Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Excellent post.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

No one ever learns good from good. It never works.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I'm citing examples of how children that don't have to endure domineering teachers slapping them about will still manage to grow up to be well adjusted human beings, indicating that the problem might NOT be with the parents or teachers not inflicting physical pain but actually with a low standard of parenting.

Does your school not have remedial classes set up to take these students away from the less disruptive members of the class? I know ours did.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Thats a nice idea but I doubt the budget will cover it. My mother in law is a primary school teacher and she often sits at home struggling with her budget !

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I might have to agree with you Jerrek

my dad used to use a thin electric lead to beat me.

I also went to a 'boarding school' where the use of the cane was allowed - however it was not about pain - my dad wanted to hurt me - at school it was more like a ritual - I learnt more at school :shrug:

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

These are not politically correct atm :rolleyes: all children must be "included" in normal classes so they don't feel "different".

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I didn't know that, I know our school was grossly underfunded, we didn't only have remedial classes but we also had a whole remedial "school" where the most disruptive were sent along with the kids that had learning difficulties, obviously they were split into different classes but it certainly worked for us.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Teachers don't actually want to slap children around or dominate them.We just want to do our job and teach them with as little disruption as possible.

As for your second point well these days the answer is that we have an all inclusive education system as many 'special' schools have closed so the burdens on the special needs staff have become astronomical. We can find ourselves dealing with Downs Syndrome children as well as any others with specialised learning difficulties.We will also have to start including the superbright children in the Special Needs funding in the near future.So there is no talk of removing children away to a special unit especially as one SNA may be in a classroom dealing with as many as 6 special needs students..WE just don't have enough staff to do so.Also funding is tight and many children are turned away from being given help.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

That counts out a certain primary teacher of mine many years ago that was fond of throwing students out of windows :D

As I said, I had no idea about this, I think it's an absolute bloody disgrace, I know certain local schools that have spent upwards of £100,00 0 this year updating IT equipment that was REALLY not needed.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

You'll probably find that the £100,00 0 was allocated to IT by the LEA/Gov and so much as the teachers would like to spend it on more needed resourses, they'd have no way of doing it.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

a lot of 'special' schools have been shut down - what was it "care in the community" - I hope you were on the ground floor, Bifta :)

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

We were on the ground floor, but this man was a complete header. As nutty as a fruitcake, we laugh about it now but someone could have got seriously hurt.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

The thing is that in this political climate, we don't have remedial schools. They simply aren't PC. There is a policy of inclusion that means the entire class suffers if it is 'blessed' with disruptive (sorry, 'challenging') pupils. It's a scandal! :afire:

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

You have to respect every succesive UK government's complete inability to allocate funds where they're most needed, but that's for another thread.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Indeed. They are all a bunch of fu*kwhits :rolleyes:

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I feel for the teachers - When the ofstead comes round I stay well clear of the mother in law :)

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Sorry I need to post just once more.

Yes some children are really good but these same children still suffer at the hands of the disruptive children. The schools in areaâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s that is poor with large numbers ethnic minorities, younger parents, one parent families. These schools will have more children with behavior problems.



This is a larger part of todays society unfortunately. The children are not spoken to and watch TV most of the time.
These parents are either too young themselves, have more than 5 children, was never given the chance themselves, parents in trouble with the police, Traveller children, refugees, Not all aprents come from good areas my school has children from all those. We also have



Todays children with behavior problems are more disrubtive show no respect and spoil the lessons for others. The children who are normally good do laugh at these children which encourages them to play up more.

I have worked at this school for 4 years and noticed the problem is growing bigger.... In march we are being ofsteded and we have a short list of children we would like suspended to ease the problem.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

It seems a shame that a few children can spoil the education of an entire class !

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Am I right in thinking that grammer schools enabled the seperation of the brightest kids from the rest?

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

They used to segment yes. There was Alpha, Beta and gamma in my school. Alpha had the dim witts (me) and gamma had the smart kids.

It took me over 6 months to move to gamma !

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I would have loved to have been split away from the disruptive or not so bright kids.

