Cable Forum - Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

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Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35103329)

The ability to restrain the child without the fear of being charged with assault, I would have thought.....

But that's not "discipline."

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian (Post 35103292)

Can someone tell me which human right is being infringed if a teacher restrains a pupil who is kicking the crap out of another pupil?

Yes, the human right of the kid who is being kicked not to be.
:)

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35103386)

But that's not "discipline."

So you explain to me what discipline is?

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:02 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35103379)

My concern is how are they going to, "clarify and shrink that." The two dangers are that they will throw the baby out with the bath water (not an uncommon trait with this particular Secretary of State), or they will do nothing but waste time, effort and money, achieving little more than firing cheap shots at schools, previous govermnents and teachers.

---------- Post added at 18:02 ---------- Previous post was at 17:58 ----------

So, what did you mean by physical discipline?

I am not against it, I just am against the knee-jerk rhetoric playing to the readers of the Daily Heil that every school in the country is going to hell in a handbasket.

How dare you.I have my own mind on this and I never read the DM...perhaps you have forgotten I'm a secondary school teacher with 36 years of experience and I know full well what the true state of affairs are in schools up and down the country..And you know full well what I meant by physical discipline or restraint.

It's people like you who have ruined education and the status of teachers and severely affected the ability of children to learn in a quiet and calm atmosphere because the teacher is in charge by taking away the few ways that we ever had of maintaining control. It takes a very long time to be effective when you have a riot on your hands..Detention has no effect what ever on the disruptive(they don't attend and just go AWOL) and suspension merely deprives a child of an education without teaching them any self control..

And don't give me any squit about how a teacher should be able to maintain discipline by talking to children in a calm and logical matter.It works for the majority but the small number of disruptive children won't ever respond to that because they haven't been trained by their parents to do so.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35103433)

So you explain to me what discipline is?

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:02 ----------

How dare you.I have my own mind on this and I never read the DM...perhaps you have forgotten I'm a secondary school teacher with 36 years of experience and I know full well what the true state of affairs are in schools up and down the country..And you know full well what I meant by physical discipline or restraint.

It's people like you who have ruined education and the status of teachers and severely affected the ability of children to learn in a quiet and calm atmosphere because the teacher is in charge by taking away the few ways that we ever had of maintaining control. It takes a very long time to be effective when you have a riot on your hands..Detention has no effect what eve on the disruptive(they don't attend and just go AWOL) and suspension merely deprives a child of an education without teaching them any self control..

And don't give me any squit about how a teacher should be able to maintain discipline by talking to children in a calm and logical matter.It works for the majority but the small number of disruptive children won't ever respond to that because they haven't bean trained by their parents to do so.

I agree, too much touchy touchy feely feely (but not literally, that is a no no :) )

The kids get no discipline at home, either because parents don't want to take responsibility, don't know how, or lately because if they do, some doo (yes, i know do is "do", different type of "doo") gooder will quote the child's human rights to never be disciplined.

Impossible task for teachers, but they need something, else, other children's education suffers

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35103375)

Typical Flyboy reaction.In fact I expected it.

Yep.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35103433)

So you explain to me what discipline is?

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:02 ----------

How dare you.I have my own mind on this and I never read the DM...perhaps you have forgotten I'm a secondary school teacher with 36 years of experience and I know full well what the true state of affairs are in schools up and down the country..And you know full well what I meant by physical discipline or restraint.

It's people like you who have ruined education and the status of teachers and severely affected the ability of children to learn in a quiet and calm atmosphere because the teacher is in charge by taking away the few ways that we ever had of maintaining control. It takes a very long time to be effective when you have a riot on your hands..Detention has no effect what ever on the disruptive(they don't attend and just go AWOL) and suspension merely deprives a child of an education without teaching them any self control..

And don't give me any squit about how a teacher should be able to maintain discipline by talking to children in a calm and logical matter.It works for the majority but the small number of disruptive children won't ever respond to that because they haven't been trained by their parents to do so.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35103433)

So you explain to me what discipline is?

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:02 ----------

How dare you.I have my own mind on this and I never read the DM...perhaps you have forgotten I'm a secondary school teacher with 36 years of experience and I know full well what the true state of affairs are in schools up and down the country..And you know full well what I meant by physical discipline or restraint.

It's people like you who have ruined education and the status of teachers and severely affected the ability of children to learn in a quiet and calm atmosphere because the teacher is in charge by taking away the few ways that we ever had of maintaining control. It takes a very long time to be effective when you have a riot on your hands..Detention has no effect what ever on the disruptive(they don't attend and just go AWOL) and suspension merely deprives a child of an education without teaching them any self control..

