Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Because Junker and Strassbourg won't be able to unilaterally tell us what to do. That is a massive thing.
They had taken away our right to self determination and it's only by sheer fluke that we've managed to take back control.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

What makes you think our politicians are fit and competent to

a) run the country and ensure are freedoms and rights are preserved (something the EU has had massive input in)
b) secure the deal that the UK needs to prosper and grow.
c) not take the UK into a political and economic 'dark ages'

Genuinely interested

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Germany has benefitted far more than any other nation due to the fact that were in not in the Eurozone the DeutscheMark would have been considerably higher thus affecting their export markets. The EU is supposed to be a common club, I don't see it as a measure of success that one part of the club does a whole lot better at the expense of another due to the undue influence of Germany over the whole. That's a failure and it's another direct cause of the problems I mentioned.

I've stated many time before that we are in between a rock and a hard place. Leaving is no panacea but neither is staying in, far from it in fact. My view on balance is that we have a better chance to survive and prosper outside the confines of the EU. We can determine our own policies according to our own needs and in a fast moving world this is vital. There are no guarantees of anything but if things go wrong at least we can decide how to react and proceed. Take a look at the problems in Greece for example to see how impossible their situation is in the EU with no power to take the decisions which are right for Greece.

As for Plan B, what's the EU's Plan B in the face of its severe problems? They no more have one than the UK does. In fact their refusal to countenance a change of direction is the root cause of the referendum result IMHO. All I know is that, on its own, the UK will be able to decide and implement whatever policy is deemed appropriate far more quickly than the EU ever would. We'll be able to make the decisions we need to make in the circumstances we find ourselves in and we can't do this in the EU.

No, that doesn't guarantee anything but I'm old enough to realise that nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes. We can all suggest what we'd say if it all goes wrong but there's no comfort in that. None of us know what's going to happen, we can only make decisions based on our knowledge, experience and intuition. You speak as if the outcome will be clear, quantifiable and unequivocal, when you've admitted yourself that after decades of practice the EU is far from perfect. Who'll be the arbiter of what the definition of success is? GDP? Earnings per head of population? Unemployment levels? Quality of services? Quality of life? :shrug:

If the EU becomes a Utopia and the UK descends into Third World status in the next few years then of course people will say it's a disaster and we should have stayed in. If the reverse is the case then they'll say the opposite. What does it matter what people say? We have argued for the right to determine our membership, we've decided to get out and what we need to do now if stop arguing about what's done and get on with trying to ensure we get the best possible result from it.

I think we're more likely to be better off out than in and if I'm wrong about that well so what? You think the opposite and if you're wrong so what? We have our views, I've explained mine and that's the best I can do. If I had a crystal ball I'd have used it.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Well they, as we, and the rest of the world were all complicit in the financial crisis, Spanish, Italian and Greek banks were all hugely over leveraged - and still are.

The single currency of the EU was a big factor in this, and probably should have failed at this point but in order to ensure it didn't fail huge austerity was forced onto Greece.

At one point it was even suggested appointing a German EU commissioner to over see the Greek financial issue.

http://the-greek-tragedy.blogspot.co...1_archive.html

The EU has no regard for sovereignty. But neither is it a federal system.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

You're changing the subject. I asked the remainers here:
"What is it about being controlled by an unelected, anti-democratic bureaucracy that you remainers like so much? "
I await the answer :)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Preciesly. I don't see the need to keep revisiting this question of why someone voted a certain way. For the most part it's pretty easy.

Those who voted Remain largely believed the economy would be harmed by an exit and judged it too high a price to pay for any gains of leaving the European Union - many of which Remainers would argue are exaggerated.

Those who voted to Leave largely believed the EU is too bloated and anti-democratic and judged the benefits of leaving to be worth the possible economic cost which many Leavers would argue are exaggerated.

Who is right or wrong there is depends on how you balance those questions as well as what the actual implication of leaving will be. Unless the economy truly plummets upon Leaving or it riches dithering heights the like of which we've never seen I suspect we'll never know for sure.