At boarding school we had to do a test at the end of each year to progress, anyone who failed got the extra help they needed so they moved up a bit later.
Of course they had a heck of a lot more money to spend, and much smaller class sizes (about 20 per class), but the whole school atmosphere was that of wanting to learn, totally different to the crap state schools I've been to.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Yup, thats why labour are trying to close grammar schools here in Kent. Grammars don't fit the socialist policy of 'everyone must be dragged down to the same level' :rolleyes:

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

What!? Never?
I can understand the notion of learning from your mistakes along life's voyage of discovery but saying that people can only learn good from bad is a rather limited view.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

One of the problems even with this "last resort" smacking idea is that the child soon learns the highest level of general naughtiness to which they can go to which is safely under the smacking threshold but still naughty enough to ruin your day.
I think teaching better behaviour through other means pays off across all levels of naughtiness and results in less general bedlam.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Well, can you give me an example?

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

You are joking right?

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

But the principle is the same: do what someone else says or you get hurt.

A little thing called *consent*...

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I can agree with all of this except for point 8:

This is, IMO, grossly over-generalised and totally fails to understand the mindset of those who engage in BDSM.

I won't go into a long treatise here, but, trust me, I *do* know what I'm talking about!! :naughty:

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

You know, I didn't read the posting name on this until after I'd read the message.

Somehow I was totally unsurprised...!!! :(

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Here is a useful link peeps....
http://www.early-education.org.uk/1leaflet16.htm
If, after reading and applying all that, any parent *still* feels that smacking their child is a good idea then further expert help is probably needed for the parent and/or child.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Yes, I went to Bristol Grammar (NB you'd get into *serious* trouble for spelling it -er!!! :) ) and after the first year pupils were "streamed" so you'd have classes 4:1, 4:2... 4:5 where 1 was the "smartest" kids and 5 had the "least smart" ones.

Of course this did mean that your subsequent schooling was decided on the basis of how you did in your first year at secondary school.

(Oh, I was in the x.3 classes, if anyone's interested, but that's because I was smart enough to realise that being too smart was just hard work! :D )

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

A *CHRISTIAN* is asking this question?!?! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

having a nephew with this so called adhd or whatever it is called , the poor **** is in an awful position , i think he is 9 years old now and big for it as well , he has had problems with his hearing and speech , so what happens , the other kids take the p!ss out of him and what does he do , give em a good slap , which results in him being in trouble , he is not nasty he just cant control himself , leaving him in that school is going to end in tears imo , yet the mother and her parents and my wife's parents dont want to see him in some sort of special needs school , for me a lot of the problem is that the parents were never married and are now seperated , the poor little sod doesnt know whether he is coming or going as regards parents , its gotten to the point now where he is calling the grandads dads , weird , i really fear for him when he goes into secondary school , i reckon it will seriously end in tears , and yes i still say there should be the cane / slipper or whatever , sorry if my post is a bit rambling :(

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

that is true.

i dont think we should allow it, as much as i would love for it to be introduced in to the education system at a young age, i dont think it would be wise to even think about utilizing a smokescreen to justify it, i believe the system would be abused by parents/teachers, there would have to be legislation to accurately term what 'reasonable force is' not to mention the legal threats etc........

in this society, the only people who will change the childs habitual lifestyle for being disruptive, unruely, will be the parents, they are responsible.

example, im my case i have been tought to respect elders (older people) and be polite and respect them.

i have always done this.

through this, i have learnt to respect everyone, never be a nuiscence, disrupt people, respect there wishes, and one of the most important things, HELP people.

looking at it, i have always communicated with people using those ethics in a one on one situation (offline infront of real people ) however angry or annoyed i maybe.......

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

You're probably right, the link from that article is here

http://www.nospank.net/sexdngrs.htm

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Now you are going from one extreme to another. The cane at schools used to be given on the palms of hands at my school.

As school worker there are parts of the body that none of us wish to invade. If a child get injured in those areas we do ask them to go and check themselves in the toilets and only check ourselvesif the child comes back saying it is bleeding. This is only done then by the Teacher who is Health and Safety and first aider with us present. On account would a child be smacked on the buttocks in school...

