re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The crucial difference is that outside the EU, we alone decide whether the deal is worth the compromise. Trade deals negotiated via the EU result in a mass of compromises aimed at keeping 28 member states happy and may involve us making compromises we would not be willing to make, nor be required to make, if we were acting alone.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Trade deals yes. We would have more control or 'take back control™'. It doesn't mean the trade deals with be as good or easy to obtain. The EU though is an example of where we've traded some sovereignty in exchange for access to the single market. People can decide if the trade-off is worth it or not and many here seem to believe not, fair enough.

However I am just pointing out this isn't a question of not being sovereign and then becoming sovereign. It's just a degree of scale. To be honest I suspect we'll sign up to much of the single market anyway in some weird version of the EEA and just lose the social chapter stuff.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We joined the EEC for access to the single market not the EU.

I have nothing against the single market, I do however have a problem with a "club" that changes the rules once you are in it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Exactly

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

Whatever happens if we leave we will manage ,after all the rest of the world survive outside the EU ,mostly quite well

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not many countries' though have started from a position of already being integrated into the EU's market and then leaving. I believe the UK can be fine in the long-term, I just question the merit of the short and medium term to get there.

But that is the economic argument, I was talking about the concept of sovereignty.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The end justifies the means.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Wow!

Just "wow!"

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Diamondback moths... arriving from the EU... I hope Camoron tried to stop their sudden migration here.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well the remainers did forecast a plague of pests if we left the EU so maybe they've had a tip off.

I dare say the European Court of Justice will ensure we can't send them back... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

For those interested.

38 Degrees has a new opinion-tracking tool - known as a 'worm' - that helps us all give our verdict on the live TV debates. You can share your reactions using your computer or mobile phone while you watch the telly - then see how it measures up with thousands of other 38 Degrees members. It's a bit like shouting at the telly. Except more satisfying.

It has two buttons that you click during the debate: one for when you like what the person on screen is saying, and one for when you don’t. A 'worm' at the top of the screen records how all of us are voting. If lots of us like what’s being said, the worm goes up. If lots of us don’t, the worm goes down.

Watching politicians on TV can be frustrating - but the 'worm' lets us all have our say. If you want to take part, just click the link below and you’ll be signed up:

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/surveys/480/

The 'worm' tool will also be fact checking some of the biggest claims of the night as they happen. It’ll mean that thousands of us will be able to separate the fact from the fiction right away - and share our opinions with each other. It’s like fact-swapping and comparing arguments with your friends at the pub, but you don’t have to get off the sofa.

You don’t need to install anything and there’s no app to download. (Did I mention it’s dead easy to use?) Just click the link above to sign up. On the night, we’ll send you an email reminder with a link to the 38 Degrees worm.

Here are the details you need to know:

The debate tomorrow is with Michael Gove, one of the leaders of the ‘Vote Leave’ campaign. He’ll be taking questions from a live TV audience.
It starts at 6.45pm, and you’ll be sent a link to the ‘worm’ an hour before. All you need to do is click the link when you’re ready to sit down to watch the debate.
The 'worm' will be available for the other TV debates too - including next Sunday where David Cameron will take questions from a live audience.
There will be live fact checks, made using research by a team of independent experts, which will let you know the truth behind some of the big claims that get made during the debate.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That is bull plop. When Roland from Poland first arrived he was prepared to live 7 or 8 to a house, work casually self employed for under the minimum wage and do all the hours god sent to make the money up, it's not true any more, they're institutionalised into our way of life with its rules and rights, I've seen it hundreds of times literally over the years and it annoys me of to have our own workforce and young people denegrated with such nonsense. If the Poles are so wonderful how did we ever manage to hold our own without them all those years.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You are right it is rubbish .. that Poles stop our "young people" getting jobs. Its a level playing field. There are are jobs and everyone can apply for them .. for now ..

Oh and blaming the Poles for UK youth unemployment is the sort of bilge peddled by "Project Lie"* ..

* I am giving in and am joining the childish name calling just to balance things up a bit

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They did used to stop people getting jobs not because they were so hardworking and wonderful but because of the way they lived here, their depression of wages meant local people couldn't afford the simple things like food and a roof over their head if they competed for jobs with them. It's changed over the last few years and the playing field is more or less level from what I've seen, which is quite a bit to be fair.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Everyone. Whether you are 'in' or 'out' (but especially 'in'), please, please, read this article (or watch the video). It documents the history of the UK & the EU with respect to our democracy:
link
Please read/listen to it :(

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And now for Comres:

http://order-order.com/2016/06/14/co...lead-crumbles/

Remain 46
Leave 45

Which is not as comforting for Europhiles as you might think, as this time last month Comres had Remain 12 points ahead.

There's a clear direction of travel here, and it is early enough and substantial enough for Leave to have a small but solid lead by Thursday week.