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Did Jesus renounce Judaiasm then and become a Christian ? Also why do Jews believe in Jesus if he said their version was wrong ?

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You didn't think I could stay away did you? My old operation scar always starts to throb when there's a good old nthw religious thread brewing :D

Actually I've been busier these last few weeks than I ever have, and there's more to come for the next couple of months ... I'll drop in when I can, but it's nice to be missed! :wavey:

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So god wasn't that bothered that these people were getting his teachings wrong?
If so, why send jesus to sort it all out? Why not send gabriel to correct them as they made the mistake?
Unless of course, he didn't know they were getting it wrong...




But if the bible is known for being made up by people with good intentions, and you are using the bible as the basis that jesus was sent by god, then your basis is flawed, as in all likelyhood, jesus was just another man making things up with good intentions (I don't recall any roman writings actually acknowledging his miracles, even if they do acknowledge he existed).
After all, if god felt that the mistakes were big enough for jesus to have to come and correct them, and what a major correction his teachings were!, then why wait so long before the end of OT for him to arrive?

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We do miss you Towny, these threads just aren't the same without the input from both you and Russ

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Didn't renounce it, just tried to correct it.
Think of jesus as the master weight used by the trading standards people.
It goes to a fruit stall at the local market and tests their scales to see if they are showing 1Kg of fruit as 1Kg.
If they aren't, the stall owner corrects the faulty scales so that they are brought inline with the master weight.

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Jesus never became a Christian - 'Christian' means 'one who imitates Christ' (i.e. Jesus) ... actually the literal meaning is 'little Christ', and the term was coined as an insult to those who followed Jesus. Jesus was born a Jew, and in his teaching claimed to complete or fulfill certain promises made by that religion. The consequence of following what Jesus said brought his followers into conflict with those Jews who did not accept his right to 'complete' or 'fulfill' their religion. Those Jews still claim to be the true children of Abraham (they trace their religion back to him) today, whereas Jesus said those who are truly Abraham's children are those who live a life obedient to God, just like Abraham did.

Today, 'Messianic Jews', who believe in Jesus, maintain their cultural attachment to the Jewish way of life, but they have allowed their relationship with God and their worship of him to be completed in the way that Jesus taught.

Incidentally, to believe that someone existed in history is not the same as believing the things they claimed were true - I suspect there is a little confusion on that point here. :)

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OK this will confuse you...Jesus was never a Christian! Christianity started soon after He returned to Big G :)

He sent Jesus because someone had to die for our sins and He didn't want it to be us.

Put it this way - there are MANY Christians who pay little or no attention to the OT and actually buy Bibles with only the NT therein.

As for the Romans, it was against their better interested to write about Jesus in case people believed Him over their 'power', but His teachings and works were so incredible they had to mention Him.

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Scientists say, "we have evidence to say that this or that happened 50 millions years ago until someone else proves different". It is never a "belief". It can be a theory but if it is then they say so but to make a good theory you still have to be able to apply it to other things to back it up. You just can't make stuff up and say "this is so".
Religious people say "we believe this or that happened xxxx years ago and we don't care what anyone else says because that is what we believe no matter what anyone else says.....oh and we have this ambiguous storybook full of chinese whispers and contradictions to prove it".

PS BTW: It's "Cavalry" not "Calvery". Calvery is what illiterate american people say instead of the word cavalry. On the otherhand "Calvary" is a a place in Utah (a US state which is probably the worst possible place in the western world for a non-christian to live). :D

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One can't destroy its credibility because it does not really have any. However, one can increase the ambiguity though and Russ is certainly doing a fine job of that.
:D

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Um no, they say "Stone age man burped then scratched his bum" instead of "It is believed Stone Age man etc".

Using scientific principles (which demands proof beyong reasonable doubt) is unlikely to produce anything which will sway the world's view of the Bible. But science and religion are made up of two very different foundations - proof and faith. Christians don't require proof, we go along with what we feel is right and more often than not, is something we have a personal experience of.

Just to clarify - I don't get my faith from the Bible - which is just a book. I neither worship it or kneel before it. My inspiration comes from God and through Jesus.

oooOOOoooo!! And if a frog had wings then it wouldn't bump it's ass each time it hopped!