If that ever happens its either another child doing in the playground which we intervine and report the incident or its parents at home. I have never needed to smack in these areas infact I have only needed to smack my son once on his leg for kicking repeatedly at his sister while she was on the floor. I was worried he was becoming ADHD and asked for him to be checked. The one slap stopped him kicking her and seemed to change his behavior the results was he didn't have the disorder. So on slap sorted teh problem that could have been dangerous if left.

Each child is different and some are a lot worse than others some have been beaten and no matter how much they was caned they wouldn't responed others have been shouteed at so much by their parents they do not responed to being shouted at. Special treats do not always work as some feel its being paid to improve and don't want to change it makes them feel big to have the lessons in the class disrupted making others in their class miss important information.

The latest punishment in schools I do disagree with as it punishes those who have done nothing wrong. The whole class misses playtime and school trips for a few children who don't care. I really do feel sad for the good ones and can see there point of view why should they be good when they are going to get punished for the few that miss behave.

I know there will always be those for and those against just as there will be those who work in schools and see the unfair treatment used to try and get these children to behave and conform to rules.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I've been waiting for someone to suggest putting all the disruptive students in one class.Been there,done that.If they ever do that again I'm leaving.

It's hell on whoever has to take them and for cover teachers.It always seemed that on the days staff had the 'sin bin' classes they would be errrr....ill and so some poor supply teacher(me) would have to take them.Bluddy horrendous.
Putting all the school malcontents,hardmen,tarty girls,thieves,madmen and vandals in one room was a crazy idea.


Incog.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

That is just plain wrong, wrong, wrong. Who ever dreamed that up should be punished themselves.

If that ever happened to my kids at school then I would create hell. :mad:

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I agree - that is the kind of thing that creates bullying...

The kids will turn on the one that did it and pick on him !

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

This has been happening in schools for more than a year now. I did complain when my two came home saying it was no use being good in school as they will only get punished with the naughty ones. the headteacher said they were trying the governments method of peer pressure to make these children conform. It would never work as the ones they were trying to conform are the very children who enjoy watching others suffering for nothing....

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Being one of the older members here I was brought up in a very different world to children of today. My father died when I was three years old so I only had my mother and this probably affected my behaviour until school age and corporal punishment was never needed. Once at junior school you started to learn from other children and often copied them so that you were in the "in" crowd and not a "loner". At my junior school the only person allowed to give corporal punishment was the headmaster and I had the cane from him on a couple of occasions (totally justified) and learnt from that experience. If I got the cane I was in even more trouble when I got home and my stepfather found out. Off would come his belt and I would get another dose of punishment.

At Grammar school only the head and deputy head could give the cane but all teachers could give you the slipper. I had my fair share of both but I did learn from my mistakes..

Children in my day did learn from being punished in this way at school and there were far fewer problems with children out of school than you get today. The local "bobby" was a big influence on children giving them a little clip round the ears if he caught them misbehaving and if he considered it really bad behaviour he would then march you home and you would get another dose from your parents.

Today, children know what they can get away with and exploit this to the limit. There are areas in the neighbourhood that I grew up in that were never a problem when I was a child but are very problematic now. Gangs of youths congregate at various spots and you walk near them at your peril. Some people never go out in the evening for fear of the gangs that congregate.

Spanking or the cane never did me any lasting harm and I am sure that it was beneficial to me. My two daughters got the occasional clip and they both say that it has made them a better person.

In my opinion, corporal punishment is a valid tool in bringing up children but it must be used in the correct circumstances and never in anger.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

i wonder if any of this has anything to do with the police not being able to give ' clips round the ear ' for minor misdemeanors , i for one know if a bobbie saw me do summat wrong i would be in for a damned sight worse time when he told me dad :eek: :eek: :eek:

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Yes ianathuth its the never in anger some parents having the children around them has them angry. They bounce of each other and cause angry scenes. The children also respond in anger at an age they don't know how or understand the feelings they are displying. That is why they have no knowledge on how to control their angry feeling but do things in anger and sometimes they do feel sorry afterwards some children for whatever reasons never feel sorry at all.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I am sure that this is the case. When I was a child the people who would dole out punishment would in the main be your parents and older relatives, teachers and the local "bobby". You might get the occasional clip round the ear from others that caught you misbehaving such as neighbours who caught you nicking apples from their tree. You learnt who you had to respect and what behaviour was right or wrong.

