing people to avoid the growth.

Also 10% of NHS staff is not some insignificant number, thats a lot of people, also I expect they congregated in certain parts of the country e.g. I think well over 10% of NHS staffing in Leicester is manned by immigrants or immigrant parent families. Nearly every pharmacist is owned by asians in Leicester as well, may well be british born asians but at some point in their family tree probably migrated to here from India or Pakistan.

Nearly all my delivery drivers from tesco are not white british, pretty much every taxi driver is not white british, my postman is a muslim, these people arent just benefit unemployed scroungers, many do contribute to the country. So alot of the blame is from governments not investing in infrastructure to handle the growth.

Been blunt I would say infrastructure is far more important than government debt, even if we went bankrupt I would say it has to be done. The current thinking is very short termist.

Also there is money been spent but very badly.

Think how many homes the HS2 costs would pay for.

To this day ignition is probably the only high earner I have seen admit on a forum he would accept paying more taxes. Just about everyone else who has the means see's it as theft.

Well apart from the going bankrupt bit that's a great post, especially the last paragraph :clap:

Osem 29-06-2017 20:45

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
The 'going bankrupt' bit would be the inevitable result. ;)

daveeb 29-06-2017 21:03

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35905645)
The 'going bankrupt' bit would be the inevitable result. ;)

So the tories would have everyone believe.

RizzyKing 29-06-2017 21:04

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
No it's economic fact if we're talking about current immigration numbers.

TheDaddy 30-06-2017 09:09

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35905009)
Totally agree. The 80's was the turning point: Governments in the Uk and the US started telling people that greed is good. they also said that if you can get money, you should keep as much as you can. Me first, followed by Me second, and Me third and possibly forth.

If there is any left then maybe I will think about giving some to "charity".

We are in a Me first society and not a We first society. We should take some lessons from the Nordic Model although there are some things that do not seem appropriate.

Maybe we should start the cull with the immigrants?

Funnily enough the Nordic countries always come top of the happiness polls, perhaps there might just be a correlation...

heero_yuy 30-06-2017 09:39

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Nearly one in ten people living in Britain are foreign, a major international study shows.

The 5.95million is double the proportion of a decade ago and has been bumped up by a recent influx from the EU, according to a report by the Paris-based Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

The OECD said EU nationals accounted for “all the growth” in 2014-2015.

It also revealed UK had the third highest rate of “permanent” immigration in the advanced world in 2015 at 378,800 – below only the United States and Germany – it added.
Source

We're drowning in them. :(

Osem 30-06-2017 12:03

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35905685)
Source

We're drowning in them. :(

In 2015 maybe we were behind Germany but I don't suppose that was the case before Merkel's welcome. Therein lies the UK's problem, these figures aren't sporadic blips, they show a consistent trend over a decade and a half. There's still no credible plan to control immigration and toughen up the rules on citizenship. Without those things the population will continue to grow along with all the attendant pressure on services, infrastructure, the environment and social unrest.

papa smurf 30-06-2017 12:53

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35905681)
Funnily enough the Nordic countries always come top of the happiness polls, perhaps there might just be a correlation...

it's vodka ;)

Osem 30-06-2017 15:07

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35905719)
it's vodka ;)

... and one day unless they change their policy they'll wake up not so happy but it'll be too late. That's what a lack of foresight in matters such as these does. I'd rather we acted before it's too late.

TheDaddy 04-07-2017 10:08

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35905719)
it's vodka ;)

It's gotta be something, what with their cars being so dull they'd rather commit suicide than drive them

ianch99 04-07-2017 12:10

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35906113)
It's gotta be something, what with their cars being so dull they'd rather commit suicide than drive them

Yeah, boring :)

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2017/07/1.jpg

Kursk 04-07-2017 14:14

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35906116)
Yeah, boring :)

Is it scalextric? No fully-grown adult would be seen dead in that. Richard Crashbang Hammond might like it though.

Osem 04-07-2017 23:40

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
I see Austria's migrant welcome has turned a bit frosty with troops now being mobilised to prevent them crossing into the country from Italy. Wasn't that long ago that Austria was being lauded by some around here as some sort of role model for migrant welfare...

Quote:

The Austrian military is preparing to stop migrants coming from Italy amid sharpening rhetoric ahead of elections.
Seven hundred and fifty soldiers, including Pandur armoured vehicles, stand ready to go to the Austrian-Italian border at 72 hours notice, Austria’s defence minister, Hanspeter Doskozil, told the Kronen Zeitung newspaper, an Austrian daily, on Monday (3 July).
https://euobserver.com/migration/138425

TheDaddy 05-07-2017 03:52

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35906116)

Yes really, really boring. Seriously Ian don't make me post more pics, I don't want to be responsible for someone taking their own life

ianch99 05-07-2017 08:54

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35906196)
Yes really, really boring. Seriously Ian don't make me post more pics, I don't want to be responsible for someone taking their own life

You are looking at the past like so many here :) Look to the future!

papa smurf 05-07-2017 17:18

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35906116)

has it got a tow bar

Kursk 05-07-2017 18:38

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35906275)
has it got a tow bar

I didn't know ianch99 was a hairdresser btw ;).

TheDaddy 05-07-2017 20:46

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35906200)
You are looking at the past like so many here :) Look to the future!