Nah!! :)

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I'm completely confused, gonna leave it for abit and have a beer :)

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Scientists say things like "the evidence points to stone age man burping and scratching his bum, here is the evidence:" the media reports "stone age man burped, scratched his bum, then invented page 3"

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...then got a job working for 3 :D

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I suppose, in a small way, I do :D

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I knew I needed one more reason to hate you :D

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But russ, you're a christian, so please forgive me :D

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But you are quite happy to extract the bits you like from your bible as you see fit yet ignore the contradictions and the bizarre.
Without this bible there would not be any god or jesus as you know it so you must hold it in some esteem (worship) otherwise where did your faith come from?

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A slight inaccuracy, I pay more attention to the NT than the OT.

I respect it, but there is ONLY one thing I worship and that's God, the creator of all on Earth :)

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Who the bible portrays as a genocidal tyrant and not a nice bloke at all.

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Now who's picking some bits out of the Bible?? :D

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Rather important bits though.
Destroying entire races simply becuase they choose to live a life which you don't want them to?


I know the bible constantly says he is a loving god, but I find very few bits of evidence to support that.
And can anything justify genocide enough to be able to worship the genocider? (sp)
That is one thing I cannot get my head around when it comes to jews/muslims/christians

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if enough people want this thread to close then i shall request a closure, because this has just turned in to another 'V religion' thread, not what i intended :(

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What did you intend kronny?

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i intended for there to be a discussion about the comments made by the cardinal, and how a continual trend of a 'scare' issue seems to be building towards diffarent lifestyles that dont seem to agree with church leaders, or associates.

if it went slightly towards another related subject then it would be fine, but since i have come back online, it seems it has turned in to another 'prove religion wrong thread'

IMO this is wrong, hence i may put in a request for closure.

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Ah of course, that thread got merged. I was a bit confused then :)
Whoever meged, report to kink for a good spanking!

Right, to address the homosexual aspect....

The cardinal cannot understand why people are homosexual.
In order to try and understand he has built up an image in his head as to what homosexuals are, ie not normal people but crazed perverts (why else would they do the things they do?)

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True, it's like trying to use science to convince people that astrology is complete nonsense...

Well wouldn't you if someone came along and said "Hey, guys, you know your religious texts? Well they're all wrong, see!"

Still, it's not as if Christians would object to such a thing...

:rofl: This must be some use of the word "rarely" I wasn't previously aware of!

I'm not even going to *bother* listing some of the many Christian websites out there which frequently and with gusto describe the Bible as the "undisputed truth"!!!

But those sites *know* and can *prove* that *their* version was guided by God (or some other such reasoning) and therefore it is absolutely, completely and utterly TRUE!

How can you say that their faith is wrong?

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Roses are reddish.
Violets are blueish.
If it wasn't for Jesus,
We'd all be Jewish!

:D

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I think people may recall I addressed this one some time ago.

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Err, Buddhists do not "accept Buddha as their saviour". In fact there is a Zen Koan that states "The Buddha is a piece of toilet paper" (not the sort of thing you'd say about a saviour!)

The point is you do not *have* to accept Buddha as your saviour to become enlightened, indeed you actually have to do entirely the opposite because the enlightenment is *yours*, not his.

The Buddha set out the "Four Noble Truths" and the "Eight-fold Path" but it is not about "belief" it is about action:

The Four Noble Truths:

1. The truth about suffering is that it exists. Life is suffering. Birth, aging and dying is suffering.

2. Our reaching into the world of dreams, our desire to fulfill what cannot be fulfilled is what brings us our suffering.

3. Only when we have broken the mirrors of illusion can we end our suffering, and

4. the Eight-Fold Path can help us to break our habits of suffering.


The Eight-Fold Path:

1. Right Knowledge
* Understand the Four Noble Truths
2. Right Thinking
* Decide to set a life on the correct path
3. Right Speech
* Don't lie
* Don't criticize others unjustly
* Don't use harsh language
* Don't gossip
4. Right Conduct
* Follow the Five Precepts
5. Right Livelihood
* Earn a living that does not harm living things
6. Right Effort
* Conquer all evil thoughts
* Strive to maintain good thoughts
7. Right Mindfulness
* Become intensely aware of all the states in body, feeling, and mind.
8. Right Concentration
* Deep meditation to lead to a higher state of consciousness (enlightenment)

See http://www.boloji.com/buddhism/00110.htm for example for more information.

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Are we nearly there yet?
:zzz: ;)

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Type faster graham, we need you to catch up :D

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Look, it's not my fault if I take a few hours off for insignificant things like having a life and you lot decide to double the size of the thread...!!!

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Thread closed on request of thread starter.