Back in "the good old days" though the local police were either on foot or on their bikes, rarely ever in a police car and tended to know most people in their beat area. Nowadays they are nearly always in a police car except in town centres.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

But don't you generally get that by default? Surely most of these types are the ones that have the worst grades so, after class streaming, they'd all end up at the bottom of the pile together anyway.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Class streaming? ROTFPMSL Thats not allowed these days, it's not PC. Everyone is 'included' now, no matter the effect on the other kids:rolleyes:

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Its the teachers I feel sorry for !!! A was walking past a local school the other week and the kids were coming out and getting onto the bus. They were all screaming and shouting. There was a female teacher telling them to calm down and not push - She was completely ignored.

When I was at school if the teacher said something we would all stop and listen !!!

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

So why did my nephew come to me the other week and say, "I've been moved up into the top group in maths" ?
:confused:

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Not in high schools they do stream the classes in to top middle and bottom groups they also have special needs groups that are taught in a part of the school away from the others. Some high schools also have the refferal unit where the disruptive ones from any group gets sent for punishment, these children are not allowed to mix with the rest of the school.

School isn't ideal and the latest timed everything isn't helping those who can be a little slow to pick up and retain information. Todays school is all timed 10 mins talk 10 mins reading or explaining and 20 mins writing. Most children don't pay atention when they are on the carpet time ( 20 mins ) so then they are asking what they are supposed to do. When we was at school you wasn't made to sit around on the floor listening for 20 mins then go back to your desk to work. You was't allowed to sit in groups where others could distract you. Todays educations has loads of areas where a disruptive child can mess around in the old method tables all in a row facing the teacher was 100% better. IMPO anyway The full hour working in your books after a few mins introduction then the teacher helping those who still don't understand is better than all sitting for 20 mins and the teacher trying to re-explain to the others in hte 20 mins they should be writing. hence not a lot of writing is going on by some.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

No not always.Some students just have problems in certain subjects like languages(seems crazy to me teaching a child who is barely literate in english another language)or maths and can cope elsewhere.Also I'm not talking about poorer ability students,I'm talking about disruptive ones.Not every disruptive child is the traditional two planks variety.Some are very bright.I believe I pointed out that the superbright(genius) children will be eventually included under the Special Needs umberella.These children have the greatest ability to be disruptive because they apply intelligence and logic to their methods of misbehaviour-a very dangerous element.

No,sin bins just don't work.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I can well understand that too.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

If that was the case, then society would have gone from a more violent people to less violent people as parents moved away from spanking.
So how does it explain the increase in violent crimes?
From my experience, as a child, being with children, and being with parents shows that statement to not be the case.

For instance, one couple I know are teachers at a school for disruptive teenagers, they are able to use restraining forces to subdue any aggressive pupils. It works, the kids learn that they are not able to get away with being disruptive and eventually give up.
However, at home, they've never used more than reasoning with their children, as such, their children know that they can get away with anything as all that their parents will do is say "now, I don't think that's very good of you", kid thinks "ooo big deal, I want to do it, you're not stopping me, so I'm going to do what I like"
When kids need to learn what is right and wrong, they're too young to understand reasoning, but they are able to understand that if they do something and it hurts them, then they won't do it again.
Associating this with the word "no" means that as the child develops, it associates being told no with the slap, and realises that if it responds to the no, it won't get a slap.
The problem comes when the child reaches about 6-7 when they develope a stronger sense of themselves, and will try and push the no limit to see if it is still in effect. If the parent doesn't re-affirm this limit, then the work is undone and the child then learns that the parent no longer has power. Such a situation is like when you see a parent saing "I'm going to count to 3, 1, 2, 2 and a bit" and then not following through with the punishment.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I have no idea. Maby it's a progresssive school (which would be nice) or maby it's a group within the class.
*edit* just read Kittys post. I ws talking B*llocks again it seems :D

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Maths, science and english were split into levels when I was at school.
The other subjects were a total mix, and as has been said, even bright kids can be distruptive

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Which ever way you like it, the left wingers have won on this.
Not only are we not allowed to smack our own children, wqe are not allowed to defend ourselves. If I was attacked by a gang of kids threatening me, I am Damned sure I give at least one of them a few injuries.

