Cable Forum - ntl:HD?

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well yes stuart, but thats why i put the 'without the anologue conversion that the SD STB does today' bit in there.

if your (un)lucky enough to be in the 20% TW bit of NTL and have access to the old mpeg2 HD 'tv drive' today then great ( if you can live with the vaulty firmware by all accounts), but its assumed the average+ ntl readers dont, and perhaps wont for a while longer, at least 6+ months it seems.

ohh and lets face it, having direct access to the raw .ts stream stored directly on your PC harddrive will always be better for any moderately interested end user that wants to watch their chosen tv content anywere, over the fixed extreamly limited (by ntl's choice/inaction,etc) STB, weather its the mpeg2 or the hoped for but unlikely AVC/H.264 STB box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by popper

well yes stuart, but thats why i put the 'without the anologue conversion that the SD STB does today' bit in there.

Then I don't understand the point of the comment. The thread isn't about the current SD offering from NTL, so the current generation of Set Top Boxes are not relevant to the question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart C

Then I don't understand the point of the comment. The thread isn't about the current SD offering from NTL, so the current generation of Set Top Boxes are not relevant to the question.

well, you pulled off my sub-comment about getting DVB-C(2) etc.

Quote:

iv not seen anything much on DVB-C2, DVB-T2 or DVB-H2 for that matter, does anything exist yet for them?.

not that its ever likely that NTL will ever let you rent or buy a DVB-C(2) card to put your payed for smart card into and just take the .ts content directly to your monitor or HD ready display and hence get a far better quality picture without the anologue conversion that the SD STB does today.

i was just pointing out that if you could have direct access to the .ts stream into your PC, then infact if you did have a HD ready PC video card and HDTV, then you could have better quality pictures today , as your PC would then be able to pass the digital .ts feed directly to the HDTV without the conversion that the current ntl SD STB does.

watching the DVB-T .ts feed directly on my PC monitor right now is FAR better quality than the NTL STB through the SD TV, even with the scart RGB setting turned on.

the NTL feed to the STB is the same spec .ts feed my DVB-T is receaving, but by the time its gone through all the conversions at both ends its a lot werse , its all relative, sure, but it comes down to people wanting a better quality picture.

if you want to advocate the old mpeg2 .ts 'TV drive' as the general option, great, i prefer to advocate UK/EU inovation and perhaps we might get it one day (soon?).

i suspect that with all these US people inside ntl upper managment, we will continue to have to take all the old mpeg2 idea's and kit that have proven ok in times past for those american firms profits, rather than get real inovation that just about all the EU will be using for a very long time to come.

its all pritty clear really, DVB is the standard all the UK should be using, along with wireless networking tech, and AVC content, not kitting up today with the old junk just to milk the last bits of profit out of it, the uk used to be full of inovators, were are they now, the TV drive isnt inovating, its junk milking the last profits out of the UK end users, do you not agree ?.

I thoght it was ILLEGAL to connect any thing that was not ntl's to there network E.G DVB-C cards ,dreambox (cable version) or dbox2 etc,

Quote:

Originally Posted by popper

well, you pulled off my sub-comment about getting DVB-C(2) etc.

i was just pointing out that if you could have direct access to the .ts stream into your PC, then infact if you did have a HD ready PC video card and HDTV, then you could have better quality pictures today , as your PC would then be able to pass the digital .ts feed directly to the HDTV without the conversion that the current ntl SD STB does.

watching the DVB-T .ts feed directly on my PC monitor right now is FAR better quality than the NTL STB through the SD TV, even with the scart RGB setting turned on.

the NTL feed to the STB is the same spec .ts feed my DVB-T is receaving, but by the time its gone through all the conversions at both ends its a lot werse , its all relative, sure, but it comes down to people wanting a better quality picture.

if you want to advocate the old mpeg2 .ts 'TV drive' as the general option, great, i prefer to advocate UK/EU inovation and perhaps we might get it one day (soon?).

