Cable Forum - Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

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Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36203411)

Why so-called? It is a flotilla.

Does it matter?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36203412)

Does it matter?

I'm interested in why you call it that.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36203409)

The so-called flotilla is made up of a bunch of trouble-makers.

Based on what information ?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Based on my opinion of Greta Thunberg and thus her ilk.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36203390)

Do you think Russia and Iran are over-defending themselves too?

Russia was not attacked, and is the aggressor.

Iran has been funding several terrorist proxy organisations and attacking Israel.

Your comparison is immature.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36203409)

The so-called flotilla is made up of a bunch of trouble-makers. Percussion fireworks dropped on them from drones is about right.

Just because you don’t agree with the objective or like the people involved doesn’t mean that they’re troublemakers.

Have a word with yourself, you’re much better than this.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36203424)

Based on my opinion of Greta Thunberg and thus her ilk.

So just opinion then, not actual fact. ;)

Much like this forum is populated by a "bunch of trouble-makers". :angel:

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36203434)

Much like this forum is populated by a "bunch of trouble-makers". :angel:

Amen.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

'It's looking like we have a deal', Trump says

https://news.sky.com/story/un-latest...#liveblog-body

Hopefully not like the ceasefire :rolleyes:

All the while a mass walk out at the UN :LOL:

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Shows what Israel is up against. AT very least, the UN delegates should hear what Netanyahu has to say.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth
The so-called flotilla is made up of a bunch of trouble-makers. Percussion fireworks dropped on them from drones is about right.

First time I’ve heard stun grenades called that…

Do you also call tear gas "breath shorteners" or "lacrimal glands stimulators"? ;)

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36203493)

Shows what Israel is up against. AT very least, the UN delegates should hear what Netanyahu has to say.

They can watch the recording, or read the transcript. :)

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Acting like a bunch of spoilt 5 yr olds if you ask me . . . which nobody does because they won't like the answer :D

I suppose it's better than sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la la la" though.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

A lot going on here

Trump to front a peace plan with Tony Blair taking up a roll. Netanyahu apologised for violating Qatar's sovereignty with the strike two weeks ago.Hamas are the 'only ones left' to agree to White House plan.

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-late...d-you-13440749

Hmm.. it's not in the lifestyle of Hamas to agree. More carnage to ensure

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36203673)

the deal breaker will be Blairs involvement

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36203674)

the deal breaker will be Blairs involvement

As in he'll help, or hinder ?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36203682)

As in he'll help, or hinder ?

As in how much will he be paid. Bonus for a deal?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

I wouldn't be surprised if Cherie isn't also sniffing around among the throng there hoping to earn a few quid with human rights stuff.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Stumbling blocks may be no Palestinian self-determination and lack of an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, reports Sky News. https://news.sky.com/story/white-hou...blair-13441219

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36203682)

As in he'll help, or hinder ?

he's not popular in the middle east

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

You couldn't make it up. Gaza - run by Trump and Blair!

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36203691)

You couldn't make it up. Gaza - run by Trump and Blair!

Well it's nice and flat, near the sea. Easily fit a golf complex in.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36203690)

he's not popular in the middle east

Hes not popular anywhere...

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36203715)

Hes not popular anywhere...

Harsh but true;)

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36203715)

Hes not popular anywhere...

He gets on well with Trump and Netanyahu hence his appointment.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36203692)

Well it's nice and flat, near the sea. Easily fit a golf complex in.

Better use than a base for lobbing missiles into Israel. Also good job opportunities for Gazans, I would expect. Still - you can't make it up.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

One POV is at least someone is proposing something rather than letting the terrorists and military keep on with their "dialogue". When the detail is fleshed out we can see how well thought out things are.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

An excellent analysis at: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...could-unravel/ which, for your convenience, I reproduce below.

Quote:

But some of its most contentious demands cross red lines that Israel has previously warned it would not agree to. Here are the key points and how they could begin to unravel.

1. Gaza will be a deradicalised, terror-free zone that does not pose a threat to its neighbours.

Along with recovering the hostages, ridding Gaza of terrorists is the Israeli key war aim.

As for deradicalisation, Mr Netanyahu made clear that Israel has little faith in the Palestinian Authority – which is ultimately destined to take control of Gaza under the plan – to deradicalise the population, with measures such as changing the school curriculum.

However, he expressed confidence the Trump plan and the transitional authority, was worth a try.

2. Gaza will be redeveloped for the benefit of the people of Gaza, who have suffered more than enough.

A vague point but important given that the first time Mr Trump and Mr Netanyahu stood together in the White House this year the president suggested displacing the population and redeveloping the Strip into a richman’s paradise.

3. If both sides agree to this proposal, the war will immediately end. Israeli forces will withdraw to the agreed upon line to prepare for a hostage release. During this time, all military operations, including aerial and artillery bombardment, will be suspended, and battle lines will remain frozen until conditions are met for the complete staged withdrawal.

Withdrawal lines have been sticking points in previous negotiations.

However, those set out in the map released by the White House on Monday will presumably be tempting for Hamas to accept, as they would oblige the IDF to withdraw from Gaza City and other key strongholds, where Hamas is under heavy assault.

4. Within 72 hours of Israel publicly accepting this agreement, all hostages, alive and deceased, will be returned.

This reflects the changed thinking in Israeli and US corridors of power since the previous round of negotiations broke down in July. Namely, that a further programme of staged hostage releases simply would not fly.

