Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I dont think it's appropriate for a march today after last weekends disgraceful activities. If they are going to march it should be a demo regarding their contempt for the extremism first as the violence and intimidation expressed by the nutter element is a lot more offensive and bad for their beliefs/religion than the cartoons.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Thread reopened. Off topic posts will be removed.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

It will be very interesting if they do march and then choose not to when the next atrocity takes place "in the name of islam"

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

ok i'll be nice.
why do they want to protest,no cartoons where published in this country.
it happened a couple of weeks ago.
why not just let it go, its history.
and if they must protest why don't they protest about how the muslims have behaved in other countries burning embassys national flags etc.
if they want to show the west there with us rather than against us shout out to the other muslims in the world that there wrong to do these things.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The cartoons were not published here in papers but were shown on a national news program briefly.
Does that mean that anyone that wants to protest should fly to the country that the problem is based in before they can be allowed to protest?
History causes more conflict than most other causes so saying it's history is not a good thing.
Many have voiced their condemnation for how some protestors have behaved, not all muslims are fanatics baying for blood. All religions/ nations have their idiots/ zealots/ racists/ fascists etc
Think you will find many muslims have spoken out against the behaviour of some of the protestors.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

may be so but let them show it now on placards at this march.placards that tell the rest of the muslim world that they where wrong to turn to violence about these cartoons.
perhaps then my feelings about muslims will change.
but whilst i see news reports showing demo's with placards with the words kill and behead on them,and see people wearing scarves to cover there faces and news reports showing muslims abroad carrying kalashnikov's.
please forgive me if i don't trust them.
i wonder how long it will be before these extremists start using guns over here.
and please don't tell me it won't happen,it may.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

By the way the march is backed by many Christian organisations (don't know which, but thats what it says on the BBC website) I do find this inetersting because its not now simply a case of Muslims organising this for muslims, but religious groups who feel similar in that they understand and realise the offence caused. I take it some of the people posting on this thread will now get irate at there local churches for backing such a demo.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Don't see why they should :confused:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

And no it doesnt bother me at all, if its peacfull, which is what it looks like, then good luck to them :)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I was just wondering if some of the 'muslim bashing' ive seen on this thread for wanting this march to go ahead, would now be extending to the christian groups that are ok with it too.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

People have been Christian bashing on here for years mate.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

yeah but at least there isnt a tone of racism when they do huh..........

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

That's the sort of thing that's always said and it really gets my goat.
Disagree with a minority and your then called a racist when you just don't agree.
Lets face facts life in the UK is good its relatively easy in comparison to other countries,The law is relatively easy to live with.
Answer this is it more offensive to upset a minority than say the obese or the irish? I would say no but the fat and the irish are mocked on a daily basis you dont see many of them marching in London whining about stuff.Its about time all minority groups realised just how good they got it in the UK

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Err, why bring race into the discussion? There *are* White, English muslims. I went out in a group with a with a White Muslim girl last night (Ok, so she was Turkish, but my comment still stands). Are these cartoons not an insult to these Muslims as well?

Regarding the original cartoons, well, I think those Muslims who have taken past in the violent protests (I have no problem with peaceful protest, apart from the inconveniance) have handled it very badly. Had they protested peacefully, the cartoons would have been forgotten with a couple of weeks. Thanks to the actions of a few, those cartoons will be remembered for a long time now, possibly years. I have to admit, I do wonder if those who protested violently (note: I am not inferring they are Muslim) just wanted a fight.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Hey Zinglebarb, Im not saying youre a racist because you disagree with the minority be they Irish, Black Chinese Asian, etc etc. What I am saying is that in many of the threads Ive read on tjhis forum, if there is any discussion about anything related to Muslims or Asains (irrespective of religion) theres always many comments post along the lines of If you dont like it you can go back to the middle east...your own country etc etc. Racial comments have been made irrespective of whether 'ur own country is in deed the UK'. Im not generalising all people in that same category, just some of the ones who do make racist statements or make statements with a racist undertone on these threads. I cannot believ that I am the only one who has picked up on this. If we compare an anti christian argument/viewpoint, the same can not be said.

I'd like to think what others think, because I honestly dont think Im the only one.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

If all religion was scrapped tomorrow the world would be a better place in my opinion!

Religion is said to be the cause of more deaths every year than anything else!

How sad is that! :dozey:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Or more accurately, how wrong is that.

