Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Er...don't go calling UKOnline, Bill. According to the front page article:
---------- Post added at 07:04 ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 ----------

A few seconds/minutes maybe but a whole lifetime of progressively nastier DRM to contend with, I'm sure, for your troubles.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

For me, traffic shaping is something that is obviously needed to ease congestion etc. As has been said, other ISP's are doing it / will be doing it, it's inevitable.
Only thing i don't like is the secrecy part. I would have had a lot more understanding/acceptance if NTL had been open about their intentions (including the changing of the AUP) from day one :erm:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Problem is is Be is not ready till the 30th of august according to sam knows so it to be ukonline they both offer the same package.

---------- Post added at 08:03 ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 ----------

[quote=grubbymitts]Er...don't go calling UK Online, Bill. According to the front page article:
however which ISP told there customers about it in a email and gave them the option to leave. This is the finale straw with me and NTL. Dont forget i have had bad speeds because of this. I have billing issues that i have not posted on this forum. So all in all its about time i got rid and gave someone else a try after 6 years as a customer of Nynex, Cable and witless, and now Ntl.


EDIT

I have a problem with my line which will be sorted on the 13th of april and then i can transfer my broadband from NTL to Ukonline :). Now anyone got the number for NTL disconnections ?.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

So long as it's not looked at by a human being nothing wrong with that at all. No privacy implication there, it's their network you are using to transport traffic, they can do with it what they will.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Agreed.

Traffic shaping on the level that ntl appear to be implamenting cannot be done at the human level, the hardware ntl will need to install will do all that for them. Obviously there will be traffic data that will be analysed by humans, but it is largely data flow based on volume over time and port traffic and there will be insufficient time for human intervention to make this work properly that would breach any privacy issues.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Don't be so sure:


Taken from here.

EDIT:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

So why shouldn't I be so sure?

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

So data mining peopleââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s online habits and using that data to change their online behaviour has no privacy implications then?

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Thoses dl from newsgroups GrabIt beta 6 has been release and the dl speeds seem be lot more stable getting 10,000kb/s to 12,000kb/s.You now have the option of up to 32 connection slots.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Of course it has, but ntl is traffic shaping, not looking at each individual packet at the human level. I don't think ntl have the cash to take on a substancial storage of all their customers traffic.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

sad but true, it seems to be if someone notices how bad the service is they get told you can leave or here have a discount, it is easier to do this then invest.

---------- Post added at 14:42 ---------- Previous post was at 14:39 ----------

I think in my case shaping is almost certianly going to provide an improvement but ntl should on top of this doing an upgrade, but if they do the shaping alone then they probably using shaping to replace network investment rather then compliment it.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Well after 6 years as a customer with first Nynex then Cable and Witless and finally Ntl i am on the move to BT and Ukonline. 13th of this month is the big day for me. Will be on the phone to disconnections first thing Monday morning will give them 30 days. The situation is that i cannot see Ntl just keeping to the 6 till 11 slot. soon they will use it to extract as much money from the customer as they can without investing any back in.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

How long until they introduce a new tier with no traffic shaping at a £45 a month? :erm:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

6 to 11 doesnt apply here right now, it starts declining around midday and isnt upto a good standard until around 2 or 3am. The last 24 hrs have blow that out of the window tho and their was contention all the way through the night.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

When they get a system which can actually cope with the provisioned speeds (DOCSIS 3.0).

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

And would that be coming soon :rofl:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Define soon.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Well in NTL times that is between now and the next 5 years or 2 buyouts and a chapter 11 ?.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

....:D

To be honest, ntl could just do as other people, just not announce things until they are ready to role. I can't actually remember the last official ntl document that said coming soon about a product. Well maybe VOD but then there is a schedule for that now.