No thanks, it looks bleak, I'll be older for a start to :Yikes:

heero_yuy 06-07-2017 10:15

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Meanwhile Austrian border guards greet migrants:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/at...4&d=1499328787

Attachment 27004

Kursk 06-07-2017 14:14

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35906335)
Meanwhile Austrian border guards greet migrants:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/at...4&d=1499328787

Attachment 27004

B-b-but what happened to free movement of people :D?

papa smurf 06-07-2017 14:26

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kursk (Post 35906373)
B-b-but what happened to free movement of people :D?

their free to move up to the fence

Kursk 06-07-2017 14:33

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35906377)
their free to move up to the fence

Yep, that's the deal we want too :)

papa smurf 06-07-2017 14:39

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kursk (Post 35906386)
Yep, that's the deal we want too :)

free to stand on the beach in france ;)

OLD BOY 06-07-2017 14:48

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35906377)
their free to move up to the fence

Yes, and they are also free to make the decision not to participate in target practice.

---------- Post added at 13:48 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35904408)
If we are short of construction workers it's likely a good percentage of the shortage are UK citizens who have left the building trade because of constant undercutting from firms with high levels of migrant workers. In my own family two have swapped their building careers for other trades as they got fed up of having to compete against the foreign workers. More foreign workers isn't the answer in the construction industry and will only serve to create a larger issue when they all leave in the future. Apart from the usual knuckle dragger groups i haven't heard a single person talking about shutting our borders and not allowing anyone in that's absolutely stupid we of course need skilled people coming in to fill shortages granted I'd prefer it to run alongside proper effective training schemes to train our own citizens to do the jobs but you can't have everything in life.

We have allowed ridiculous levels of immigration into the UK in the last 20 years numbers we won't be able to adequately support for decades and we have to get the figures back to a semblence of reality ideally without another labour government to run another social experiment and i think they got off light over that whole incident.

Agreed. We should only be allowing in those who have the skills we need but which are in short supply in the UK, together with those who legitimately want to study here on the understanding that they will return at the end of their studies if they don't fit into our skills shortage immigration policy.

This, together with a good training strategy for our own citizens, will keep control of immigration and relieve the overwhelming pressure on housing and public services.

heero_yuy 08-07-2017 12:07

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

A new vessel will shortly join the flotilla looking for migrants in the choppy waters of the Mediterranean.

Yet the Suunta — a ship crowdfunded by shadowy far-right group Generazione Identitaria — is clearly not on a mercy mission.
The extremists’ firebrand Italian leader, Lorenza Fiato, 23, says: “Migrants breed like rabbits. They literally replace the native population in some neighbourhoods. We are being replaced in our own cities.”

Generazione Identitaria — known as the Identitarians — says it wants to preserve Europe’s national identities against a migrant “invasion”.

Already steaming towards Sicily, the Suunat will later this month attempt to turn back the flimsy dinghies laden with *people escaping poverty and conflict in Libya.
Source

A bit different to the migrant ferry service laid on by misguided charities.

Osem 08-07-2017 12:23

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35906671)
Source

A bit different to the migrant ferry service laid on by misguided charities.

Entirely predictable except in the world occupied by those who can't see beyond the ends of their noses. This situation is already a humanitarian disaster and something decisive needs to be done before it gets really nasty. I wonder how many emergency meetings the EU have had now...

Osem 08-07-2017 18:55

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Europe is "underestimating" the scale and severity of the migration crisis and "millions of Africans" will flood the continent in the next five years unless urgent action is taken, a senior European official has warned.

The dire prediction from Antonio Tajani, president of the European Parliament, came as Paris evacuated almost 3,000 migrants sleeping rough from a makeshift camp near the city centre - the 34th such evacuation in two years.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...arns-european/

Can anyone seriously deny this? By welcoming migrants of all types (the minority actually genuine refugees) Europe has opened floodgates it's going to find very hard to close. The politicians can't keep fudging this issue.

Kursk 08-07-2017 19:14

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
As predicted years ago by Colonel Muammar Gaddafi.

Mr K 08-07-2017 20:36

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kursk (Post 35906719)
As predicted years ago by Colonel Muammar Gaddafi.

Mmmm yes...

If any of these Africans are qualified nurses or Doctors we should take them. We could send boats over, a bit like Dunkirk.

richard s 08-07-2017 22:04

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Surely their own people will need Doctors and Nurses...

TheDaddy 09-07-2017 03:33

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35906749)
Surely their own people will need Doctors and Nurses...

:confused:

When's that ever stopped us before

OLD BOY 09-07-2017 18:53

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35906749)
Surely their own people will need Doctors and Nurses...

One little thing you have overlooked old chap is that these people cannot get away quickly enough!

Mr K 10-07-2017 09:11

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35906885)
One little thing you have overlooked old chap is that these people cannot get away quickly enough!