Steve Witkoff, Mr Trump’s diplomatic envoy, tried to reheat the January-February ceasefire deal many times, after all, without success.

5. Once all hostages are released, Israel will release 250 life-sentence prisoners plus 1700 Gazans who were detained after Oct 7 2023, including all women and children detained in that context. For every Israeli hostage whose remains are released, Israel will release the remains of 15 deceased Gazans.

Although it is a large number already, Hamas could delay a deal by arguing for more.

Ultimately, however, there will not be a deal without this, painful as it is to the Israelis to release killers.

6. Once all hostages are returned, Hamas members who commit to peaceful co-existence and to decommission their weapons will be given amnesty. Members of Hamas who wish to leave Gaza will be provided safe passage to receiving countries.

Mr Netanyahu previously offered exile to Hamas members, saying in March that “Hamas leaders will be allowed to leave Gaza”.

But his promise was made in relation to Mr Trump’s plan for “voluntary migration” of Gazans and Israel has killed all but one of Hamas’s senior leadership in Gaza.

7. Upon acceptance of this agreement, full aid will be immediately sent into the Gaza Strip. At a minimum, aid quantities will be consistent with what was included in the Jan 19, 2025, agreement regarding humanitarian aid, including rehabilitation of infrastructure (water, electricity, sewage), rehabilitation of hospitals and bakeries, and entry of necessary equipment to remove rubble and open roads.

8. Entry of distribution and aid in the Gaza Strip will proceed without interference from the two parties through the United Nations and its agencies, and the Red Crescent, in addition to other international institutions not associated in any manner with either party. Opening the Rafah crossing in both directions will be subject to the same mechanism implemented under the Jan 19, 2025, agreement.

Israel will have to allow aid to enter the Strip, as the rest of the plan will be largely pointless if the people of Gaza continue to go hungry.

Whatever they sign up to, Israel knows that it will retain control over the inflow of aid and can impose restrictions at the Jordanian and Egyptian borders, or entry points to Gaza.

However, the plan does not suggest which countries will be in charge of the rehabilitation of critical infrastructure.

9. Gaza will be governed under the temporary, transitional governance of a technocratic, apolitical Palestinian committee, responsible for delivering the day-to-day running of public services and municipalities for the people in Gaza. This committee will be made up of qualified Palestinians and international experts, with oversight and supervision by a new international transitional body, the “Board of Peace”, which will be headed and chaired by president Donald J Trump, with other members and heads of State to be announced, including former prime minister Tony Blair. This body will set the framework and handle the funding for the redevelopment of Gaza until such time as the Palestinian Authority has completed its reform program, as outlined in various proposals, including president Trump’s peace plan in 2020 and the Saudi-French proposal, and can securely and effectively take back control of Gaza. This body will call on best international standards to create modern and efficient governance that serves the people of Gaza and is conducive to attracting investment.

This is arguably the bitterest pill Mr Netanyahu has to swallow – the long-term potential of Palestinian Authority control of the Strip, however vague.

Mr Trump acknowledged that in the press conference. But this, it seems, a price the Arab partners demanded, and it is one Mr Trump was determined that he paid.

At one time, the idea of Gaza being run by the president along with Sir Tony Blair might have been mistaken as a particularly bad joke but we are in a new reality.

Indeed, it is Mr Trump’s direct oversight of the post-war transition process – stopping Israel dragging its heels on military withdrawal – that may be a key factor securing Arab and indeed Hamas support.

10. A Trump economic development plan to rebuild and energize Gaza will be created by convening a panel of experts who have helped birth some of the thriving modern miracle cities in the Middle East. Many thoughtful investment proposals and exciting development ideas have been crafted by well-meaning international groups, and will be considered to synthesize the security and governance frameworks to attract and facilitate these investments that will create jobs, opportunity, and hope for future Gaza.

11. A special economic zone will be established with preferred tariff and access rates to be negotiated with participating countries.

It wouldn’t be a Trump plan if there wasn’t strong economic incentives.

The list of countries waiting to donate billions of pounds to reconstruct Gaza is long, making this point the least contentious. Arab Gulf nations such as the UAE and Saudi Arabia have already pledged to donate, while European nations will do the same.

Trading is trickier as Israel will probably insist on controlling all goods entering Gaza until it is sure that Hamas is no longer active in the enclave but it will be considered in Israel’s interests, by its moderates, to see Gaza prosper economically once a transitional government manages to uproot Hamas and take full control of the Strip.

12. No one will be forced to leave Gaza, and those who wish to leave will be free to do so and free to return. We will encourage people to stay and offer them the opportunity to build a better Gaza.

It is almost as if Mr Trump’s February “Middle East Riviera” press conference, which enthralled the Israeli, never happened. By contrast, now offering Gazans who have left the enclave the right to return will likely be met with fierce opposition from some in Mr Netanyahu’s government.

Indeed, elements in Israel had already begun planning where the first Jewish settlements would be situated in Gaza. What role the UN will play in helping run the post-war Gazan society is an open question.

Israel detests UNRWA, which has acted as a proxy civil service for decades, but a handful of whose members took part in Oct 7. Mr Trump also labelled them “corrupt”.

As for the Palestinians who want to leave Gaza, the most important question remains unanswered: which countries will take them in?