One thing that has to be remembered, is the scale of operations that BT and ntl work on, things are just going to take longer.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Having been on the inside and outside of NTL, It saddens me to watch them going down the road they are. They have fantastic staff who will help the customer all they can, Then they have these money grabbing idiots called senior management, who have no idea what a network is or where you would find one.
who have one and only one task in life, get as much as you can out of this thing called a network, Dont spend money on it, then reduce the use of the network while trying everything in there power to charge more for it whilst giving even less. :LOL:

You might think i am bitter and twisted but i have seen the change over the last year and i dont like what i am seeing.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Can't agree with you here-

I agree that the network has been allow to degrade due to underinvestment, however nothing that can be done to change that fact.

What ntl have to do now is be proactive and forward thinking- in order to improve the network would take time and cost big £ÃÆ ’‚£Ãà¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚£s. That kind of investment would big price hikes- not something that would go down well with current customers, and something that would reduce the number of new customers as well.

If DOCSIS 3 is going to be implemented then this will cost a lot, and will mean ntl has an excellent network to utilise, IMO it is best that ntl shape in order to "save up" for DOCSIS 3 and other network imrovements that secure a good future, than spending now on a network which will require continuous spending.

The shaping is going to be implemented between 6pm and midnight- imo people who need to use newsgroups/ p2p (the traffic likely to be affected most) have plenty of other hours in the day to download. These customers are the one that provide the most strain on the network, and they are the customers that every ISP wants rid of... so if i were ntl i would take the "well if they leave then nevermind" attitude. Better to lose one customer who downloads huge amounts via p2p and affects the service of others, than 10 "normal" internet users who get annoyed that it takes ages to load a webpage when they get home from work.

unlimited, if you don't want a shaped connection then why are you going to UKOnline???

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

All isp's will shape. But not all isps release any problematic updates on a Friday so no one See's it.

Other isp's tell there customers what they are doing in emails,
Other isp's give them the chance to change if they dont like it.

I have a connection that is up and down like a w***** draws and i know why. I have no intention of being a Ginny pig for there tests again. Far as i am concerned what i experienced for a month not long back will happen again. I pay for a connection which i use to download from newsgroups, I did that over night and i continue to do so i dont download between 6 and 11 as i am playing online games. So why should i suffer between 6 and 11 so they dont have to invest in the network.

And one final point i will be getting up to 22meg for 29.99, I am 2.3 km from the exchange so expect to get about 14 to 16 meg. Now that to me is much better value. I have also taken the opportunity to get a BT line so i can get all the extras that are out there ie caller display, Remember that has been on BT's network for years but is not seen as necessary on NTL's where i live. So all in all i am moving to a better option as far as i am concerned.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

that's £29.99 plus £10ish BT line rental.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

yeah I just only recently noticed ukonline are doing shaping, I am going to have a read of adslguide later to see how bad it is.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Homechoice installed on Friday. Will cancel NTL on Monday.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Don't forget if you can do it to switch the TV off entirely, will give you the other 2Mbps you aren't getting from your internet :)

I get about 940kB/s on Homechoice :)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Indeed just like my £10.00 line rental to NTL on top of my £24.99 to NTL. I need a phone so no matter if i had BT or NTL i need to pay for one

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

That is bull IMO on mutliple levels. I use NTLs phone system, does that give them the right to listen to my phone calls, even with non-human means. I very much doubt that as it would surely be classified as an illegal wiretap. Why should a data network, which by the way carries VOIP traffic, be treated any differently? If they are shaping at the transport layer then that is a different matter, something I'd appropriate to line routing on the PSTN, but deep packet inspection is simply wrong and IMO a breach of my privacy. Wether it's a computer or a human being doing the inspection is irrelevant!

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I guess you aren't a big fan of the fact ntl are legally obliged to be able to monitor your phone calls at any time.

It's bull on zero levels, your IP traffic isn't protected by any legal statute and no record is made of the contents of the packets merely the protocol being used.

Think outside of the OSI 7 layer model and you're there. The traffic shaping gear will know you were using Bittorrent, it won't have stored which torrent you were using. To gain knowledge of exactly which torrent you are downloading is to assume legal responsibility for your behaviour (being aware of exactly what a customer is doing suggests responsibility for it) and puts ntl at legal risk.

