ah, cr*p:blush:
Then again, I got the reference from a public area.
*off to find a mod*
-just pm'd Andre-

We did, ta:)

That was quick ... I thought Bluewater was meant to be a grand day out or something

lol, we're only 5 miles away:D

as far as im concerned, everyone should be left to believe what they want and not have anything forced on them by anyone else :D

me, im an atheist i dont believe in religion at the moment, doubt i ever will but hey who knows. i dont force my views on anyone else though, as far as im concerened they can believe anything they want to if it makes them happy and doesnt affect anyone else.

also im probably slightly skeptical cos it gets into the nasty exponential argument of if god exists and created us, what created god, and what created that one etc etc etc. i dont like thinking to the realms of infinity it hurts my brain :cry: especially as it cant be proved or disproved... :shrug:

Despite being an evangelical Christian, I couldn't agree more. Naturally I want you to find what I have found, but seeing as what I found is essentially a relationship, it would be self-defeating to try to force it on anyone.

jehovah's witnesses anyone?

our house is in their black book, my mum and dad had a huge argument with them a while ago as my mum almost electrocuted herself cos of them... whoo for circuit breakers :D

and you say ur evangelical... can anyone explain to me whats different about all the chrisitanities? i never understood why there are so many, we only got taught about islam in RE...

Over to Towny and Russ.....

An irresistible invitation ... :D

First I ought to define 'force' ... I have done door-to-door work in the past but don't consider it 'forcing'. Forcing religion on people is making it illegal not to be a certain religion, as in some islamic countries, and as it was in this country in the middle ages. I can's speak for islam, but as Christianity is about a relationship between God and the believer, to force it on someone is pointless. You can force someone to recite prayers and rituals, but these outward things are not essentially what Christianity is.

As for the difference between 'Christianities', well, there is only one Christianity but the expression of it varies for all kinds of reasons.

Normally, a new denomination is formed when a group of people in a particular church read the Bible, think, 'hang on, we've drifted away from what the Bible actually teaches...' and go to their leaders about it. If the leaders refuse to budge, they go off and form a new church instead.

That is a hopelessly simplified account of how it happens, but to give some examples:

1. Although it was Henry VIII's political needs that gave the impetus for the formation of the Church of England, there was already a great deal of discontentment among Christians in England about the way Rome was running things. They were in favour of reform but didn't have the clout to do it until Henry found it to his advantage to support them (he wanted a divorce).

2. The Methodist church was founded when John Wesley, an Anglican cleric, complained that there was too little attention to Bible study and Godly living in the Church of England. He never wanted to form a new denomination, but he and his followers were eventually hounded out of the C of E. 'Methodist' was actually an insult coined by the Anglicans to disparage them for their habit of meeting in each other's homes for Bible study and prayers.

3. Other minor denominations - Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, etc etc etc etc - all formed when one or more folks felt challenged by God to get back to the fundamental teaching of the Bible. Sometimes named after that part of Biblical teaching that most obviously prompted them to form a new denomination. EG, Baptists are characterised by their emphasis on baptizing adults who have decided for themselves to become Christians, rather than babies.

4. Among the newer denominations, despite their names often focusing on one particular aspect of Christian belief or practice, they all tend to share a lot in common; they tend to baptise adults only, believe in the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer (first given during the Jewish festival of Pentecost), and have an evangelistic outlook (i.e. believe that the 'good news' should be actively shared and proclaimed).

Cheers, that's several working days down the pan :D

not with you on that one.....:confused:

The Fortean Times. I didn't know that, but I feel a few working days might be spent reading that... :rolleyes:

Ah yes. Sorry to be dense. btw...There are lots of mags like that in the shops. Have a look in the bigger whsmiths. The 'truth'(:D ) is out there....

I had 12 years of Catholic schooling.

No, there are many differences between christianity and catholicism. This is not intended as a dig at anyone but not realising this is indicitive of many peoples' lack of understanding of religions and faiths.

For example there are some who consider Catholicism to be more of a 'cult' given it's teachings.

rotfl, excellent:D

It's true! Praying to and worshipping Mary and the saints, this is directly against what is written in the Bible. The many beautiful ornaments found in so many Catholic churches, although wonderful and a glorious tribute to God, are exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught!

Time for an Iconoclasm then?;) ;) ;)

Oooo painful ;)

I know. I just think the way you put it was very good.:D

However, although the term Mariolotry is often bandied about, if my memory serves me right, what Catholics are doing is praying for the intercession of Mary or of a saint with Jesus, not quite the same thing as worshipping Mary or a saint.

They would say that though wouldn't they?

Fact is, the Bible is quite explicit on this point. We are to 'come boldly to the throne of grace' ... that is, directly to Jesus ourselves. No intermediary required.

Saints and Mary are important in Roman Catholicism because early missionaries incorporated pagan gods as 'saints' into christianity in order to win converts more easily.

However, and I'm probably incorrect here, isn't Grace something that you don't deserve but which is freely given to you by God? So how is it possible for you to attain it by your own acts?

Indeed you do not attain grace by your acts. You can go before the throne of grace because he has given his grace, not in order to prove you've done something to make you worth of it.

Grace as God's gift makes a nonsense of another Catholic habit - that of doing penance after confession in order to secure forgiveness.

Agreed but read the words to 'Hail Mary', that sounds a lot like a prayer of worship to these years. Jesus also stated (not sure of the verse, I'm sure I'll find it soon) in the Bible that the only way to God is through Him and no-one else.

I'm sure you're right. I was just quoting the 'official' version, as it were. What went through the mind of a mediaeval peasant, especially as all the church services were in Latin, I don't really know.

What Rome intended to go through the minds of the peasants was 'hmm, this is all too mysterious for me, I'd better trust the priest and do what he says.' Therein lay the source of their corrupt power. Wycliffe's translation of the Bible into English in the late 14th century got him in serious trouble with the Pope because it allowed the peasants to read the Bible (or, rather, have it read to them) and find out they were being taken for a ride by the clergy.

Well... no... but just because he created the principles and set a science, doesn't mean that he has continuous control over it... :drunk: :D

True. But seeing as this thread is (loosely!) about the God of the Bible, the Bible is clear that God remains active in his creation. I think I quoted a bit earlier about him bringing (or witholding) rain.

Looking at it another way, if God is the absolute authority, and the laws of physics exist only because of his decision, and he has the power to do whatever he wants whenever he wants, then you could say that the laws of physics only remain constant because he continually wills that they should.

If that's the case, even if God doesn't start the day thinking 'right, I'm going to make it rain on Manchester again today,' then the fact that he reaffirms the laws of physics, allowing meteorological processes to do their thing and rain on Manchester (again), means that he is still involved.

We could take it a step further. God continues to uphold the laws of physics. Therefore it's going to rain on Manchester. But God is also omniscient (all-knowing) so he knows it's going to rain on Manchester, and he is also omnipotent (all-powerful) so he is quite capable of intervening to divert the rain if he chooses. After all, he made the rules, he is outside the universe that is governed by the rules, he is not subject to the rules. Whether as a sign to some church congregation or in answer to someone's prayer, or some other reason only he knows, he is capable of making the rain lay off Manchester even if it's pouring down in Stockport. This is what Christians call a miracle (actually it's what anyone calls a sunny day in Manchester).

A miracle could therefore be described as an intervention in the universe by God, in which he temporarily suspends the laws of physics.

Wycliffe Jean translated the Bible? (Into patois, presumably.) Wow! I didn't know he was even religeous.:D

You sure know how to bring a conversation back down to earth..... ;)

One of my many talents:D