re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

yes his supporters will just sweep it under the rug as per usual .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well if stay wins we'll have a front row seat at the EU implosion show.

Just hope the lifeboats are manned and dodgy Dave has our wallet hidden.:erm:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nobody has suggested any illegality though ,what the issue is ,is that monies aimed at small farmers is being used by rich farmers who's estates are self sufficient .It's a bit like millionaires claiming the state pension

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/

Facts about the European Union
On 23 June, there will be a vote to decide whether the UK should remain a member of the European Union, or leave and take back control. It’s a big decision – and there may not be another chance to vote for years. Here are the facts:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Small world :D
We were in the stalls (first tier). Looking up from the stage we would have been at 11 o'clock.
We were surrounded by left wing remanians (judging by what they were saying). I had to shush them several times as they were chattering so loudly over the 'in' campaigners that I couldn't hear what was being said!
I could have easily had a punch up with the pair behind us-well dressed chaps, well spoken, but they didn't realise that I'd heard them refer to me as "that Telegraph reading ar*ehole" ( I was reading it on my phone before the debate started)
I thought Nick Clegg wasn't very gentlemanly. He kept talking over the Tory woman & I loved the way that Farage kept telling him to "stop lying" about various facts and figures :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Farage vs Clegg was by far more interesting than the other two.

I was in the third tier and the audience there was left-wing too although I should you expect it for a Guardian debate. I don't really like heckling or audience members expressing their disapproval to each other in a very obvious way either. The audience was a bit more balanced at the top though and there was at least one guy who was shouting stuff all though.

You may have preferred The Spectator one in the same venue a few weeks later. It was already sold out by the time I saw it but that would have been a more right-wing audience. Clegg was there too as was Daniel Hannan who I used like but now sort of find him very intellectually dishonest.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You are confusing red-top press rabid hyperbole with reality.

The CAP is not meant to support 'smal farmers', no matter what the Express says...

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-631_en.htm

Nothing about 'small farmers' there... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

what would the EU and the extended Cameron family do without you defending handouts .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I missed the Spectator one as well. Gutted about that. You can see it here if you want to. Enjoyed the Guardian one despite the sillyness from the remanians sat around me and was pleased that 'out' won the evenings debate even though it was a tough audience. :)

---------- Post added at 21:01 ---------- Previous post was at 20:56 ----------

Here you go then: Brexit: The (animated) Movie
For those, like arcimedes, with short attention spans. It's got more graphics & gets to the point more succinctly. Easily understood. :)
A good vid nevertheless. :tu:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Or as it's normally known, pointing out facts... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Odd that you didn't point out this mans conflict of interest in campaigning for remain, it might have been different if he'd declared said interest but he either isn't honest enough to have done that or doesn't believe in the righteousness of his cause to divulge. I'm sure it wouldn't have escaped your attention if it'd been the Labour leader doing the same. Actually it's not odd, there is seemingly nothing your won't defend the conservative party from.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The worst thing people can do in this referendum is follow political party lines as all that has done in recent times has divided us and been a good distraction allowing politicians of all colours to be less then honourable. It really comes down to the simple question of are we better off in the eu or out in the mid to longterm and vote accordingly. I think the referendum will show a gap between the older and younger more then elections do as younger people have grown up under the eu they haven't known a world without and older can remember that politicians and their lunacy aside the uk is perfectly able to survive outside of the eu and prosper.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Brexit is getting desperate: Boris is resorting to Hitler comparisons:

EU Referendum: Boris Johnson compares EU's aims to Hitler's

As Basil once said (and Ken recently discovered), "don't mention the war .."

The Brexit Tories are now just UKIP, they have lost the Economic argument and are now just left with just the Immigrant card ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He's been swapping notes with Ken Livingstone

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

[QUOTE=ianch99;35837724]Brexit is getting desperate: Boris is resorting to Hitler comparisons:

EU Referendum: Boris Johnson compares EU's aims to Hitler's

As Basil once said (and Ken recently discovered), "don't mention the war .."

