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papa smurf 01-05-2019 09:48
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35992890)
Change UK should have joined/merged with the Liberals. The latter have a party base, staff ,voter database and all the other stuff that makes up a political party.
But they wanted a new kind of politics not someone else's old hat vision.

Mick 01-05-2019 11:56
Re: Brexit
 
Added a new poll for European elections. Tried to include all new parties and for those not even bothering to vote. (Votes cast in the poll are private, other members will not be able to tell who you voted for).

Mr K 01-05-2019 12:47
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35992915)
Added a new poll for European elections. Tried to include all new parties and for those not even bothering to vote. (Votes cast in the poll are private, other members will not be able to tell who you voted for).
You're getting addicted to these polls Mick ! Blue for Labour, Red for Tory ? ;)

Mick 01-05-2019 13:10
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35992921)
You're getting addicted to these polls Mick ! Blue for Labour, Red for Tory ? ;)
No control of how the colours appear. Unless you know colour of the sequence they appear, no way to say how they appear for the party of choice.

I am not addicted to polls. Yes I have repeatedly stated, I do not trust polls and for good reason. David Cameron was not suppose to get a full majority in 2015 General Election.

Hillary Clinton didn't win the Presidency in the U.S despite every poll saying she was persistently ahead. They are not reliable but they are only the only way of measuring public mood and yes they can get it wrong.

Damien 01-05-2019 13:36
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
At least the Libs are Yellow :D

Mick not sure if you wanted to add UKIP?

OLD BOY 01-05-2019 13:48
Re: Brexit(New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35987523)
interestingly, I got my tax summary this morning

my lowest contribution was £150ish which was for the EU , then there was a significant increase to the next lowest which was overseas aid at £250ush

Relative to others are contributions to the EU are teeny.
So think how much we'd save if we abolished the first and halved the second.

The amount we are paying for the 'privilege' of belonging to the EU is not teeny and would be better spent on those in this country who are in genuine need.

---------- Post added at 13:48 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35992921)
You're getting addicted to these polls Mick ! Blue for Labour, Red for Tory ? ;)
If Remainers keep quoting polls at us, how would you expect Brexiteers to respond when the polls show what Remainers don't want to hear?

Fight fire with fire, I always say.

Hugh 01-05-2019 15:24
Re: Brexit(New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35992928)
So think how much we'd save if we abolished the first and halved the second.

The amount we are paying for the 'privilege' of belonging to the EU is not teeny and would be better spent on those in this country who are in genuine need.

---------- Post added at 13:48 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
You're getting addicted to these polls Mick ! Blue for Labour, Red for Tory ?
If Remainers keep quoting polls at us, how would you expect Brexiteers to respond when the polls show what Remainers don't want to hear?

Fight fire with fire, I always say.
Irony - it's like steely, only softer... ;)

Mick 01-05-2019 16:10
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35992927)
At least the Libs are Yellow :D

Mick not sure if you wanted to add UKIP?
Added.

Mr K 01-05-2019 16:29
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Looks like TM is preparing the groundwork for a climb down over a Customs Union #BRINO
She really doesn't want those EU elections to happen, whatever the cost....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8894546.html

Hom3r 01-05-2019 18:14
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
I bet the Lib em voters what Brexit cancelled. ;)

mrmistoffelees 01-05-2019 21:48
Re: Brexit(New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35992928)
So think how much we'd save if we abolished the first and halved the second.

The amount we are paying for the 'privilege' of belonging to the EU is not teeny and would be better spent on those in this country who are in genuine need.

---------- Post added at 13:48 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------



If Remainers keep quoting polls at us, how would you expect Brexiteers to respond when the polls show what Remainers don't want to hear?

Fight fire with fire, I always say.
Welfare is one of if not the biggest proportion of where our taxes go, the problem is that money is mismanaged and misspent we need a functioning fit for purpose welfare system throwing more money at it won’t resolve the issue.

I’m quite happy with the contributions to the EU and overseas aid, in the grand scheme of things it’s an insignificant amount.

Mick 02-05-2019 07:09
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Post removed attacking someone because of how they posted won’t be tolerated. If members don’t want to be civil then don’t bother posting, it’s no skin off my nose!

Sirius 02-05-2019 07:40
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
I will not be voting, whats the point when non of them do what is asked off them.

Mick 02-05-2019 08:01
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35993017)
I will not be voting, whats the point when non of them do what is asked off them.
I get why you feel this way. But we have to preserve democracy. Politicians are accountable via the ballot box. Every vote should count.

Angua 02-05-2019 08:38
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35992861)
Oh, I totally agree, but he’s not disruptive in that he is actively blocking legislation or disrupting meetings - he’s more like the guy who sits in a pub for four hours but only drinks a half pint; more of a niggle than an annoyance (we should re-brand him as Niggle Forage - an annoyance who scrounges everything he can, whilst not actually doing any of the work that he is paid for...).
I do wonder what will happen to the Brexit party funds if we leave before the EU elections?

heero_yuy 02-05-2019 09:08
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
May's Hokey Cokey deal that even now is being watered down to nothing is not leaving the EU so expect Brexit funds to grow and grow.

OLD BOY 02-05-2019 09:27
Re: Brexit(New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35992992)
Welfare is one of if not the biggest proportion of where our taxes go, the problem is that money is mismanaged and misspent we need a functioning fit for purpose welfare system throwing more money at it won’t resolve the issue.

I’m quite happy with the contributions to the EU and overseas aid, in the grand scheme of things it’s an insignificant amount.
Of course you are, but I repeat, the money is not insignificant.

You know what desperate lives some people are living in the UK. Surely, that money would be better spent on them. Or the NHS. Or schools. Anywhere but the EU, which does very little for us.

If you are looking to Labour to better manage the welfare system, good luck with that. Marxists Corbyn and McDonnell will succeed only in bringing this country to its knees.

Mick 02-05-2019 11:03
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35993021)
I do wonder what will happen to the Brexit party funds if we leave before the EU elections?
You mean the Withdrawal Agreement that isn’t actually Brexit?

And you have the Audacity to call us Brexiteers “blind”. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

BREAKING: The Brexit Party leads well ahead of Labour in latest European Parliament Elections voting intentions.

BREX: 30%
Labour: 21%
Con: 13%
LDem: 10%
Green: 9%
ChUK: 9%
UKIP: 4%

Via @Yougov 29-30 Apr 19.

mrmistoffelees 02-05-2019 11:07
Re: Brexit(New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35993030)
Of course you are, but I repeat, the money is not insignificant.