I hope this in some small way reassures. Yes ntl will be able to tell that you were using Bittorrent, VoIP, http, etc, however the actual contents of those sessons remains a mystery.

The only reason for the packet inspection is because a layer 4 lookup on the protocols is trivial to avoid.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I've been told that traffic shaping is not currently active at the moment.

I was also told that shaping might work in the following ways...
(Note: This info was given as a personal opinion so may or may not be correct)

• On-net transfers (i.e. between ntl: customers) will not be shaped because each customer is paying ntl: for their bandwidth.
• ntl: users receiving data from another ISP will not be shaped because they are sucking from another ISP. Having said that the ntl: user maybe subject to shaping on the other network
• A non-ntl: receiving data from an ntl: customer is likely to be shaped because they are taking data from ntl:'s network but are not paying ntl: for the bandwidth

Ben

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Thats quite interesting :tu:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

So if i read this correctly the following could happen.

I want to upload my latest convention pictures to my non ntl hosted website i would have been shaped.

I want to make a skype call to my friend in Norway i would have been shaped.

I want to make changes to my Non ntl hosted website i would have been shaped.

The list goes on.

Waits for the possibility of this :- ........"if you pay a additional charge we will not shape your non NTL provided voip calls"

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

OK, not unknown I guess. Doesn't do anything to tackle local congestion but does improve customer experience potentially.

Umm ok. Even though ntl will potentially be paying transit costs regardless of the direction of the traffic this is considered as not being a major issue.

Well no I'd expect to see that shaped more because upstream bandwidth is limited on the cable network but if this is the case this seems to be all about trying to save a few quid trying to save transit and peering setup costs. Considering that various other ISPs are busily putting multiple 10Gbit ports into LINX, Amsix, etc, this seems lame.

If this goes ahead on those terms hope you aren't the lucky person who has to deal with the depeering requests when you ruin the traffic patterns.

I'd suspect with this will come some traffic redirection, directing requests from on-net customers to other on-net customers to fulfill, which can even potentially increase upload congestion from customers getting hits they wouldn't usually. I guess that'll be where the caching comes in...

This the first part of a project to turn the whole ntl network into one giant LAN?

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

could this traffic shaping thing be having an adverse effect on my general internet connection over the last couple of months. since this topic started my connection has been lost so many times I've lost count .all the lights go out on the modem for a few minutes up to a few hours. in the evenings the connection is very poor lots of slow pages, pages not found and dropped gaming connections.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Ok, I understand that NTL will only be looking at the protocols and ports its users are using and that this is done on a machine level. But I’m still concerned about how this general data is used. IF it is only used to prioritise time sensitive traffic like VoIP than that’s fine. But if it is used in the way I described in a previous post:

• restrict traffic to destination X over destination Y because NTL has some deal with Y.
  
• use or sell the data for marking purposes.
  
• charge different rates for different data types.

My electricity supplier doesn't care if I'm watch TV or mowing the lawn. They charge for what I use.

My water supply is unmetered, but even if it wasn't the water company wouldn't monitor if I was taking baths or showers.

I want an ISP that can provide me with a connection to the internet, what’s so hard about that?

If NTL needs to change its business model or pricing to remain profitable so be it. But currently I pay for a connection. That connection is capable of 10MB download and 512k upload, subject to a fair use policy of 75GB per month.
NTL need to inform me if that changes.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

It's an "up to 10mb" service not a dedicated 10mb service

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Erm no. Traffic shaping will NOT affect anything like your Modem, if you're having these problems, I suggest you contact Tech Support.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Your electricity company may charge you different rates for daytime and nightime usage. This is a kind of traffic shaping designed to tempt you to move some of your consumption to offpeak hours.

Your water company may ban the use of hosepipes and other things during periods of low water reserves.

Your telephone company may charge you more for use during peak periods.

Traffic shaping goes on in many walks of life. Often this is done by differential charging which makes you think twice about when you use something.