Who is it who has 'said' that? Religion has not caused any more deaths than any other other interest/mindset but it's often used as an excuse.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I watched the protest on tv, and i have to say that i was impressed with it.
All the plaquards were provided by the organisers, and the ones that did take there own put them away when asked to do so. :tu: :clap:
A lot of the people there were also waving the union flag to show that they are British and proud to be so,
It just proves that almost all muslims are very peacefull people.:)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

What an utterly ridiculous comment.

They had no right to protest in London disrupting the City regarding the publication of some Cartoon's in Denmark, they also had no choice but to appear peaceful in there protests today after the way they behaved last time, the placquards they held and the hats the children wore were disgusting.

^^^^

This above was as ridiculous as your comment, those protesting today did not even represent 1% of the Muslims in the world, the same as those protesting last time, there is good and bad in all races, religions, and religions, to say this showed that most all muslims are peaceful is a joke, in the same way it's a joke to say what they did before showed them all to be barbaric.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I refuse to take the bait off a person who just wants to argue :Peaceman:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I dont want to argue, I just wish to point out the double standards in peoples posts, if one posted a ridiculous comment that was against the march people would jump on them claiming racism etc, yet if it's a ridiculous comment that is praising the march it's accepted as correct.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

:clap:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

As the resident racist here (tongue firmly in cheek)
I feel I must speak out.

The march seems to have passed wihtout incident, good.
I've no complaints.

However HAD it been a repeat of the scenes we have witnessed across the globe then I would be very narked with the muslim population in general.

Yes i know I shouldnt tar them all, but muslim leaders are allegedly in "control" of their section of society, then they need to act as if they are.

I really dont give a toss about someones skin colour, sex or really religion, I say really to religion because some I just dont get, but thats neither here nor there.
They leave me alone I'm happy to leave them alone, they help me I'm happy to help them, They cause me trouble I'm their worst nightmare.

This is not racism, this is called living.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I'm sorry, its just that the numbers dont add up, It was a peace march, all the hype before said it was going to be a riot sort of thing.
It didnt happen that way so some people are getting all annoyed.
Oh back to numbers, if .01% of muslims were extremists, i think we would know about it.
BTW i'm a white christian, who thinks that today proved that we shouldnt tar everybody with the same brush :)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I think the "If you dont like it go back to your own country" comment, would happen in their country/countries if white westerners went there to settle and started making demands.

I dont think its always intended to be racist, however it is often used by the liberals to class someone as racist for making such a comment. If you were a pub landlord for instance and someone came in and complained about something in your pub, you would be well within your rights to tell them to go somewhere else if they dont like it. It does however seem that the same common sense attitude is not accepted by some people.

I agree with the statement "If they dont like it go back to where they came from" there's nothing racist in my intention with that statement, its simply like saying "When in Rome do as the romans do". I have no double standard, as I would not expect to go into their country and make demands.

The UK is not a traditional muslim country, muslims (or other faiths) coming into this country should integrate with society whilst still keeping their beliefs/traditions. I think the whole problem is with these people trying to keep themselves as a seperate state within the UK.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

what i can't understand is why they have to have the muslim parliament of great britain.
to me its like taking the p*ss,using the name parliament.
its like when west indians called there kids enoch,to take the p*ss out of enoch powell.
why do they need a parliament if they want to integrate with the rest of the uk.we've already got a parliament.
and why the muslim council of great britain and the muslim association of great britain.

and as for the march wasn't it dreamt up and part organised by ken livingstone.
say no more.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I seem to recall they muslim council of great britain were trying to buy a building near Westminster to set up parliament a number of years ago.

I do smile when I hear reference to "muslim parliament of great britain" as we are discouraged from calling ourselves Great Britain, as the name Great Britain seems to be given a racist tag by the do-gooders.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I couldn't have put that better myself. I have long been narked at people getting uppity with the 'if you don't like it here go home' thing. I have said it many times here but I'll say it again.....some people here are British only because their passport says they are. Their hearts belong to the country that their forefathers came from....if they don't want to integrate and have a problem with the UK they should go back to the country that they want to turn this one into.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The thing is are muslims giving a platform to condem/speak out against violance? Often they are not, leading in the impression they are keeping quiet.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I take it you also object to the Anglican Synod and the British Council then?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by acoolwelshbloke
If all religion was scrapped tomorrow the world would be a better place in my opinion!

Religion is said to be the cause of more deaths every year than anything else!

How sad is that! :dozey:

That's a bizarre contradiction.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Why is it a contradiction?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

"Religion has not caused any more deaths than any other other interest/mindset but it's often used as an excuse."

It's a self contradictory statement.

The fact is that the original poster was entirely right.