You know what desperate lives some people are living in the UK. Surely, that money would be better spent on them. Or the NHS. Or schools. Anywhere but the EU, which does very little for us.

If you are looking to Labour to better manage the welfare system, good luck with that. Marxists Corbyn and McDonnell will succeed only in bringing this country to its knees.
I do know what desperate lives some people live as i have first hand experience of it from my youth.

Here in lies the rub however, there's no evidence to suggest whatsoever that if and when we leave the EU and if we were to reduce our foreign aid by 50% that the resultant savings would be passed on to those areas most in need.

The North East of the UK has as a whole has been ignored and left to rot by successive governments with little to no investment from the UK government, The fact that there's been more investment £ from the EU into the North East than there has been from the UK government should tell it's own story.

I firmly believe that had the equivalent money been available from the UK government it would have been used for different purposes and in different geographic areas.

The EU has done a significant amount for the UK, some of which we take for granted and are forgotten about.

I agree with you on your final point, the country requires a fundamental change in the way our political system works.

---------- Post added at 11:07 ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35993019)
I get why you feel this way. But we have to preserve democracy. Politicians are accountable via the ballot box. Every vote should count.
Fully agree, regardless of political allegiance, Brexit stance.

You have the oppurtunity to make your voice heard, This is a right that millions of people around the world would love to have.

Use it.

Angua 02-05-2019 11:30
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35993033)
You mean the Withdrawal Agreement that isn’t actually Brexit?

And you have the Audacity to call us Brexiteers “blind”. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

BREAKING: The Brexit Party leads well ahead of Labour in latest European Parliament Elections voting intentions.

BREX: 30%
Labour: 21%
Con: 13%
LDem: 10%
Green: 9%
ChUK: 9%
UKIP: 4%

Via @Yougov 29-30 Apr 19.
Irrelevant. If we leave the EU this means we have no MEPs.

Even leaving with a customs union AKA the Turkish version is a hard Brexit or BRINO still means no MEPs.

1andrew1 02-05-2019 12:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35993041)
Irrelevant. If we leave the EU this means we have no MEPs.

Even leaving with a customs union AKA the Turkish version is a hard Brexit or BRINO still means no MEPs.
Exactly. Comedy gold to see the moving definition of Brexit.

Mick 02-05-2019 13:06
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35993041)
Irrelevant. If we leave the EU this means we have no MEPs.

Even leaving with a customs union AKA the Turkish version is a hard Brexit or BRINO still means no MEPs.
Then simples, you obviously haven’t been paying proper attention....

Brexit Party becomes a fully fledged political party because the WA, as stated previously and is very much relevant actually, despite your erroneous claim that it’s not, is not Brexit.

In actual fact, I do believe Brexit Party will contest in Peterborough by-election on June 6th, after that criminal MP was ousted by constituents petitioning for her removal. So your question of funding is rather redundant, given Brexit Party is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

---------- Post added at 13:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35993052)
Exactly. Comedy gold to see the moving definition of Brexit.
The comedy gold will be seeing those Remainers faces when they see their attempts to thwart democracy finally failing and we have a political party that stands up to the **** dictators in the EU and we walk away, without looking back.

OLD BOY 02-05-2019 14:56
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35993041)
Irrelevant. If we leave the EU this means we have no MEPs.

Even leaving with a customs union AKA the Turkish version is a hard Brexit or BRINO still means no MEPs.
It's not irrelevant because this shows how strongly people feel that Brexit should be implemented. If we actually get to participate in the EU elections it will provide the answer that some people are seeking from a second referendum on whether we should remain or leave.

Not the answer they want to hear, though!

---------- Post added at 14:56 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35993052)
Exactly. Comedy gold to see the moving definition of Brexit.
It is not a laughing matter. People are fearful, frustrated and angry about the failure to implement Brexit.

Brexiteers have not re-defined Brexit. It's only the Remainers fighting this that appear confused, although the agitators are just trying to muddy the waters. Shame on them.

mrmistoffelees 02-05-2019 15:09
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35993108)
It's not irrelevant because this shows how strongly people feel that Brexit should be implemented. If we actually get to participate in the EU elections it will provide the answer that some people are seeking from a second referendum on whether we should remain or leave.

Not the answer they want to hear, though!

---------- Post added at 14:56 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------



It is not a laughing matter. People are fearful, frustrated and angry about the failure to implement Brexit.

Brexiteers have not re-defined Brexit. It's only the Remainers fighting this that appear confused, although the agitators are just trying to muddy the waters. Shame on them.
As Brexit was never defined in the first place, EVERYONE has their own individual idea of what this should look like.

Yet again, we come back to the old chestnut of Brexit = leave the EU. As we've found out there are many ways in which the EU can be left.

People who say leaving means leaving without a deal, that's fine, That is their interpretation however.

PS. Why would people be fearful about not leaving the EU? Frustrated and angry i can understand, but fearful ?

Angua 02-05-2019 15:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35993113)
As Brexit was never defined in the first place, EVERYONE has their own individual idea of what this should look like.

Yet again, we come back to the old chestnut of Brexit = leave the EU. As we've found out there are many ways in which the EU can be left.

People who say leaving means leaving without a deal, that's fine, That is their interpretation however.

PS. Why would people be fearful about not leaving the EU? Frustrated and angry i can understand, but fearful ?
Those that think No Deal is the only acceptable Brexit are frustrated by MPs who know this would be the worst version. The majority of MPs are not blocking Brexit, just blocking No Deal Brexit.

What they cannot agree on, is what sort of negotiated Brexit to accept.

Mick 02-05-2019 15:18
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35993113)
As Brexit was never defined in the first place, EVERYONE has their own individual idea of what this should look like.

Yet again, we come back to the old chestnut of Brexit = leave the EU. As we've found out there are many ways in which the EU can be left.

People who say leaving means leaving without a deal, that's fine, That is their interpretation however.

PS. Why would people be fearful about not leaving the EU? Frustrated and angry i can understand, but fearful ?
We can keep coming to this old argument again and again and I certainly knew which Brexit I wanted, it wasn't described before Brexit, as hard or soft, nor was is half in, half out. When I expect to leave something, that means exactly that.

I fear nothing - but I do not want my country to be associated or connected to any United States of Europe, which is what the EU has repeatedly aspired to become. But the EU is not a Democratic institution, it certainly expects it's members to follow their way and if we vote on something they don't like, they want us to keep on voting until they get the result they want. Why on Earth do Remainers want to be associated with such corruption and disgusting antics from the EU... They keep saying we should stay and reform, the EU don't want to reform, they made that crystal clear to David Cameron when he tried.