The Brexit Tories are now just UKIP, they have lost the Economic argument and are now just left with just the Immigrant card ..[/QUO

- was it not Cameron who cited world wars for a reason for staying in Europe so we can keep an eye on them ?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

AIsn't he just saying what we are thinking? If you want a super state then by all means vote remain.



---------- Post added at 08:33 ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 ----------

[QUOTE=papa smurf;35837728]Who said we have lost the economic argument? Not from where I sit we haven't. We are also left with the independence and sovereignty cards.

Boris is right. How can you berate a man for telling the truth? Yes it's a bit strong - a shock tactic, not desperation.

The Germans couldn't do it in 2 world wars. The French couldn't do it in Napoleon's time. The EU will not succeed either if we vote leave. We've all said it and not a word has been said but when Boris says it he is berated for it. Cameron used the soldiers who died in both wars to justify a Remain vote, what's the difference? It makes me so angry.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well let me see:

Bank of England
IMF
The President of the USA
CBI
OECD

Can you provide sources of similar authority advocating the Brexit case?

Boris used to be regarded as a harmless clown. Now he is revealing his true nature: a calculating opportunist. He senses Dave is weak and vulnerable even if he wins the vote and is positioning himself for a Leadership bid even though, he has no national political experience.

Here he is changing his tune when it suits him:

Boris Johnson accused of 'dishonest gymnastics' over TTIP U-turn

I don't think I have read you comparing the EU to a man who committed genocide and being responsible for the deaths of tens of millions?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I was hoping for an adult debate about this issue.Seems both sides are determined to stick to rhetoric,hyperbole,supposition without a single real fact between them.Fat chance!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Continuing the adult debate ;), they think it's all over, well it is now! ABBA (ok, Bjorn) has spoken:

Abba's Björn Ulvaeus on UK's European Union referendum

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think you've been a bit selective about the facts there Hugh .Every single piece of literature about the reformed CAP states quite clearly that those reforms are partly aimed at small farmers ,to redistribute the monies more effectively and fairly .These reforms took effect in 2014 and were the result of 3yrs of negotiations with member states

This PDF outlines the reforms and the purpose behind them

This is the relevant bit

At the moment 80% of CAP aid goes to 25% of farms ,most of the budget goes to mega farms owned by the likes of Camerons father in law even Nestle get given millions whilst the small farms get very little. The reforms are meant to redirect CAP subsidies to smaller farms and young farmers starting up .
Whilst CAP is there to help all farmers large and small it is simply not true to say that CAP is not there to help small farmers because the purpose of some of the reforms is precisely that .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

its a family forum so we can expect the debate to be a mixture of ages and opinions, its not just adult opinions that are welcome is it ?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

And here's what Boris actually said

and i for one quite agree

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I sincerely hope so otherwise discussion on the forum would rapidly dry up :D

If we were having a discussion about mathematics we could be reasonably certain of the facts. Unfortunately in the real world there is no such thing especially with predictions.

Anyway I think its time we asked France to give us back all our possessions that various English Kings lost.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Boris is smart enough to know the differences between these things and politically astute enough to know that invoking Hitler would be would grab headlines.

It's not really any more stupid than saying WW3 would kick off had we left but it's a bit disingenuous to be outraged by Cameron saying that and to nod sagely when Boris does the same sorta thing.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yep. I read that this morning and I thought: :doh:
......and I support Boris! :(

---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------

Just musing here, but imo, anyone that doesn't actually know what the stated, cast iron, aims of the EU are, what the ultimate goal of the EU is........isn't qualified to be arguing in this thread. They should simply sit quietly and read it, perhaps ask a question or two. But argue (in or out), no. :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well to simply put it the EU isn't qualified to run itself. They don't have a clue what is going on so anyone posting on here to be frank is an opinion and not actual fact.

Look at the migration of all these immigrants and the open border policy all went out of the window and the EU start imposing border controls going against their own policy.

When it comes to protecting their own interests all these member states will stab each other in the back and/or the whole clicky clicky you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours.

I personally think the UK has run it's course with the EU it is pretty clear that a lot of the member states don't like us whether there is trade agreements in place or not and I think the UK it tolerated by the EU rather than friends with us.