History speaks for itself. The crusades, the Spanish inquisition, the holocaust, Rwanda, the Balkans, Iraq etc etc. Religion is bad news when it comes to costing lives.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

No it's not

For 'fact' read 'my opinion is'.

No, religion didn't cause any of those. Nowhere did any of the holy teachings of any of them say "go out and kill because I told you to". Religion was used as the excuse. For example there are gangs who take flicknives to football matches and kick seven bells in to each other.

Did football cause the fights?

No, it was used as the excuse. People will kill and fight no matter what - all they need is an excuse.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

If football/religion didn't exist, those specific fights wouldn't have occured, as they wouldn't have had the excuse ;)
It's a grey area.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Unlikely - these people tend to be those who'd hijack any bangwagon to justify their actions. If they hadn't found those specific ones then they'd have used another.

Politics has caused death and wars, should we do away with that? Power, greed, wealth, all other well-known causes of wars.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I am not here to fight with you but you really need to look at the facts.

By your own admission religion has been used as an excuse. Do away with religion and, bingo!, you do away with one of the most fundamental reasons (see "excuse") for the butchery and extermination of people who don't subscribe to a particular religious belief.

It's not rocket science and, in that context, I stand by my assertion that the original poster was right.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

It's up to you to think whatever you want - but if you seriously believe that if you'd removed religion from the equasion then these people would not have fought or killed then indeed, let's leave it there.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

With all due respect, yes, I do believe that to be the case.

What other reason, beyond a rationale prejudiced against the religion / religious beliefs of the jews, would have brought about the holocaust?

The crusades and the Spanish inquisition were carried out purely on religious grounds. What other ulterior motive was there for them to take place?

Rwanda & the Balkans. Socioeconomic conflicts based on religious beliefs.

There are currently 18 acknowledged significant religious conflicts ongoing in the world which, collectively, have accounted for many hundreds of thousands of deaths.

"Power, greed, wealth, all other well-known causes of wars". Indeed. And also rife in almost every religious practice throughout the globe.

Yes, lets leave it there.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Thank you.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

the inquisition was largely based around removing islam and the arab administration from the spanish peninsular. That's why eating ham is popular in Spain - as it proved you weren't 'one of them'

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

It's as I said in an earlier post really, religion gives the trouble makers a very large captive audience. If these masses of people were not drawn together by religion, and in the case of some religions "brainwashed" it would be another story. Religion can be a very powerful form of brainwashing, there is no other powerful form that can persuade someone to take their own life and the life of others so easily.

Removing religion would make it harder for the extreme element to find gullible recruits.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Fixed that for you ;)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Sorry I'm with Russ on this one..There are those who will because of their jealousy,greed or venality use any platform or activity to further their nasty small minded insular outlook on life and try to impose it on others.Some will do anything for a ruck and to cause dissension because it makes them feel better.Which it is why a few muslims,football supp..err....hooligans,poll tax rioters and so called animal activists will hijack any event to make themselves look more important than they really are.Is Bin Laiden really a prophet of the muslim world or a man who feels that he has been slighted by his vast family and really should be in charge of running his country and all Muslims?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I just saw a word used to describe the protest, yesterday - 'dignified' - from what I saw it was all that & more. :tu:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

More dignified than some of the protests in this thread no doubt ;)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The kinds of people who would start a fight over religion or football would start a fight anyway. They would just find another excuse if they didn't have football or religion.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

you are right! I know this bloke who has/did have videos of social unrest type things - poll tax riots and the like, and he was involved in the local footbal teams 'crew etc. You'd call round his place and he would say things like 'look at this bit again' and rewind it and so on

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

My point exactly! :tu:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

So you admit that religion and football cause fights? (although I don't think football has caused something like the crusades, or the inquisition, which was started in france to root out heretics like the cathars)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

its all about groups of people hanging about together really, when it comes down to it. Anything that is not the group becomes the agressor and enemy by default

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Islam for you. One of a few cults (the other main one being Catholicism) where the leader is dead. Possibly never to have even existed. Interesting that the keystones of civilisation should be our greatest weaknesses. Makes you wonder where and when it will all end.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

It's funny how there is so much Muslim discontent with these cartoons as they are 'offensive', when the representatives of this religion (MCB) frequently say that homosexuality 'should not be accepted' and is 'harmful to society'. But of course, that is totally acceptable :rolleyes:. Double standards again.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I'm not saying I agree with this but I think the difference is that the cartoons were viewed by Muslims as directly mocking them. With what their faith says about homosexuality, it may be offensive to those it affects but is not regarded as 'mocking' them.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Yes, I would, because they'd be protesting about something they didn't understand.

