Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

Hi,

A couple of thoughts:

I will not be dressing up with a Vendetta mask. I think it is important that we do not give Phorm or their associated PR spunkmonkeys an opportunity to marginalise us. Therefore I will be suited and booted at the meeting.

If you do wish to turn up in a Vendetta mask, the forbidden planet store is about 10 minutes walk from the lecture theatre so you could easily pick one on your way.

Alexander. I am very glad that you will be attending the meeting. I am certain that you will be a much more forceful advocate of the anti-phorm position than I.

On a procedural point I think it is important that we attempt to identify if there are any Phorm ringers in the audience. I am going to give some thought on how this might be achieved

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

OK I will be wearing a suit and no mask :p (other than the one I am required to wear year round so as not to scare young children).

We will be driving to Harrow and catching the tube from there (this should avoid London congestion charge and of course mean we can find parking. It should also save a lot of time driving into central London).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

Alexander, I'm glad you are able to attend. I'm sure you'll be able to give them a good run for their money.

I think a measured, reasoned, professional approach is best as anything else will detract from the issues that need discussing (must be getting old!)

Hopefully, it will be pretty easy to tie these clowns up in knots. Just sorry that I can't get down to "that London" and join in the fun. I will, however, be there in spirit and by any virtual means that can be set up.

Bon chance mon braves.

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

I'd love to get to this event but I'm unable to do so as I'm waiting a bionic knee at the moment. I'll certainly be there in spirit and you all have my full support.

Make all of the people who have campaigned proud with valid arguments, and intellectual debate and give Phorm the resounding message that despite their claims we don't want tailored ads or have our activities online profiled for their profit.

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

Sorry to revive this thread but I'm still confused about what can be gained from a public debate with Phorm. This is a PR exercise for them; convincing them of the error of their ways is impossible and the meeting is therefore already valueless.

The meeting as such is not to address the concerns of users, it is arranged to assuage the nerves of potential investors in the Phorm technology.

Phorm have monitored this forum constantly. They know what to expect; they will have teams of people preparing to counter all possible scenarios. This is a big money venture and they have made a huge comittment. They're not about to allow anyone to take them off course.

Countering Phorm in a public debate is tantamount to attacking the tail not the head. The ISP's are very quiet. Whilst Phorm is taking the knocks, that will suit them.

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

But if there are press there, any awkward questions will get reported - hopefully in the national press.

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

Fair comment. However, 'awkward' questions will be refuted with well-rehearsed responses; the result is likely to be impasse at best. The danger here is not for the technically savvy who will see through the rebuttals, it is of the casual observer being taken in by a slick PR performance.

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

Really? Well that's news to me. As my organisation is the one managing this event I'd hope I would have some idea why it has been convened. And for the record, we're the one's who convened it as part of the PIA process, which was undertaken by Phorm on a voluntary basis.

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

Thank you for the reply. It is interesting that you have responded so quickly to a post made at 1:30am in the small hours.

I am aware that you are managing the event. I assume that you are engaged, and therefore paid, by Phorm to produce the PIA?

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

Hi simon.

and as i said on thursday in the other thread #2809 #2845

given the vast scope of your PIA with an estimated 70% plus of the whole UK internet individuals effected, this local townhall type meeting you propose is nowere near enough to cover anywere near the scope.

a live publicly managed UK housed IRC session (not on Phorm owned/run servers)as pointed out earlyer in the other thread, might be good, and go some way to better fulfil your PIA individuals stakeholder analysis

infact given it involves the interweb ;) this is the only viable and open way.

an adaptable live web poll, in case some new information comes to light and needs adressing live.

so having the ability to ask a live question, click a vote web page, and mark it's result down for public feedback and clarity for all to see, simple and effective.

(remember the Zimbabwean voting... and still waiting for the result; we dont want that kind of happening going on, do we, on this most important issue in the UK online community to date)

as you said yourself here http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...acetoface.html
just hours ago....