And don't give me any squit about how a teacher should be able to maintain discipline by talking to children in a calm and logical matter.It works for the majority but the small number of disruptive children won't ever respond to that because they haven't been trained by their parents to do so.

Well said :clap:

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35103433)

So you explain to me what discipline is?

Discipline is a method of control using a mode of punishment as an incentive. The statement by Gove has very little to do with punishment.

Quote:

I have not directed any post towards you relating to the Daily Heil. If you have misunderstood any of my remarks about that publication, then I apologise.

Quote:

And you know full well what I meant by physical discipline or restraint.

No, otherwise I would have not asked the question. As I have mentioned earlier, the definition of discipline is about control, incentivised by punishment on non-compliance. That punishment can range from sanctions and prohibitions, to physical punishment. Perhaps you would like to be clear on what you consider physical discipline to mean.

Quote:

It's people like you who have ruined education and the status of teachers and severely affected the ability of children to learn in a quiet and calm atmosphere because the teacher is in charge by taking away the few ways that we ever had of maintaining control. It takes a very long time to be effective when you have a riot on your hands..Detention has no effect what ever on the disruptive(they don't attend and just go AWOL) and suspension merely deprives a child of an education without teaching them any self control..

People like me? What have I proposed that is done in schools that would hold me up as ruining education and the status of teachers? All I have done is tried to dispel the myths what too many people believe occur in every school in the country. There are no laws banning teachers from restraining children if they are a danger to themselves or others. There are no laws banning teachers consoling children if they are upset. I have not mentioned anything about child protection, nor have I written anything about classroom discipline. I have always supported teachers who have had to use reasonable force to remove disruptive children from classrooms. There are, however, lines that should not be crossed, but that is a subject for a different thread.

In any thread on these boards, which criticises teachers (and there have been many), I have always supported and promoted their perspective. Perhaps you have forgotten that I am actually a qualified SSA with, although fewer years service than you and part-time, about five years practical classroom experience, (although most of those years have been spent in a primary school), I have had limited experience, through training placements etc., in secondary schools. The work I do can and has been on many occasions, very challenging. To the extent where I have had to restrain or remove children in several instances. The first school I worked in was on a very rough estate. About fifty per cent of the children there were on statements and another twenty per cent on school action plus. There was an EBD unit on site and as it only had fifteen permanent places, it was constantly full, to the extent where the rest of those with EBD issues, were left to their own devices and the teachers were at their mercies.

Quote:

And don't give me any squit about how a teacher should be able to maintain discipline by talking to children in a calm and logical matter.It works for the majority but the small number of disruptive children won't ever respond to that because they haven't been trained by their parents to do so.

I have not discussed classroom discipline on this thread, so I really don't understand why you are referring to it here. This thread is about Gove's rather strange intentions to create something which already exists. It has appeared as though he is just using the subject as a smoke screen, to avoid addressing more important issues, such as school closures, building programme cancellations and budget cuts.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35103662)

Discipline is a method of control using a mode of punishment as an incentive. The statement by Gove has very little to do with punishment.

What rubbish!Of course punishment and restraint go hand in hand along with rewards

I have not directed any post towards you relating to the Daily Heil. If you have misunderstood any of my remarks about that publication, then I apologise.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/35103379-post14.html

your own post.

No, otherwise I would have not asked the question. As I have mentioned earlier, the definition of discipline is about control, incentivised by punishment on non-compliance. That punishment can range from sanctions and prohibitions, to physical punishment. Perhaps you would like to be clear on what you consider physical discipline to mean.

Everyone has already told you and Gove already put it as succinctly as anyone can.You are just using your usual method of pretending not to understand because it doesn't fit your own particular ideology.Plus What punishments are available to teachers that work.I already pointed out that which is available don't work

People like me? What have I proposed that is done in schools that would hold me up as ruining education and the status of teachers? All I have done is tried to dispel the myths what too many people believe occur in every school in the country. There are no laws banning teachers from restraining children if they are a danger to themselves or others. There are no laws banning teachers consoling children if they are upset. I have not mentioned anything about child protection, nor have I written anything about classroom discipline. I have always supported teachers who have had to use reasonable force to remove disruptive children from classrooms. There are, however, lines that should not be crossed, but that is a subject for a different thread.