Our democracy is far more better than this, or at least it should be, we should grow a backbone and leave the EU.

mrmistoffelees 02-05-2019 15:37
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35993119)
We can keep coming to this old argument again and again and I certainly knew which Brexit I wanted, it wasn't described before Brexit, as hard or soft, nor was is half in, half out. When I expect to leave something, that means exactly that.

I fear nothing - but I do not want my country to be associated or connected to any United States of Europe, which is what the EU has repeatedly aspired to become. But the EU is not a Democratic institution, it certainly expects it's members to follow their way and if we vote on something they don't like, they want us to keep on voting until they get the result they want. Why on Earth do Remainers want to be associated with such corruption and disgusting antics from the EU... They keep saying we should stay and reform, the EU don't want to reform, they made that crystal clear to David Cameron when he tried.

Our democracy is far more better than this, or at least it should be, we should grow a backbone and leave the EU.
Hi Mick.

Thats my point, because it was never explicitly defined as to what leaving the EU entails then everyone's interpretation of what leave means is correct.

It's the governments (at the time) fault for failing to define the parameters of what leave actually meant and would happen.

I have my reasons why i want to remain, you have your reasons for wanting to leave and never the twain shall meet, however, it doesn't make either of our reasons any less valid :)

---------- Post added at 15:37 ---------- Previous post was at 15:34 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35993118)
Those that think No Deal is the only acceptable Brexit are frustrated by MPs who know this would be the worst version. The majority of MPs are not blocking Brexit, just blocking No Deal Brexit.

What they cannot agree on, is what sort of negotiated Brexit to accept.
Not true, they've blocked no deal Brexit and they've blocked May's version of Brexit (three times now)

Angua 02-05-2019 15:43
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35993125)
Hi Mick.

Thats my point, because it was never explicitly defined as to what leaving the EU entails then everyone's interpretation of what leave means is correct.

It's the governments (at the time) fault for failing to define the parameters of what leave actually meant and would happen.

I have my reasons why i want to remain, you have your reasons for wanting to leave and never the twain shall meet, however, it doesn't make either of our reasons any less valid :)

---------- Post added at 15:37 ---------- Previous post was at 15:34 ----------



Not true, they've blocked no deal Brexit and they've blocked May's version of Brexit (three times now)
Okay, they have agreed No Deal and May's Deal are unacceptable. They seem to agree that Brexit will happen, somehow, someday.

mrmistoffelees 02-05-2019 15:56
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35993127)
Okay, they have agreed No Deal and May's Deal are unacceptable. They seem to agree that Brexit will happen, somehow, someday.

The key word that's missing from that statement that almost all politicians are using is 'believe'

All parties are more focused on protecting their current power, or looking at how they can utilize the situation to win power for themselves. If i was a leaver i'd be annoyed as hell, but I'm not, so, erm I'm not

pip08456 02-05-2019 16:13
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35993125)
Hi Mick.

Thats my point, because it was never explicitly defined as to what leaving the EU entails then everyone's interpretation of what leave means is correct.

It's the governments (at the time) fault for failing to define the parameters of what leave actually meant and would happen.

I have my reasons why i want to remain, you have your reasons for wanting to leave and never the twain shall meet, however, it doesn't make either of our reasons any less valid :)

---------- Post added at 15:37 ---------- Previous post was at 15:34 ----------



Not true, they've blocked no deal Brexit and they've blocked May's version of Brexit (three times now)
After a quick look (just to prove memory correct).

https://webarchive.nationalarchives....-if-we-leave/#

https://webarchive.nationalarchives..../publications/

papa smurf 02-05-2019 16:28
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35993125)
Hi Mick.

Thats my point, because it was never explicitly defined as to what leaving the EU entails then everyone's interpretation of what leave means is correct.

It's the governments (at the time) fault for failing to define the parameters of what leave actually meant and would happen.

I have my reasons why i want to remain, you have your reasons for wanting to leave and never the twain shall meet, however, it doesn't make either of our reasons any less valid :)

---------- Post added at 15:37 ---------- Previous post was at 15:34 ----------



Not true, they've blocked no deal Brexit and they've blocked May's version of Brexit (three times now)
It feels like more than three ;)

mrmistoffelees 02-05-2019 16:39
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35993135)
Seems to substantiate my point, no clearly defined definition of what leave means.

Sephiroth 02-05-2019 16:45
Re: Brexit
 
the opposite of Remain is not remain. Therefore the synonym is Leave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35993141)
Seems to substantiate my point, no clearly defined definition of what leave means.

mrmistoffelees 02-05-2019 16:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993144)
the opposite of Remain is not remain. Therefore the synonym is Leave.

Many things can be left in many ways

You can leave a table after dinner by a) eating all of the meal b) partially eating the meal

You can leave a room and a) turn the lights off or b) leave the lights on

In both cases you have still left respectively

Carth 02-05-2019 17:01
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35993141)
Seems to substantiate my point, no clearly defined definition of what leave means.
oh . . I thought the Government laid it on pretty thickly to be honest . . paid for by us mere mortals of course.

Maybe they laid it on a little too thickly considering the outcome ;)

OLD BOY 02-05-2019 18:28
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35993148)
Many things can be left in many ways

You can leave a table after dinner by a) eating all of the meal b) partially eating the meal

You can leave a room and a) turn the lights off or b) leave the lights on

In both cases you have still left respectively
That is auite a daft analogy, because in your example the result is the same - you've finished your dinner and you are not going back to eat more of it.

We voted to leave the EU. As Mick says, we did not vote to half-leave. All the alternative options the remainers have put forward involve not completely leaving.

You can dress it up all you want, but we voted to completely leave the EU. The politicians need to get on with it and stop faffing about.

Angua 02-05-2019 18:58
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35993165)
That is auite a daft analogy, because in your example the result is the same - you've finished your dinner and you are not going back to eat more of it.

We voted to leave the EU. As Mick says, we did not vote to half-leave. All the alternative options the remainers have put forward involve not completely leaving.

You can dress it up all you want, but we voted to completely leave the EU. The politicians need to get on with it and stop faffing about.
As 44% of our export trade is with the EU, government knows they need to protect that. Of necessity they are looking at leave options that do the least damage to trade.

mrmistoffelees scenario needs the addition, that the meal is in a restaurant that they want to be able to continue to patronise, even if they want the freedom to patronise other restaurants unfettered as well.

Pierre 02-05-2019 19:22
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35993113)
As Brexit was never defined in the first place, EVERYONE has their own individual idea of what this should look like.