I do not believe that your average western christian can understand such fanatical devotion to someone long dead. The christian church gave up on that hundreds of years ago.

Similarly, the church 'leaders' in the christian church are no longer in the positions of power they once were - again, something that changed hundreds of years ago.

Therefore, a protest by those churches in support of Muslims is inappropriate. I know they mean well, because they want to show solidarity, but marching against free speech isn't the way to go.

---------- Post added at 08:36 ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 ----------

Maybe because christianity transcends any notion of race?

---------- Post added at 08:38 ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 ----------

I reckon it's religion that has caused more conflict than any other cause. Just look around you...

---------- Post added at 08:49 ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 ----------

And some people here are not British at all, yet they live and work here as if they were. You'd never notice they weren't British, they'll even cheer for England in the World Cup (OK, maybe not when their birth nation is on the pitch.)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Islam too. Hence worldwide you see muslims of every colour/race, white, black, brown, asian, american, ehnglish, scottish, welsh, chinese etc etc etc

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The problem is the media over here gives the impression that the islamic world is upset over a cartoon of mohammed with a bomb in his turban (not that mohammed would have worn a turban...)
This gives the impression that he islamic world are making a mountain out of a molehill, after all, how can such a cartoon like that be truly offensive?

When in actuallity, Danish muslims have put together their own "dodgy dossier" and taken it to the middle east, which includes the published cartoons, but also includes some far more offensive images along with alot of other anti-islamic properganda.

Think of the reaction like this:
A dossier of images mocking jesus is released, it contains pictures of jesus copulating with a goat, and also that well known image of the jesus action figure.
Christians get understandably offended at the obscene images included, not hugely offended by the action figure.
The media reports that the christians are offended by the action figure and don't mention the goat images.
Non-christians fail to understand what all the fuss is about.

---------- Post added at 09:47 ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 ----------

What of the Oma though?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

By Oma, do you mean the muslim Ummah. The term/phrase Ummah refers to the collection of muslims worlwide. So if someone speaks of the Muslim Ummah they are referring to all the muslims of the time, irregardless of their race. You can also refer to an Ummah from a specific time and place, eg) the British Ummah or the Ummah at the time of the Prophet.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

So why do you suggest that any criticism of Muslims is de facto racism?

I know that the argument of "if they don't like it they can go back home" is not very good - as you have said, for many Muslims in the UK this is home. I think to assume that anyone uttering something along these lines is intrinsically racist, is - of itself - a prejudice.

However, I do believe that if 'they' don't like it, then they are free to leave the UK and find another country where they'll like it better. In this case, whether it's immigrants going 'back' or UK natives choosing to go to the country of their family's origin - then that should be their right and their choice.

But equally, since they have the right to live in the UK and chose to do so, then I suggest the sooner they start accepting that the UK is different to the country of their birth or heritage, the better.

As someone said; "When in Rome, do as the Romans" - that means finding out about the place and then aiming to adapt your own lifestyle to fit in - rather than demand any kind of accomodation.

And that applies to immigrants and their UK born offspring, equally. Whatever their race or creed.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

In my opinion most muslims like living in the UK. Most muslims living in the UK also abide by the laws and regualtions of the UK. Showing displeasure at something against our religion does not mean we are unhappy with living in the UK (and again Im talking about legal peaceful organised demos). I just feel that whenever muslims in the UK show their displeasure at anything, the go back to your own country argument is used without any thought or relevance, and its an argument applied at a blanket level as such.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The trouble is though, when muslims do show protest, its usually against something we cherish, or a cornerstone of Britain. In this case, freedom of speech. What muslims are calling for is that Islam should be treated like it is in an Arab theocracy. I should be able to criticise whatever or whoever I like. That isn't the same as incitement to hatred. What's next, I can't criticise Arsenal because it might incite Arsenal fans? The cartoons were offensive, but they were a valid criticism of Islam from the artists' point of view.