13. Hamas and other factions agree to not have any role in the governance of Gaza, directly, indirectly, or in any form. All military, terror, and offensive infrastructure, including tunnels and weapon production facilities, will be destroyed and not rebuilt. There will be a process of demilitarisation of Gaza under the supervision of independent monitors, which will include placing weapons permanently beyond use through an agreed process of decommissioning, and supported by an internationally funded buy back and reintegration program all verified by the independent monitors. New Gaza will be fully committed to building a prosperous economy and to peaceful coexistence with their neighbours.

This is the technical grist on the pathway to peace. The independent monitors are key here, as otherwise Israel could be tempted – perhaps under pressure from the ultra-nationalist coalition members – to slow the process by unilaterally deciding that a certain district or area has not demilitarised.

However, it is still likely that Israel will retain a certain amount of control with this process. It is ultimately their security at stake, after all.

14. A guarantee will be provided by regional partners to ensure that Hamas, and the factions, comply with their obligations and that New Gaza poses no threat to its neighbours or its people.

15. The United States will work with Arab and international partners to develop a temporary International Stabilization Force (ISF) to immediately deploy in Gaza. The ISF will train and provide support to vetted Palestinian police forces in Gaza, and will consult with Jordan and Egypt who have extensive experience in this field. This force will be the long-term internal security solution. The ISF will work with Israel and Egypt to help secure border areas, along with newly trained Palestinian police forces. It is critical to prevent munitions from entering Gaza and to facilitate the rapid and secure flow of goods to rebuild and revitalise Gaza. A deconfliction mechanism will be agreed upon by the parties.

A deconfliction mechanism will be agreed upon by the parties. This will be one of the more difficult elements for Mr Netanyahu to sell at home.

What started with the October 7 massacre, ending with, potentially, Arab boots on the ground in Israel’s back yard will not go down well with everyone.

However, it does mean that the exhausted IDF does not have to remain in Gaza permanently, a big relief to both the young men and women of Israel, who are called to serve on the front line, and its commanders.

No process of deradicalisation and demilitarisation is ever entirely successful, so the strength of this new policing model will be crucial. A lot will be determined by the long-term commitment of outside nations to make it work.

16. Israel will not occupy or annex Gaza. As the ISF establishes control and stability, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) will withdraw based on standards, milestones, and timeframes linked to demilitarisation that will be agreed upon between the IDF, ISF, the guarantors, and the Unites States, with the objective of a secure Gaza that no longer poses a threat to Israel, Egypt, or its citizens. Practically, the IDF will progressively hand over the Gaza territory it occupies to the ISF according to an agreement they will make with the transitional authority until they are withdrawn completely from Gaza, save for a security perimeter presence that will remain until Gaza is properly secure from any resurgent terror threat.

The dreams of Mr Netanyahu’s coalition partners are explicitly dashed here. But it could be a long process.

It is not impossible that this collapses the governing, prompting elections where alterations to the deal could be on the agenda. But it gives Mr Netanyahu an easy way out of a major headache that would see Israel in violation of international law while being responsible for the lives of two million Palestinians.

An occupation of Gaza would cost Israel billions of pounds every month to sustain, while putting enormous pressure on an already exhausted army.

Israel will insist on being the one deciding when to declare “terror-free” areas. But there are question marks over the timeframe for handing over responsibility to the international force and whether the force is ready to fight Hamas if it resurfaces in the “terror-free zone”.

On the plus side, from Israel’s point of view, the IDF will keep the security perimeter it claimed since October 7.

17. In the event Hamas delays or rejects this proposal, the above, including the scaled-up aid operation, will proceed in the terror-free areas handed over from the IDF to the ISF.

This denies local Hamas leaders of derailing the whole process. However, the prospect of disarmament, deradicalisation and IDF withdrawal taking place successfully in one area while fighting continues in another seems hard to contemplate.

Gaza is not a large area, after all. But this clause illustrates the commitment of the White House to drive the process forward.

18. An interfaith dialogue process will be established based on the values of tolerance and peaceful co-existence to try and change mindsets and narratives of Palestinians and Israelis by emphasising the benefits that can be derived from peace.

Who could argue with this? Except perhaps the Israelis and the Palestinians, the former still deeply wounded from October 7, the latter having endured what they see as a genocide.

19. While Gaza re-development advances and when the PA reform program is faithfully carried out, the conditions may finally be in place for a credible pathway to Palestinian self-determination and statehood, which we recognise as the aspiration of the Palestinian people.

This almost directly reflects the language the Saudi Arabia et al have spoken for years as their price for recognising Israel. It is a huge coup for the Palestinian Authority (even if they aren’t named in this particular clause). And a huge blow for Mr Netanyahu, who has built his career on preventing Palestinian statehood. However, a “credible pathway” is a long way from a state.

20. The United States will establish a dialogue between Israel and the Palestinians to agree on a political horizon for peaceful and prosperous co-existence.

This is extremely vague and, it could be argued, covered off by previous more concrete points. But a laudable aim, nonetheless, particularly after the polarisation of the last two years.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxq7zp7002o

Quote:

Hamas has responded to the US ceasefire proposals by accepting them in part but seeking further negotiations on a number of key points.

In a statement the movement said it agreed "to release all Israeli prisoners, both living and dead, according to the exchange formula contained in President Trump's proposal" - if field conditions for the exchanges were met.