However this debate is about punichment not Injuring. I went to senior school not long after the slipper etc had been fully banned (I started in 1987). We did have a teacher that carried on giving the slipper in some circumstances and was warned several times about it. He then went on to poking you with his finger, and I mean this guy must have had a steel rod in his figer cos when he was finnished you were covered in Bruises. I dont agree with this kind of thing as when it happened to me I just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and was not involved in the incident, yet I was treat the same. So I opened my mouth and got worse, that is until I created such a scene My parents were called. The headmaster had to drag my father of this teacher, my arm was purple and very swollen, severe bruising was diagnosed.

However if Children have been up to no good I see no reason why a small form of none injury causing slaps shouldnt be used. And I am looking forward to the day when these little ****s get a slap or more of the coppers and thier parents.

To the parents that dont believe in smacking:-

Shouting tarquin stop it darling is not going to work slap the little *******, he'll soon stop it.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

All secondary students are streamed these days.With league tables and SATS tests you are not going to get any other way of dealing with the differing abilities.So much for comprehensive education.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

We had that with a German class.
The books had a picture of a sausage with legs/face/arms, and someone had turned it into a penis.
We were all given detention unless the person who did it owned up.
I pointed out that the books are left out on the side and the door unlocked so anyone could have come in and done it. I was told it was terrible that I was trying to put the blame on someone else!

Anyway, we all got given detention slips, and my friend's dad, who had faught in WW2, wrote on there how disgusted he was at this, comparing it to how the Nazi's would line up all the men in a captured village and shoot them one by one until the person who killed a nazi officer owned up.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

He wasn't called Mr Allen was he?
He used to do that at Purbrook Park School.
We also had Mr Potter in PE who throttled at least 2 kids while I was there.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I thought comprehensive meant being taught more than the three R's not having pupils of varying abilities in the same class

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

It meant both. :)

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

If positive reinforcement does not work then you are just not trying hard enough.
The idea of associating NO=SLAP is brutal conditioning best reserved for animals of a lower order.
What you are describing is remedial action based on the worst case scenarios where the child or others could come to worse harm rather than a general model of how to teach children good behavior.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Careful there m8. He may be reading this. You won't want a defamatory "Friends Reunited" type incident in the courts.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

You try reasoning with a 3 year old then.
If positive reinforcement doesn't work its because it doesn't actually affect the child!
If slapping children was so bad, then how come it wasn't until parents stopped doing it that youth crime increased, people started becoming afraid to go down to the shops after dark because of the groups of disrespectful youths?
Why is it that the number of assults on teachers by pupils have gone up since corporal punishment was abolished?

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

As it's true, I have nothing to worry about.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I've reasoned with a 3 year old and if you make the effort to understand something of what is going on in their tiny heads on their level then it is much more fulfilling for everyone than a smack. Postitive discipline is not a quick fix pill for an existing problem but something that sometimes has to be built up over time and with some effort. Much more effort than a smack.

I don't know quite how you can just casually rubbish the experts like that by making broad statements that positive discipline does not work and has no effect. Maybe you have misunderstood the information in the link I gave or perhaps you need to look for some more expert resources on the subject which may deal with more specific examples.

Have you watched any of that series on TV at the moment (forget what its called) where an expert teaches parents how to deal with unruly children. The results (quite rapid results too) speak for themselves and not a smack in sight.

As I've been trying to point out, smacking is not the only form of discipline. There will be a correlation between the breakdown in *any* form of discipline employed at home and the increase in youth crime or problems at school etc. It is illogical to say it is all because they all weren't smacked enough. It would be more likely that a child may have a problem due to being smacked too much. With a more positive approach you don't have to worry too much about being too positive.

At the end of the day, the fact is that smacking is not allowed in schools and it will never come back. You can either sit there moaning and wishing about the "good ole days" or you can push for a better more positive way. The easiest way to start with that is in the home with your own kids. With the wealth of information we have at our fingertips, instantly available via the internet for free, we have absolutely no excuse for not trying.