The big problem with the internet is that some users want the fastest speeds with the lowest latency at a cheaper price than anyone else charges. This is something that no ISP can offer. As internet speeds get faster and faster something has to give. Maximum speeds will become harder to achieve. To give a reasonable level of service at a reasonable price to the majority of customers every ISP will have to take some action which will upset some of its customers. Users who expect an unlimited service with constant ability to achieve the maximum speed may get what they want for a short period of time after they have jumped ship from an ISP who cannot provide it but will soon find themselves looking elsewhere when their new ISP fails to deliver what they want.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Well I did say capable

"made so as to be able to: a car capable of doing 90 miles an hour

As my dictionary puts it.

I just feel ISPs need to be clearer and more transparent about their products and that the ISP should only be the carrier and not dictate peopleââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s usage beyond a fair use policy.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Traffic shaping is here to stay yes. But My ISP should have the guts to admit they are doing it instead of releasing the information on a friday night and hope noone see's it.


On the point of jumping ship and times that speeds should be available.

I have been a customer of cable for more than 6 years and have been an employee of cable for over 11 years. However they have managed in the last 6 months to lose all of my custom. Why you might ask.

A. Not supplying the services i require. When other companies have had those services for years.

B. NOT telling me they are or have changed my level of service and hoping i will not notice "that was the final straw BTW"

C. I do not expect to achieve full speed on my broadband at all times and in fact do not make heavy demands on it during peak time and try not to use p2p software that fills the upstream. what i do ask and expect is.At least 75% of my speed on any given time. Check another thread showing my speeds over the last month that showed speeds less than 20% of my speed on a Sunday morning :Yikes:. My isp to clearly inform me of changes to my service which would in fact change the above.

And finally when i do phone up to report a fault i do not expect a its not us gov check your pc for Spyware, virus,cold,flu or anything else they can blame instead of admitting that they might have a problem.

However i am glad to say that will not be my problem soon :)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Thats true but the phone companies are open about it, users know what their paying for. They don't cut you off 30 minutes into a call, or interrupt your call if its just chit chat in favour of someone making and important business call.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Already done, it's called peering and transit.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Peering is about the route not the destination.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

i know, but the OP said "restrict traffic to destination X over destination Y because NTL has some deal with Y", NTL will probs send some data over a particular crappy peering/transit link to slow it down (restrict), rather than on their "ultra speedy" high priced link.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I have no problem with them being legally obliged to be able to monitor my phone. I'd have a serious problem if they routinuely did with no legal compulsion.
That hits the nail on the head and is I believe a failure with the legal system. I also wonder wether existing statutes could come into play with the likes of VOIP traffic? I'm no lawyer so I'll leave that to the legal beagles but there is a definite link between PTSN statutes and data networks that carry VOIP (IMO).
That's all fine, but the fact that they know, or at least, look at what I'm doing is an invasion of my privacy.
Unfortunately there's no reassurance in what's been said. I'm not trying to be argumentative but the above in it's own right is an invasion of my privacy. Why the hell should NTL know that I'm using FTP or HTTP or NTTP etc etc. That is none of their business. I pay for a data connection not a data connection that looks at what I'm using it for and decides wether to slow down my traffic flow.
Very true but it is becoming increasingly possible to 'hide' traffic through encryption. so even Layer 7 shaping is ineffectual. Whose betting that over time we will see all encrytped, or non identifiable traffic, shaped?

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

or... as lack of investment continues and sending technical support to a call centre in Indian, eventually some customers will have to give up.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I dont know the contracts ntl have regarding their peering but there is some flaws to the shaping rules mrben mentioned if they accurate and I understand it right.

If the peering is on the basis that equal traffic is going both directions and ntl start shaping only outbound traffic that could breach the contract.

If ntl pay fully for the peering and as such any traffic going over it is probably at ntl's discretion and they can shape as they please.

If the shaping is only for traffic from ntl to other isps presumably meaning upload traffic this will have no affect to the current downstream congestion which is clear on their network.