But it appears to suggest it is seeking further negotiation on other issues regarding the future of the Gaza Strip and the rights of the Palestinian people saying that they are still being discussed…

… In a statement, Hamas said it also "renews its agreement to hand over the administration of the Gaza Strip to a Palestinian body of independents (technocrats), based on Palestinian national consensus and Arab and Islamic support."

But it added that the part of the proposals dealing with the future of Gaza and the rights of Palestinian people was still being discussed "within a national framework".

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36204042)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxq7zp7002o

It’s almost as if, the last two years of bloodshed and killings, could have been avoided if HAMAS had agreed to release the hostages and negotiate back then………..🤔

Instead of putting Palestinians deliberately in harms way…………

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Let's face it , neither side is really interested in peace. Trump's only interest is a Nobel peace prize as Obama got one and he's jealous.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36204045)

Let's face it , neither side is really interested in peace. Trump's only interest is a Nobel peace prize as Obama got one and he's jealous.

And HAMAS’ only interest is to continue the slaughter of their own people for their own ends…..

Trump comes out looking pretty good……

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

An unprecedented request from a US President to Israel to stop the war. But Netanyahu has had a clear interest to date in prolonging the war so that he remains in power. Will be interesting to see if this is the beginning of the end for him. Could Trump get the Nobel Peace Prize and Netanyahu be jailed for genocide? I wouldn't rule out the former if the deal comes off but I'm sure Netanyahu will swerve justice.

Apparently, the attack on Qatar was the last straw for Trump. Whilst Trump has been praised by Netanyahu for his support of Israel, the two leaders have never been particularly close.

Quote:

"Based on the Statement just issued by Hamas, I believe they are ready for a lasting PEACE. Israel must immediately stop the bombing of Gaza, so that we can get the Hostages out safely and quickly! Right now, it's far too dangerous to do that. We are already in discussions on details to be worked out. This is not about Gaza alone, this is about long sought PEACE in the Middle East."

This was a remarkable statement and represents a huge moment. Neither Trump, nor Joe Biden before him, has ever asked this of Israel before. The American president was telling Israel to stop; to stand its military down and to bring this war to an end. Extraordinary.

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-late...-deal-13443931

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36204045)

Let's face it , neither side is really interested in peace.

Exactly, and people may not like this but it's my opinion, if you give countries like Israel, Iran, Iraq and terrorists like Hamas, Isis, Hezbollah etc access to weapons and you will only ever get wars because if nothing has been proven over the last 50 years, they are only interested in fighting each other no matter what.

Israel will not stop until they take all of the land, Hamas will not stop until they wipe out the jews of the face of the planet, both numbnuts Netanyahu and the Hamas leader have said as much, so it doesn't matter what we say or try to do, they will not stop fully.

Peace in the middle east is impossible as long as those in the middle east are allowed weapons, you take the weapons away, so they cannot fight wars like they are now and you watch how quickly the middle east turns around!

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by damien c (Post 36204099)

Just when you thought you'd taken the weapons away and peace has broken out, another bad actor steps up to provide weapons to one side or the other to further their own interests.

Damien has reasonably described an intractable situation. @Andrew would no doubt agree!

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Is it reasonable to assume if the UK accept refugees from both sides they will play nicely with each other once here?

or will the deep rooted antagonism still hold and create the same conflict in small doses :shocked:

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Why would there be Israeli refugees?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36204115)

Why would there be Israeli refugees?

Give it time Hugh ;)

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36204111)

Israel has said it will "Wipe out hamas wherever it is" which is why they started attacking other countries, so the UK is not safe, nor is America or any country when you have a leader who is blood thirsty like Netanyahu.

Hamas has said it will wipe out the Jews from the planet, just like Hitler wanted to do, they will not stop no matter where they are, we have seen that recently with the attack in Manchester and as I have said I do not think it will be the last attack, I fully expect there to be more, I don't there to be anymore, on either side but I do not believe they will stop.

Even if Trumps plan works, it won't be long before one of them attacks the other and it all starts again, the thing is people seem to think this has only been going on for the last couple of years, it's not it's been going on for decades just like Russia and Ukraine and it will never stop.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36204115)

Why would there be Israeli refugees?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36204119)

Give it time Hugh ;)

Not really an answer…

There will be no re-run of the ‘67 Yom Kippur War, the USA will make sure Iran aren’t an existential threat, and the rest of the Arab World (well, the important oil states) don’t want the disruption a large-scale conflict will bring.

What do you think will cause Israeli refugees?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by damien c (Post 36204124)

Quote:

Are these your true colours? Painting Hamas as the victims? (which is a reasonable inference). Hamas should not be allowed anywhere. See October 7th 2023 for details.

Quote:

Hamas has said it will wipe out the Jews from the planet, just like Hitler wanted to do, they will not stop no matter where they are, we have seen that recently with the attack in Manchester and as I have said I do not think it will be the last attack, I fully expect there to be more, I don't there to be anymore, on either side but I do not believe they will stop.

Yes - just remember the two H words: Hitler & Hamas. I hope you are encouraging the UK to do its job to help remove the curse of Hamas from the UK.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204126)

Are these your true colours? Painting Hamas as the victims? (which is a reasonable inference). Hamas should not be allowed anywhere. See October 7th 2023 for details.