i suspect that with all these US people inside ntl upper managment, we will continue to have to take all the old mpeg2 idea's and kit that have proven ok in times past for those american firms profits, rather than get real inovation that just about all the EU will be using for a very long time to come.

its all pritty clear really, DVB is the standard all the UK should be using, along with wireless networking tech, and AVC content, not kitting up today with the old junk just to milk the last bits of profit out of it, the uk used to be full of inovators, were are they now, the TV drive isnt inovating, its junk milking the last profits out of the UK end users, do you not agree ?.

h.264 handles artifacting better then MPEG-2 video however, you would see that blocking would not be a big / issue at all with HD, given correct bitrates.

The only thing Neil that MPEG-2 is inferior to h.264 is the the amount of bandwidth used, an issue that remains transparent to the customer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by popper

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart C

Then I don't understand the point of the comment. The thread isn't about the current SD offering from NTL, so the current generation of Set Top Boxes are not relevant to the question.

well, you pulled off my sub-comment about getting DVB-C(2) etc.

Quote:

I haven't advocated either MPEG 2 or 4 (in fact, given the choice, I would rather have MPEG 4 and NTL using the bandwidth saved for more HD channels). I was merely pointing out that the current generation of boxes (which you appear to be referring to) are Standard Definition, so therefore not relevant to the thread. The tv drive (and the new NTL HD box) have HDMI, which is already digital, and should give a picture quality equal to or better than your PC (depending on the spec of your PC).

Quote:

Originally Posted by popper

yea, thats what we have been saying for a very long time now, the fact is, AVC/H.264 was always going to be better quality per bit rate as thats what it was intended to do from the very beginning and the lossless part of AVC will be used more and more as time and the whole EU get going, the new DVB-H (handheld) will also become the industry standard for lower than SD (CIF 384x288 or Widescreen versions of that?)or perhaps even SD.

when/if all the commercial streaming TV stations dump the old and antiquated MS codec's and start using AVC/H.264 the better for everyone as it just gives far better quality even at CIF sizes scaled to full screen monitors.

if the OP wants to see more use of their 'HD ready' TV then they might look to getting one of the new 'HD ready' PC gfx cards coming to market and stuff all the PC content through that, while not really HD, it will be far easyer to scale the output to HD type forms than anything NTL in the 80% non TW area's can produce for some time yet.

also they might look to getting the FTA (free to air) sat pci/USB DVB-S2 card (but DVB-S will do for know at least until/if they change to the S2 format later in the test)
and then they can also get the BBC/itv/c4/c5 HD trials , although your going to need a really fast dual CPU and coreAVC codec to display it at the required 25fps.

iv not seen anything much on DVB-C2, DVB-T2 or DVB-H2 for that matter, does anything exist yet for them?.

not that its ever likely that NTL will ever let you rent or buy a DVB-C(2) card to put your payed for smart card into and just take the .ts content directly to your monitor or HD ready display and hence get a far better quality picture without the anologue conversion that the SD STB does today.

VC1 or Windows Media 9 codecs offer similar performance to H.264 or MPEG4 Part10 codecs.

Curently for the UK market, only the BBC and Sky are doing transmissions over satellite with MPEG4 Part 10. Level 4 (HD).

DVB C2, T2 and H2 do not exist. The DVB are not developing them. Certainly DTT and Cable have higher order modulation methods available to them (QAM256 for example for DVB C) as part of their original spec. DVB S2 allows Higher order modulation settings not specified in the DVB S spec.

---------- Post added at 22:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:15 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by popper

the NTL feed to the STB is the same spec .ts feed my DVB-T is receaving, but by the time its gone through all the conversions at both ends its a lot werse , its all relative, sure, but it comes down to people wanting a better quality picture.
SNIP
its all pritty clear really, DVB is the standard all the UK should be using, along with wireless networking tech, and AVC content, not kitting up today with the old junk just to milk the last bits of profit out of it, the uk used to be full of inovators, were are they now, the TV drive isnt inovating, its junk milking the last profits out of the UK end users, do you not agree ?.