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So long as you have the evidence/witnesses available in court to reliably back it up then that's fine. Truth still needs proof.
Just a bit of friendly advice thats all.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Negative reinforcement and punishment are several orders of magnitude more effective than positive reinforcement.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I think that there is a place for both of them.... Positive reinforcement should allways be used first IMO....

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

As a teacher I wouldn't want it as a sanction to even be available for me to use. What I want more than anything is to be able to keep children behind after class, send work that's been messed about over in class home for finishing etc without parents trooping up to school bawling me out (in front of a smirking child) telling me that "no effing way is little Johnny staying in at break to finish this work" etc etc. The kids see that the parents will jump into their arguments and that they're basically untouchable in school... would YOU bother to behave then?

I speak also as someone who had minor behavioural problems as a child - owing to being exceptionally bright and not challenged enough - I was bored out of my mind and spotted the loopholes in the system - but at least then misbehaving had clear consequences... nowadays the sanctions have all been removed from us.

In my time I've encountered 4 year olds who'll stab classmates with scissors and pencils, one child who would sit and punch me in the arm for all the carpet time (also a reception child) and children who will stand and scream and try to punch me (a junior-aged child). Outside of school I've also been verbally and physically assaulted by children aged about 11 or 12 who were known hoodlums in the area. Things ARE out of control.

I still wouldn't want corporal punishment as a sanction though - I'd never use it because I think it's wrong.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

It's easy when you see it day after day not working.
With parents saying "Johnny, I don't want you to do that, it's really not very nice is it?" and seeing the kids totally ignore their parents.
As I said, I know several professionals who have been taught various forms of disipline, and chose to use reasoning with their own children, with dire results.
If this happens with professionals who know all the information, and have been on specific courses, how are the vast majority (and to make a difference it has to be the vast majority) of average parents going to be able to do it and make a difference to society?

Kids soon learn that if they give the right answers to the reasoning questions asked by their parents, they can get on with what they want, without being punished.
Parents says "Now I don't think that was a very nice thing to do, do you?"
Kid thinks "I don't care, I wanted to do it and its not like I'm going to get into trouble for it, but you're holding me up so I can't give an honest answer. If I say what you want to hear then you'll let me go and play"
Kid says "Yes daddy, I'm sorry, I won't do it again"
Adults underestimate how devious children can be.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

More effective for who? It might be several orders of magnitude more *convenient* for the giver of the punishment maybe.
I've already provided evidence that clearly suggests positive discipline is better.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Times have certainly changed since I was a kid and I don't think many of the changes are for the better. Punishment at all levels is a bit of a joke in todays world and the people who deserve to be punished know this and push everything to the limit. Whilst this thread has mainly talked about schoolchildren we should also be looking at older people. The punishment for many crimes isn't that much of a punishment and in some cases culprits look on their punishment as a reward. If you have ever seen the inside of a young offenders or open prison you would be amazed. When I worked for the British Library IT department at Boston Spa we had both a young offenders and open prison next door. Some of the prisoners used to work for us doing manual jobs and gardening. We used to play the prisoners at football and cricket and when playing cricket used to have a meal in the prison. Life for the prisoners was more like a term in a holiday camp rather than a punishment and many reoffende just to get back in for an easy life with good food, accomodation and recreational facilities. We talked many times with prisoners about what would be effective deterrants and several said that corporal punishment would be more of a deterrant than a term inside.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Agreed - What kind of a deterent is sending a car thief to disneyland ? :mad:

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

One of the biggest causes of lack of discipline in children is the parents having differing views on the subject. I have seen many cases of a child being punished either verbally or physically by one parent and the other parent consoling the child and giving them a cuddle. This leads to confusion in the child about what is right and what is wrong and the child playing off one parent against the other which can eventually lead to marital problems. A child will respond and learn more from parents who have talked over the subject of discipline and formulated rules on the subject.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

LOL - It was like this when I was young...

