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-   -   20mph in Wales. (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33707670)

Hugh 08-05-2019 12:17
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35994132)
[/B]



The reason given by the council for making my street a 20 mph zone was children play on the road:shrug: they don't if they want to stay alive.
Heartwarming and compassionate, as always. :shrug:

That's the problem with kids - they're kids, and often act without thinking (no matter how many times we tell them). The latest figures show that at 20mph, there is a 1.5% (1 in 66ish) chance of being fatally injured - at 30mph it's 8% (1 in 12ish); so driving 10mph faster increases the chance of a fatality over 5 times.

nomadking 08-05-2019 12:26
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35994136)
Heartwarming and compassionate, as always. :shrug:

That's the problem with kids - they're kids, and often act without thinking (no matter how many times we tell them). The latest figures show that at 20mph, there is a 1.5% (1 in 66ish) chance of being fatally injured - at 30mph it's 8% (1 in 12ish); so driving 10mph faster increases the chance of a fatality over 5 times.
Why should they be playing in the middle of a through road? What the odds of being fatally injured, if you're not in the middle of the road when you're not supposed to be? IIRC With the very first pedestrian fatality from a car, the vehicle was only travelling at 4mph. If you step right out in front of a car, speed isn't a factor.

Link
Quote:
Reducing the speed limit to 20mph has caused a rise in death and serious injuries, a council has admitted, but is refusing to reverse the scheme because it will cost too much. Bath and North East Somerset Council spent £871,000 bringing in the 13 new speed zones just 12 months ago.
But one year on, a report has found that the rate of people killed or seriously injured has gone up in seven out of the 13 new 20mph zones.
The review of the traffic control measures warns that this is a problem nationally, adding: "There is no simple explanation for this adverse trend but it could be that local people perceive the area to be safer due to the presence of the 20mph restrictions and thus are less diligent when walking and crossing roads, cycling or otherwise travelling."
...
This is not the first warning that 20mph areas are more dangerous. In 2010 the Department for Transport reviewed the scheme in Portsmouth, one of the first areas to adopt it, and found that number of people killed or seriously injured on affected roads actually went up, not down, after the limit was lowered.

Mythica 08-05-2019 12:43
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35994137)
Why should they be playing in the middle of a through road? What the odds of being fatally injured, if you're not in the middle of the road when you're not supposed to be? IIRC With the very first pedestrian fatality from a car, the vehicle was only travelling at 4mph. If you step right out in front of a car, speed isn't a factor.

Link
Was the speed a factor in why the people died or got seriously injured? For example, did they die because the car was going 20mph instead of they would have survived if the car was going 30mph? Or is it because people have the attitude of blame everyone else instead of being at fault themselves? The article you quoted says "

"There is no simple explanation for this adverse trend but it could be that local people perceive the area to be safer due to the presence of the 20mph restrictions and thus are less diligent when walking and crossing roads, cycling or otherwise travelling."

Which could indicate that the reducing the speed limit didn't actually do anything other than people blaming it for something it hasn't done, they've done it.

nomadking 08-05-2019 13:11
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35994138)
Was the speed a factor in why the people died or got seriously injured? For example, did they die because the car was going 20mph instead of they would have survived if the car was going 30mph? Or is it because people have the attitude of blame everyone else instead of being at fault themselves? The article you quoted says "

"There is no simple explanation for this adverse trend but it could be that local people perceive the area to be safer due to the presence of the 20mph restrictions and thus are less diligent when walking and crossing roads, cycling or otherwise travelling."

Which could indicate that the reducing the speed limit didn't actually do anything other than people blaming it for something it hasn't done, they've done it.
As the quote says "could be". It's mere speculation and the usual of trying to come up with feeble excuses. Are we expected to believe that people consciously think to themselves, "oh it's 20mph, so we'll take less care"?



Quote:
Despite evidence that 20mph speed limits can lead to small reductions in vehicle speed, a 2017 survey by
Brake and Churchill Car Insurance of 2,000 UK drivers revealed that more than half (52%) of drivers admit to
driving at 25mph or faster in a 20mph speed limit, and 26% admitted to speeding in 20mph limits once a week
or more.

Hugh 08-05-2019 13:14
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35994137)
Why should they be playing in the middle of a through road? What the odds of being fatally injured, if you're not in the middle of the road when you're not supposed to be? IIRC With the very first pedestrian fatality from a car, the vehicle was only travelling at 4mph. If you step right out in front of a car, speed isn't a factor.