Still Remainers didn't vote that way because they love 'being controlled by an unelected, anti-democratic bureaucracy' and Leavers didn't vote Leave because they love the idea of risking the economy. Unfortunately the question was more complicated than that.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We vote in European elections, they produce MEP, if you decide to vote for UKIP whose manifesto is not to contribute to European parliament that's down to the individuals but what do you expect if they vote for anti European parties and suddenly these MEP don't get involved

IF you talking about the other parliament, these get promoted in by the elected leaders of each country who in turn have been elected by the sovereign nations in their national elections. that's down to our PM

I cant recall (so not word for word)who said it but I recall in last European when there was rise of anti euro MEP elected that "some hard working MEP have now been replaced by some non working MEP whose aim is to make it fail and then can produce rhetoric of its failing"

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The Treasury’s ‘Hard Brexit’ warning shows Project Fear isn’t over yet

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The £66 billion is over many years so the comparison to the defense budget is a bit superfluous, as is the fact that the defence budget is one of the smaller ticket items.

Incidentally one of the warnings from the 'dodgy dossier' was that Sterling would fall 15%.. As of today it's down 17%.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It is wrong now ,you may not think overcrowded schools,NHS at breaking point,people unable to get doctors appointments and social housing given to migrants is fine and dandy but all the above failings are a direct result of EU policy .Anything we do now can only be better

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------

When was the last time you ever heard a prospective PM trying to get elected using a "i will vote xxxx into the European Commission " ticket.The EC is responsible for legislation and day to day running of the EU ,that's the bit that effects all of us in very real ways,we get no vote on that and interestingly these leaders that are promoted by the elected leaders of sovereign nations are duty bound by their oath of office to represent the general interests of the EU NOT their country of origin .So not democratic,not elected by citizens and not working in member states interests

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Then there's what happens when Merkel offers a unilateral 'welcome' without consulting anyone else in Europe first about the patently obvious ramifications for the entire EU. Now that really was something that should never have happened.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Whingeing. Contemptuous. Unpatriotic. Damn the Bremoaners and their plot to subvert the will of the British people


You lost. Stop the anti-democratic games and respect the emphatic verdict of the British people.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...#ixzz4Mqjist5P
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Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Are you a Daily Mail 5th Columnist ;)

---------- Post added at 07:57 ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 ----------

This one, another fantasist, has been hired by David Davis to provide expertise on the process of leaving the EU:

Brexit adviser: leaving EU customs union will cost UK £25bn a year

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Good grief old boy you still reading that crap.;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I wasn't aware we had a plot! This is great news! I must ask for the details at the next meeting of the liberal metropolitan elite.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Was hardly emphatic, pretty much the opposite in fact

---------- Post added at 08:10 ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 ----------


You're not invited to the meeting, not wishy washy or hand wringing enough plus you haven't got any sandals

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Yep ,i think 'scraped through by the skin of our teeth' is more apt.Would have been better if it was an emphatic win one way or the other

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Exactly Den! :)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Emphatic is a Greek word. We're taking back control of it instead of letting meddling Eurocrats try and tell us what it means.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think another Greek word is more appropriate for this than emphatic, pyrrhic...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

1) Evidence that directly correletes that statement?
2) The opinion of someone who wears rose tinted glasses and refuses to see the potential damage done to the country

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 ----------

Idiotic little englander

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I may not be allowed to have my say post Brexit..but I can still think it..

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Could you imagine the reverse if Remain had won, and HMG decided to go for 'Hard Remain' and joined the Euro, Schengen, etc.?

Do you actually believe Brexiteers would have kept quiet? Would they have been 'Fifth Columnists' and 'traitors' if they had spoken out against those?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Article 3(2) of the Treaty on European Union (TEU); Articles 4(2)(a), 20, 26 and 45-48 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU).
Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States; Regulation (EU) No 492/2011 on freedom of movement for workers within the Union; Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 on the coordination of social security systems and its implementing Regulation (EC) No 987/2009


It's impossible to have so much migration and have no extra strain put on services .

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

no i just post drivel from it to see who bites;) :tu: to you for not biting /:td:to all the usual bandwagoneers

---------- Post added at 16:33 ---------- Previous post was at 16:28 ----------

:shrug:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

He can't mean you're an idiotic little englander papa, he must mean the DM bloke. Everyone knows smurfs come from...ummm...where are all you smurfs coming from? :erm:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

gulp :shocked::eeek:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Aha! Papa, you are an idiotic little Belgian :).

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We'd have to slap tariffs on products throughout the world or have tariffs on none unless we had free trade agreements.

We can't trade tariff free with everyone as it'd destroy much of what's left of our manufacturing base.

We can't have free trade agreements until our schedule of tariffs and quotas is sorted with the WTO.

We need agreement from the 163+ members of the WTO on our schedule before it's ratified.