Yet again, we come back to the old chestnut of Brexit = leave the EU. As we've found out there are many ways in which the EU can be left.

People who say leaving means leaving without a deal, that's fine, That is their interpretation however.

PS. Why would people be fearful about not leaving the EU? Frustrated and angry i can understand, but fearful ?
Proof that the debate has not, and most likely will not, moved on since the result. Remain can’t accept that a hard brexit is exactly what leave voted for and they knew what they were voting for. Until they do it’s Bill Murray time.

---------- Post added at 19:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35993125)
Hi Mick.

Thats my point, because it was never explicitly defined as to what leaving the EU meant
I think it was.

Leaving the SM, CU and jurisdiction of the ECJ. That was Crystal clear.

Angua 02-05-2019 20:02
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35993176)
Proof that the debate has not, and most likely will not, moved on since the result. Remain can’t accept that a hard brexit is exactly what leave voted for and they knew what they were voting for. Until they do it’s Bill Murray time.

---------- Post added at 19:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:17 ----------



I think it was.

Leaving the SM, CU and jurisdiction of the ECJ. That was Crystal clear.
Where? Farage spoke about a Norway version of Brexit, others referred to Canada + and other options such as the Swiss have.

Chris 02-05-2019 20:02
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Are we really going over this again?

:zzz:

Mr K 02-05-2019 20:06
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Mmm. Remain seem to be winning the CF poll ! Given its a sample of aged Cable enthusiasts, not bad ;)

papa smurf 02-05-2019 20:32
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35993198)
Mmm. Remain seem to be winning the CF poll ! Given its a sample of aged Cable enthusiasts, not bad ;)
the vegetarian party aren't doing very well.

Mick 02-05-2019 20:33
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35993198)
Mmm. Remain seem to be winning the CF poll ! Given its a sample of aged Cable enthusiasts, not bad ;)

Which poll are you looking at - because I am not see this as it currently stands at 30 total votes?

They are not joint campaigns.

Labour is not a Remain Party, with Jeremy Corbyn at the helm, so cannot include their totals for the leave camp.

Conservatives are trying to deliver Brexit, despite their FUBAR attempt. so we can include theirs.

So BREX and Con totals are 14.

LD + Greens + SNP + ChUK's = 12.

Not voting cannot be included either way.

Leave is currently winning, if were to total up all the different parties - but the parties are not merging or campaigning as one movement, so we're not going to join the totals.

Mr K 02-05-2019 20:38
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
If you say so Mick, it's your poll, on a representative sample ;) You Gov watch out!

---------- Post added at 20:38 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35993203)
the vegetarian party aren't doing very well.
But we'll live longer, and have a clear conscience, so we'll take that :)

Sephiroth 02-05-2019 22:08
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35993173)
As 44% of our export trade is with the EU, government knows they need to protect that. Of necessity they are looking at leave options that do the least damage to trade.

mrmistoffelees scenario needs the addition, that the meal is in a restaurant that they want to be able to continue to patronise, even if they want the freedom to patronise other restaurants unfettered as well.
Ah - but Leave means that in the "other restaurants" carrots don't have to be a certain length and bananas don't have to have a certain curvature - you know what I mean.

Angua 03-05-2019 07:03
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Interesting piece by Sky's political correspondence Lewis Goodall.

Hugh 03-05-2019 08:03
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993230)
Ah - but Leave means that in the "other restaurants" carrots don't have to be a certain length and bananas don't have to have a certain curvature - you know what I mean.
This has been proven many times to be untrue - sad to see it still being promulgated...

And the carrots standard was about carrots being a certain width at one end to be a Class 1 carrot, not length, and that ruling was scrapped in 2008...

Bananas

Quote:
A Brussels ban on bendy bananas is one of the EU’s most persistent myths.

Bananas have always been classified by quality and size for international trade. Because the standards, set by individual governments and the industry, were confusing, the European Commission was asked to draw up new rules.

Commission regulation 2257/94 decreed that bananas in general should be “free from malformation or abnormal curvature”. Those sold as “extra class” must be perfect, “class 1” can have “slight defects of shape” and “class 2” can have full-scale “defects of shape”.

Nothing is banned under the regulation, which sets grading rules requested by industry to make sure importers – including UK wholesalers and supermarkets – know exactly what they will be getting when they order a box of bananas.

Mick 03-05-2019 08:13
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Oh great, you’ve killed one poxy myth about something in regards to the corrupted EU. Hang on, let’s see if this changes my stance on leaving.... Um.. huh... Still No!!!

Mr K 03-05-2019 08:15
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35993269)
Oh great, you’ve killed one poxy myth about something in regards to the corrupted EU. Hang on, let’s see if this changes my stance on leaving.... Um.. huh... Still No!!!
Sounds as if the Banana myth was news to you Mick ;)

May there are other myths .....

denphone 03-05-2019 08:18
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35993270)
Sounds as if the Banana myth was news to you Mick ;) May there are other myths .....
There are 650 myths according to this.;):naughty:

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...hs-a-z-index./

Mick 03-05-2019 08:24
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Being a member of the Con job EU, I wish was a myth, how we surrendered our individual identity as a country for corrupted dictators, in a corrupted union.

Mr K 03-05-2019 08:42
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35993276)
Being a member of the Con job EU, I wish was a myth, how we surrendered our individual identity as a country for corrupted dictators, in a corrupted union.
Yeah the 'corrupt' thing might be another of those myths along with bendy bananas....

Mick 03-05-2019 08:44
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35993283)
Yeah the 'corrupt' thing might be another of those myths along with bendy bananas....
Nope. The whole EU project, biggest corrupt con job going.

papa smurf 03-05-2019 10:05
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Just picked up the post and there's Nigel Farage on an election communication asking for my vote on 23 may,no problem the vote is your's :tu:

Sephiroth 03-05-2019 10:19
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35993267)
This has been proven many times to be untrue - sad to see it still being promulgated...

And the carrots standard was about carrots being a certain width at one end to be a Class 1 carrot, not length, and that ruling was scrapped in 2008...

Bananas
I did caution my examples with “you know what I mean”. Everyone else got the point - regulations.

Hugh 03-05-2019 10:20
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35993271)
There are 650 myths according to this.;):naughty:

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...hs-a-z-index./
And if the lies are repeated often enough (which they were, in the Express and Mail), people accept them as truth.

Sort of like "E.U. Corruption"...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...endum-36276175
Quote:
Claim: The European Union is so corrupt that the European Court of Auditors has not signed off its accounts for 20 years.