Also all the isps that I know of that use shaping are shaping downstream traffic so I just cant believe this is true, I think they will shape on type of traffic regardless of which way its going and the only traffic that will probably remain truly unshaped is VOIP services charged for by ntl themselves and traffic that an external isp may have paid ntl a premium for to have it unshaped (an example maybe bbc pay ntl to have their imp prioritised.)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Thanks Ignition. I'll try it.

Must admit I had a problem this morning with the box and had to phone customer service. A very helpful chap sorted it out very quickly. I* was surprised to receive an unsolicited call from him 15 minutes later, when he told me he had been checking my line and I had had a few noise problems yesterday. Told me he was fixing it as we spoke and not to worry if my TV froze for about 30 sec and the box rebooted. I always wondered what customer service was and now I know!;)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

that part is scary, it seems to indicate its ok to have that kind of congestion and shaping is the necessary fix. This is what I dont like, if congestion is emulating a DOS before shaping then questions need to be asked.

Also heavy users are never going to cause that kind of congestion only overselling can, we have figures coming from isps where they say under %3 are heavy users and the other 97% are normal so tell me how %3 users can cause congestion to the level where it feels like a denial of service.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Interesting. I have noticed a slowdown in p2p/HTTP downloads during the evening. It doesn't really bother me though as I usually game dring the evening and I always get rock solid low pings :)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

From: http://www.freepress.net/deadend/=neutrality

http://www.freepress.net/netfreedom/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality
http://www.democraticmedia.org/issue...eutrality.html

Does the following quote sound familiar?
Let's start the campaign in the UK then, as network neutrality is disappearing in the UK and nobody appears to be doing anything about it.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Thanks for the info Mick.

Whether it was actually a mistake or a very good excuse given the feelings of many forum members, I suppose we will never know.

I would like to think the former, but thats the optimist in me :)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

If NTL have already paid for traffic shaping kit they will use it at some point.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I'd like to think it was the latter. :)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Do notice that it says 'work in progress' though, so maybe they only intend to update the user policy when the systems are in operation nationwide.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Really?!? I would never have guessed Neil :p:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I may be missing something here, but do we know if NTL actually have bought any traffic shaping equipment?

All I can find is a change to Ts&Cs which NTL have now said was released by mistake, and a link Neil posted to a product that can be used to shape network traffic.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Unfortunately we will never know at this stage in the cat and mouse process due to NDA and the like. ;)

I know what i know and that's all i am saying.

This stinks of being court with your pants down NTL.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Its an idea.

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:47 ----------

Ntl have the equipment. I am not guessing it is a fact.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

this is taking the Pi** now, earlier i was downloading some music from itunes fine at about 8mbps now just ran a speed test and got this

Mon, 03 Apr 2006 20:39:28 GMT

1st 512K took 5531 ms = 92.6 KB/sec, approx 763 Kbps, 0.75 Mbps
2nd 512K took 7703 ms = 66.5 KB/sec, approx 548 Kbps, 0.54 Mbps
3rd 512K took 6687 ms = 76.6 KB/sec, approx 631 Kbps, 0.62 Mbps
4th 512K took 7547 ms = 67.8 KB/sec, approx 559 Kbps, 0.55 Mbps

Overall Average Speed = approx 625 Kbps, 0.62 Mbps



To repeat this test from the source server click here.





this is on a 10mb line
so they deff are shaping now

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

or theres just congestion on the network

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

yeah must be a shedload then!!

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

NTL must have known this would happen. If there is only around 33Mbps on a UBR then 3 and a bit people maxing out their 10Mbps is going to kill it. Surely they knew that?

Traffic shaping is a good idea until they get their act and their network together but the shaping they must be enforcing (if any) seems rediculous in speed terms. I can 99.9% of the time max out my 2Mbps connection no problem at all.

You pay for 10Mbps, you should get at least half of it garunteed (at least within the NTL network).

Just my £0.02!