I appreciate if you listen to the three Brexiteers and their fan club none of this is an issue, there's no legal ambiguity at all and it'll be smooth as silk. I'm just going by what the guy in charge of accession to the WTO said, under the possibly mistaken impression he knows more these matters than Boris Johnson or David Davis.

It would be awesome if it were that simple, and businesses far less stressed.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Meanwhile in real world...
Tesco pulls dozens of Unilever brands in post-Brexit price row
http://news.sky.com/story/tesco-pull...e-row-10614934

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

They'll sort that. Unilever have already managed to get their prices accepted at other places. Most likely they'll cut a deal with Tesco.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I don't pretend to be an expert or even marginally knowledgable but how square this

https://www.ft.com/content/5741129a-...f-79eb4891c97d

With this

http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/int-trade.shtml

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I was told in no uncertain terms that they are the wrong type of expert,they don't count.

The right kind of experts are the one's that predict UKplc being swallowed up in black hole of financial ruin

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The right kind of experts are those without an axe to grind, and are not pushing either side of the agenda...

(Not the ones you agree with you...)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Does such a beast even exist? :confused::(

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

There are no experts in what's happening because it's never been done before and for every 'expert' who says one thing there'll be another who says the opposite. The only sensible thing for us to do now is have the courage of our convictions and negotiate on that basis, not sell the UK short by giving away our negotiating position before we even start the process.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

A campaigning group aren't impartial. At a General Election if Unison released a paper stating that Labour had the best economic plan you would take it with a rather massive pinch of salt. A group whose very purpose is to advocate for a political position are always going to issue positive statements regarding that position.

---------- Post added at 22:54 ---------- Previous post was at 22:33 ----------

Incidentally actually looking at the site you don't have to find much reason to doubt them. Look at this on if the referendum is binding: http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/ref...-binding.shtml It's hardly confidence inspiring with the amount of commentary they mix in their their analysis. I mean serious releases do not end like this:

No matter how much you personally agree with the sentiments expressed it's not unbiased advice.

Also I am like 80% sure they're wrong anyway. I don't think you can bind Parliament to do anything. Parliament can repel the laws they make and even if that isn't case the EU vote was not a law.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

who says they have to be impartial to have a valid opinion and be correct in what they say .

They didn't say it was law ,just binding ,which it was .Parliament would never overturn the vote of the majority .

Look at this way ,if the predictions and views of the right experts (the one's who are impartial according to you)are correct why hasn't Parliament overturned the vote for the good of the nation that's their job isn't it ? The answer is simply because no one knows for certain what can or should be done in this instance ,impartial experts have no better an idea of what should or can be done than experts fighting a cause because there are no procedures set in stone and it's never been done before .We are essentially a test case for the rest of Europe .

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

How is it binding if it isn't enforced by law? The AV vote for example was legally binding. When you link to 'lawyers for britain' I assumed you were referencing them for legal advice and not their personal opinions on politics. They're experts in law after all.

Because there would be a political cost, not a legal one. Also the Government policy isn't to have a vote anyway but they could if they wanted.

No, there are people who know. You can legally bind the government but Parliament cannot be bound entirely, it ultimately can repeal the laws it makes.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The AV referendum was binding because as part of the act that was the legal basis for that referendum was the necessary laws to enact it.

No such provisions were made in the EU referendum. It is politically binding for sure, it would take something catastrophic to provide any justification for ignoring it, but not legally binding. I could provide a bunch of separate sources for this but it's the mainstream and accepted view, including by Parliament.

Those guys may be lawyers but they are lawyers who started off with a position then started looking for ways to prove their point, rather than looking at the law and assessing their position from that.

There are loads more lawyers on the opposite side of the argument - http://lawyers-inforbritain.uk/signatories/ - but nonetheless both need taking with a fairly hefty pinch of salt as both have an axe to grind.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The independent fact checking sites.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

What constitutes independence or bias in the context of an issue like Brexit? Can anyone be truly unbiased on such a matter and how do we know how much 'bias' has been applied* to the gathering, interpretation and/or presentation of the 'facts' our 'experts' (on both sides) rely upon? :shrug:

* whether deliberately, unintentionally, directly or indirectly.

The Beeb is supposed to be fairly unbiased isn't it? Well I've just heard a BBC TV news reporter commenting on a report (linked to a BBC investigation) about mistakes made by Concentrix in their handling of tax credit claims. In her words: 'many people were having their money stopped by mistake'.