Well EU staff can't get away from the UK fast enough. They are leaving in droves adding to the staffing crisis
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...-nhs-brexit-eu
All part of the Brexit dividend and our hatred of those that have had the cheek to come here and care for our ageing population.

papa smurf 10-07-2017 09:18

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35907000)
Well EU staff can't get away from the UK fast enough. They are leaving in droves adding to the staffing crisis
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...-nhs-brexit-eu
All part of the Brexit dividend and our hatred of those that have had the cheek to come here and care for our ageing population.

more jobs for locals

Mr K 10-07-2017 09:27

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35907002)
more jobs for locals

That would be the untrained locals, who are aren't prepared to take out loans to be trained, or work for NHS wages ?

papa smurf 10-07-2017 09:36

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35907004)
That would be the untrained locals, who are aren't prepared to take out loans to be trained, or work for NHS wages ?

a big thank you to mr K for supporting his own country men/women :clap:

RizzyKing 10-07-2017 10:31

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Oh fgs he's off again "hate" nobody with half a brain hates anyone working here in our care system be it the NHS or the many care organisations and companies that employ many and we have a lot in our town it being a retirement town and they are not leaving in droves either. You really are an alarmist of the lowest kind happy to spew any rubbish as long as it's against brexit why don't you just leave the UK and go to your beloved EU then we will all be happy unless of course you don't believe what you say because if you do isn't it a no brainer for you.

papa smurf 10-07-2017 10:36

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35907019)
Oh fgs he's off again "hate" nobody with half a brain hates anyone working here in our care system be it the NHS or the many care organisations and companies that employ many and we have a lot in our town it being a retirement town and they are not leaving in droves either. You really are an alarmist of the lowest kind happy to spew any rubbish as long as it's against brexit why don't you just leave the UK and go to your beloved EU then we will all be happy unless of course you don't believe what you say because if you do isn't it a no brainer for you.

crowd funding for the plane fare :shrug:

Kursk 10-07-2017 15:27

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35907019)
why don't you just leave the UK and go to your beloved EU

Well said Rizzy :)! There's a nice camp just across the Channel for Monsieur K .

OLD BOY 10-07-2017 17:30

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35906735)
Mmmm yes...

If any of these Africans are qualified nurses or Doctors we should take them. We could send boats over, a bit like Dunkirk.

Do you have any spare rooms in your house, then, Mr K?

Osem 10-07-2017 18:33

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35907142)
Do you have any spare rooms in your house, then, Mr K?

What you mean like Sir Bob, Yvette cooper and all their self righteous celebrity chums who jumped on the 'house a migrant' bandwagon? :D

Osem 15-07-2017 12:55

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
And this is the reality of the EU's migration refugee/asylum policy in the Med:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-e...-mediterranean

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40504374

deadite66 15-07-2017 13:27

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Italy plots ‘nuclear option’ to send migrants north

Quote:

Senior Italian government figures have threatened to allow 200,000 migrants who have reached its shores to travel across Europe by exploiting a little-known Brussels directive as the country struggles to cope with a huge rise in refugees fleeing north Africa.
Spoiler: 
Senior Italian government figures have threatened to allow 200,000 migrants who have reached its shores to travel across Europe by exploiting a little-known Brussels directive as the country struggles to cope with a huge rise in refugees fleeing north Africa.

A minister and a senator are plotting to issue migrants with temporary EU visas in a move that has been described as a “nuclear option” for solving Italy’s refugee crisis.

Paolo Gentiloni, the prime minister, is livid that the rest of Europe has refused to take its fair share of migrants and that they have closed ports to rescue ships as the number of refugees attempting the treacherous crossing from Libya to the Continent has surged.

Mario Giro, the deputy foreign minister, and Luigi Manconi, a senator with the ruling Democratic Party, told The Times that issuing migrants with temporary visas was under discussion.

Mattia Toaldo, a senior analyst at the European Council on Foreign Relations, said: “If migrants continue to arrive and Italy decides to give them papers to cross borders and leave Italy it would be a nuclear option. Italians have lost any hope of getting help from the EU and may say, ‘If you won’t make it a common challenge, we will.’ ”

Mr Giro and others from the Democratic Party believe that Italy can exploit European Council Directive 2001/55, which was drafted after the Balkans conflict to give temporary European entry permits to a large number of displaced people.

Such a move would present an existential problem to the Schengen scheme, which allows all EU citizens to travel freely across the Continent.

It would also cause a diplomatic war with France and Austria, with whom Italy shares borders. The two countries have used dogs and the threat of armoured vehicles to push back migrants who try to enter by that route.

Mr Manconi said: “Letting migrants travel once they reach Italy would create a real problem for our EU neighbours. But I hope it would force France to confront the migrant problem head on.”

The plan would also be a sweet revenge for Rome, which has been forced by Brussels to open so-called hotspot centres to house, care for and process migrants sailing to Italy. In return, other EU states were supposed to accept a quota of migrants but they have reneged on the agreement.

More than 86,000 migrants have reached Italy this year alone — a 10 per cent increase on the same period the year before. In total the number of migrants in detention centres across Italy has reached almost 200,000 people, the country’s capacity.

“The EU wants Italy to keep migrants in hotspots for months and be a deposit for arrivals, which is unacceptable,” Mr Giro, who supports the visa plan, said.

Directive 55 was drawn up to offer EU states “exceptional” measures to offer “immediate temporary protection” in Europe to displaced people. While Mr Giro admitted that invoking it would require approval from EU members, and that opposition was likely, he said that officials were also discussing a second option last used when Silvio Berlusconi was prime minister, at the beginning of the Arab Spring.