Yes - just remember the two H words: Hitler & Hamas. I hope you are encouraging the UK to do its job to help remove the curse of Hamas from the UK.

Not painting Hamas as victims at all, I am just saying that Netanyahu will not stop, even if he wiped out Hamas from Gaza etc, he will, as he has shown continue to fight them, including by attacking them in other countries.

Hamas as far as I am concerned should be wiped out, but it needs to be done properly, not just with bombs dropped anywhere and everywhere some nutjob thinks they might be which is currently what Netanyahu is doing.

It should be surgical, done with precision based on legit intel and carried out cleanly to minimise the risk to the innocent public.

As for encouraging the UK to do what needs to be done, well at the moment I would say the UK Government has more important things to worry about than going to fight someone who has not attacked this country currently and we should avoid getting involved in wars that have nothing to do with us, just because America has.

Now if Hamas attacks this country, then send the full force of the Armed Forces at them, annihilate them but we won't because our leaders, as clueless as they maybe about most things, the one thing they won't do is go attacking other countries, I think most of them have learnt the lessons from Blair and the other MP's did back then.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by damien c (Post 36204163)

Now if Hamas attacks this country, then send the full force of the Armed Forces at them, annihilate them but we won't because our leaders, as clueless as they maybe about most things, the one thing they won't do is go attacking other countries, I think most of them have learnt the lessons from Blair and the other MP's did back then.

Russia hasn't attacked the UK, but we're supporting Ukraine to the tune of millions.

And we're definitely not recognising The Donbas as being part of Russia.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36204125)

Not really an answer…

There will be no re-run of the ‘67 Yom Kippur War,

The Yom Kippur War was in 1973, it was the Six Day War in 1967.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36204171)

The Yom Kippur War was in 1973, it was the Six Day War in 1967.

Thanks for spotting that - my mistake

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36204166)

Russia hasn't attacked the UK, but we're supporting Ukraine to the tune of millions.

So should we only support an attacked country if the attacker also attacks the UK?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36204166)

Russia hasn't attacked the UK, but we're supporting Ukraine to the tune of millions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204175)

So should we only support an attacked country if the attacker also attacks the UK?

Hey, that financial black hole won't keep getting bigger if we don't keep digging into it :devsmoke: :rofl:

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36204171)

The Yom Kippur War was in 1973, it was the Six Day War in 1967.

.... anyone see a pattern there? Leading to Hamas, Hezbollah, Houtis, etc., and to the Manchester Synagogue atrocity?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204175)

So should we only support an attacked country if the attacker also attacks the UK?

I didn't say that, i was pointing out the flaw in his argument.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36204166)

Russia hasn't attacked the UK, but we're supporting Ukraine to the tune of millions.

And we're definitely not recognising The Donbas as being part of Russia.

This is my opinion, you may not like it, that is your choice, if you don't that is fine, it you do that is also fine, it's not going to change my opinion about anyone and unless something is put in front that I find a fitting argument, it's not going to change my opinion.

To me we should not be sending millions/billions of pounds to Ukraine to support them in a war that they have been fighting for hundreds of years, this latest war has been active since 2014, I notice how we were not sending them Millions/Billions back then!

Russia and Ukraine will never fully stop fighting, until Ukraine is part of NATO, then you will find Russia will stop because as mad as Putin is, he doesn't really want all out war with NATO because he knows Russia will be wiped of the face of the planet, as will anywhere that he decides to fire his nukes at, NATO and Russia going to war is mutually assured destruction and has the potential for being as bad for the planet as a massive asteroid hitting it, like the one that killed of the Dinosaurs!!

At the moment the UK has apparently got some random number between £20bn and £10000000000000000000000000000000tn pound black hole, the number changes depending on how much the clown in charge wants to tax everyone and steal from everyone.

So we have that massive black hole in the finances, but we continue to fund a war that has nothing to do with us, is not going to stop anytime soon, is doing nothing to us but causing all of our bills to sky rocket due to taxes and even when it's "over" is not going to change our lives at all in any way shape or form because all the money that we were sending to Ukraine, will be allocated to some other country who is at war, that again will more than likely have nothing to do with us, not affect us in way until we start funding one side of it.

We in this country according to the Government cannot look after our own, we cannot provide enough doctors, nurses, dentists, police officers, fire fighters, paramedics etc etc because the funding is not there, but somehow we can find a couple of million to send to Zelenski when he comes begging, can find a couple of million to send to Netanyahu when he asks for it, can find £50m to send to a terrorist organisation who are now in charge of Syria, can find millions each month to fund hotels, prioritised health care, free education, free food, free travel, free entertainment etc for illegal immigrants and asylum seekers, find millions each month or year to fund nutjob millibands energy BS, oh and don't forget £65k a year for Raving Rayner to have a personal photographer!

So not I think we have more important things in this country that we should be spending the money on that Rachel Thieves steals from us on a daily basis, instead of funding never ending wars, personal vanity projects of a bunch of criminals in government!

We are a part of NATO, we should defend and support NATO countries, all the rest can look after themselves until we are capable of looking after ourselves.

If you want to try and change my mind, go for it, open to hearing what people want to say, I just don't think anyone can say why we should tell people in this country "You should pay 1000% more for food, so that we can send X Country money to buy bombs and bullets".

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

I don't really find any fault with that post at all.