Simon Davies
MD, 80/20 Thinking Ltd said:
"After all, this is clearly the most important privacy issue of recent decades."


i agree..., and that being the case, your proposal that you might take private Emails for questions is in no way appropriate for this public PIA

the 70% of the UK individual stakeholders effected are waiting for their chance to contribute to this live Open ISP/Phorm PIA , are you going to deny them this chance given your quote, and easy access to a currently Non Intercepted FAST University net Connection and kit right there in the room.

you have one chance for open and clear realtime transparency ,using the PIA located london universitys campus wireless and realtime streaming video capture equipment, that location gives you the perfect place to do all the basic things i outlined above, if you were to talk to the campus net techs, SO DO IT, and even more if you can.

you must open this up realtime for all partys to contribute and be heard publicly.

BTW, is this a fixed time scale, or do you intend leaving it open ended incase more time is required and wanted to address any live issues ?

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

Thanks Popper. I'll do my best, but I really have to be clear that the PIA isn't a matter of voting, it's a matter of process. Seeking the balance of public opinion is a road to bedlam, and is subordinate to the more arduous task of sorting out the facts. As a privacy activist I never based my actions on whether the majority of the population went along with me (and most don't on such issues as CCTV or expansion of police powers) but I continue regardless to work through process and principle. That approach will be reflected at this meeting.

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

thats an interesting point of view Simon, but it seems against the founding principles of the www.ico.gov.uk and it's PIA documents.

does the ICO or the EU Commisioners office for that matter, consider their official documents subordinate to anything else relating to the UK/EU privacy domain/facts?

does or can a private companys collected facts correlate with the Govt and the peoples effected facts!...

for the late comers to the CF ISP/Phorm threads, the rules that need to be followed for that Privacy Impact Assessment (PIA) are here.
http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...l/1-intro.html

the main reason this meeting is taking place, is for you and your individual stakeholders ICO PIA rules here it seems.
http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...preparing.html

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

Simon

I posted a simple question above: are you being paid by Phorm to produce this PIA? Your answer is relevant to understanding the status of the hosts of Tuesday's meeting.

From the information available, your Company has existed for a little over 3 months (since January this year) and it seems singularly suited to produce a Privacy Impact Assessment for Phorm. In fact, your terms of reference appear to imply that 80/20 Thinking are uniquely skilled for the task.

A further question therefore: what is the validity of the specific Assessment that you are to produce? I am unclear on the conclusions that can be drawn from a document you will produce for a client. Thank you.

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

OK, let me repeat the facts. As Phorm and 80/20 Thinking have both publicly stated, this is a commercial contract. 80/20 is a commercial organisation, even if it is a commercial organisation with a difference (half its profits go to civil liberties campaigners in developing countries).

This document is knows as a "late stage Privacy Impact Assessment". It is "late stage" because the Information Commissioner only launched the PIA framework four months ago, long after Phorm had set its wheels in motion.

The document is process driven. That is, it sets out in fairly clinical terms whether due diligence in privacy has been undertaken, whether the company has followed the correct procedures, whether it meets a number of tests. It is not a legal opinion, nor is it an ethics essay. However what it does offer is a means of knowing what we do and do not know about the system and outlines the questions that this raises.

Some of you have suggested that we should poll people up and down the country. That would be an interesting exercise, but would tell us less than you might imagine. And what if, for example, the results of the poll indicated a majority support for the Phorm scheme? Where would that leave us? You might want to think twice before entering that quagmire. After five years fighting the discredited ID card we're still struggling to poll more than fifty percent in our favour. If we ran a poll through ICM tomorrow, I dare say the results would run that way. And it would, quite rightly not change your view of the ethics of all this. I wouldn't expect it to.

Same applies with legal opinion. What if we went down that road? Let's say we did definitively conclude that the system was in fact lawful if certain notification and consent conditions could be met. Would that change your view on the ethical position? You would argue, as I have done in other arenas many times, that the law must change.

No, my job is simply to assess the facts of the case. You will not like some of our conclusions but you will embrace others. Ours is in many ways the disinfectant of sunshine. That process might seem pointless to some of you, but its value will become evident in time.

---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 ----------

I think I may not have been precise enough with my wording. You cannot poll the opinions of the population until you can communicate precisely what is known. It would be bizarre to ask for opinions in any structured way until the full range of facts can be presented. The key point of the public meeting is to test assertions, ask questions and engage with those who know those facts.

Re: Phorm Public Meeting - Official Thread
 

Maybe you should mention that to BT and Phorm as they did poll their customers who came back with a resounding, "yes please, that sounds like a wonderful idea".