In 2011 Italy invoked Article 20 of its so-called Bossi-Fini law that allowed it to hand temporary “humanitarian” visas to thousands of Tunisians who sailed to Italy during the Arab Spring, allowing them to go straight to France.

Mr Giro said: “We’d rather not use unilateral methods though, because the resulting dispute could wreck the Schengen treaty.”

Although the Italian government has not yet adopted the EU directive plan, any official threat to do so would echo threats made by Turkey to overwhelm Europe with migrants.

Yesterday the Italian coastguard disembarked 1,428 migrants, 100 of whom were children, at the Sicilian port of Catania. With traffickers earning at least €800 per passenger for the crossing from Libya, their takings this year alone are €68 million, helping to keep much of the Libyan economy afloat. That sum compares with the €45 million the EU has earmarked this year to help Libyan development programmes.

Italy’s border with France is already tense — both on the ground and politically. It is estimated that 13 migrants have died since September in or around Ventimiglia, some of whom were electrocuted while clinging on to trains.

This week a 23-year-old man from Gambia who had been sent back to Ventimiglia by French police after crossing into France stepped into the path of a lorry and was killed. There were suggestions that it was a deliberate act.

President Macron of France has said that most of those who travel to Italy are economic migrants rather than refugees, and he will not allow them into France.

Luigi Di Maio, the Five Star MP tipped to become Italy’s next prime minister, excoriated Mr Macron yesterday, blaming him for “the real refugee camp” now set up at Ventimiglia, which is packed with migrants removed from French streets.

“If Marine Le Pen had done that, the whole of Europe would be screaming ‘Xenophobia’,” Mr Di Maio said.

Italy’s borders with France and Austria fall within the Schengen zone, but the scheme benefits only EU citizens, allowing police to turn back migrants from outside Europe. This year the biggest group of migrants arriving in Italy comprises Nigerians, followed by Bangladeshis. A temporary EU permit supplied by Italy would allow the migrants — most of whom want to travel to northern Europe — to do so.

An EU deal struck in 2015 to distribute 160,000 migrants from Italy and Greece around Europe has been boycotted by eastern European members. Only 7,396 have been transferred from Italy, with Romania taking a mere 45.

Osem 15-07-2017 13:39

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
It wouldn't surprise me. I think a number of countries have long been 'rubber stamping' large numbers of migrants and letting them head off elsewhere and I can understand why they'd do that for several reasons.

They're quite right about the blatant double standards evident too. Not a peep when an EU minister claims millions will swamp the EU but rabid screams of right wing extremism, racism etc. when Nigel Farage rightly predicted what has happened. It's so easy to shout, scream and hiss at the messenger when you don't like the message isn;t it but the facts and images are out there for all to see.

1andrew1 15-07-2017 21:28

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35907008)
a big thank you to mr K for supporting his own country men/women :clap:

Um, Mr K's wife is British and works for the NHS. :confused:

Taf 15-07-2017 21:37

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35907938)
And this is the reality of the EU's migration refugee/asylum policy in the Med:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-e...-mediterranean

Destroying the boats they arrive in has always seemed like a great idea to me. Preferably before the traffickers recover the engines. Or whilst they are doing so.

nomadking 15-07-2017 22:05

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
If Italy was allowed and had a very hard border to the north, or better still further south within Italy, how many of them would come? Do they see Italy as their final intended destination?

Osem 19-07-2017 19:10

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Meanwhile back in Blighty...

Quote:

The number of foreign-born mothers having babies in England and Wales in 2016 reached 28% - the highest level on record, official statistics show.
This figure has increased every year since 1990.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40655563

Taf 19-07-2017 20:44

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
1 in 4 births to a foreign-born woman.

We are being invaded?

RizzyKing 19-07-2017 20:50

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
We are being bred out and sooner then a lot think will the UK become a minority white nation not right wing knuckle dragging just fact birth rates in the white group are already low and last i heard still dropping though that was a couple of years ago so might not be applicable now. It's another of those subjects no one is supposed to talk about lest they immediately be labelled racist and incur the wrath of those more enlightened then anyone who dares raise the issue.

Osem 07-08-2017 15:37

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
An interesting read about how a US management consulting firm was brought in by the German government to help speed up their struggling asylum system and the repercussions thereof. Essentially speeding up the decision making system to reduce the huge backlog of applications but resulting in a significant increase in mistakes being made and a vast number of appeals now clogging up the courts.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.758ed19deea5

They may understand how to make efficiencies but do they understand the legal systems or do they even care? Sound familiar?

I reckon politicians put rather to much faith in 'consultants' than they should but of course they rather like being able to take any credit going whilst having the option of blaming the consultants when it all goes wrong. The consultants carry on talking the talk, picking up their millions and saying what their paymasters want to hear...

Taf 14-08-2017 14:55

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
"Co-existence can only work in Germany if we all speak German" and wants all immigrants to learn the language.

Maybe that should extend to the Turkish "guest workers and their families. Or the tens of thousands Merkel let in?