I'm sure that may make me a socially and morally outcast, but hey, call me names and take away my bus pass :D

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by damien c (Post 36204199)

fine….taken as read really, but I’m happy you could express yourself.

Quote:

To me we should not be sending millions/billions of pounds to Ukraine to support them in a war that they have been fighting for hundreds of years, this latest war has been active since 2014, I notice how we were not sending them Millions/Billions back then!

Back when?

Quote:

Russia and Ukraine will never fully stop fighting, until Ukraine is part of NATO, then you will find Russia will stop because as mad as Putin is, he doesn't really want all out war with NATO because he knows Russia will be wiped of the face of the planet, as will anywhere that he decides to fire his nukes at, NATO and Russia going to war is mutually assured destruction and has the potential for being as bad for the planet as a massive asteroid hitting it, like the one that killed of the Dinosaurs!!

Ukraine will not be part of NATO whilst this conflict is unresolved. That’s a fact.

Quote:

At the moment the UK has apparently got some random number between £20bn and £10000000000000000000000000000000tn pound black hole, the number changes depending on how much the clown in charge wants to tax everyone and steal from everyone.

So we have that massive black hole in the finances, but we continue to fund a war that has nothing to do with us, is not going to stop anytime soon, is doing nothing to us but causing all of our bills to sky rocket due to taxes and even when it's "over" is not going to change our lives at all in any way shape or form because all the money that we were sending to Ukraine, will be allocated to some other country who is at war, that again will more than likely have nothing to do with us, not affect us in way until we start funding one side of it.

Well it won’t be over by joining NATO. So we will just keep funding it.

Quote:

We in this country according to the Government cannot look after our own, we cannot provide enough doctors, nurses, dentists, police officers, fire fighters, paramedics etc etc because the funding is not there, but somehow we can find a couple of million to send to Zelenski when he comes begging, can find a couple of million to send to Netanyahu when he asks for it, can find £50m to send to a terrorist organisation who are now in charge of Syria, can find millions each month to fund hotels, prioritised health care, free education, free food, free travel, free entertainment etc for illegal immigrants and asylum seekers, find millions each month or year to fund nutjob millibands energy BS, oh and don't forget £65k a year for Raving Rayner to have a personal photographer!

So not I think we have more important things in this country that we should be spending the money on that Rachel Thieves steals from us on a daily basis, instead of funding never ending wars, personal vanity projects of a bunch of criminals in government!

We are a part of NATO, we should defend and support NATO countries, all the rest can look after themselves until we are capable of looking after ourselves.

I refer you to your previous point about Ukraine joining NATO.

Quote:

If you want to try and change my mind, go for it, open to hearing what people want to say, I just don't think anyone can say why we should tell people in this country "You should pay 1000% more for food, so that we can send X Country money to buy bombs and bullets".

No, you’ve done a great job.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Back when?

Back in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, all the years that this war has been going on for, it did not start in 2022 it started again in 2014, the difference is that Zelensky started begging for help because Putin like Netanyahu just started dropping bombs anywhere and everywhere without a care for civilians or innocents, and pushed troops into Ukraine.

One thing I find annoying though is that NATO and the EU seem to have hamstrung Zelensky to fight this war fully by refusing to allow the weapons they provide to be used to go on an offensive fully.

Quote:

Ukraine will not be part of NATO whilst this conflict is unresolved. That’s a fact.

Well it won’t be over by joining NATO. So we will just keep funding it.

I refer you to your previous point about Ukraine joining NATO.

All it takes is a "Ceasefire" long enough and Ukraine would join NATO, NATO have already agreed for Ukraine to join NATO and is prepping for Ukraine to join NATO as a full fledged member.

As for constantly funding it, well one day it has to stop because we cannot bankrupt this country in order to fund another country to buy bullets and bombs to fight another.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by damien c (Post 36204231)

<snip>
As for constantly funding it, well one day it has to stop because we cannot bankrupt this country in order to fund another country to buy bullets and bombs to fight another.

It would also help if we (those in power) stopped funding other crap and also forgot about all this net zero nonsense :Yes:

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36204241)

It would also help if we (those in power) stopped funding other crap and also forgot about all this net zero nonsense :Yes:

Yep that certainly would help if the clowns in charge realised that even if we in this country somehow managed to get to completely 0% carbon footprint, something which is absolutely 100% impossible, you can never reach 0% carbon footprint or Net Zero it's a fallacy and a impossibility.

However let's say we found a way to not need coal, gas, plastic, rubber, metal etc etc, we produced everything in this country and consumed only stuff produced in this country that produced no pollution and had zero effect on the climate, the "Climate Emergency" would still be a "Climate Emergency" because the pollution levels would drop by I think it is 3.6% or 4% globally, something that is the grand scheme of things going to make no difference.

Let's not forget that Sad Act in London wanted to charge people a tax for brake dust and tyre particles because Electric cars didn't pay what the ICE cars did, also he wants to tax people for having a concrete driveway because 2 meter's of grass is going save the planet and stop flooding, in a city where the water works are knackered, as it is through out the whole of the country!

The politicians are clowns all of them, they have no idea what the real world is like they have no idea what it is to struggle etc, they just sit happy raking in hundreds of thousands each year if not millions each year, laughing about making our lives worse!