How many of these states do you think would come to our help in a crisis? the European people couldn't even cast a vote on the Eurovision last night when it came to the UK

It would be nice to or maybe I have missed it but listen to what the EU people think of all this rather than the Governments.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Neither parties actually said what the papers said they said .Cameron didn't say the world would descend into WW3 if we leave the EU any more than Boris said the EU was the same as Hitler .It's the media that are twisting what the in/out campaign are saying

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Maybe you should start a 'safe space' to debate these things?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No not on here I haven't but in the street and at home I have.

Bank of England
IMF
The President of the USA
CBI
OECD

The same institutions who said we were doomed if we didn't join the Euro?
The same institutions who couldn't predict the crash in 2008?
the same institutions who have been wrong on the economy 7 times since 2010? Why listen to them?

---------- Post added at 13:39 ---------- Previous post was at 13:32 ----------

I think both sides have been damaged lately and it's time for the real party to begin.

Get those battle buses out and tell the people the truth.

Oh some undecided will listen to the Economists but as Carney said this morning on Andrew Marr. "We always take the Government's position.' Does this really give his findings any credibility?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nothing to do with me being offended. I'm simply amazed at the lack of basic knowledge about the EU being displayed in this thread.
You know, like what it's primary fecking aim is!! :dunce:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's primary 'feching' aim is to create a United States of Europe. One big happy family under one umbrella. Nice thought in an ideal world but we don't live in an ideal world, do we?

Actually, in all seriousness, it's primary aim was a single market not a political union.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

From here:http://leaveeu.site44.com/


---------- Post added at 14:09 ---------- Previous post was at 14:07 ----------

I disagree. It's always been about power. Trade was (and is) used to sneak it into power.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I agree 100%, especially after watching and listening to debates and information on French media.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What's the French media saying in general?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yep power too. They get that by creating a USE. They get it by us staying in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

you should read this it will become clear that political union was always the primary aim even as far back as 1950

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You want your politicians to behave like children?:confused:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Anyone looking for impartial information may find this site useful.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Many being interviewed, professional or public, have been saying that Brexit should signal Frexit. Although many called it "The Rebirth of France " (La Renaissance de France).

The Euro was as a mistake, especially allowing countries with huge debts to join it. And many price increases are blamed on it not on the global collapse.

Trying to extend the EU borders to countries with low incomes and poor job prospects has started mass migration to the north and west that those richer countries cannot afford. Racism against people from the old Soviet Bloc was growing, not against the rich or educated, but against the "gitans" (gipsies).

Unelected mandarins are running the EU with a plan to form the ESU which will destroy French identity.

And on the subject of Turkey joining, it has been a resounding "NON!"

But the other side has mostly been the more well-off praising the EU for preventing war. And not much else.

Some of the old guard have been saying that a strong EU (or ESU) will threaten Russia too much for it to be ignored.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Waits for someone to deny that any such impartial organisation can exist. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

i can't imagine hugh posting facts from an "impartial organisation" that weren't really impartial .:shocked:

---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

they already do -i was referring to forum posters being from young to old with opinions that reflect the age gap .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I bet Greece feel the same about the Euro. Was indeed a big mistake. It was doomed from the start.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I hope this is impartial, should be dropping through your door soon

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36286993

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:47 ----------

I'm guessing they don't as they're still in it

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Anyone notice the Government spent £9m on their booklet but the Electoral Commission "only" spent £6.4m "including" a TV advert?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I just want the vote if people don't have a position by now they are never going too i'm getting fed up of the excrement from both sides and debate in a way is pointless because the EU will not fully disclose it's future plans. Brief economic uncertainty aside i've not seen or heard a thing that makes me want to vote to stay in and our referendum is creating debate in other countries about the same vote. Many in mainland europe are as fed up with the EU as us and want either complete reform or a disbanding of it and if nothing else this referendum in the UK has started that.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sounds reasonable to me.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My apologies for the misunderstanding.:)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not through their own choice:
and the plan that was to be imposed on Greece if they did try to leave was a bit much:
link

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

and they still prefer all that to just actually leaving?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Actually leaving the Euro would have been so catastrophic that it would have to have been planned and executed just like that.