Reality Check verdict: The Court of Auditors has signed the EU accounts every year since 2007, while pointing out that EU countries, once they receive the EU funds, misuse about 4.4% of the total budget...

...The latest report, published in 2015 for accounts in 2014, explicitly said that the auditors were "signing off the accounts" as they have done every year since 2007.

The Court did point out that some of the funds - 4.4% of the total in 2014 - were not used in accordance with the EU rules. But it stressed that this "is not a measure of fraud, inefficiency or waste", but money that: "should not have been paid out because it was not used in accordance with the applicable rules and regulations".

The auditors said typical cases involved roads or airports that attracted insufficient traffic.

Poor value for money
It is important to stress that around 80% of the EU budget is managed by member states themselves, and not by EU institutions. The EU transfers funds to the national treasuries and then the countries themselves decide which projects to spend the money on. The auditors have called on EU countries to take more care in their spending.


---------- Post added at 10:20 ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993311)
I did caution my examples with “you know what I mean”. Everyone else got the point - regulations.
So you used things that had been proven to be false to prove your point - fair enough...

You could also have said "Leave means that in the "other restaurants" you don’t have to pay your bill or that they will give you a haircut and shave before you start your meal - you know what I mean"...

Sephiroth 03-05-2019 10:22
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35993271)
There are 650 myths according to this.;):naughty:

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK...hs-a-z-index./
There is no myth about what’s important. ‘Ever closer Union” which would take our democracy away and give it to a European Parliament where our identity would be overcome by the others. We look alike but don’t think alike.

Brexit was all about sovereignty.

Hugh 03-05-2019 10:26
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993315)
There is no myth about what’s important. ‘Ever closer Union” which would take our democracy away and give it to a European Parliament where our identity would be overcome by the others. We look alike but don’t think alike.

Brexit was all about sovereignty.
If that was the case, why do people keep repeating the lies?

Sephiroth 03-05-2019 10:26
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35993312)
And if the lies are repeated often enough (which they were, in the Express and Mail), people accept them as truth.

Sort of like "E.U. Corruption"...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...endum-36276175

---------- Post added at 10:20 ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 ----------

So you used things that had been proven to be falseto prove your point - fair enough...
The EU has a tendency to over regulation. Sometimes to protect French agricultural practices. My illustrations are symptomatic of the EU and that would be clear to everyone.

Hugh 03-05-2019 10:28
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993318)
The EU has a tendency to over regulation. Sometimes to protect French agricultural practices. My illustrations are symptomatic of the EU and that would be clear to everyone.
But your "illustrations" were lies.

Sephiroth 03-05-2019 11:28
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35993321)
But your "illustrations" were lies.
Well, if you're going to persist with your accusation, then "carrots don't have to be a certain length" and "bananas don't have to have a certain curvature" are, of course self-standing truths.

RichardCoulter 03-05-2019 13:30
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
I'm not convinced by this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ther-europeans

Most people I know (including Irish immigrants and non white people incidentally) think that immigration should be more strictly controlled and that freedom of movement was the law that broke the camels back leading to the EU referendum result.

Earlier today Jeremy Vine described Brexit as a by-election on immigration.

jonbxx 03-05-2019 16:05
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993315)
There is no myth about what’s important. ‘Ever closer Union” which would take our democracy away and give it to a European Parliament where our identity would be overcome by the others. We look alike but don’t think alike.

Brexit was all about sovereignty.
But we got a legally binding exemption from further political integration and that still didn't fly

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/medi...lementen16.pdf

RichardCoulter 03-05-2019 16:06
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
More people from the UK are taking their holidays in non EU countries:

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKCN1S40UH

I thought that this might happen. If the benefits and ease of travel to EU countries is stopped or becomes uncertain, people probably think that they might as well broaden their horizons.

Sephiroth 03-05-2019 16:27
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35993382)
But we got a legally binding exemption from further political integration and that still didn't fly

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/medi...lementen16.pdf
True, but that's not the only situation where the others can outvote us. Fishing quotas would be one; CAP, etc.

mrmistoffelees 03-05-2019 16:28
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993332)
Well, if you're going to persist with your accusation, then "carrots don't have to be a certain length" and "bananas don't have to have a certain curvature" are, of course self-standing truths.

You do know that the request for classification and gratings of things such as Banana's was made to the EU from member states and specifically from the retail industry within each of those member states. It's done so that retailers know what they're ordering.

If the EU have banned all this kind of thing, why can you buy 'wonky' fruit and veg from retailers such as Morrisons/Aldi & Lidl. Unless of course you're suggesting that these three are breaking the law of course ?


How would you feel if you went to a petrol station to purchase premium petrol or diesel to find out that instead of getting 98 or 99 RON you instead got 95 or E85+10 ?

OLD BOY 03-05-2019 16:40
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35993393)
You do know that the request for classification and gratings of things such as Banana's was made to the EU from member states and specifically from the retail industry within each of those member states. It's done so that retailers know what they're ordering.

If the EU have banned all this kind of thing, why can you buy 'wonky' fruit and veg from retailers such as Morrisons/Aldi & Lidl. Unless of course you're suggesting that these three are breaking the law of course ?


How would you feel if you went to a petrol station to purchase premium petrol or diesel to find out that instead of getting 98 or 99 RON you instead got 95 or E85+10 ?
That's different, because that would affect performance. Frankly, I don't care what shape my banana is, as long as it tastes good.

Sephiroth 03-05-2019 17:23
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35993399)
That's different, because that would affect performance. Frankly, I don't care what shape my banana is, as long as it tastes good.
Would you care to rephrase that?!

jonbxx 03-05-2019 17:46
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993391)
True, but that's not the only situation where the others can outvote us. Fishing quotas would be one; CAP, etc.
Looking at the graphs here - https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/doe...-of-ministers/ it looks like we lose on agriculture votes ~18% of the time and fisheries ~5% of the time. I guess it depends how many times is too many times to be outvoted but it does show at least that the EU is democratic

Chris 03-05-2019 17:55
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35993425)
Looking at the graphs here - https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/doe...-of-ministers/ it looks like we lose on agriculture votes ~18% of the time and fisheries ~5% of the time. I guess it depends how many times is too many times to be outvoted but it does show at least that the EU is democratic
It’s a tad more complicated than that because the negotiators work hard for consensus before it gets to a vote. We may lose at the vote only a few times but on plenty of other occasions we will have given ground earlier in the process. British fishermen have long complained that the CFP and its quota system hits them disproportionately hard, suggesting that we may have given away too much in negotiations and/or lost crucial votes.