Is that unbiased? It could be argued that it's just vague or deliberately intended to create a certain impression. If the figures are available why weren't they or even estimates given? If there are no figures how do we know it's 'many' people who're affected? What percentage of claimants have had their payments wrongly stopped? 50%, 20%, 10%, 2%, 0.01%? Even the latter might turn out to be quite a number but without any reference to actual numbers it could be argued that deliberately choosing the word 'many' was intended to give the impression of a bigger problem when using the word 'some' would have had less impact and therefore be less newsworthy. Now of course having payments stopped is likely to be a big issue for those affected and 1 mistake is 1 too many but if the overall percentage of mistakes made was just a couple of percent or even less, it's hard to imagine that much more could be done to improve matters since no system is ever perfect and some mistakes will always slip through. So is this sort of thing just sloppiness or bias? Whatever the reason/intention, something as simple as the choice of a word can have a big bearing on the conclusions which will be drawn so we can have no guarantees of veracity.

There are so many questions and unknowns surrounding everything that Brexit involves that seeking certainty, total independence or whatever is going to be like searching for the Holy Grail. Furthermore if we start dismissing every source of information because, just for example, someone involved is paid via the EU or is a member of UKIP etc. etc., I think we're going to be left with our own gut feeling to go on. Being 'biased' doesn't preclude anyone from being right but being 'independent' doesn't guarantee it either. Who's the arbiter of bias? :shrug:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's harder to find absolute certainty and sensible to acknowledge alternative scenarios to those suggested by the experts but that doesn't mean we reject expert advice wholesale because of the possibility they might be wrong. It's a balance of probabilities thing.

There are absolutes in this world. If Brexit is or is not right is not one of them but some of the information we use to make such decisions can be.

There seems to be a movement to position everything into a silo of political bias and thus reject any idea of balance or impartiality. I think it's because when you do that then you can any criticism of a particular position as politically motivated and thus wrong. Partisan expertise do exist of course but the trick is to distinguish them from those who are largely* impartial. So FullFact, a group who don't seem to have any motivation to spin or a particular position they're advocating for, should be taken more seriously than 'Lawyers for Britain' whose very existence is to campaign for a political goal. Understanding the motivations of sources helps in determining their credibility.

*as impartial as you can be. Obviously many of us taken certain concepts for granted given the society we grew up in and so on.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Yes and there'll always be clear examples on both sides of every argument. We're still left, however, with a vast array of sources whose motives and conclusions we can't be certain of one way or the other. I think this whole argument is becoming too binary when real life isn't like that at all. It's perfectly possible for both sides of the Brexit debate to be right or wrong about certain aspects of it. It's equally likely that they're deliberately skewing 'facts' and selecting the sources which they feel best suit their argument whilst ignoring or disputing those which don't. What's the public supposed to do about that?

What's true, I feel, is that the Remain side have a whole lot more to gain by delaying/complicating this process and exploiting/creating uncertainties which may suit their argument and political standing even in the short term but won't help us to secure the best possible deal from the impending negotiations. They may not like the result but we have to get on with this now and endlessly bickering about who was more misleading than whom in the run up to the referendum is a dangerous game to play. If the House of Commons had immediately got fully behind the decision and decided to work together for the common god, would Sterling have fallen so far? I doubt it very much. In fact some may say that Sterling's value is one of the main sticks the Remain side have to beat HMG with so they have every reason to carry on creating even exaggerating uncertainties in order to put further pressure on it and thereby try to influence the general public and undermine the Government. If things carry on like this I feel we're in great danger of winding up with the worst of both worlds rather than the best or anything even approaching that. I really can't see why anyone who had the UK's interests at heart would want that. :shrug:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I suspect that it's only a matter of time before some fact checking site is discovered to be biased :D
But, yes, I agree with that for the moment :)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Unless those gathering/interpreting the data don't have any opinions, how can we ever know that no bias whatsoever has come into play, even if those involved genuinely don't intend or realise it? :spin:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

They have to go overboard on checks and balances to remove bias if at all possible as, if being unbiased is your USP, the moment you can be legitimately proven to be biased you're out of business :)

---------- Post added at 12:29 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------

Yep. They put the demand in a few weeks ago. Tesco have just decided to call their bluff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQqi_vV0ny8

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Not a great lover of Tesco but l am glad they stood up to Unilever as if Tesco give in then who will be next.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm sure they'll come to an agreement. I'm taking no sides; Unilever have seen revenues drop due to the Pound tanking and don't want to bear the costs, Tesco don't want to lose market share by charging more or lose profit margin by sucking up the increased prices Unilever is asking.