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

They just can't help it can they

Clashes erupt between Hamas forces and armed clan members in Gaza City

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg5e551j593o

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cder1pg17yrt

At least 27 people have been killed in clashes between Hamas and a Gaza City clan since the end of major Israeli operations in the territory

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Could have been planned by Israel to take the rest of Hamas out.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204552)

Could have been planned by Israel to take the rest of Hamas out.

To do that (take Hamas out) you'd need to be using much more than a few armed clan members.

. . and not just in Gaza (shipped in from outside)

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

James O'Brien on LBC is pontificating on how disproportionate the celebrations in Israel are. What doesn't that berk think happened on October 7th 2023?

Of course Israel will rejoice at the hostage release. It's quite separate from being appalled at the total destruction of Gaza.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

trump sounds like an opera singer warming up, me me me me me me me me me me me me

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

What's the alternative?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36204571)

What's the alternative?

Biden going "me .. me.. err . . them . . it was a Saturday . . you, them? . . us . . err .. erm . . nice bikini . . err .. me . . I think"

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Imagine the great Kamala Harris waging a war for greater democracy in the region. Thank you America for not doing dirty on the world.

Sir Blair had his moment in history. There is no need for greed which will clearly unsettle people. Behind all the wrongs is a smile of hope. There are people that can achieve it so let them be.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Whatever you think of Trump (and my opinion of him is very low) he has got the remaining Israeli hostages released, which seems a good thing to me.

Will the peace last ? that remains to be seen.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36204576)

Whatever you think of Trump (and my opinion of him is very low) he has got the remaining Israeli hostages released, which seems a good thing to me.

Will the peace last ? that remains to be seen.

Not really trumps plan most of it was proposed at the beginning of the year by france

---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 17:07 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenry (Post 36204574)

that war crim who made his money from the war he helped to create, by doing speeches about it.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

We'll have to wait and see, but it would be churlish not to recognise this as a good day. Hostages released, the bombing has stopped, and much-needed aid is about to flood into Gaza.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

The fact that one side is releasing live detainees and the other is returning bodies gets to the very core of this.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

The bodies if ever found are proving difficult to return as those holding them hostage may have died themselves. SkyNews

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

... and what was Infantini (FIFA President) doing there?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Qatar could have built and demolished a world cup. Qatar is at the table.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by noel43 (Post 36204580)

Not really trumps plan most of it was proposed at the beginning of the year by france

Did France make it work ?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36204585)

The fact that one side is releasing live detainees and the other is returning bodies gets to the very core of this.

That one side has 28 bodies to return whilst the other side cannot return the 67,000 bodies it pulverised?

This should be a day to move on Pierre and for us all to be grateful that the remaining hostages have been released and the shelling of innocent residents has ended.

---------- Post added at 19:49 ---------- Previous post was at 19:47 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36204594)

Did France make it work ?

Exactly, it's alright Sleepy Joe or France having a plan but if you can't implement it, it's just a Word doc.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204595)

Hamas made the mistake of taking hostages after invading Israel and murdering 1200 people.

They didn't release the hostages and Gaza got pulverised.

At least I keep the balance. Hamas could have stopped the pulverisation at any time.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204595)

So naive.

67,000 ok well they’re Hamas numbers and will include combatants….but I’ll let it go.

Hostages are a very different thing. These are people, obviously unarmed and in your care for Christ’s sake.

To try to equate the two or have any kind of Whataboutary, is quite frankly disgusting.

Those hostages alive or dead, in the “care” of Hamas have been Ill treated, tortured, if female probably raped many times and then 28 of them executed in cold blood.

So no, I’m not “moving on” for your convenience.

My point stands.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204598)

Israel could have got the hostages back more quickly if they'd chosen the path the hostage families wanted him to take. But Netanyahu sadly prioritised his stay in power above all else.

Only the USA could have stopped Netanyahu continuing to pound Gaza.Credit to Trump for being effective in doing this when Sleepy didn't.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204601)

Israel could have got the hostages back more quickly if they'd chosen the path the hostage families wanted him to take. But Netanyahu sadly prioritised his stay in power above all else.

<removed>

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204601)

You were careful not to mention what the path wanted by the families was.

So what did they demand of Netanyahu and when? It varied along the timeline.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

I suggest everyone here think about their replies.
Make your points without handing out insults to members.

I prefer not to be handing out timeouts, or topic bans.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204601)

Israel could have got the hostages back more quickly if they'd chosen the path the hostage families wanted him to take. But Netanyahu sadly prioritised his stay in power above all else.

What’s your point?

1. What Path was that?
2. Are you suggesting Netanyahu is somehow responsible for the dead hostages?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204603)

You were careful not to mention what the path wanted by the families was.

So what did they demand of Netanyahu and when? It varied along the timeline.

Plenty of articles have discussed this over the last year. Here's one from the Israeli newspaper Haaretz back in March. Full link attached.

Quote:

Analysis | Two Months Ago We Had Hope. Then Trump Allowed Netanyahu to Destroy the Hostage Negotiations

U.S. President Donald Trump and Steve Witkoff seems to be falling into the same trap that caused Joe Biden's team to fail after the collapse of the first hostage deal: They have let Benjamin Netanyahu set the terms for the negotiations.

...But we witnessed with amazement how he [Steve Witkoff] succeeded in pressuring both Hamas and the Netanyahu government. With Trump's backing and support, he managed to get a cease-fire in place and a multistage deal to release all the hostages and end the war.