The DVB specs only specify the modulation method to use for DVB T, DVB C and DVB S (S2). The Transport Streams are identical in each case. Hence the Transport stream getting to your DTT box is the same as the ntl signal for example for ITV (taken from DTT in the headend). theres no degradation in the conversion process.

However I have to agree, the muppet who chose MPEG2 over MPEG4 for ntl/Telewests HD offering is a clown. Theres two possible reasons,
1) Cost -The kit is cheaper than MPEG4 stuff.
2) A contract with STB supplier (SA) which they couldn't get out of.

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:27 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtwn

Each multiplex has a finite amount of bitrate available to it. A statistical Multiplex shares the available bitrate between the channels sharing that Multiplex. Hence given an MPEG2 HD multiplex where each channel needs around 16 or so Mb/s and cable has approx 38Mb/s available, that approx 2 programs per transport stream.
An MPEG4 HD channel is more along the lines of 10Mb/s, hence allowing 3 or so channels per multiplex.
As statistical multiplexing relies upon differences between the component channels, the more channels the better. Hence MPEG4 is the far more attractive method (by example a third in this case).

i assume that creative is refering to mpeg4-AVC (part 10 aka H.264) rather that the older Mpeg4-ASP (part2 aka divx/xvid).

i always find bonds doom9 codec graphic very telling with regards the different options or lack of options the main codecs have.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96059

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/02/54.png

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creative

However I have to agree, the muppet who chose MPEG2 over MPEG4 for ntl/Telewests HD offering is a clown. Theres two possible reasons,
1) Cost -The kit is cheaper than MPEG4 stuff.
2) A contract with STB supplier (SA) which they couldn't get out of.

It may have been a combination of the two. NTL were originally going for the Scientific Atlanta 8450 ( http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/...tas-mpeg-4-pvr ). Although the 8450 no longer seems to the on the Scientific Atlanta site, so it may be that SA dropped it for some reason.

creative, what do you make of the fact NTL/Virgin are going to use cheaper options rather than the far better DVB-H long term options that the rest of the EU etc are going to use?.

http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/news.php?...ss=193&id=1788
Virgin Mobile 'to launch TV in the autumn'

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2007/03/17.jpg Virgin Mobile—now part of UK cable group ntl—will reportedly launch its DAB-IP broadcast mobile TV service in conjunction with BT Movio in the autumn.
IT news site ZDnet.co.uk said Virgin had a three-month exclusivity period with BT. According to ZDnet.co.uk content partners for the mobile TV service will be announced within a month.

Handsets will be based on HTC's Trilogy and will run on Windows Mobile 5.0. ZDnet.co.uk said BT planned to announce details of a new mobile TV technology this week.

Last month the BBC and ITV said they would supply content for the technical trial of mobile television broadcast via DAB spectrum involving two approaches: Terrestrial Digital Multimedia Broadcasting (T-DMB) and Internet Protocol over DAB (DAB-IP).
Lovelace Consulting | 10.07.2006

Popper, please bear in mind that the subject is High definition TV From NTL. Disucssion about a mobile offering that Virgin may or may not be offering is off topic, and should take place in another thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by popper

Broadcasters wouldn't use anything other than the Main or High Profiles at Level 3 (SD) or Level 4 (HD).
The lower Profiles don't provide Broadcast quality pictures and are usually used for lower resolution pictures (although some broadcasters don't seem that bothered about picture quality!)

Your table shows the toolsets that can be implemented as part of the Profile, but as an example I don't know of any realtime encoder which currently supports MBAFF. Should be available later this year though.

---------- Post added at 10:38 ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by popper

creative, what do you make of the fact NTL/Virgin are going to use cheaper options rather than the far better DVB-H long term options that the rest of the EU etc are going to use?.

At first glance it looks like its transmitted on the back of DAB radio. That may well limit the technology which can be used. This way they don't have to set up another network of transmitters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart C

fair enough.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...856#post777856