Muslims aren't trying to stop incitement to hatred, they want to stop all criticism of Islam or its components. I'll give you another example. There are some things that Mohammed got up to (documented), that people don't like to hear about, but I can't say because it would be incitement to hatred. Hmmm. And this is documented truth we are talking about.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

**And there for the first time we see the point at which a giant misunderstanding has taken place.At this point enter us non muslims having been unaware up until now of the history of these cartoons and misunderstanding, think that the muslim world is protesting against free speech.**

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Punky, its not freedom of speech the muslims have been protesting against and I thought this has been pretty clear. Every single muslim Ive spoken to regarding this is infavour of freedom of speech. What we are saying is that with freedom of speech comes a responsibility not to offend. We are protesting against what we feel is a great insult to our prophet, a man we hold in the utmost regard. The fact that these cartoons were published on national media all over Europe added to the sentiments that this is seen as a blatant insult on the most important person to muslimns all over the world, mocking our religion. Its this irresponsibility and insult that most muslims I know are complaining out, not OUR right to freedom of speech.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Hmmm sounds like your all for freedom of speach but only when it suites you!

you say your for freedom of speech but only if its what you want to hear?

If someone says something that you do not agree with or offends you, they should still be allowed to say it! That is freedom of speach!

They may have a responsibility not to offend you or me but if you want something in this case freedom of speach then you have to take the bad with the good.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

You aren't answering my point, you just repeating the usual Muslim line.

If I am not allowed to criticise Mohammed because that counts as incitement to hatred, then what next? I can't criticise Arsenal because it might incite Arsenal fans? Can't criticise the government because it might incite Labour supporters? Can't criticise Martin Luther King because it might incite black people? Where's our freedom of speech then? If I was a Muslim I wouldn't be uttering "the official line", because its insulting against Muslims. It makes them seem like they are so incitable about anything to do with their religion. It does work both ways so Muslims are free to criticise who they like. This what forms a debate which is a cornerstone of western culture.

To you and other Muslims, Mohammed is a prophet and highly revered. You aren't allowed to criticise him. That's fine. I wholeheartedly support that. However, to non-Muslims, Mohammed is just a character in an ancient book, and they are free to criticism him should they choose to.

And when Muslims say "I am not against freedom of speech, but..." I generally feel like that are following the same rule as when people say "I'm not racist, but...".

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

hmm, seems to me that the 'problem' here is a lack of empathy/understanding. I totally agree with the principle of free speech, but, I am also just as keen on the principle of respect. Having the right to free speech shouldn't mean it is is ok to upset & insult people.

- personally I was previously unaware of the feelings of Muslims about images of the Prophet, but, now I do know I would not dream of publishing such an image.

It seems simple enough, we agree not to upset our Islamic neighbours with such material in the future, we all shake hands & move on.

For anyone who feels that is 'giving in', I think it would be as much a victory for mutual respect, as it might be a defeat for free speech.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

That cuts both ways.
Actually, yes it does.

That doesn't mean that we have to go out of our way to insult, but that equally applies to the 'injured' party not going out of their way to be 'aggrieved'.

The whole point about FoS is that we can choose whether we wish to be sensitive to someone's sensibilities, or whether we choose to ignore this to make a statement. If we have to consider whether that risks a death-threat, then the 'freedom' is lost.
Fine, if they'll agree to ensure that the extremist element in the UK is routed. But then they'd have to break their own 'code' of not handing a Muslim over to non-Muslims.

While Islam places itself before community/country/family we can never be sure whether our Islamic neighbours are neighbours or whether they'll be Muslims first and foremost.
There can be no 'victory for mutual respect' until there is mutual respect. It can't be a unilateral decision.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I appreciate what you say Gaz, but there is a big difference between criticising someone (saying I am too greedy, for example), and being insulting (calling me an a******e)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

that is my point, though, previously I was unaware that a caricature of the prophet was so deeply insulting to the Islamic faith and probably wouldn't think twice about publishing it - but now I do know, then it would be wrong.

Imagine being with a bunch of people & someone makes a joke about a disability, then one of the group says 'my brother/sister etc has that' - would you continue to mock that minority, or should you say 'sorry mate, didn't realise, I didn't mean to offend' and not mention it again??

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Charicaturing Mohammed is wrong - if you are Muslim. If you aren't Muslim then you aren't bound by the same rules and laws.

With regards to your example, I wouldn't say that counts as criticism, its a joke at their expense. That vaguely does come under insults. The reason the cartoons were created wasn't a joke at Muslim's expense, it was proof that Islam is the only religion you can't even comment on, let alone criticise.

There are two valid criticisms. The first being terrorism's association with Islam (bomb in the turban), and second for overly dictatorial approach to how Islam is viewed by non-Muslims.

All criticism is insulting to a degree because when you criticise you are commenting on the least desireable parts of people (i.e. greed, or violence). That means we can't criticise anyone anymore?