Chances are they'll strike a deal somewhere in between and the price on the shelf will have to go up. This isn't Tesco nobly standing up to big, bad Unilever. Tesco have a history of treating suppliers, especially smaller ones without the strength of Unilever, like something they just trod in. I'm sure Unilever do much the same where they can with retailers.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We can still strive for impartial information and there are things in this world which are empirically true. Something like Brexit is too broad a question for there to be an expert to tell us categorically if it's the right or wrong decision but there are aspects to Brexit in which information helps that decision and that's where experts come in useful. Experts can also make informed predictions about the future too even if that is less precise.


Dissent and opposition is just part of democratic politics. I don't think it can be avoided especially when the country itself, who Parliament represent, are so divided on the question. The country can't get behind the government on this when we can't agree on what we want or know what they're going for. Certainly May has not been given, in my opinion, a mandate to go for whatever version of Brexit she feels is best.

Would it help if we were all united? Probably. However I think a clear idea of what we're after and what might happen would help a lot more. It's the uncertainty and not the dissent that it causing sterling to drop IMO.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37640982 Race and religious hate crimes rose 41% after EU vote

All a bit depressing. Brexit seems to have brought the worst in British people. Previously we had an excellent reputation for welcoming those making a contribution to our society. Those that aren't making a contribution seem to be the ones using this as an excuse to drag the rest of the country into the gutter.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Gotta say devaluation of the Pound is doing wonders for British exports.

[img][/img]

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statisti...n-EU_Data.aspx

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

no one is ever 100% unbiased, everyone has an angle, everybody is ultimately in it for themselves.

---------- Post added at 16:09 ---------- Previous post was at 16:09 ----------

Range rovers have never been so cheap.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Of course it is, but the dissent adds to the impression of uncertainty in a situation like this. It's the same during times of national crisis - sometimes party politics has to be put to one side for the greater good and I can't see how continuing in this ridiculous manner is serving anyone any good. This problem can become self fulfilling if we allow it to.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Completely agree ,i for one want someone totally biased towards Brexit ,i do not want some wishy washy expert sitting on the fence 'cos he's impartial ,i want experts advising who will commit to a decision and stick to it because they believe it to be right .Impartiality will not do us any good in this situation.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm glad I don't live in your world....

---------- Post added at 16:35 ---------- Previous post was at 16:34 ----------

Facts are impartial, interpretation isn't...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

There are too many open questions about what kind of deal we could get to make this possible. The Government, not Parliament, will decide what terms to ask for and what to give away so there is no need to rally behind a common approach to Brexit - there isn't one.

Remainers aren't rallying around the government here but equally the Government aren't seeking to reach out to them or ally their fears. In fact the Tory Party Conference made it clear that this isn't on the cards. The 52% won and the 48% didn't and that's it. Which is fair enough, the 52% did win and the government is right and obliged to act upon that. However at the same time if everyone else is being completely shut out, their concerns dismissed as elitist and unpatriotic, then the government shouldn't expect their support either. If you choose to embrace that divide then you can't complain it exists. Again that isn't to excuse Remain, we're embracing that divide as well.

For my part I think we have to leave the EU and can't overturn the referendum, obviously. However the talk of EU worker lists, the lack of assurance for current EU citizens and leaving the single market entirely is everything I feared Brexit would be. I'm not going to support those things.

---------- Post added at 16:48 ---------- Previous post was at 16:44 ----------

Then they're going to give you terrible advice. A good negotiation depends on you understanding the hand you've been dealt.

If I am going though a divorce I don't want my lawyer to be biased towards my side of the dispute, telling me I am better of without her, and I am going to get the house, the kids and the savings. Only to find out my case was weak and the advice, whilst being what I want to hear, was wrong and I am going to be the mug at the end of it all. Cold, hard, calculation with impartial facts is what you want from the experts advising you and extreme competence is what you want from those making deals for you. You don't want cheerleaders.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We need a list of working migrants so we know who has a right to be here and who doesn't when we leave ,that's fairly obvious .There is a technical term for it that escapes me right now, something like keeping track of migrants ;).We will also have a list of the unemployed migrants claiming benefits ( don't tell anyone but there the ones we want rid of come leaving day)do you also object to us having a list of them ?