Hugh 03-05-2019 19:37
Re: Brexit (New).
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35989207)
Yes, Grieve wasn't one of the Conservatives' best performers. About time they replaced him as he does seem to have lost the plot.

---------- Post added at 20:50 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------



Obviously quite an intelligent electorate, then.

---------- Post added at 20:54 ---------- Previous post was at 20:50 ----------



Brexit is a divisive issue for all parties, frankly.

If you really think that Labour are in a better position than the Conservatives on the Brexit question, you are not paying attention.

---------- Post added at 21:04 ---------- Previous post was at 20:54 ----------



Dominic Grieve, I'm afraid, is one of those MPs who has disrupted the process to the extent that it has caused the degree of public dissatisfaction with the way in which our road to Brexit has been blocked.

I have absolutely no sympathy with him. Call himself a democrat? Pull the other one. The nation voted to LEAVE.

Let's jolly well leave, then. And if they won't agree to leaving with a deal, then let's leave with a no deal. It's not really rocket science.

[Pauses while Project Fear protagonists sit up in protest]
Dominic Grieve is not being de-selected.

A letter to him from his Constituency Chairman.

Mr K 03-05-2019 20:03
Re: Brexit (New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35993452)
Dominic Grieve is not being de-selected.

A letter to him from his Constituency Chairman.
One of the few in Parliament with his head screwed on.

Sephiroth 03-05-2019 21:57
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35993425)
Looking at the graphs here - https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/doe...-of-ministers/ it looks like we lose on agriculture votes ~18% of the time and fisheries ~5% of the time. I guess it depends how many times is too many times to be outvoted but it does show at least that the EU is democratic
That may be so - but it's no use to us when on the big issues they can outvote us and that may well be included in the 18% and 5%.


---------- Post added at 21:57 ---------- Previous post was at 21:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35993452)
Dominic Grieve is not being de-selected.

A letter to him from his Constituency Chairman.
To paraphrase that letter: "You are a ******* but you've got between now and the General Election to come right.

Damien 03-05-2019 22:00
Re: Brexit (New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35993452)
Dominic Grieve is not being de-selected.

A letter to him from his Constituency Chairman.
Do you think the Chairman is saving face with the assumption that HQ would have vetoed it anyway (or maybe they did)?

Mick 03-05-2019 22:13
Re: Brexit (New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35993452)
Dominic Grieve is not being de-selected.

A letter to him from his Constituency Chairman.
It’s ok the Anti-Democratic ******* will be ousted when he’s not re-elected at next election.

Damien 03-05-2019 22:20
Re: Brexit (New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35993487)
It’s ok the Anti-Democratic ******* will be ousted when he’s not re-elected at next election.
It's one of the safest Tory seats in the country and his constituents narrowly only voted Leave. He is probably fine.

Mr K 03-05-2019 22:21
Re: Brexit (New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35993487)
It’s ok the Anti-Democratic ******* will be ousted when he’s not re-elected at next election.
Tbh I've got respect for a politician that doesn't care about their re-election chances, and just does what they think to be right. Not many of them about.

Mick 03-05-2019 22:50
Re: Brexit (New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35993490)
Tbh I've got respect for a politician that doesn't care about their re-election chances, and just does what they think to be right. Not many of them about.
He’s not right though- destroying democracy is nothing to be proud of. And We will be far better out of a corrupt and failing union. Anti-EU sentiment is on rise because people are finally realising just how much of a dictatorship it has become. Still see that Guy Verhofstadt, standing in the EU parliament, insisting Member States surrender their sovereignty and hand it all over to the EU.

1andrew1 03-05-2019 23:22
Re: Brexit (New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35993492)
He’s not right though- destroying democracy is nothing to be proud of. And We will be far better out of a corrupt and failing union. Anti-EU sentiment is on rise because people are finally realising just how much of a dictatorship it has become. Still see that Guy Verhofstadt, standing in the EU parliament, insisting Member States surrender their sovereignty and hand it all over to the EU.
Voters have just told the two main Brexit-supporting parties where to sling their hooks! Instead, they wisely gave a solidly pro-EU party a staggering extra 700 seats!
Poll after poll shows public support increasing to remain in the world's largest and most successful trading bloc. Fortunately, we're still in it.

Mick 04-05-2019 00:23
Re: Brexit (New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35993496)
Voters have just told the two main Brexit-supporting parties where to sling their hooks! Instead, they wisely gave a solidly pro-EU party a staggering extra 700 seats!
Poll after poll shows public support increasing to remain in the world's largest and most successful trading bloc. Fortunately, we're still in it.
You obviously didn’t watch the video Chris posted earlier of Prof Curtice. Voters have done no such thing. And the polls show no such thing. Stop lying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35993335)
John Curtice, high priest of pollsters, says there’s no evidence that people are switching to the Lib Dems out of Remain sentiment.



Guido Fawkes is finding that the LDs are doing well where they have historically been strong, have a well organised local operation and, in many cases, have totally avoided talking about Brexit or Vince Cable on the doorstep.

https://order-order.com/

OLD BOY 04-05-2019 01:31
Re: Brexit (New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35993458)
One of the few in Parliament with his head screwed on.
Maybe so. But if my head was screwed into my penis, I would be pretty embarrassed.

Sorry, but someone had to say it.

---------- Post added at 01:30 ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35993496)
Voters have just told the two main Brexit-supporting parties where to sling their hooks! Instead, they wisely gave a solidly pro-EU party a staggering extra 700 seats!
Poll after poll shows public support increasing to remain in the world's largest and most successful trading bloc. Fortunately, we're still in it.
Andrew. Have you lost the plot?

---------- Post added at 01:31 ---------- Previous post was at 01:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993421)
Would you care to rephrase that?!
No.

Angua 04-05-2019 07:24
Re: Brexit (New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35993489)
It's one of the safest Tory seats in the country and his constituents narrowly only voted Leave. He is probably fine.
Difficult to judge how his area voted in the referendum, as the constituency is not the same as the referendum area. Nor is it one of the councils up for election recently.

papa smurf 04-05-2019 09:08
Re: Brexit (New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35993452)
Dominic Grieve is not being de-selected.

A letter to him from his Constituency Chairman.
Looks like his final written warning letter.