Jokes at people's expense aside, freedom to criticise is a non-negoiatible part of freedom of speech.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I agree with that, I think that we are lucky the Islamic community here were more inclined to react as they did on Saturday, rather than the scenes earlier in the week, but in general I think the confontational placard waving, 'death to' chanting & flag burning is seen too often as a response to any implied slur on Islam - to the point it is difficult for an observer to have a perspective on the severity of the problem.

---------- Post added at 14:05 ---------- Previous post was at 13:53 ----------

Yes I agree they weren't originally created as an insult, but I'm not sure that the feeling of Muslims were known when they were re-published, as, if they were, then the act of re-publishing could be taken as insulting & confrontational? Thats what I am trying to say, that a joke can be funny in the abstract, even at the expense of a minority, but if you know it will actually cause offence & be taken as an insult, then you should be more wary of the implications??

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Not really - they'd both be an opinion.

Among friends, the banter can at times be extremely derogatory and insulting - apparently, but the people concerned do not seem to betroubled by it.
Should we henceforth prosecute anyone who calls someone an a******e because it is insulting?

According to you, criticism would be ok, but insult wouldn't.

So why is the 'criticism' in the cartoons (i.e. that Muslims permit/encourage terrorism in the name of Islam) now suddenly an insult? Oh, because the people being criticised have decided to be insulted - I guess it avoids having to face the criticism...

Of the cartoons, only 3 were IMHO in any good in that they did satirise, rather than simply insult:

1) Image of 2 women in black veils - letterbox slot for eyes, showing their eyes. Between then, an armed, bearded man who looks like trouble - his eyes cover with the typical black letterbox slot across the eyes - what they use in magazines to hide the identity.
So this one actually doesn't identify anyone - the artist obviously did show sensitivity to Islamic sensibilities - or so he thought...

2) Cloud with gate, imam type looking bloke shouting at a line of suicide bombers to inform them that the everafter was 'running out of virgins'. That one is hilarious. Does it identify Muhammed or is it just a comment on the obnoxious kind of lies perpetrated in the name of Islam that cause people to carry out these heinous acts?
IF the Koran or anything DOES promise anything like this, can Muslims not see how this demonises Islam? "Yeah, strap a bomb to yourself, and you'll also get to rape young girls in heaven."

3) The image of the bearded man with bomb-shaped turban. Again, another visual metaphor for the image that Islam has acquired. The religion that believes in violent expression. Where people are driven, by other people to perform acts of murder in the name of Islam. Where prophet and bombs have become synonymous.
IF the turban had not looked like a bomb, would it have been any more or less insulting?

As someone has pointed out, the rules forbidding images of Muhammed/Allah apply to Muslims ONLY. Just like the customs and rules of other religions ONLY apply to them. So a Jew won't eat pork? More for us christians then.

That's the way a free society works. Live and let live.

---------- Post added at 14:20 ---------- Previous post was at 14:16 ----------

That's exactly like the cartoon issue.

A joke is a joke, nothing more. Even ones in bad taste can be funny. If someone then chooses to express offence (i.e. reminding everyone how they've got family suffering...) it forces the other person to retract. NOT because they no longer find the joke funny, but because they have to choose whether to continue to exercise their FoS or to conform to thje social norm.

BTW, in your example the offended party merely points out where the offence was caused. I don't think they held a protest rally the following day...

---------- Post added at 14:32 ---------- Previous post was at 14:20 ----------

The re-publishing WAS confrontational. It was designed to confront the notion that maybe FoS could be 'limited' in some cases - e.g. Islam.

And instead of realising that the reaction over the initial publication was inappropriate - the reactions following re-publication were, if anything, more extreme.

Yes, the editors knew exactly what they were doing, but did the protesting Muslims? Did they realise that by asking for restrictions on publication that they were attacking FoS? Did they realise that by their violent expressions only validated the cartoons and hence their publication?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

you make some very good points, however I must ask if, as an example, you had invited a friend for a meal, who happens to be Jewish, would you serve everyone else at the meal with pork, and give your Jewish guest something else, or would you be sensitive to his beliefs and serve everyone with a suitable compromise?

- in the same vein, while agreeing we are not bound by Muslim beliefs, that doesn't mean we shouldn't respect them, at least to the point where we avoid being insulting.

As I said before, I wasn't previously aware of the depth of feeling such imagery invokes, something we find difficult to understand in our culture, as we have been so used to the idea of cartoons as satirical social & political comment (Punch, Private Eye etc).

