Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36043502)

You keep telling yourself that if it makes you happy, but in the real world democracy is the least worst means of making decisions despite the fact that it almost always operates on a plurality rather than an outright majority. I don’t believe for one second that you would be making this same argument had the referendum results been precisely reversed.

Active Euro-enthusiasm in the U.K. is and always has been a niche pursuit, just as active Euro-scepticism is. The difference is that the euro-enthusiasts, mostly of the metropolitan, soft liberal left whose connection to the population at large is tenuous at the best of times, smugly assumed that the indifferent masses agreed with them. This has always been their weakness. The sceptics, however, understood that there was genuine anger at various economic and social changes in society and they believed they could motivate the masses to support them if they could show how our EU membership was culpable for those changes.

This they did, the rest is history.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36043558)

You fail to address the point as usual but it is expected. There is no moral high ground here to claim. You may believe what you like, the facts are clear for history to judge and the spoils the graceless victors seek to grasp will be as elusive as the promises made ...

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36043527)

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36043559)

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36043560)

Again, your attitude is disappointing. This is not polite debating

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Please drop the condescending attitude. Chris just replied with his (biased) viewpoint, that's all.

My point about the 37% of voters deciding the future of the country was 100% factual.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36043535)

This logic is deeply flawed as I have kept telling you so, several times and you would miraculously not be saying this rubbish, if Remain had won, conveniently.

And how many of the 1975's electorate decided the destiny of the country when it joined the Europe Economic Area...?

Lets see...

• In 1975, Population was 56 Million in UK.
  
• 40 Million registered to vote.
  
• Just short of 26 Million people voted in the 1975 Referendum. 17.3 Million (how very nearly ironic) voted Yes to remain in the EEA. Over 8 Million did not.
  
• So out of 56 Million people of the entire UK, just 17.3 Million people, decided the countries destiny and not even half of the 40 Million people electorate, because 15 Million did not bother to vote.

The key words is "not bother" that means they didn't give a shit and also then means, they cannot complain after when the vote goes a way they suddenly don't approve of. They had their right to a democratic process but the they chose not to bother for whatever reason, so you cannot never include them in a total percentage calculation, after a result to try nullify a referendum result, you cannot force people to vote, by not voting is also a true democracy.

So those who didn't vote in either referendum, clearly had no desirable preference, that they got off their arses and decided they had to vote. It's too late in the game to then complain after or attend mass walks.

What the 2019 General Election actually showed is that the silent millions who for the last 4 years, got fed up of being told by the Remainers, that they voted the wrong way, voted again to give the party that fully committed to implementing the result, it's 80 seat majority. (Effectively a landslide victory).

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36043560)

Again, your attitude is disappointing. This is not polite debating

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:46 ----------



Please drop the condescending attitude. Chris just replied with his (biased) viewpoint, that's all.

My point about the 37% of voters deciding the future of the country was 100% factual and accurate.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36043563)

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36043567)

You are like a stuck record with this crap. It is the way any democracy works. Those who have the inclination to vote do so and the decision is made by the outcome. Anyone and everyone entitled to vote may do so to take part in that process. If anyone decides, as is their democratic right, not to partake then their non-vote is not counted.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36043569)

Your involvement of the non-voting electorate is gibberish, they literally did not vote and so they are irrelevant to the point being made.

37% of voters literally, legally and factually decided the future of the country. That's it, no ifs or buts.

What is ironic and so telling is that if the Brexit referendum followed the same rules as Scotland’s first referendum on devolution, the Leave vote would still have won – but Brexit would not now be happening. Those voting ‘Yes’ for devolution was only 33% of registered voters, Scotland on that occasion didn’t get its own assembly, because Parliament had set a threshold of at least 40% of the electorate voting ‘Yes’ before it could happen.

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Is your awareness of the world so limited?

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36043573)

This genuinely gives me a headache. Yes it was 37%, but that’s the rules Cameron and the Lib Dems laid out.

Cameron, Clegg, etc made an arse of it. Following 2017 every attempt to prevent Brexit has pushed the needle further in the no deal/WTO direction. At some point they should have cut their losses, backed May’s deal, a customs union or put Corbyn in Downing Street. People’s Vote was nothing but a sham to boost the Lib Dems at the expense of Labour. It didn’t work with either aim.

People voted to leave and having tired of three years where nothing got done elected a Government to do it, and to that end Mick is right.

Reraking the terms of the referendum isn’t going to change reality. It’s only going to give the Government more cover from criticism with an easy get out, that galvanises it’s supporters and dismisses it’s opponents out of hand.

It’s entertaining to observe the Government backtrack on promises made and to have underestimated the task at hand. However, unfortunately, we do need them to make the right decisions eventually.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36043573)

This genuinely gives me a headache. Yes it was 37%, but that’s the rules Cameron and the Lib Dems laid out.

Cameron, Clegg, etc made an arse of it. Following 2017 every attempt to prevent Brexit has pushed the needle further in the no deal/WTO direction. At some point they should have cut their losses, backed May’s deal, a customs union or put Corbyn in Downing Street. People’s Vote was nothing but a sham to boost the Lib Dems at the expense of Labour. It didn’t work with either aim.

People voted to leave and having tired of three years where nothing got done elected a Government to do it, and to that end Mick is right.

Reraking the terms of the referendum isn’t going to change reality. It’s only going to give the Government more cover from criticism with an easy get out, that galvanises it’s supporters and dismisses it’s opponents out of hand.

It’s entertaining to observe the Government backtrack on promises made and to have underestimated the task at hand. However, unfortunately, we do need them to make the right decisions eventually.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36043575)

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36043573)

This genuinely gives me a headache. Yes it was 37%, but that’s the rules Cameron and the Lib Dems laid out.

Cameron, Clegg, etc made an arse of it. Following 2017 every attempt to prevent Brexit has pushed the needle further in the no deal/WTO direction. At some point they should have cut their losses, backed May’s deal, a customs union or put Corbyn in Downing Street. People’s Vote was nothing but a sham to boost the Lib Dems at the expense of Labour. It didn’t work with either aim.

People voted to leave and having tired of three years where nothing got done elected a Government to do it, and to that end Mick is right.

Reraking the terms of the referendum isn’t going to change reality. It’s only going to give the Government more cover from criticism with an easy get out, that galvanises it’s supporters and dismisses it’s opponents out of hand.

It’s entertaining to observe the Government backtrack on promises made and to have underestimated the task at hand. However, unfortunately, we do need them to make the right decisions eventually.

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36043578)

No it wasn't 37% of voters. It was 37% of eligible voters. I'm amazed you cannot see the difference.

I know the difference being one who has only voted 3 times in the 47yrs I've been eligible. Once in the 70's to come out and again in the referendum to come out and finally to elect a Government that will ensure we come out. Once that is completed I see no reason to vote again.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36043582)

It’s semantics. We both know we are talking about the same thing - the status of those who didn’t vote.

This is exactly the kind of discussion I called irrelevant in my last post - Cameron and Clegg made the rules. Few complained until after the result.