1andrew1 04-05-2019 10:04
Re: Brexit (New).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35993502)
You obviously didn’t watch the video Chris posted earlier of Prof Curtice. Voters have done no such thing. And the polls show no such thing. Stop lying.
Thanks for sharing the video, interesting and it's heart-warming to see your renewed faith in both polls and experts.
The polls currently say that 48% believe we were wrong to leave the EU and 40% we were right to. You can see the trend here. I wish for your sake I was making it up, but I'm not.
Check out the Bregret tracker here:https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...e-stand-brexit

---------- Post added at 10:04 ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35993427)
It’s a tad more complicated than that because the negotiators work hard for consensus before it gets to a vote. We may lose at the vote only a few times but on plenty of other occasions we will have given ground earlier in the process. British fishermen have long complained that the CFP and its quota system hits them disproportionately hard, suggesting that we may have given away too much in negotiations and/or lost crucial votes.
I think all fishermen have said it hits them disproportionately hard, not just British fishermen.

Sephiroth 04-05-2019 14:33
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
When it all settles down and realistic negotiations start, a solution might be for there to be no customs union, but we pay the relevant VAT % into the EU so that there is no loss of customs integrity.

I say this because nobody's gonna erect a border between the Irelands. That perfidious Varadkar is just hiding in the other 26 coat-tails but actually he's quite naked as the wrong sort of Brexit will hit Eire far harder than it would hit us.

If we don't remain in the EU, it should be No Deal and a fresh negotiation start with the right people doing it.

May's deal stinks and, if you read it carefully, especially the Political Protocol, it seeks to prevent us from ever being a competitive force against the EU. That deal must not get through.

Hugh 05-05-2019 10:04
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...a31b195d67146c

Quote:
Theresa May will take a final desperate gamble to deliver Brexit this week by offering Jeremy Corbyn three major concessions in a bid to force MPs to back a new deal.

The prime minister will show her hand on Tuesday, making a “big, bold” offer to the Labour leader which could split the Conservative Party down the middle.

The Sunday Times has learnt she will outline plans for a comprehensive but temporary customs arrangement with the EU lasting until the next general election, which Corbyn will be able to depict as a Tory cave-in to his demands.

May and her negotiating team will agree that Britain will also align with a wider range of EU single market regulations on goods. Finally, they will enshrine in law that the UK will mirror all EU legislation on workers’ rights.

“There are three main areas: customs, goods alignment and workers’ rights,” said one source involved in the talks. “The Conservative Party will have to suck up concessions on each of those.”

Aides say Tuesday’s meeting between the two sides will be the “moment of truth” when Downing Street decides whether a deal with Labour is possible or whether May must instead offer MPs a series of votes, in which a full-blown customs union is likely to triumph.

Damien 05-05-2019 12:02
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
I don't think that's awful for Tory Leavers is it? After all once out of the EU all that can be changed easily.

---------- Post added at 12:02 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993574)
When it all settles down and realistic negotiations start, a solution might be for there to be no customs union, but we pay the relevant VAT % into the EU so that there is no loss of customs integrity.
But you would still need to do checks to ensure regulatory compliance and to work out the tariffs.

1andrew1 05-05-2019 12:04
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35993694)
I don't think that's awful for Tory Leavers is it? After all once out of the EU all that can be changed easily.
Agreed - as Pip said from day one, this is the withdrawal agreement they're talking about, not the trade deal.

OLD BOY 05-05-2019 13:03
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35993694)
I don't think that's awful for Tory Leavers is it? After all once out of the EU all that can be changed easily.
I think we can agree on that. I have no problem with this as a transitional arrangement.

Provided we are free to negotiate a trade deal with the EU and other countries from the date we leave, we have made progress.

The ERG will be unhappy of course, because they don't want a transitional arrangement.

Sephiroth 05-05-2019 13:10
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35993694)
I don't think that's awful for Tory Leavers is it? After all once out of the EU all that can be changed easily.

---------- Post added at 12:02 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------



But you would still need to do checks to ensure regulatory compliance and to work out the tariffs.
would you need to work out the tariffs if it’s VAT? And how does it work with Switzerland which is not in the CU but has open border with France?

1andrew1 05-05-2019 13:34
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35993312)
And if the lies are repeated often enough (which they were, in the Express and Mail), people accept them as truth.

Sort of like "E.U. Corruption"...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...endum-36276175
Good to see the EU corruption myth being called out for what it is. Some will find this uncomfortable no doubt.

---------- Post added at 13:34 ---------- Previous post was at 13:27 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993707)
would you need to work out the tariffs if it’s VAT? And how does it work with Switzerland which is not in the CU but has open border with France?
It doesn't have an open border with France!
Quote:
This difference requires both sides to build and staff a hard border with sometimes significant delays. The French worry that someone might, for example, buy a frighteningly expensive Swiss watch, receive a Swiss tax refund since the watch is for export, and then not declare it for French VAT. The Swiss rigorously check that people have not spent more than €300 each on goods from France, depriving its exchequer of sales taxes. For trading companies, each load requires a customs declaration, multiple forms and stamps by the tax authorities to ensure that the formalities are closed on each side before goods cross the tax border. Within the Union none of this applies because complete regulatory alignment is married to an EU VAT regime, all within the customs union. This VAT system has its problems, but ensures that goods can flow across borders with no formalities. The Swiss-French border is efficient. There are no applicable tariffs. Regulations for goods are fully aligned. There is a common travel area between the two countries without the need for passport checks. But the border requires hard infrastructure because Switzerland is not in the EU VAT regime nor its customs union. Border frictions have separated markets either side of the border to the detriment of consumers. Regulatory alignment would remove only some of Brexit’s border barriers in Ireland.
https://www.ft.com/content/2d30482c-...9-c64b1c09b482

Damien 05-05-2019 14:03
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993707)
would you need to work out the tariffs if it’s VAT? And how does it work with Switzerland which is not in the CU but has open border with France?
Custom tariffs aren’t the same as the VAT.

Sephiroth 05-05-2019 14:52
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35993709)
Good to see the EU corruption myth being called out for what it is. Some will find this uncomfortable no doubt.

---------- Post added at 13:34 ---------- Previous post was at 13:27 ----------


It doesn't have an open border with France!

https://www.ft.com/content/2d30482c-...9-c64b1c09b482
It does. I.ve been there in the Geneva area.


---------- Post added at 14:52 ---------- Previous post was at 14:50 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35993713)
Custom tariffs aren’t the same as the VAT.
But the tariff value all filters down into the EU VAT levy. So that can be managed.