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

SWW, re your numbered points above. The fact is that they (the pictures) are portraying those characters to be Muhammed and this has been explicitly stated, that the cartoons are of the prophet Muhammed(unless ive totally missed something). Most muslims would have just laughed the cartoons off if, like its been said they are just satiricising (sp) Islam. I for one wouldnt have been offended if they were in this coptext (i.e a generalisation as opposed to specific to the Prophet).
You make an interesting point about the bomb shaped turban. Without it we would have had no where near the level of protest we've had today, even if the person in the cartoon was wearing a I am the prophet Muhammed teeshirt on. Its the whole, The Prophet is a terrorist/demonising the prophet thing was has caused the uproar.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Actually where the insult begins was not when the cartoons were first published which could have been dismissed as merely lack of knowledge but the continued and sustained republishing and posting of the cartoons.

If you use homey's analagy of the person making fun of people with a disabilty and one of his friends points out that a family member has that disability, then for that person to continue to make fun out of people with the condition is gone beyond ignorance and mickey taking and has become something entirely nasty with the chance of some real trouble starting.

So to continue to post the cartoons once we have the understanding of the matter can be viewed as an attempt to really push at the bounderies of common sense into the area of sheer bluddy mindeness.It's very much a case of "in yer face matey" then is it not?If you push someone's buttons long enough what can you expect? :shrug:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Either - does it matter? I wouldn't force a Jewish person to eat pork, nor would I deny it anyone else.

As you point out, the problem can be solved in more than one way. Each solution changes the situation and affects the other people around the table differently. Why should I prefer to pick the solution that effectively forces everyone else to conform to this individual's beliefs?
I could equally offer a buffet with a dozen choices so that no-one has to feel that they are being limited in their choice or that any one person has to feel as if they've forced some kind of compromise.

Each to their own, live and let live.

---------- Post added at 14:52 ---------- Previous post was at 14:45 ----------

The point is, the cartoons are NOT saying 'the Prohet is a terrorist' - the message is more 'terrorism is part of Islam' - the image of the prophet being the metaphor for Islam.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

On the contrary, Mohammed personally led acts of aggression against his neighbours in the early years of Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam#Muhammad

Like it or not, the founder of this faith advocated force as a means of achieving the aims of the religion.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Plus the extortion of protection monies !!! :shocked:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

On the bus ride home tonight I saw a wall spraypainted with 'KILL DANES' :(

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

".....proof that Islam is the only religion you can't even comment on, let alone criticise."

Somehow I think the catholic church, Dan Brown and Corgi's lawyers might disagree with that.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I thought that was a county in Ireland :spin:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

We aren't talking friends here, so you are taking my point entirely out of context.

Calling someone an a******e isn't a valid criticism. If they are rude, which makes them an a******e then calling them rude would be a criticism.

-----------------

Of course the cartoons were confrontational, as they were supposed to be. They were supposed to confront the aspects of Islam they wanted to criticise.

People shouldn't be too scared to confront parts of Islam they want to criticise, because of the reaction. That's precisely why they wanted to criticise their holier-than-thou position.

-----------------

And I think Rushie might disagree with that too. Theo Van Gogh might too if you could get hold of a medium. Brown doesn't have a death sentence on his head does he?

-----------------

With respect Incog, you're missing the point i'm trying to make. The reason why they were reprinted wasn't to insult Muslims, they were to prove the criticism carried weight. If Muslims couldn't give a monkey's to the cartoons, then that would disprove the criticism. The fact they reacted precisely how th newspaper thought they would, shows that the newspaper had a point.

It comes down to a simple point: Do you think they Muslims were right to be insulted. You and Homer agree there were right. That's fine. I don't agree. I think its very wrong of them. I'm Christian, and you could say anything you like about Christianity, I really couldn't give a monkey's. Everyone I have asked about this (7-10 people who are commited Christian) have agreed. IMO its a problem with Islam, not a problem with freedom of speech.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

,

I do see your point, but I must admit I am basing my opinion on the reaction in the UK, rather than the rest of the world. So far, I have seen one small scale, but very nasty, demonstration & a larger peaceful protest which sought to distance British Muslims from the calls to violence, while at the same time expressing the hurt they felt at the perceived insult to their faith.

I agree that the more extreme reactions are OTT, I said in an earlier post that I deplore the stereotype image of a hate spewing, flag burning fanatic. I can see what you mean about the motive for re-publishing the cartoons, but to be honest if someone says 'if you poke that bear with a stick he will attack you' - would you still go ahead & poke it with a stick, just to prove the point?

So, I'm glad the British Muslims showed they are capable of rising above the stereotype, and I hope we can move on & re-establish our mutual respect.