Or just those who speak English?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/…/german-minist...-people…

1andrew1 24-08-2017 00:28

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Daily Telegraph The Home Office has ordered an official review of Britain's immigration figures after new exit checks at the borders found there may be fewer immigrants in the country than previously thought.
The Government will reveal on Thursday that new border checks introduced last year found 97 percent of international students - one of the biggest groups of immigrants - left after finishing their studies.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ers-far-lower/

RichardCoulter 27-08-2017 18:42

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
We keep being told that we need foreign workers to run our economy, however, with automation on the horizon there won't be enough jobs anyway.

If we are to allow EU migrants, refugees, economic migrants etc into our country (even those where it can be proved that they will benefit the UK holistically), the very least that we should do is make their entitlement to stay time limited whilst it suits and benefits us.

In time their will not be enough jobs for those morally and legally entitled to be here, let alone anyone else.

A citizens income may well have to be introduced, but it will be expensive and should be limited to certain residents to keep costs down.

Mick 21-09-2017 14:18

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
35 Men found in 3-bedroom house in London, majority if them said to be Eastern European.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/20/rogue-...-home-6942510/

Come here for better life, yeah sure or to do very cheap Labour for a rogue employer.

But forget London, this is widespread, I live next to a property where about 20 Romanians lived. They did not follow refuse rules, just chucked their crap and their babies nappies in the alleyway. They have since moved out but they left the house and outside it, a right mess, curtains with burnt holes in them, hanging out of the windows.

I have said before, not against anyone coming here from afar, bringing with them skills needed for the jobs market, but I'm against this shambles, 35 men crammed in to a house.

Osem 21-09-2017 16:00

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35917353)
35 Men found in 3-bedroom house in London, majority if them said to be Eastern European.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/20/rogue-...-home-6942510/

Come here for better life, yeah sure or to do very cheap Labour for a rogue employer.

But forget London, this is widespread, I live next to a property where about 20 Romanians lived. They did not follow refuse rules, just chucked their crap and their babies nappies in the alleyway. They have since moved out but they left the house and outside it, a right mess, curtains with burnt holes in them, hanging out of the windows.

I have said before, not against anyone coming here from afar, bringing with them skills needed for the jobs market, but I'm against this shambles, 35 men crammed in to a house.

It is widespread and during an interview I heard on Radio London last night, I'm not surprised. A housing official was being interviewed about the case was very keen to stress that their aim wasn't to do the Border Agency's job for them and alert anyone to the presence of any illegals. Now why would that be? What sort of official policy would there be that deliberately turned a blind eye to illegality? It's just this sort of misguided thinking which leads to more people being exploited whether they be illegal or not. It's almost as if certain sections of our society don't want us to know the true extent of what's going on. Our towns and cities are full of exploitation like this and just as was the case with the child abuse scandal, very little is being done about it. Given the attitude of the official mentioned above I can understand why. If they came across a whole load of illegals they'd rather see them disappear off to get exploited somewhere else than report them to the proper authorities. It's nuts that we have sections of the public sector effectively working against each other.

The scale of fraud being committed is staggering. Does anyone seriously think the rogue landlords and any illegal tenants are paying tax, paying their way, being a net contribution to our society? That's just the start. How much benefit money is getting paid in one way or another to landlords operating premises just like this one and what do we imagine these people are using the money for or involved in? Charitable works or more criminal enterprise and exploitation?

RichardCoulter 24-05-2018 18:56

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Been on the news that the amount of recent immigration has contributed to the fact that we are to face a water shortage in the future.

Mr K 24-05-2018 19:02

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 35947858)
Been on the news that the amount of recent immigration has contributed to the fact that we are to face a water shortage in the future.

It's also caused a lot of NHS posts to be filled and tax income to be raised Look to climate change more than immigrants.

RichardCoulter 24-05-2018 20:01

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Yes, other reasons (including climate change) were also given for this projected water shortage.

Hugh 24-05-2018 20:56

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 35947858)
Been on the news that the amount of recent immigration has contributed to the fact that we are to face a water shortage in the future.

Can you provide a link, please, Richard?

I can only find climate change and population growth as the factors given, not immigration.*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44215418
Quote:

The big questions for the future, according to the Environment Agency, are the impacts of climate change and population growth.
If you read the source report

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ces_report.pdf

Page 8 & 9
Quote:

Climate change
Climate change will affect the amount and timing of rainfall that supports river flows and replenishes groundwater. It will also influence the demand for water and its quality, as well as the way land is used – all of which will put pressure on water resources...

...Population growth
Population growth will continue to be one of the biggest pressures on water resources. The population of England is predicted to increase to 58.5 million by 2026.27 Many of the growth areas are in places where the water environment and water supplies are already stressed.

Projections suggest that if no action is taken to reduce demand and increase supply of water, most areas will not meet demand by the 2050s under high greenhouse gas emissions and high population growth scenarios. Even low population growth and modest climate change scenarios suggest significant water supply deficits by the 2050s, particularly in the south-east.
No mention of immigration in the source report.

*population growth is not just immigration.

richard s 24-05-2018 21:03

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
One of the things I am amazed at is that with the increase in new houses being built there are no new water reservoirs being planned. Here in the south-east a water company (Southern Water) stated that if we do not get a steady winter rainfall that there will be a water shortage in the summer.... Really!