Hugh 05-05-2019 14:55
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993707)
would you need to work out the tariffs if it’s VAT? And how does it work with Switzerland which is not in the CU but has open border with France?
Switzerland Is an Associate Member of the Schengen Area, which allows free movement of people.

https://www.ft.com/content/2d30482c-...9-c64b1c09b482
Quote:
Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at https://www.ft.com/tour.
https://www.ft.com/content/2d30482c-...9-c64b1c09b482

As you come to the end of the airport approach road and hang a right, aiming to drive through Geneva city centre and then back into France, you are immediately stopped by heavy border infrastructure.

Three beige buildings with French and Swiss customs confront you, along with offices for both tax authorities. Europeans, accustomed to crossing other internal land borders within the EU, find this quite odd. Switzerland is part of the EU’s Schengen area, so there are no passport checks required for entry. For food and almost all tradeable industrial and agricultural goods, Switzerland’s regulations are also fully aligned with those of the EU. Both sides accept the others’ regulations. In reality, the Swiss copy and paste Brussels regulations into their domestic laws, allowing the landlocked state effectively to be a member of the EU single market for goods.

Border infrastructure and customs declarations are necessary, however, because Switzerland is not part of the EU’s customs union or value added tax regime, which are separate from the single market. This difference requires both sides to build and staff a hard border with sometimes significant delays.

The French worry that someone might, for example, buy a frighteningly expensive Swiss watch, receive a Swiss tax refund since the watch is for export, and then not declare it for French VAT. The Swiss rigorously check that people have not spent more than €300 each on goods from France, depriving its exchequer of sales taxes.

For trading companies, each load requires a customs declaration, multiple forms and stamps by the tax authorities to ensure that the formalities are closed on each side before goods cross the tax border. Within the Union none of this applies because complete regulatory alignment is married to an EU VAT regime, all within the customs union. This VAT system has its problems, but ensures that goods can flow across borders with no formalities.

The Swiss-French border is efficient. There are no applicable tariffs. Regulations for goods are fully aligned. There is a common travel area between the two countries without the need for passport checks. But the border requires hard infrastructure because Switzerland is not in the EU VAT regime nor its customs union. Border frictions have separated markets either side of the border to the detriment of consumers.

1andrew1 05-05-2019 17:20
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35993719)
It does. I.ve been there in the Geneva area.
I've been there too. Read the article again - there is a common travel area but try driving an HGV across and you'll appreciate the difference.

Pierre 05-05-2019 17:46
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35993694)
I don't think that's awful for Tory Leavers is it? After all once out of the EU all that can be changed easily.
Will it get the numbers though.

Many Tories won’t vote for it, some Labour won’t vote for it, SNP & LibDems won’t vote for it.

Corbyn may have to agree to a confirmatory vote to get full Labour support.

1andrew1 05-05-2019 18:35
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35993747)
Will it get the numbers though.

Many Tories won’t vote for it, some Labour won’t vote for it, SNP & LibDems won’t vote for it.

Corbyn may have to agree to a confirmatory vote to get full Labour support.
SNP and LibDems won't vote for any deal so they can be ruled out.
There is a majority in Parliament for Brexit but for a softer form of Brexit, so this may work. The fly in the ointment is the confirmatory vote which could scupper it and lead to Theresa May asking for meaningful votes on a range of possibilities leading to a potential softer Brexit deal.

Sephiroth 05-05-2019 19:09
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35993742)
I've been there too. Read the article again - there is a common travel area but try driving an HGV across and you'll appreciate the difference.
I hope the uploaded picture comes out OK. It's the border from Nyon, near Geneva into France. No sign of any customs infrastructure whatsoever. I admit to not having noticed any HGV go through.

OLD BOY 05-05-2019 19:30
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35993742)
I've been there too. Read the article again - there is a common travel area but try driving an HGV across and you'll appreciate the difference.
So why can't we have the same arrangement at the NI border. There you are, you see - proof you can make it work! :D

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:12 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35993754)
SNP and LibDems won't vote for any deal so they can be ruled out.
There is a majority in Parliament for Brexit but for a softer form of Brexit, so this may work. The fly in the ointment is the confirmatory vote which could scupper it and lead to Theresa May asking for meaningful votes on a range of possibilities leading to a potential softer Brexit deal.
A soft Brexit isn't Brexit. That would make people very angry.

Even if TM and JC agreed an approach, I think it would be scuppered by a significant number of backbench Conservative and Labour MPs who would vote against it.

I still think there is only one practical solution, given the opposition to TM's plan. Leave without a deal and apply the ten year protection rule provided for in WTO rules (Article 24 of the WTO's General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade). The justification would be that a pause is required to enable a comprehensive trade deal to be negotiated, and the aims of the UK and EU would be set out in that document. A plan and schedule would be required, and the plan would set out the matters to be negotiated. Since we know what we want (heaven only knows we've been negotiating with the EU for over two years now and we know what we want from a trade deal) and we know what the EU is prepared to give us, we know precisely what needs to be negotiated. The interim arrangements that would apply ahead of the eventual trade deal can be taken from the existing withdrawal agreement.

Although the WTO Article provides for a 10-year period, we would not require anywhere near that amount of time to agree a trade deal. Everything is already aligned with the EU anyway.

We would need the EU to agree to this approach, but why wouldn't they if it would ease the trading arrangements between our two countries? We could use the time between now and the new end date for leaving the EU to achieve just that.

Sephiroth 05-05-2019 20:15
Re: Brexit (New Poll Added)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35993771)
<SNIP>

Although the WTO Article provides for a 10-year period, we would not require anywhere near that amount of time to agree a trade deal. Everything is already aligned with the EU anyway.

We would need the EU to agree to this approach, but why wouldn't they if it would ease the trading arrangements between our two countries? We could use the time between now and the new end date for leaving the EU to achieve just that.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/759021/25_November_Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_ framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_ European_Union_and_the_United_Kingdom__.pdf

17. Against this backdrop, the Parties agree to develop an ambitious, wide-ranging and balanced economic partnership. This partnership will be comprehensive, encompassing a free trade area as well as wider sectoral cooperation where it is in the mutual interest of both Parties. It will be underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open
and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part...…...

XIV. LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR OPEN AND FAIR COMPETITION

79. The future relationship must ensure open and fair competition. Provisions to ensure this should cover state aid, competition, social and employment standards, environmental standards, climate change, and relevant tax matters, building on the level playing field arrangements provided for in the Withdrawal Agreement and commensurate with the overall economic relationship.....

-------------------------------------------

As you can see, the Political Declaration is intended to strap both hands and our d*ck behind our back, preventing us from gaining any competitive advantage from our independence.

No chance in negotiating a trade deal quickly unless we give this ground away.


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