I still think they should have done it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I do, it would've led to a breakup of the EU without a referendum.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm wondering what all this fear about us leaving is doing to all those pesky billionaires who're buying up chunks of London. They don't seem to have been too worried about the risk of us leaving in the last few years do they.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well as quite a few of them aren't residents of the EU being from Russia,China and Eastern Europe I guess they aren't..;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Because they realise the risk of us leaving is close to zero. Brits are mad, but not that mad.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What, these astute individuals aren't worried about the UK being turned into an economic wasteland if we dare to leave the warm and cuddly, benevolent and almost maternal protection offered by the EU? That wouldn't do their investments much good would it...;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

EU referendum: Brexit campaign has the edge, says Telegraph poll


Supporters of Brexit are more likely to vote in the forthcoming referendum which could give the Leave campaign a decisive edge in the final result, a new Telegraph poll suggests.


Analysis of the survey by Sir Lynton Crosby shows that voters who want Britain to leave the European Union are more motivated than those who say they are in favour of staying in.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...n-in-June.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If leaving the EU is so catastrophic to the world we know from all these doom givers then why in gods earth did Cameron even put it to the vote?

Without any doubt they must have already had models in place on the outcome should we leave long before he even suggested it to the public.

I'm even sure when he started this EU reform he already knew he wasn't going to get what he suggested and has now started this hate campaign against his own people.

Desperate times call for desperate measures and he's been pulling in favours all over the world.

The EU to me is "buy cheap, buy twice" kind of deal I for one would certainly like to see us leave better now than in 30 years time when the EU is at war with itself

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He had no choice. It was the only way to neutralise UKIP and stop other swivel eyed loons in his own party from leaving. He's postponing the inevitable though. He just needed to win the election and worry about the consequences of his 'promises' later. Later, like Camerons time, has now come. He may 'win' this referendum; but it's goodbye from Dave thank God.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I've decided to vote leave.

It's better we control our own rules, even if it cost years of suffering.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

One aspect of all this I loathe is the name calling both sides and some of their supporters are indulging in whether your going to vote in or out doesn't warrant name calling because of your belief and along with the fear mongering has made this referendum far more unpleasant then it needed to be. I know in this day and age social divide is preferred by many for different reasons and whatever the outcome of the vote both sides need to state facts and reality to try and keep the nation as united as possible. Whatever the result I hope it's a clear choice as both sides will be calling for another vote if it's too close.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well the Irish had to vote again because they couldn't get it right. It'll be the same here for sure.:rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I have to be honest the Irish situation should have been a warning for everyone as clearly there is only one way in the EU, their way and you'll be harassed until you see it their way. Not a tactic that will work so well in the UK though if the margin for leave is over 5% it's a dead issue and making us do multiple votes will only increase that margin as more will get angry. As I've said this is a personal belief vote and nobody is wrong in how they vote if it's truly what they believe and shouldn't be insulted because of it. I think if nothing else this referendum has also highlighted how poor our political class is and that in or out the people of the UK deserve better then what we currently have.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The type of homes these people buy probably won't be at risk short of a war that levels London. They don't care. The uber rich, several orders magnitude more than 'peer of the realm' rich, live in a completely different world.

Polls already weight for likely voting.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Weighting is very tricky without a reference sample. There hasn't been a referendum like this before.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

One of the reasons many of these people get so rich is because they do care about their wealth and investments, very much.