Mr K 24-05-2018 21:24

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35947892)
One of the things I am amazed at is that with the increase in new houses being built there are no new water reservoirs being planned. Here in the south-east a water company (Southern Water) stated that if we do not get a steady winter rainfall that there will be a water shortage in the summer.... Really!

Maybe they should be building desalination plants. We've got plenty of sea and it's ever rising !

techguyone 24-05-2018 22:07

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35947893)
Maybe they should be building desalination plants. We've got plenty of sea and it's ever rising !

This or, yanno, pipe it down from the wet parts, it's not Mission Impossible.

RichardCoulter 24-05-2018 23:17

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35947889)
Can you provide a link, please, Richard?

I can only find climate change and population growth as the factors given, not immigration.*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44215418

If you read the source report

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ces_report.pdf

Page 8 & 9 No mention of immigration in the source report.

*population growth is not just immigration.

It was stated on the BBC News channel today when they were discussing the report in more detail and focussing on population growth.

It won't all be down to immigration, but I think a lot of it will be down to immigrants moving here and then having children. The practice of having large families (especially since the invention and provision of contraception) has reduced massively, so I don't think it will be that.

---------- Post added at 22:11 ---------- Previous post was at 21:55 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35947859)
It's also caused a lot of NHS posts to be filled and tax income to be raised Look to climate change more than immigrants.

Not all immigration is bad for the UK, it's ridiculous that we are letting in those that contribute little or nothing, yet are deporting doctors that we are short of!

Yes, those that work are making a contribution, either financially, or filling hard to fill vacancies or in skill shortage areas. However, looking at the wider picture, even those that are working still need somewhere to live, will need require NHS resources, education, ante natal care and be claiming in work benefits.

...and will be using water!

I can't remember the specific country if was, but a Radio 4 programme highlighted a country that used to have water as plentiful as we currently have. When the water had to be rationed, they were reduced to having to do things to limit their water consumption e.g.

- Adopting a toilet policy of 'If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown flush it down'.

- Limiting the number of showers and the time taken to have one.

- Putting a bucket in the shower to catch the used water to use for the toilet.

- Putting containers outside to catch any rain to water plants, flush the toilet or give to pets.

- Reusing water used to boil vegetables again and again. When it can no longer be used, it still isn't thrown away, it's used to water plants!

I hope that we don't get to this stage over here.

One thing that water companies could do is to offer to fix all leaks for free. We ourselves can take measures too, but it's not always as simple as it seems. Some people find that their shower pump stops working after a water saving head is fitted and a friend, who owns a hotel, put brick type things into his toilet cisterns. He ended up having to take them out again because the reduced water flow stopped the sewage from being carried away to the main sewer and thus caused a blockage!

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:11 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35947892)
One of the things I am amazed at is that with the increase in new houses being built there are no new water reservoirs being planned. Here in the south-east a water company (Southern Water) stated that if we do not get a steady winter rainfall that there will be a water shortage in the summer.... Really!

Pre privatisation there used to be reservoirs that specifically created a reserve stock. Once privatised, this land was sold off.

As a shareholder in a water company I did argue at the time that this was a very short sighted decision.

1andrew1 24-05-2018 23:21

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35947901)
This or, yanno, pipe it down from the wet parts, it's not Mission Impossible.

That would cost the water companies money so unlikely unless regulations change.

Mr K 24-05-2018 23:22

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 35947923)
It was stated on the BBC News channel today when they were discussing the report in more detail and focussing on population growth.

It won't all be down to immigration, but I think a lot of it will be down to immigrants moving here and then having children. The practice of having large families (especially since the invention and provision of contraception) has reduced massively, so I don't think it will be that.

---------- Post added at 22:11 ---------- Previous post was at 21:55 ----------



Not all immigration is bad for the UK, it's ridiculous that we are letting in those that contribute little or nothing, yet are deporting doctors that we are short of!

Yes, those that work are making a contribution, either financially, or filling hard to fill vacancies or in skill shortage areas. However, looking at the wider picture, even those that are working still need somewhere to live, will need require NHS resources, education, ante natal care and be claiming in work benefits.

...and will be using water!

I can't remember the specific country if was, but a Radio r programme highlighted a country that used to have water as plentiful as we currently have. When the water had to be rationed, they were reduced to having to do things to limit their water consumption e.g.

- Adopting a toilet policy of 'If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown flush it down'.

- Limiting the number of showers and the time taken to have one.

- Putting a bucket in the shower to catch the used water to use for the toilet.

- Putting containers outside to catch any rain to water plants, flush the toilet of give to pets.

- Reusing water used to boil vegetables again and again. When it can no longer be used, it still isn't thrown away, it's used to water plants!

I hope that we don't get to this stage over here.

One thing that water companies could do is to offer to fix all leaks for free. We ourselves can take measures too, but it's not always as simple as it seems. Some people find thag there shower pump stops working after a water saving head is fitted and a friend, who owns a hotel, put brick type things into his toilet cisterns. He ended up having to take them out again because the reduced water flow stopped the sewage from being carried away to the main sewer!

Well that's another consequence of privatisation Richard, the consumer comes last, and profits first. How something as basic as water was privatised is absurd. However migrants are a convenient scapegoat for everything. They contribute more than they take, we are an ageing population, we need immigration.

RichardCoulter 24-05-2018 23:30

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
I agree Re: privatisation (even though I lay myself open to accusations of being hypocritical).