Rubbish ,what you will get is advice from someone who is determined to make it work for the good of the country .We are not playing cards ,trying to bluff a bad hand we have a good hand already ,we have stuff that Europe want ,they have stuff we want the only stumbling point is how easy we will make it for each other to get that stuff .We can be a lot more flexible ,there's only one of us ,the EU have 27 nations to appease all bitching behind each others backs

---------- Post added at 17:04 ---------- Previous post was at 17:03 ----------

During Brexit we do ,absolutely we do

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

That's part of the problem though - it's the 'talk' of this, that, or the other which is stirring everyone up, frequently with no real basis. What assurances can be given on anything substantial before negotiations have been opened without affecting our negotiating position at the same time? What assurances (or scare stories for that matter) do we get prior to elections and how often do they actually materialise? If we want to get the best deal out of Brexit we need to start the process with a strong hand having not a) already having divulged what we will be prepared to accept or b) already talked our economy down to the point where we've put the other side at a distinct advantage due to our perceived desperation.

I don't think anyone can seriously doubt that the best way to come out of any negotiation on top is to start from a position of strength rather than weakness due to a largely self-induced currency 'crisis'. Sterling aside, our economy has been performing better than the EU for some time which ought to be enhancing our position but that's all been undone, for now at least, by all the focus on Sterling and subsequent jitters.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's not rubbish although I have since revised the analogy.

Impartiality can blind you to information you may not like. You want people who'll be honest with you and give you sound advice not obscured by their personal motivations. If we have a weakness we need to know about it, if we're overplaying a hand we may not win we need to know about. Demanding we want biased experts is madness.

This:

won't help us. Thankfully I doubt the government will recruit such people and go after professionals instead.

---------- Post added at 17:11 ---------- Previous post was at 17:09 ----------

Then what's the point in hiring them at all? You pay me £250,000 a year and I'll tell you how great you are however many times you want.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I simply do not agree ,i think your vision of a Brexit utopia full of unbiased experts refusing to commit ,always stating the worst case scenario instead of stating what is possible and working towards that, is the worst thing that can happen

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think the sterling 'crisis' is precisely because we have no idea about the deal. I don't think that could be helped either way. Markets don't like uncertainty and that's what we have. Even if all Remainers went 'hoorah for Brexit!' the certainty would exist.

I agree May can't give away everything but there was no need for a lot of the lines being drawn at that conference. I also think she can't be given a blank cheque but either way she does actually have it. Since it's not a Parliamentary decision she can do whatever deal she wants. If Parliament could veto a deal when that would undermine her but it doesn't.

(maybe that's her plan? then after the deal is done, surprise vote?)

---------- Post added at 17:20 ---------- Previous post was at 17:18 ----------

I don't want experts to 'commit' I want them to give advice. :confused: I don't want them to give the worst or best case scenario, I want to know both and the likelihood of them.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Because we need cheerleaders to big the country up ,we will no longer have Europe to do it for us .For the last 40 yrs we have been hidden behind the skirts of Europe ,unable to make any real changes ourselves and unable to trade ourselves ,now we can so lets stop poncing about and worrying about what might happen if we do this or that and lets start making stuff happen as we want it to because that is what Germany or France would do in the same situation .

---------- Post added at 17:33 ---------- Previous post was at 17:23 ----------

I want experts that believe in Brexit to give me advice because that is what is going to happen.They can still give sound advice .

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The whole case for Brexit was based on not listening to experts. The Financial Times has a good ongoing section on Brexit but for specific advice you need to spend money and speak to your accountant and lawyer.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Rhetoric on both sides is unhelpful at the minute and the EU is as much at fault as the government both sides are talking things up and declaring positions prior to negotiations lets just hope this doesn't hamstring negotiations.

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Like the 'fact' that we would all be £3500/year worse off after brexit or that we will give £350 million/year to the NHS? Or that WW3 will happen because of brexit? :D

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Those two 'facts' were campaign pledges and were disparaged by the experts. Both of them were intentionally misleading people on the actual facts underneath.

£4,300 a year:

£350 a million a week:

The claim that the UK sends £350 million per week to the EU is wrong.

Of course both Remain and Leave cited 'experts' for their claims which is why independent and objective experts are more valuable.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

That being the real word.

Sharing, community etc etc, is fine if it meets your needs, but boil it down and you will do whatever it takes to look after your own family first, or you're a liar...or stupid....if you say otherwise.