I know when I bought my last penthouse in Belgravia I thought long and hard about it I can tell you. ;)

Anyway, if we do leave and the UK is reduced to a second rate economy perhaps that'll help reverse the flow of migrants. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

True but the polls will use the same 'likely to vote' measurement the Telegraph is using for that article. I am not sure how exactly they're doing any other weighting but I imagine it's from the last General Election.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

:tu:
.....and I really don't think it will :)

---------- Post added at 20:51 ---------- Previous post was at 20:50 ----------

One step at a time :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There's no way that we're going to vote out and be asked again. That would set off WWIII :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Of course not..they are just laundering their ill gotten gains and do so through shell companies and off shore havens..They will sell up when circumstances suit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

... and if we're reduced to a banana republic as predicted by Messrs All & Sundry, there'll be no gains only spectacular losses.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Frankly I pay IDS,Gove,Boris etc very little mind and Cameron and Osborne only a teensy fraction more. Neither you or them have given me any useful info on which I can rely..just hyperbole and ranting.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Maggy there is so much personal belief in this issue that what motivates many of us in our choice of vote may not translate to you hence my saying that each person must find their own reason for whatever way they may vote. Being honest the lack of any real substance to help those who are undecided leaves me feeling that in or out little will really change but neither side wants to say that hence the fear mongering and provocative but ultimately empty rhetoric.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Originally Posted by Hom3r View Post
I've decided to vote leave.

It's better we control our own rules, even if it cost years of suffering.

I'm glad to hear it hom3r. let's hope there are more like you as we approach the big day.

As to your post, it won't happen. True, you may get a technical recession where things go awry for 2 quarters but then it will sort itself out. There is bound to be some uncertainty whether we stay or leave. The reason I say 'may' is the EU need us to buy their stuff and I think may be only too willing to give us a good trade deal unlike other countries who may not by their goods and services as much as we do.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

EXCLUSIVE: David Cameron's EU sham exposed: Leaked letter reveals PM hatched anti-Brexit plot ... while still telling voters he could campaign to leave



A pact between David Cameron and big business to scare Britain into staying in the EU was exposed last night.
A leaked letter suggests the Prime Minister was plotting with a multinational firm on how to hammer home the Remain case while still claiming he was prepared to campaign to leave.
He had been telling the Commons that he ‘ruled nothing out’ unless he won concessions from the EU.

Labour’s Gisela Stuart, a Leave campaigner, accused the PM of being ‘knee deep’ in conspiracy. Serco has multi-billion-pound contracts with the Government.
Tory MP Steve Baker said: ‘This is proof that big corporates are being asked to gang up on hard-working British families to try to bully them into staying in the EU.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz48tJvf1T7
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Of course, there are Remainers who will say the source is biased but I quote from a biased source too and it usually backs me up - The Torygraph.

Yes the Early paper review touched on this at 5.45 this morning on BBC News but so far nothing has been said on the main News. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he's involved in a conspiracy. The Leave Campaign have been saying all weekend that the Corporate World are trying to scare us into a Remain vote and that kind of backs it up. We all know what Afroman says about the Corporate World at the end of his song Cus I Got High?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Seems the corporate world are not all singing from Dave's songsheet:

Linky

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Some context on some of these "business leaders":

Pro-Brexit bosses include retirees and tax avoidance experts

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That is where I see it. if these smaller countries have been doing trade with the UK and need our trade then it could go one or 2 ways these smaller countries might pull out of the EU if the UK were to leave so that business as usual could still be done or they could cut ties with us and trade elsewhere that is if they have the time to do this or even possible.

the EU setting a load of red tape in order to stop the UK trading if we leave is only going to add more strain onto the EU. I personally think the EU wouldn't want this and trade would still continue.

I'm sure they wouldn't want to disrupt the "status quo" on trade

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I linked you to some decent info a few pages back iirc

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Then why don't you just vote as I suggested using your gut instinct. That'd be sensible given you clearly believe you have been given no facts and only have hyperbole and ranting to go on. One of the few benefits of age is experience so now's the time to really use it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

For those undecided on how they are going to vote on June 23rd try asking yourself these questions:

Whether or not the EU is a good or bad thing for the common man, what do you yourself think or believe? What does your gut instinct say to the following questions?

Do you want to be ruled by Brussels as part of a European Super State?

Do you think the money we send to the EU could be better spent in the UK?

Do you want your Justice System back?

Do you want to control Immigration more?


Do you believe the Government, IMF, BoE and all those who predict doom and gloom?

Do you think your lifestyle will improve if we leave the EU because of the money we'll save?

Do you believe the EU is a Democracy?