I can't understand why, if as claimed, we need more people in the UK, the Government is doing all it can to limit people here from having children with its benefit cuts. Surely, people should be being bribed into having children if this is the case. This was the original intention of Family Allowance (now Child Benefit).

Perhaps they believe it to be better to let another country pay to raise a child and then 'import' them here as adults??

We are creating a rod for our own back by doing this with mass automation around the corner. There won't be enough work for those currently living here, let alone any more.

OLD BOY 25-05-2018 01:06

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35947859)
It's also caused a lot of NHS posts to be filled and tax income to be raised Look to climate change more than immigrants.

Wot? NHS posts being filled? Oh, joy, crisis over.

---------- Post added at 00:01 ---------- Previous post was at 00:00 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35947901)
This or, yanno, pipe it down from the wet parts, it's not Mission Impossible.

Wot? And have that Sturgeon woman hold us to ransom?
No fear!! :Yikes:

---------- Post added at 00:06 ---------- Previous post was at 00:01 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35947931)
Well that's another consequence of privatisation Richard, the consumer comes last, and profits first. How something as basic as water was privatised is absurd. However migrants are a convenient scapegoat for everything. They contribute more than they take, we are an ageing population, we need immigration.

Left wing propaganda.

You would not get the investment in the first place without privatisation. Profits are gained through eliminating inefficient public sector practices. I'd have thought that should have sunk in by now.

This left wing mantra is getting annoying now. I can only assume they don't believe it themselves and think that the more they chant it the more it will get chanted back.

denphone 25-05-2018 06:21

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35947931)
Well that's another consequence of privatisation Richard, the consumer comes last, and profits first. How something as basic as water was privatised is absurd. However migrants are a convenient scapegoat for everything. They contribute more than they take, we are an ageing population, we need immigration.

Nothing like blaming Johnny Foreigner for all of our great ills when many were of our own making as when many of them are gone home who will get the blame them Mr K.

OLD BOY 25-05-2018 10:20

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35947966)
Nothing like blaming Johnny Foreigner for all of our great ills when many were of our own making as when many of them are gone home who will get the blame them Mr K.

Nothing wrong with foreigners in this country in my book, as long as they don't take the p***. The Asians that came here during Idi Amin's rule, for example, knuckled down when they arrived and made an excellent contribution.

The problem is when you just lock open the doors to hordes of people when there's not enough housing to accommodate them and when our services cannot cope with further increases in numbers. Immigration needs to be regulated or you create an unacceptable burden on the people who already live here.

The problem with the EU on this issue is that it doesn't care about these practical problems, and its undemocratic nature means that it doesn't care about the impact on the population. It's the continuing failure by the EU to acknowledge this problem, let alone address it, that has caused so many people to call for immigration to be controlled, only to be called racists!

My God, what a shambles.

Carth 25-05-2018 12:36

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Excellent post OB :tu:

I'm sure some people won't agree, but probably one of the influencing factors of the Brexit vote for many.

A finite amount of resources cannot be shared efficiently among an infinite amount of people

RichardCoulter 25-05-2018 14:20

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
I agree. From what those who voted leave say to me, this is the main reason why they did so. Not one has mentioned sovereignty etc.

Mr K 25-05-2018 16:40

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 35947992)
I agree. From what those who voted leave say to me, this is the main reason why they did so. Not one has mentioned sovereignty etc.

They are going to be disappointed because Brexit is going to make very little difference to the levels of immigration.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8326101.html
Quote:

Britain is set to make an offer to the EU on future immigration which would see arrangements “very similar” to current free movement rules put in place after Brexit, The Independent has learned.

OLD BOY 25-05-2018 17:55

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35948005)
They are going to be disappointed because Brexit is going to make very little difference to the levels of immigration.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8326101.html

Well, let's see what 'very similar' actually means. I dare say that those Europeans we actually need in this country will not notice much difference. The ne'er-do-wells may have a different experience.

Ramrod 25-05-2018 18:29

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35947859)
It's also caused a lot of NHS posts to be filled and tax income to be raised

Thats debatable : https://fullfact.org/immigration/how...blic-finances/

---------- Post added at 17:26 ---------- Previous post was at 17:25 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35947893)
Maybe they should be building desalination plants. We've got plenty of sea and it's ever rising !

iirc, we (the UK) built one a few years back, didn't use it properly and broke it! :D

---------- Post added at 17:29 ---------- Previous post was at 17:26 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35947931)
Well that's another consequence of privatisation Richard, the consumer comes last, and profits first.

As opposed to our old state run industries which put the workers first and the consumers last :D
Looks like the customers always come last :(

Mr K 25-05-2018 22:25

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35948009)

[/COLOR]As opposed to our old state run industries which put the workers first and the consumers last :D
Looks like the customers always come last :(

The water industry, as well as Railways, are examples of where privatisation doesn't work. One of the supposed benefits is competition - there isn't in the water sector - just a privatised monopoly.
Still, its the mugs in the SE that will go dry first, and they certainly aren't having any of our lovely Northern water. If they want it, they'll have to pay lots ;)

RichardCoulter 25-05-2018 23:44

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35948007)
Well, let's see what 'very similar' actually means. I dare say that those Europeans we actually need in this country will not notice much difference. The ne'er-do-wells may have a different experience.