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

It was a marketing decision, not a technical one.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

If they were shaping your results would look BETTER (then that) not worse.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Still, they should have known it would happen. They are just trying to be better than everyone else for speed.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

they should have gradually increased the 3meg tier - e.g. upped it to 4meg and then waited a few months to increase it to 5meg etc.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I'm all for shaping. If your a heavy downloader then you will likely already leave your machine on all day..... So wheres the harm? I would be grateful to Ntl's efforts in maintaining a speedy responsive network.

I currently limit my download speed from 7 am to 12 midnight

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

So should a user be allowed to pay less for the period per day that NTL intensionaly drops the speed down ?.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I still think the whole shared community thing sucks. What somebody else does with their connection has got nothing to do with me and should not affect my service. So maybe its unfortunate it cannot be that everybody has enough bandwidth to max their connections but soon / one day it will I'm sure.

...even though I don't suffer from such problems :D

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

it will affect your service though if a number of users on the same UBR as you are maxing their connections out all the time. I'm in favour of traffic prioritisation - eg. voip first, web pages second, p2p 3rd. provided it isn't used as a way of cramming as many users as possible onto the network with the min of investment in upgrades.

ie. it's obvious my VOIP phone call shouldnt go tits up just cos there's a temporary surge of use on the network - that should be managed by traffic prioritisation BUT... the prioritisation should be for surges of use not for managing usage.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

As far as i am concerned if you pay for a service thats what you should receive, not a diluted excuse for a service. Could you imagine if you paid for a bus pass & did a regular journey of say 10 miles each day, but then got told you would have to walk the last 2 miles because the bus was packed

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

On the bus your pass doesn't guarantee you a seat though does it? Especially at peak times when it takes a lot longer to get where it is going.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

But when does a lot longer due to shaping where they purposely slow your traffic become a rip off to save spending on upgrades ?

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

yes i know that but i said walk the last 2 miles besides that, that is natural congestion not artificial. traffic shaping is more like the driver going down the road with his foot on the brakes

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I suppose. There isn't much point in upgrading roads to 5-6 lane monsters purely to cope with the rush hours though is there ;)

Nah I can see good and bad points of shaping. Right now I'm fairly lucky and have decent speeds so don't really see any bad points from congestion etc. but if this changes I'd be wanting Ntl/Telewest/Virgin to get the chequebook out and start upgrades.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

[quote=dezzo]dont we all :) :tu:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Gotta love those marketing guys - making a decision (that looks like it was made) without technical input and then wondering why they have bad publicity :rolleyes:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Well it wasn't like they were just going to sit by and let ADSLMax take their customers.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

there would have been plenty of technical consultation.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

:rofl:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Marketing Guys - "Could we offer 10Meg to customers"
Technical Guys - Looking disgusted and wondering how stupid the marketing guys really are "Err"
Marketing Guys - "That wasn't a no! Lets get the press release out!"

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

So you was at the meeting too.

Good post by the way :tu:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

the technical guys would have advised on the risks and the marketing people would have driven the decision to go ahead anyway due to the product risk - ie. the product becoming no longer competitive.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Agreed apart from that last line, you assume it would have mattered if the tech guys had said no ;)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Looking back at the response here, we're either way too cynical or several of us have had a ton of grief in our technical jobs as a result of sales/marketing teams at some point.

Personally I probably fall in both categories :p:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Sounds a bit like most time & motion people at most companies, Crystal ball & egg timer springs to mind

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Ahh, the old time and motion guys. Here's how we used to do it at Royal Doulton:

We'd purposefully slow right down, inspecting each and every piece of clay before it went on the machines. Whenever we dropped a piece of clay, we'd go for a long walk to get the brush and pan. We'd make sure that every speck of clay was picked up and put in the recycling bins. Then we'd go and return the brush and pan. This would go on all day. They would then give us a rate for the job for each piece. We would then speed the process up, stick any old piece of clay on the machines, sweep up at the end of the shift with the brush and pan that we hid on the top of the dryers. Our rates would rocket. They would then be forced to stick us on an average rate - about £9 an hour and we'd slow right down again (why work fast when you get that kind of money?).
No wonder the place went down :rofl:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

umm its 27mbps not 33 so not even 3 people can be simultaneous.