Do you seriously believe the UK benefits from being a Member of the EU better than it did in 1975?

Do you think more powers will be taken by Brussels if we stay in the EU?

Do you think jobs will be lost if we leave the EU?

Do you believe those who say we would become a Banana Republic?

Do you believe in British Sovereignty?

Do you think the EU will reform if we remain?

Do you think they really care about the UK or is it that they need our trade?

Hopefully this will help make up your minds. I can think of lots more questions and I'm sure you all can too.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Tried to answer as honestly as I can Brian, and yes it has made up my mind.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I probably will..but it would have been nice to have been treated as an adult by those who want my vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If you think Dave's a plonker. vote out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

myths that David Cameron's peddling about what would happen if the UK decides to leave the EU


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-leave-EU.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Its made me lean towards staying rather than leaving. Now isn't the right time to be leaving imo

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This will be your only chance to leave. There won't be another time unless the EU implodes.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Correct. If we stay in I have no doubt the EU and our current/future govts. will act to make any further attempts at us leaving more difficult in one way or another. Look how much it's taken to finally get us this referendum! We will not have more power or even the status quo, gradually we will have less power as has been the case during the entire period we've been members of the 'club'. That is the EU's undeniable raison d'etre after all.

It's always struck me as odd that devolution within the UK is being pursued on many levels - regionally and nationally, yet at the same time our glorious leaders feel we're better off being reduced to a fraction of a large EU whole with power wielded centrally and relentlessly from Brussels and Frankfurt in a fashion which does entirely the opposite and with the aim of taking away 'local' powers and reducing democracy. It's really quite surreal.

Anyway it's quite clear to me that this will be our one chance to get out in anything resembling an orderly fashion, if at all. I'll be going to my grave knowing I voted to take it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well let's go through them:

1. No. 2. YES. 3. YES. 4. YES. 5. NO. 6. YES. 7. NO. 8. NO. 9. YES. 10. NO. 11. NO. 12. YES. 13. NO. 14. NO.

That would make me vote leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I credit you on your honesty, and on being more EUphile than Nick Clegg, et al. Even they at least try and pretend they think the EU will be reformed at some point. :tu:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I have a few problems with Brian's questions but here are my answers and/or comments
1. I consider this question to be biased
2. Dont know
3. Also biased and emotive
4. No
5. Undecided
6. No
7. Yes
8. Dont know
9. I object to the word Brussels as I consider it emotive
10. Yes
11. No
12. Emotive anyway what does British sovereignty mean?
13. Yes
14. Dont know

Would that make me vote one way or the other? No

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Good set of questions there. Here are my answers;

Do you want to be ruled by Brussels as part of a European Super State?

If one existed, I would need to know more about it. However, at present, the system works pretty well

Do you think the money we send to the EU could be better spent in the UK?

No, I think the value for money we get from being in the EU is worth the 1% we spend on it. Thinking in purely cash terms is misleading, the value of customs union alone is worth it

Do you want your Justice System back?

Not quite sure what we have lost here? We have a justice system that seems to work pretty well. There are of course EU courts which rule of EU legislation.

Do you want to control Immigration more?

I would restrict immigration to allow people to work but that's in place already

Do you believe the Government, IMF, BoE and all those who predict doom and gloom?

More than Boris and the bloke that runs Wetherspoons

Do you think your lifestyle will improve if we leave the EU because of the money we'll save?

No, costs will increase and the value of the pound will drop

Do you believe the EU is a Democracy?

Very much so, more democratic than the UK, having proportional representation and no house of lords

Do you seriously believe the UK benefits from being a Member of the EU better than it did in 1975?

Yes, no trade tariffs and freedom of movement benefit the UK massively

Do you think more powers will be taken by Brussels if we stay in the EU?

Only if the UK government allow it to happen

Do you think jobs will be lost if we leave the EU?

Yes

Do you believe those who say we would become a Banana Republic?

No, but we would be financially poorer and our reputation globally would be seriously dented. The only world leader who wants us to leave is Vladimir Putin, every other nation thinks we should stay

Do you believe in British Sovereignty?