We knew right from the start that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu didn't want this deal. As the vast majority of hostage families in Israel have said and written, the U.S. government has been more committed to the release of the hostages than the Israeli one. This despite the fact that Netanyahu and his ruling coalition bear the ultimate responsibility for the failures that allowed Hamas to kill 1,200 Israelis on October 7 and kidnap 251 into Gaza – an unprecedented catastrophe in the history of our young country.

For Netanyahu, from the moment the cease-fire deal was signed, there was one clear objective: to make it collapse before the end of March, when his ruling coalition must pass a state budget for 2025 or else automatically fall and Israel will head to new elections.
In order to pass the budget, he needed his extremist partners – most notably Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and the Kahanist Itamar Ben-Gvir – to support it. That's why we always knew he would try to blow up the deal at some point this month.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...f-ffbc94e10000

As the paper stated in June

Quote:

To End the Gaza War, Trump Must Pressure Netanyahu. Instead, He's Coddling Him

https://archive.ph/zFETS#selection-307.0-307.78

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

That hardly explained what the people were demanding. My reading of the situation fairly early on was that the people generally wanted Hamas to be smashed. The families of hostages were shit scared that Israel's military response would get the hostages killed. That's rock/hard place stuff.

And yes, it suited Netanyahu's political purpose, likely driven by the Smotrich faction - but that is a side issue if it's the hostages we're talking about.

After all, how many hostages died between March 2025 and today?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204609)

My reading indicated that a safe return of the hostages was the Israeli public's top priority.

It would obviously have been far less stressful for the hostages and their families had Netanyahu not derailed the ceasefire, thereby preventing the hostages returning home in March.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204611)

Big mistake by hamas was overestimating how much the Israeli government would want the hostages back, they thought it'd be like Gilad Shalit all over again and the sheer number of hostages that'd be endangered would protect them from retaliation and retribution, they thought wrong

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36204614)

Big mistake by hamas was overestimating how much the Israeli government would want the hostages back

I think they may have made a mistake in their estimation of how Israel would respond to their attack in 2023.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36204615)

I think they may have made a mistake in their estimation of how Israel would respond to their attack in 2023.

Agreed. Maybe it was a last throw of the dice.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204628)

Agreed. Maybe it was a last throw of the dice.

Presumably you are referring to Hamas. But why a 'last throw'?

The October 7th attack was surely a simple smash and grab raid with unimaginable consequences.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36204615)

I think they may have made a mistake in their estimation of how Israel would respond to their attack in 2023.

That's exactly what I meant, must have been tired, they thought the number of hostages they took would limit the response due to Israels past desire to get them back at almost any cost

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204628)

Agreed. Maybe it was a last throw of the dice.

To what?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/10/14/m...ity-hamas-intl

Got to be some way we can blame the IDF for this.

Will there by any marches against Hamas for killing innocent palestinians?..........no there won't.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Has anything really changed?

Hamas are still going to 'control' everything . . by force if people complain.

All that death and destruction, the crying and wailing, the marches and protests, the finger pointing and condemnation . . . for what?

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36204691)

The gnashing of teeth, obviously.

Israel will forcibly disarm Hamas, imo. Either directly or through their own proxies. Hamas don’t have a hold over Israel in terms of the deceased hostages.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204697)

The gnashing of teeth, obviously.

Israel will forcibly disarm Hamas, imo. Either directly or through their own proxies. Hamas don’t have a hold over Israel in terms of the deceased hostages.

They've been trying that and it hasn't worked

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36204704)

They've been trying that and it hasn't worked

Agreed, it's a bit like whack-a-mole.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204705)

Agreed, it's a bit like whack-a-mole.

Same as Ukraine - Russia then :D

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36204708)

Same as Ukraine - Russia then :D

Not really…

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36204711)

Not really…

Yes really.

Israel don't feel 'safe' with Hamas on their doorstep
Russia don't feel 'secure' with NATO on their doorstep.

In both scenarios there was (is) a lot of slapping each other but nobody getting anywhere fast.

The 'good guys' are just as complicit as the 'bad guys' in both scenarios.

The Israel conflict has now been ended (for now), and the Ukraine conflict (which hasn't been sorted in two weeks as advertised) will eventually end . . . and again how long will it last.

Both have cost many lives, caused enormous structural damage, and don't even think about the finances involved (although some will obviously be making yet another fortune)

Same shit, different continent

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36204714)

Yes really.
Israel don't feel 'safe' with Hamas on their doorstep
Russia don't feel 'secure' with NATO on their doorstep.

So, Israel doesn't feel safe with Hamas on its doorstep so attacks attacks the state with Hamas in it, Gaza. That bit I get.

Russia doesn't feel safe with NATO on its doorstep in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. So it attacks a country without NATO in it, Ukraine.

Make this make sense. :confused:

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36204726)

If the axiom is about feeling safe as a country, then your hypothesis on Russia seems to me to be flawed.

Russia doesn't feel unsafe at all - at least not in the sense of what Hams/Hezbollah have done to Israel.

Russia's beef is most likely to be geopolitical. They've got Crimea and want as much control over the Black Sea as possible plus the mineral rich Donbas. And so what if Ukraine did join NATO? NATO would push the button? Russia wouldn't as it would be counterproductive.

Re: Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36204728)

It's Carth's hypothesis not mine - see his post at 13.16.