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-   -   Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33627639)

TheNorm 27-01-2008 14:34
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by superbiatch (Post 34477816)
You have to have some give and take, i agree. But why should someone have the right to decide when an elderly person can or can't have a vital operation. ....
In my opinion these decisions should be taken by a committee composed of hospital staff, patients, members of the public, etc. The committee can be told the budget, then decide how many hip operations, fertility treatments, kidney transplants, etc. are performed. This would give more power back to the people (and away from government).

Quote:
Originally Posted by swoop101 (Post 34477834)
...The amount of money wasted by management is totaly unacceptable....
Agreed, but medical staff have very little control over this. In fact, their careers can be jeopardised if they openly disagree with management.

slowcoach 27-01-2008 14:38
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
The last time I went to my GP was when I was 21, 41 years ago! Total waste of time which is why I never bothered going again.
If you are ill, go to bed.
If you are really ill go to the hospital, the GP is going to send you there anyway.

Anonymouse 27-01-2008 16:02
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNorm (Post 34477808)
The NHS isn't a bottomless well of money. Why would you want money spent on treatments that don't make much difference to people?
My mum died in an NHS hospital. She had a stroke initially, and we were told to prepare for the worst. We did. Then she rallied a bit, and I actually had a very coherent conversation with her one day before I had to leave for work; we actually thought she might recover.

But she had a relapse, and we spent most of the next three days at her bedside; she died in her sleep. Had she been sent home by the ghouls who are proposing this draconian measure, my sisters and I might never have had a chance to at least be there with her when she went; one sister would have been at home with her family, and the other sister and I would have been at work.

SO DON'T TELL ME "IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE", RIGHT?!

It can make all the difference, at least to friends and family. If such patients receive treatment, at least they can die without pain and hopefully with a little dignity.

Besides, in 30, 40, 50 years' time (whatever), you will be in their position. Let's see if you still think the same way then.

Ramrod 27-01-2008 17:13
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNorm (Post 34477789)
Makes sense to me. :shrug:
The thing is that the elderly have already paid for the treatment in advance through NI. How whould you feel if you had paid insurance all your life and then had the goalposts moved when you needed the very thing you had been paying towards?

TheNorm 27-01-2008 20:49
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymouse (Post 34478047)
My mum died in an NHS hospital. ...
Clearly in this case the treatment made a great deal of difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34478103)
The thing is that the elderly have already paid for the treatment in advance through NI. How whould you feel if you had paid insurance all your life and then had the goalposts moved when you needed the very thing you had been paying towards?
I don't think it works this way. The money you and I are paying now goes to treating people now.

RizzyKing 28-01-2008 02:10
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Once you start down this road where do you stop??. I mean how long before they withhold treatment for incurables i mean whats the point of spending money on conditions that can't be cured. If these doctors don't want to treat people then sod off out of the NHS but as long as you have your snout in the trough you do the job which means treating everyone irrespective.

TheNorm 28-01-2008 08:43
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34478374)
Once you start down this road where do you stop??. ...
The NHS already applies rationing of health care - this is not new. As far as I can tell, some doctors want this rationing to be more explicit.

RizzyKing 28-01-2008 11:19
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Rationing and refusal of treatment are two different things.

zing_deleted 28-01-2008 11:32
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNorm (Post 34478234)
Clearly in this case the treatment made a great deal of difference.



I don't think it works this way. The money you and I are paying now goes to treating people now.
wonder what your opinion will be when your old and grey with dodgy hips and whatever else. Wonder if you will say its ok do not treat me im gonna die soon anyway

Anonymouse 28-01-2008 15:37
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNorm (Post 34478234)
Clearly in this case the treatment made a great deal of difference.

My original reply to this was a rather angry one, but as you've given me a rep (which I really should have noticed and read beforehand) I've edited - that is to say, entirely deleted - my original reply. Oops, and thanks.

I don't know if it made any difference to Mum; I hope it did. Hearing is the last sense to go, so I hope that at some deep level of which medical science knows nothing but is willing to concede exists, she knew we were there.

Actually, we think she played a sort of joke on us. To explain: we'd just decided that two of us were going to go home for a few hours while the other two stayed, then swap over. But just as we decided this, she slipped away. At the wake, one of my sisters said it was as if she'd thought to herself: 'Oh no, you don't! You're not going anywhere!' It would, I assure you, have been just like her. She had a good sense of humour...oddly enough for someone her age (72), she quite liked Bottom - especially whenever Eddie and Richie started laying into each other. Then again, so did I.

From Hole:

(in which Eddie and Richie have prayed for salvation, being trapped as they are on top of a 350-foot-high ferris wheel due to be demolished in a few hours; they've just been rescued by a huge ghostly white, presumably divine hand ...)

Eddie: Richie...although we, and indeed the BBC, respect people's right to believe in whatever they wish...(he turns to the camera)...and because we don't want to get in the s*** on this one...we don't actually believe in God, do we?

Richie: No...

(Brief pause)

Both: S***!

(The hand disappears, of course)

PeteTheMusicGuy 28-01-2008 16:07
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
IMO if you have been paying NI for most of your life you should be getting treatment end of.

Ramrod 28-01-2008 16:49
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNorm (Post 34478234)



I don't think it works this way. The money you and I are paying now goes to treating people now.
Then why is it called National Insurance?
These are the people who were promised the whole 'cradle to grave' thing if they bought into it.....

TheNorm 28-01-2008 17:01
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 34478672)
Then why is it called National Insurance?
These are the people who were promised the whole 'cradle to grave' thing if they bought into it.....
Actually, NI doesn't seem to have much to do with the NHS:

Quote:
Benefits that depend on NIC contributions

Your entitlement to the following benefits and/or the amount you can get will depend on your (or in some cases your spouse or civil partner's) NIC contributions:
  • Contribution based Jobseeker's Allowance (Class 1 NICs only)
  • Incapacity Benefit (if you can't work for long periods due to illness or injury)
  • State Pension
  • additional State Pension (Class 1 NICs only)
  • Widowed Parents' Allowance
  • Bereavement Allowance
  • Bereavement Payment
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTax...Tax/DG_4015904

Xaccers 28-01-2008 18:50
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymouse (Post 34478047)
My mum died in an NHS hospital. She had a stroke initially, and we were told to prepare for the worst. We did. Then she rallied a bit, and I actually had a very coherent conversation with her one day before I had to leave for work; we actually thought she might recover.

But she had a relapse, and we spent most of the next three days at her bedside; she died in her sleep. Had she been sent home by the ghouls who are proposing this draconian measure, my sisters and I might never have had a chance to at least be there with her when she went; one sister would have been at home with her family, and the other sister and I would have been at work.

SO DON'T TELL ME "IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE", RIGHT?!

It can make all the difference, at least to friends and family. If such patients receive treatment, at least they can die without pain and hopefully with a little dignity.

Besides, in 30, 40, 50 years' time (whatever), you will be in their position. Let's see if you still think the same way then.
Just out of interest, why wouldn't you all be at your mother's bedside in her own home?
What was it about the hospital which stopped your sister being with her familiy, and you and your other sister from going to work that your mother being at home wouldn't have stopped?

RizzyKing 28-01-2008 20:48
Re: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
 
Maybe the same situation i had once xaccers in the morning when my dying relative was at home my boss wouldn't give me time off. By the afternoon when the doctor had come and said they really needed to be admitted to hospital i could have off all the time i needed. Stupid i know but i doubt mine was the only idiot employer in the country.


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