Example - " can I have an icecream dad ? " - " Ask your mother "

" mum - can I have an icecream please, dad said it was o.k. " sure you can :D

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Well said Ian. :)

The other thing is there must be consistency, if it is wrong today it is wrong tomorrow. There is nothing more guaranteed to confuse a young child otherwise.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

It is not just about what the parent says to the child. It is also about how the parent behaves. By smacking you are teaching that ultimately the most "effective" way is the violent way. That cannot be the right way because it just perpetuates more violence. Children are not very keen on patience and will happily mimmick the violent short cut to get an instant result that suits them.
Positive discipline is not an instant cure which you can discard after use. It is a way of life. However, it does not cost anything. The average parent should be able to do it because that is who it is designed for. Started early enough it will work without trouble. Using it on exceptionaly problematic children will obviously take more time and effort.

I think everyone will agree that bringing up children is the hardest thing you will ever do in your life. There are no shortcuts.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Yet with the professionals I've seen, they have the most disruptive, undiciplined children I've ever had the displeasure to meet, despite knowing the techniques you mention, and more.

Accoding to your theories I should be a violent person, and historically, society would consist nearly entirely of extremely violent people as they were brought up having/witnessing the cane being used at school.
But that isn't the case.

Children know a slap is punishment for something they've done which they shouldn't have done, they don't associate it with violence.
It teaches them that if someone does something wrong, they should be punished, the core of Justice.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Another cause is that the child does not even have two parents. Very common these days sadly.
Single parents who do manage to bring up their children well deserve a special medal.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

You cannot deny that smacking is violence whatever level you want to categorise it as. You learned it from your parents. Your parents learned it from their parents...ad infinitum.

Young children don't really have a handle on the concept of absolute justice as you or I know it. They learn that a slap not only hurts them but is also used to get things done your way and they will happily employ this technique themselves against other children. What happens when they get caught inflicting violence? They get another slap. And on and on we go.

Breaking the cycle is diffcult. I think we are in a transition our history and if we just give in and resort back to ye ole smack then we are not advancing ourselves, our children, our children's children etc.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Sheesh! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :(

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Oh ye gods, Timewarrior, will you *PLEASE* stop conflating self-defence with *deliberately injuring* someone to get "revenge"...
:rolleyes:

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

They learn that a slap is the punishment for doing something wrong.
They *are* able to diferenciate that from just thumping someone.
Young children have an excellent handle on the core of justice.
That's why kids are so good at running to their parents to tell on their siblings.
They know their siblings have done something wrong, and they've leant that their parents are the ones to handle the punishment.
This teaches them to respect authority.

If John locks someone else away against their will, should John not be locked away for doing wrong?
Or should you just reason with him, get him to say "yes, I understand what I did was wrong, I'm sorry, I won't do it again" and let him go?

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

My original post was a very a small one so there was no need for you to snip portions out in the quote. If you think your argument is that strong then there should be no need for you to falsely lessen the impact of mine in this way.

Yes children do learn that a slap means that they have done something wrong. Wouldn't you rather not have to slap them at all and get an even better result (especially the child not crying his/her eyes out and hating you even just for a short time)? Also, with positive discipline there is a certain amount of self-learning and general improvement in attitude so that you lessen the chance of other offences occuring for which you would still have to smack for. Specific reactionary physical punishment is just a series of smacks for specific brands of naughtiness throughout each stage of development until eventually they are too old to be smacked.

Doing things more positively does not mean talking to the child in the fashion of an old hippy cliche after the event. It involves getting more involved with them using all of the time you can spare. If you really wanted to you could read about it, learn and try it out.

Anyway, I am one of the old f*ckers around here. Traditionally I am supposed to be the type that says, "bring back the birch" and all that stuff. If even I can realise that there is a more rewarding way then maybe you should give it some genuine thought.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

The main problem here is that some children say they are sorry so regular they never mean it and continue to do the same thing repeatedly. This is true for many chilldren today most of todays children do have a nasty reputation for hurting the feelings or fighting most have disregard for others and no respect for their elders, peers or other peoples property.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

"spare the rod, spoil the child"

The problem nowadays is that there is no effective punishment for kids and/or adults. They know they can be unruly with no comeback.

How can we expect teachers to be able to control disruptive and unruly chidren without:
An effective deterrent?
Support from the childrens parents?
Support from the government?
Support from the legal system?

If a little Ba***rd grows up knowing he can stick two fingers up to authority and get away with it. Then what going to stop him doing that in adult life.