Indeed. I think most people have a problem with the free movement of people that the EU have forced us to adopt because we have no control over the quality and quantity of an unlimited number that are able to come here.

Never again do I want to see Romanians living in our subways and openly defecating in our parks.

---------- Post added at 22:44 ---------- Previous post was at 22:39 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35948005)
They are going to be disappointed because Brexit is going to make very little difference to the levels of immigration.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8326101.html

We will be able to let in the number and type that we want, rather than them being able to turn up with no job or home arranged.

I do hope that they somehow make it clear that this is not a permanent arrangement though. As automation takes hold for many of these unskilled jobs that they fill, we need to be able to have an exit strategy in place for them, or we will end up having to keep them once they are surplus to requirements.

An alternative idea to fill any vacancies was floated today by the justice strategy:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...david-gauke-EU

Ramrod 26-05-2018 00:10

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35948041)
The water industry, as well as Railways, are examples of where privatisation doesn't work. One of the supposed benefits is competition - there isn't in the water sector - just a privatised monopoly.
Still, its the mugs in the SE that will go dry first, and they certainly aren't having any of our lovely Northern water. If they want it, they'll have to pay lots ;)

link
Quote:

The unpopularity of rail privatisation is an odd phenomenon. British Rail, the monolithic state-owned operation that preceded privatisation, was one of the country’s most reviled institutions. And what people do seems at variance with what they say. The story of rail usage under British Rail was one of inexorable decline. Between 1960 and 1995, passenger numbers fell by about a third. Since 1995, they have more than doubled. The dramatic trend reversal coincides exactly with privatisation.
As for water. I agree. It should have never been privatized.

denphone 26-05-2018 06:03

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Yes 60% of the public must be a odd lot it seems.;)

https://news.sky.com/story/majority-...shows-11193313

Maggy 26-05-2018 09:55

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35948051)
link
As for water. I agree. It should have never been privatized.

I never ever thought water should have been privatised.It's a necessity and a basic human right and should be provided by the state as a utility.We don't have a choice about it unlike the other privatised industries where we can find alternatives between gas or electricity or road or train.

RichardCoulter 26-05-2018 13:39

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35948070)
I never ever thought water should have been privatised.It's a necessity and a basic human right and should be provided by the state as a utility.We don't have a choice about it unlike the other privatised industries where we can find alternatives between gas or electricity or road or train.

Competition was considered back in 2016, but would have only resulted in a saving of about £8 per year. Many businesses, however, have been able to chooses who supplies their water since 1/4/17.

Ramrod 26-05-2018 15:05

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35948070)
I never ever thought water should have been privatised.It's a necessity and a basic human right and should be provided by the state as a utility.We don't have a choice about it unlike the other privatised industries where we can find alternatives between gas or electricity or road or train.

Indeed :tu:
I also think that rail shouldn't have been privatized either but for the omnishambles it had become. I'm actually against privatizing anything that is part of the infrastructure of the nation but that then leaves the problem of unions, inefficiency, jobs for life etc. to be dealt with before those utilities can function at their best.

OLD BOY 26-05-2018 20:55

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Privatisation was good because it ensured the badly needed investment that was required.

What is so sacred about water in terms of the public/private debate? The water is free - what we are paying for is the means of getting a pure supply of it to our homes and the means of disposing of the waste as sewerage. We were relying on old Victorian pipes with no public money available to replace them. That's why water was privatised.

As for the railways, nobody surely who used the railways while under public sector control would want to go back to that! Pre-war trains, window frames so dirty that if you put your hand on them, you could only remove the grime with soap and water, revolting turned up sandwiches which I wouldn't feed to the birds.... Honestly, who wants that?

In my part of the world, we had a two-carriage train to London, which was not well used. The fact that we now have a modern eight-carriage service with most seats taken speaks volumes for the difference privatisation has made.

techguyone 26-05-2018 21:17

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
B R pork pies.... Yes I remember those :D

richard s 26-05-2018 21:36

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
So does my stomach..... he, he, he.

Mr K 26-05-2018 22:30

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35948126)
Privatisation was good because it ensured the badly needed investment that was required.

What is so sacred about water in terms of the public/private debate? The water is free - what we are paying for is the means of getting a pure supply of it to our homes and the means of disposing of the waste as sewerage. We were relying on old Victorian pipes with no public money available to replace them. That's why water was privatised.

As for the railways, nobody surely who used the railways while under public sector control would want to go back to that! Pre-war trains, window frames so dirty that if you put your hand on them, you could only remove the grime with soap and water, revolting turned up sandwiches which I wouldn't feed to the birds.... Honestly, who wants that?

In my part of the world, we had a two-carriage train to London, which was not well used. The fact that we now have a modern eight-carriage service with most seats taken speaks volumes for the difference privatisation has made.

You're right there OB, privatisation has worked wonders on the railways. Cheap fares, reliable services , no overcrowding, decent rolling stock, no strikes :erm:

It's worked so well that even this Govt. has had to renationalise the East Coast mainline !

OLD BOY 26-05-2018 22:50

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35948136)
B R pork pies.... Yes I remember those :D

And you lived to tell the tale? :D


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