Yes, but we live in a global society. We have had treaties and agreements long before the EU. If you really want complete sovereignty, we would also need to leave the IMF, WTO, United Nations, etc. Basically, become North Korea.

Do you think the EU will reform if we remain?

Yes, I think this will be a catalyst for change

Do you think they really care about the UK or is it that they need our trade?

These can't be taken in isolation. We share a lot of values with our European neighbours and these are invaluable, especially when it comes to trade

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Answered like a true Pro-European. Well Done. Tell me to the Remainers have a script they stick to cos you sound just like Cameron. Or could it be the leaflet the Government spent £9m. on, which btw I never got and I need something to start a bonfire in the garden, brainwashing you. You are all singing from the same Hymn sheet. Can't you at least give us your reasons for remaining instead of being a parrot?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Understood. Please remind me when I got to vote for any members of the Commission, and of the powers the people I did get to vote for have in terms of bringing legislation forward.

Also be good to know when I was able to vote for the President of the European Council, the President of the European Union Commission or the President of the European Parliament.

I must've missed those elections.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I have never voted for the Conservative party in my life and doubt I ever will. My wife thought I would flash in to flame when I crossed the boundary or Rickmansworth Conservative Club!

My opinions, and they are mine, are born out of working in Europe and with Europeans (my boss is German, the rest of my team are Belgian, French and Austrian) I work for a US company with a global reach and have some understanding of the pain of doing business in non-EU companies. I am a scientist by trade but love learning about modern history, especially the history post second world war of which the formation of the EU is a part.

However, the most important thing is that I do not trust the media, especially the press. They are all following their own agendas to put spin on issues. So, for example, the Mail says the EU is not democratic, I then don't take this on face value but look in to this and what do you know, it's not really true.

I did read the governments leaflet and found it wishy washy, without much evidence but a basis for me to investigate further. My mind was made up long before the leaflet came out I'm afraid but I will happily look in to anything that will prove me wrong.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The problem of the EU's democracy is that it isn't ours. Like everything else they believe in, it binds every member nation and is never going to truly reflect what the majority of people of the member states want. We can change our government and some say Corbyn's going to revolutionise the way things are done in the UK. How's he, or anyone else, going to do that when the future in the EU is inexorably more central control with correspondingly less able to be done by our own directly elected governments? It doesn't stack up I'm afraid. As 1 of 28 (or more) member states, our voice is just one of many, few of whom have similar national goals, interests and objectives to ours. We've seen in Greece what happens to those who dare to want something different from those based in Frankfurt who know best.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I dont think Greece is a good example. I you want a very large loan because of your incompetence you have to put up with the consequences.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's an excellent example because had it not been for the EU and the Euro the Greeks could have devalued their currency and pursued their own economic policy, interest rates etc. without being constrained by Brussels and one size fits all which have hugely exacerbated the problem.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Is our system better though, and how?

The big difference I see between the EU parliament and our own is the lack of party politics in the EU parliament. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. It's good in some ways as there isn't a whip. That said, there are of course loose groups in the Parliament such as the ECR and EPP but they don't have the power of parties in the UK Parliament.

The bad side as I see it is that you can tend to end up with consensus politics rather than having a single party government driving decisions through. Of course, single party governments are not truly representative either, ask the Scottish what they think of the Westminster government and whether it really represents their interests.

I don't think the way the systems work can really point to one systems being better than the other, they are just on a spectrum of parliamentary systems. Swings and roundabouts I guess...

Sorry, stream of consciousness on my lunch break :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Fair enough you have your reasons, I have mine. Will your job be effected if we vote to leave?

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:13 ----------

This is the crux of the matter. They don't have their own monetary policy now, they have to do what the EU tells them. They can't get out of the mess on their own and I doubt they ever will now. They are due a big payment at the end of the month to the EU in the Billions. Can't see them being able to pay it all so the EU will slap more conditions on them. To those who want to stay I ask this: If Britain were in the same position as the Greeks and had to borrow to get them out the crud, would you be happy with the conditions imposed on Greece being applied to the UK?