Discipline is a cornerstone of an ordered society, unfortunately the bleeding heart liberals and do gooders have forgotten this, and instead like to invent new terms for things.

Attention deficiency syndrome - Boll*cks. If the kid's not paying attention then bloody well make him pay attention.

It really winds me up.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

And your point is?

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I think that's fairly obvious given your previous post.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Sometimes that's exactly what authority needs, blind obedience should not be encouraged.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

If it was obvious I wouldn't have asked. If you are offering an opposing view to mine it would be handy to either respond to my points or offer some argument of your own.

You have done neither which is why I had to ask what your point was

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Let me spell this out very simply for you as clearly it's becoming too much of a challenge for you to understand.

You, like many other people quoted "spare the rod, spoil the child" out of context, perhaps if you'd read the entire thread you'd have noticed this, obviously you haven't and perhaps it'd be a good idea for you to start from the beginning.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

If people weren't so shocked about two erect fingers they wouldn't do it.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Why do think it is being used out of context? If it doesn't refer to the discipline of children, please advise what it refers to?

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

i think that actually smaking ur child is now illegal isnt it, i think its taking it abit far not allowing parents to decide whether or not they can disapline their child, however there is always the fear of it being taken to far. im not sure about caning etc, although if u knew there was a possiblity then you wouldnt take the risk would you? - i know i wouldnt!

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

Excellent, real excellent post. I completely agree with you. Discipline needs to be taught, and the only way to teach discipline is negative reinforcement and punishment.

You do not see the military handing out candy when the soldiers are obedient. No. They get punished. Hard. Thats why it works in the military.

All evidence shows that positive reinforcement doesn't work for discipline. Look at today's society, and look at the military and yesterday's society. Easy to prove my point.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

All the evidence that Jerrek wants to look at shows that positive reinforcement doesn't work for discipline...

It's easy to take *one* thing and build an entire case out of it. Whether this actually *proves* anything or not, is another matter entirely.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

I have to agree here (about time I came off the fence and posted...)..

I went to a military boarding school, where the can was used (our parents had to sign a form agreeing to it when we started) as a form of punishment. Not the only form, but a form none the less.

You will always get some teacher (I hasten to point out that these are in the minority - a very small number indeed) who gets some form of pleasure out of it, but that can be avoided by setting very strict rules about why/how hard/how many etc.

I was caned on occasions, and it re-inforced the message of how to treat others - don't kick a person when they are down, show respect to your teachers and others in authority etc.

The military now has severe limitations on what it can and cannot give as a punishment (thank you very much the european court of human rights...) but the fact still remains that you know if you are fair and even to others, and do the you will be treated fairly and evenly... (you may not be able to smack the guy, but you can sure make him very tired from running around and doing the crappy jobs).

We had bullies at school - I was bullied, but when it was my turn to be the bigger lad, myself and others were so set against bullies that we managed to all but stamp it out (not literally) amoungst our year group.


In summary :

Bullies do not necessarily beget bullies, violence does not necessarily beget violence...

I went to a school where I was taught to shoot at age 11, how to set traps etc at 12., that has not made me a gun toting killer, but it has taught me self discipline and respect for others.

Corporal punishment works, but only if used sparingly and not as a standard.

Would I smack my kids (as and when we have them) ?
YES, but only if they had failed to respond to other forms of punishment.

It is all about moderation.
If all you do is hit someone, they will see it as normal, and feel that no matter what they do they will get hit, so they might as well do whatever they please.
A balance of positive and negative must be achieved, but IMO (note: this is MY OPINION) there is a place for corporal punishment in the modern society.

<now gets ready for the backlash>

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

You'll forgive me if I'm not going to study the science journals of the last 10 years, read five theses on "upbringing of a child," and pay attention to the experts who have no experience raising children.

My approach is simple and fast. Look at society 30 years ago, the military, and today.

Re: Should Corporal Punishment Be Brought Back ?
 

That is just another polarised view.

In the U.S.A. you have higher prison sentences than we have. In some places you also have the ultimate negative reinforcement, the death penalty, yet you still have a much higher crime rate than the U.K.
How does that "all evidence shows..." go again?