Link
They don’t just play, they often run after things, or step out from behind parked cars, so if the cars are travelling slower, they have a great chance of surviving.

The Council’s findings about the increase in accidents were challenged.

http://roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/stak...-20mph-scheme/

Mythica 08-05-2019 13:27
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35994140)
As the quote says "could be". It's mere speculation and the usual of trying to come up with feeble excuses. Are we expected to believe that people consciously think to themselves, "oh it's 20mph, so we'll take less care"?
I wouldn't say it's mere speculation. What's the other option? Reducing speed by 10mph from 30mph to 20mph makes more people die or get seriously injured? How on earth does that make any sense. I just see people trying to blame something for their (others) mistakes.

So again you link to something that others are doing on purpose which is skewing the results. If people aren't doing the speed limit, then how can you blame deaths or serious injuries on the limit reduction. Again it's people not taking responsibility for their actions that are causing some of these deaths or serious injuries.

nomadking 08-05-2019 13:38
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35994141)
They don’t just play, they often run after things, or step out from behind parked cars, so if the cars are travelling slower, they have a great chance of surviving.

The Council’s findings about the increase in accidents were challenged.

http://roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/stak...-20mph-scheme/
The post you were replying to, specifically said "playing". Similar adverse findings were made in other areas.


There needs to be a distinction of where the collision takes place. Does the vehicle come off the road and onto the pavement? Is it somebody stepping off into the road, right into the path of a vehicle? Is it somebody crossing the road and misjudging the speed of the approaching vehicle? Vehicle jumping red lights at a pedestrian crossing? It is important to identify which scenario in order to establish where a reduction in speed limit would have any effect.

Mythica 08-05-2019 13:56
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35994143)
The post you were replying to, specifically said "playing". Similar adverse findings were made in other areas.


There needs to be a distinction of where the collision takes place. Does the vehicle come off the road and onto the pavement? Is it somebody stepping off into the road, right into the path of a vehicle? Is it somebody crossing the road and misjudging the speed of the approaching vehicle? Vehicle jumping red lights at a pedestrian crossing? It is important to identify which scenario in order to establish where a reduction in speed limit would have any effect.
That's all true. What wont happen though is a reduction of speed limit causing more deaths. You are slowing people down, not speeding them up.

Hugh 08-05-2019 14:06
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35994143)
The post you were replying to, specifically said "playing". Similar adverse findings were made in other areas.


There needs to be a distinction of where the collision takes place. Does the vehicle come off the road and onto the pavement? Is it somebody stepping off into the road, right into the path of a vehicle? Is it somebody crossing the road and misjudging the speed of the approaching vehicle? Vehicle jumping red lights at a pedestrian crossing? It is important to identify which scenario in order to establish where a reduction in speed limit would have any effect.
Who gives a toss? If they hit a child at 30mph, there is a five times greater chance of a fatality than if they hit it at 20mph.

All your casuistry, quibbling, and Gish-galloping doesn’t change those basic facts.

Carth 08-05-2019 14:42
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
Maybe if Councils stopped selling off every bit of grass they own, kids would have somewhere safer to play instead of a road :shrug:

Taf 08-05-2019 14:49
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35994146)
Maybe if Councils stopped selling off every bit of grass they own, kids would have somewhere safer to play instead of a road :shrug:
:tu:

But, around here at least, I hardly ever see kids out playing. But what I do see are kids riding bicycles with no respect to the law, the highway code, their own safety, or the safety of others. Then they get hold of motorbikes and cars and act the same way!

denphone 08-05-2019 15:27
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35994146)
Maybe if Councils stopped selling off every bit of grass they own, kids would have somewhere safer to play instead of a road :shrug:
+1

papa smurf 08-05-2019 15:35
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35994146)
Maybe if Councils stopped selling off every bit of grass they own, kids would have somewhere safer to play instead of a road :shrug:
There's a park around the corner but the kids won't go there

Mr_love_monkey 08-05-2019 15:54
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
1 Attachment(s)
j/k :)

Maggy 08-05-2019 17:38
Re: 20mph in Wales.
 
I have no issues with a 20 MPH limit around schools and by play areas myself. However I do get pissed off by anyone who drives up my road over 30..

The real issue is however who the hell is going to police a generalised 20 MPH? Resources are already squeezed for the police and local councils.


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