Now you understand about restraining children physically..:rolleyes:

Besides which you have completely missed the point AGAIN.It's about making such rulings much ,much clearer to ALL including pupils and parents and Head teachers and simplfying what is allowed and what is not allowed

In any thread on these boards, which criticises teachers (and there have been many), I have always supported and promoted their perspective. Perhaps you have forgotten that I am actually a qualified SSA with, although fewer years service than you and part-time, about five years practical classroom experience, (although most of those years have been spent in a primary school), I have had limited experience, through training placements etc., in secondary schools. The work I do can and has been on many occasions, very challenging. To the extent where I have had to restrain or remove children in several instances. The first school I worked in was on a very rough estate. About fifty per cent of the children there were on statements and another twenty per cent on school action plus. There was an EBD unit on site and as it only had fifteen permanent places, it was constantly full, to the extent where the rest of those with EBD issues, were left to their own devices and the teachers were at their mercies.

Then why are you so nit picky about this issue if you truly understand what it is all about.To be honest if you are truly what you say you are you wouldn't be picking holes in the statement made by Gove or in my comments because you would just KNOW how teachers have been cowed and placed in a situation where the minority of badly behaved children rule the roost and staff are left unsupported and believing that they cannot restrain children because they are ordered by the head teacher not to physically handle pupils. Seems to me you just haven't read or understood the article.

I have not discussed classroom discipline on this thread, so I really don't understand why you are referring to it here. This thread is about Gove's rather strange intentions to create something which already exists. It has appeared as though he is just using the subject as a smoke screen, to avoid addressing more important issues, such as school closures, building programme cancellations and budget cuts.

And fortunately for you I am unable to give vent to what I truly think of this last paragraph and of your so called intelligence plus again you are using Labour ideology as a counter because this decision comes from a Tory government.No doubt if Labour had issued the statement you would be applauding. .I too am concerned about some of the decisions of Gove on education(primarily the con job on Academy schools) but that is for another thread.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

I am not a teacher nor have i ever given any sort of lesson in a school classroom but i know a few teachers and have two i class as very good friends and they all say the same thing and have done for a while now that the system is too heavily in favour of the child and not the teacher. I also get to see on a daily basis how things are as i live directly opposite a major secondary school and see the abuse that is thrown at teachers once the little darlings are out of the gate and off school property. I have also seen teachers hold back when fights start in the playground or near the gate because despite what some might say and think the line isn't that clear for teachers. While most of those i know are good decent people with a passion for the job they are frustrated and downhearted at how the system has changed in the last few years. All of this and i do not live in some rough inner city area so god only knows how bad it can be in those schools.

I am a tory by nature but even i don't overly trust them this time round on a raft of issues but there are problems that have to be sorted and if they can sort only some of them they will have done something. We cannot keep having it both ways you don't get to keep taking away the methods parents have for enforcing discipline on their kids and then moan when parents are not able to exert sufficient control. On that point i am a case in point my parents did and tried everything they could with me and i still went to school daily and took great pleasure in exacting as much havoc as i could every class i went too. It isn't always about the parent sometimes it is just a stubborn kid with a bad attitude that sadly only life and growing up can sort out.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11476802

Quote:

Head teachers in England will be able to discipline pupils "any time, any place, anywhere", says Education Secretary Michael Gove.
Addressing the Conservative party conference, Mr Gove promised tougher powers for head teachers.
They will now be able to punish pupils in public places, such as in shopping centres, said Mr Gove.

Even better news.

Quote:

In his party conference speech, Mr Gove promised to strengthen the hand of head teachers by allowing them to punish misbehaving pupils going to and from school.

I hope they can deliver on these promises..:erm:

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

It was impressed on all of us at my secondary school that when we were in the uniform we were subject to the school's disciplinary policies. To or from school and during lunch break for those permitted to leave the school premises we were expected to behave in the same manner.

I'm surprised disheartened that this is even an issue that needs discussion.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 35103379)

My concern is how are they going to, "clarify and shrink that."

I can take care of that.

Rule 1. clause 1.1 sub clause 1.1.1:
If there is an unruly and disruptive little sod in your classroom, which receives no discipline at home and is allowed to run riot and thinks he/she can do the same in your class.

Give them a crack round the back of their head, then invite their parents into school and give them a slap too.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35103304)

Sadly what used to be common sense has been replaced by rigidly inflexible rules and regulations which take no little or no account of reality and an inbalance in favour of the 'rights' of the problem pupil as opposed to the rights of the decent majority who'd just like to get on with their work in peace and quite.

Some very reasonable threads, but, where does the labour, new labour,same old labour come from? the crash was caused by Disenvestment Bankers, mainly Goldman Sachs, didn't know they were in the Labour party, wish you people would think instead of parroting right wing party propaganda, you sound like "the Ood", Dr Who.

Re: Gove to tackle schools' 'no touch' rules

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35103838)

Exactly as in my day. In recent years, moved to a house that the local schoolkids passed on their way from the shops at lunchtime and disposed of food wrappers in our gardens. Local head: "Outside the school premises - not my concern."