But we digress.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Now tusk is saying the only alternative to hard brexit is no brexit yep there's the caring, sharing and listening EU always willing to learn from it's past mistakes, it's this sort of stupidity that created the resentment of the EU that led to a leave vote

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think I've already posted multiple times that they can't give us any significant bespoke concessions as it'd lead to the EU falling apart. This position should be absolutely no surprise to anyone. If they bend the rules for us when we're leaving others will join us.

Were we staying in then we would have a right to complain if they aren't listening to us, but right now we have no right to expect them to make any kind of concessions to us.

On the positive side we at least can speculate now on the form the negotiations will take. David Davis and the rest talking to a brick wall with the EU's four freedoms on it.

Either way it's pretty arrogant to claim the EU-27 should care about us, share with us or listen to us now, especially given the behaviour of some of our politicians. We're leaving the EU for our own self-interest, the EU has to behave in its own self-interest, which as a whole is exactly the approach Tusk is advocating.

Tusk is the one who after the referendum was saying that the EU did need to reform and that the result was a wake up call I might add. He's also Polish, so probably hasn't found the post-referendum spike of xenophobia focused heavily on Polish migrants here too amusing.

All that said it was made quite clear that we were welcome to stay if we changed our mind. I strongly suspect the EU will enact some reforms over the next couple of years, as contrary to your thoughts they have been listening even if absurdly slow moving about it, in the hope that those concessions, demographic changes, and the impacts of Brexit as they start to bite within the UK will change our minds along with keeping the more restive members of the group happy.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

and the Nobel Prize in Hypocrisy goes to ...

People have been going on for years on how the EU is not democratic and here you have some who thinks that people who do not agree with the Government should be silenced.

Post-Brexit thread
 

The Walloonian Parliament in Belgium has blocked the proposed trade deal between the EU and Canada.
Brexiters might argue that this shows how the UK can act more swiftly with deals as an independent entity. The bigger question is how well does it bode for a deal between the UK and EU?
https://www.ft.com/content/df6841f4-...9-61bcc6c3ed11

Re: Post-Brexit thread
 

Going by the rhetoric we aren't getting one, either permanent or transitional, for the foreseeable. Financial services and manufacturers need to start putting their contingency plans into effect and indeed some already have.

Also I note the UK is apparently planning to direct foreign aid towards winning support in WTO schedule talks. So what David Davis and others have said about a seamless transition with no legal ambiguity looks like a lie.

I am shocked. David Davis has been so honest, on the rare occasion he's actually said anything substantial, since he took up his new post.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I don't know why you should be shocked - if we must spend circa £12B/yr at all, let's do it this way, rather than to give aid to Countries so poor they have their own space program etc.

Maybe this way we'll have something to show for it. We could call it 'foreign interest Investment' or similar.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm not shocked that we're trying to bribe smooth passage back into full WTO membership and scheduling, bribery is one of our main policy tools, I'm shocked we are having to at all. Those experts at Lawyers for Britain along with David Davis and others said there'd be no issues, a smooth transition. Now it turns out we have to bribe the third world.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Interesting fact about the Indian space programme, in its 40 years of existence it's spent in total less than what nasa does in a year. Up until very recently it was solely used to put communication satellites up. It'd also be worth remembering the kerfuffle we kicked up when they had the temerity to buy their fighter planes of someone else, they asked us then was the aid money a bribe and that they didn't need it. imo they should've gone further and said we couldn't give a toss about your war on terror, helping you gather intelligence or setting up madrasas that don't spread an extremist message which iirc is what most of not all the aid money is assigned to.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

No one likes banks anyway. Who cares if every single one of them up sticks and go, it's what we voted for

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.ind...android-h3g-gb

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Looks like we're bribing Nissan unless the whole of the UK has no EU tariffs and retains freedom of movement.

"Group chief Carlos Ghosn told Sunderland plant will have same trade conditions after EU exit" "Nissan’s concerns around trading barriers extend not only to the export of its cars from the site but access to a European supply chain as well as international talent."
https://www.ft.com/content/68c12fbe-...8-d3778b55a923

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The £350m was wrong. It is £376million.:D

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We're used to spin and deception from politicians, this bunch seem to have been learning lessons in honesty and truthfulness from Donald J Trump. Rather than twisting the truth just come up with out and out bovine excreta. There is no way, absolutely no way, that Theresa May can supply those guarantees as she apparently did in their meeting earlier.

As Jonathan Pie said in the gig I was at earlier regardless of Brexit that government is what we voted for, so we only have ourselves to blame for the BS we're being fed on a variety of topics.