---------- Post added at 22:28 ---------- Previous post was at 22:26 ----------

does that make it ok?

sorry but if marketing can get a go ahead when their isnt the means to provide it from a technical point of view it shows the company is a shambles for communication between its departments and leadership.

---------- Post added at 22:32 ---------- Previous post was at 22:28 ----------

Am I right that BT have been spending a while on their 21CN network and preparing exchanges for ADSLMax and also running trials for a while.

NTL just decide over a meeting with some biscuits and coffee, next thing we know their is 10meg configs been rolled out and the option added to the online package change screen.

Bit of a difference.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

...............Yeah, I think the desicion was snap made just like that too.........

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Ok, when did you first hear ntl were "defenitly" starting a 10meg broadband service? and did you ever have a defenite date.

How long before adsl max was launched did you first hear it was coming, BT made adslmax public in 2005, ntl had a long time to prepare for a faster product it wasnt like it hit them out of nowhere so saying they had to do something to stop their customers leaving isnt much of an excuse.

I also find it hard to believe how supplying someone with a service that runs at under 2meg in the evenings for 34.99 is going to stop them leaving.

I would be interested to be proven wrong, I remember in dec 2005, anyone on 10meg was considered to be on "the trial" or was there a previous proper trial, anyone on it feel free to speak up so we know ntl did do some kind of preparation for this product launch.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Took a look at adslguide and the adslmax has been bodged up even with their trials etc. :)

Not sure what is going on here tho, last 3 nights in a row I have been unable to achieve 10mbit no matter what time.

Earlier on I had 4mbit at 6.30ish so I thought something is better and was expecting full whack now, but speeds fluctuating from just 1mbit to 7mbit wildly mostly around the 3mbit mark.

dslzone speed
http://www.dslzoneuk.net/speedtest/t...ate=1144197588
http://www.dslzoneuk.net/speedtest/t...ate=1144197657

They didnt add my results to the ntl speed results database because below 50% so ntl's avg speed on their will be higher then it should.

and

1st 512K took 1578 ms = 324.5 KB/sec, approx 2674 Kbps, 2.61 Mbps
2nd 512K took 1688 ms = 303.3 KB/sec, approx 2499 Kbps, 2.44 Mbps
3rd 512K took 1453 ms = 352.4 KB/sec, approx 2904 Kbps, 2.84 Mbps
4th 512K took 2500 ms = 204.8 KB/sec, approx 1688 Kbps, 1.65 Mbps

Overall Average Speed = approx 2441 Kbps, 2.38 Mbps

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

what makes you think that? are people complaining of crap speeds?

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I think ntl have managed to do a superb bodging job. In fact they lead the field.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

To be honest I find this hard to believe, as I download at a full 10Meg speed for quite a few hours from newsgroups and must say the connection is rock solid.

Can anyone clarify what the maximum bandwidth a UBR can handle is please?

I find it hard to believe only 3 customers on the same UBR can download at the same time at full speed.

I have encountered no signs of traffic shaping, in fact my line has never been soo good since the Modem change!!! (Thanks Oven Chips!) :)

Well done NTL!
Thank You for a fantastic service!

But please please no Traffic Shaping!! ;)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Maybe a bit late, but while updating posts from ntls newgroups, I maxed out at 20 odd KBps on a 1Meg connexion, when its usually 120KBps. Also my downloads from P2P were around 3-4KBps at around 7PM so something is definately going on here.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

BBking can answer that one - pm him and ask him to come to this thread.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

They might as well launch an "Up to 100Mbps" service and just shape that down to 5Mbps or so.

The broadband speed levels don't really mean much if the ISP is going to throttle the speeds of various traffic.

It's like having a 10 lane motorway and allowing those driving BMWs and Audis (randomly selected) to use only the left hand lane, and everyone else has the full motorway.