Post-fact politics is such a joy.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Looks like Mark Carney will be leaving soon: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...r-theresa-may/

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

l cannot blame him at all as he has done a pretty good job IMO and certainly does not need interfering politicians telling him what to do.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Does anyone need interfering politicians telling them what to do, not needing them has never stopped them before

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Remoaners told to decide: Are you FOR Britain or AGAINST Britain?

“REMOANER" politicians and business leaders have been challenged to decide whether they are “for Britain or against Britain" and get behind Theresa May's Brexit negotiations



http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...gainst-Britain

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Neither ,just unbiased :D

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I wonder if this weeks hysterical headlines about 'Remoaners' are the press getting their excuses in early. It's clear that nothing will be the fault of Brexit and all of it will be fault of Remain. Tanking sterling? Not because May said she would issue Article 50 in March and won't compromise on free movement. It's those Remoaners. Prices getting more expense? Nothing to do with the exchange rate for imports. It's the Remoaners.

I wish we had this omnipresent power before the vote.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Good riddance. His predictions on interest rates have been useless and his political interventions ill-advised and now he's telling our Prime Minister what to do?

Boot up the arse asap please.

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The BoE is meant to be independent.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

haven't noticed much of that lately

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Tell Carney that when he butts his nose in to political matters like Brexit.

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Can't say I blame him. That the BoE is not joining in the propaganda fest is probably very irritating to the powers that be.

EDIT: Just completed reading the article. If Theresa May et al are so desperate for a change they could try doing their bit with fiscal policy. Investing in things like the health service rather than demanding it do more with less year on year, to make us all more productive. Investing in infrastructure to make the UK more competitive.

I note the three MPs the Telegraph mentioned criticising Carney were all vehement leavers. Their complaints are entirely because the output from the BoE disagrees with their dogma.

This is pathetic. The entire country is being run through the lens of exit of the EU right now with anyone who dissents from the vision of it being amazing being accused of talking the country down and in need of reeducation. At some point, with help from the Express and Mail especially, we seem to have ended up where you'd expect the country to be while at war.

I note the Chancellor didn't join in this criticism, and as noted approved the most recent round of QE.

Governance of the country right now is downright alarming. Presumably next will be a mass purge of the 'remoaners' in the civil service.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

its terrible what racists will do
'Poland rule the world' Polish sisters spared jail after brutal racist attack on Brits

Aleksandra, who along with her sister came to Britain with their family under EU freedom of movement laws, told one of the girls: "Don't mess with us Polish girls.’’

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/721...men-Manchester

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

No, he wants to leave because the job is too big for him. He reminds me of a sweaty Richard Nixon. He's not standing on the shoulders of giants, he's grasping on by his fingertips.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

See above about complaints regarding him because he disagrees with dogma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Carney

Given you're incapable of writing anything worth reading on this topic as a whole I think I'll save my time reading it.

---------- Post added at 11:34 ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 ----------

I see papa smurf is honouring us with links from the Express.

I'll join in with there and others - links only due to size of images.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuqqZ3zXgAAJIMO.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuqqZ32XEAQFmb8.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CurOUSKWcAAqEVs.jpg

Which leads to:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuoTNa2WgAQ2yZP.jpg

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Looks like you wish will not come to pass:

No extra money for NHS, Theresa May tells health chief

You can strike one of the Brexit big lies off the list ...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Well on the upside, Damien, at least we know who the Express want to scapegoat if they can't scapegoat immigrants anymore.

Few are doing as much to undermine the UK as they are right now. Barrel thoroughly being scraped.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/721...ion-referendum

---------- Post added at 11:38 ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 ----------

Yeah I'd read that, it's why I mentioned it first off. Even with the extra cash that the NHS is getting it's going to receive nowhere near enough to even keep pace with increases in demand.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We haven't left the European Union yet, and won't do for at least another 2.5 years, until then we keep paying into it.

So even if we were to spend some of the EU money on the NHS it Wouldn't see it for around 3 years from now. so it still has to sort itself out now.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Well they could stop sending me appointment dates translated into every conceivable language for a start,paper costs and postage must be astronomical ,they know what language i speak and they know what ethnic group i belong to .A small saving i know but the point is from my experience the NHS is really inefficient.Don't forget as well that in a few years migrants will no longer the right live and work here so that alone should reduce the numbers the NHS is expected to treat

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

leaving the EU before we have control back of our money is a little complicated for some to grasp but hey ho onwards and upwards .