As for the rest of the world, I really don't know, I just hope there are some people there as sensible as the dignified spokespersons at Saturdays march, who can try to calm people down.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

To do it once maybe punky.Twice perhaps.Three times plus seems like overkill to me and was a definite attempt to get precisely the reaction they got..

I got your point just fine I just don't think it is a valid one. :erm:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

If you say so however you still think valid criticism is an unacceptable insult/incitement to religious hatred, I give up.

I would hope that everyone here would know me well enough to know what I don't insult them or incite hatred, but its Europeans' legally protected right to criticise whoever they like. I don't think Islam should be exempt from criticism because the Koran or Mohammed said so, or as you say, exempt the third time either.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

"Everyone I have asked about this (7-10 people who are commited Christian) have agreed. IMO its a problem with Islam, not a problem with freedom of speech."

Hardly the best "sample" of society to get a reasoned or well formulated interpretation of how practitioners of another religion might feel insulted by a lampooning of their God. Not a dig at christians, simply an observation that a more culturally diverse sample base would most probably have resulted in a different outcome.

In my opinion these cartoons are in no way a "criticism" of Islam. Anyone who can interpret them as a criticism is simply fooling themselves and excusing irresponsible actions on the part of (sales led) media outlets. There is nothing critique based about them, nor has anyone involved in their creation cited "criticism" as the basis for their creation. They were designed to cause offence / poke fun and that is exactly what they did - in spades.

Those who are better placed than I to understand the current mindset of muslims (both moderate and fundamental) have cited these cartoons as the last straw as far as the muslim religion and its current stigmatism is concerned. I don't subscribe to this theory of "Oh, lets print a few cartoons to prove they're all nutters" that some people are peddling. In light of some of the atrocities that have been carried out to date "in the name of Islam" I think there is more than substantial proof of a small hardcore of "nutters" - I really don't require any more proof - thanks all the same mr international newspaper publisher man.

As someone who has lived through 30 years of a religious based war of attrition of bombings, shootings and murderers visiting in the night I can tell you this - NO religious based war is right and any right thinking human being should do all in their power to prevent them rather than fanning the flames of what ignites them - be that in the guise of freedom of speech or whatever. Religious wars and intolerance are based and founded on the teachings of individuals or deitys whose existence or divine proximity to a God no one can definitively prove. Those of us who subscribe to any religion do so on the basis of faith - I respect everyones right to express their faith, it is a fundamental human right. What never ceases to amaze me though is our lack of faith in our fellow man.

Perhaps if we spent a bit more time expending faith and goodwill to "tangible entities" like our neighbours, the "black guy down the road", "the white kid on the corner" or the "indian single parent round the corner" then we would be reciprocated in a fashion that is more becoming of a civilized society.

Two wrongs don't make a right, an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. Cliches, I know, but sadly very true.

I think everyone should step back from this and reflect for a minute. Is it worth the loss of a single life just to print a cartoon? Does anyone want to see multiple 7/7's happening on a regular basis? Do honest hard working muslims want to spend an eternity thinking "Do they secretly think I'm a terrorist"? I think the answer is no.

We lost over 3000 lives here in Northern Ireland, and many lives were lost elsewhere, through one or other of the two main religious groupings over here citing "freedom of speech", "human rights", the right to "self determination" or "go back to where you came from" rhetoric. This s**t costs LIVES - real human being lives, families.

We can debate all we want on an internet discussion board but our actions beyond this safe environment will shape the future of intercultural relationships throughout the UK and beyond.

I have no vested interest in the political leanings of anyone on this board but I think our troubles here in Northern Ireland were best summed up with the statement that we needed to "disarm the mindset". This was a profound statement and, to this day, rings true and effective in the continued relative peace we have over here (I have managed to raise three wonderful young sons who have never heard a bomb go off or a weapon discharged - and for that I am eternally grateful).

This may seem consequentially small to many readers of this post but it means the world to me.

You do not want to suffer what we suffered. It benefits no one and, as has been the case here in Northern Ireland, after the fact everyone will sit back, draw a deep breath and try to gauge the worth of a war. No one I know thinks that anything good came out of those 30 years. We are now only nearly at a stage of mutual religious respect & tolerance that most countries achieved in the middle ages.

To see the potential for the UK / Europe to show that they have learnt nothing from our intolerance for each other is both disappointing and worrying to say the least.

Peace out.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Valid criticism is perfectly acceptable but when your valid criticism actually offends against someone's deep seated beliefs then you just have to accept that they are going to be rather upset.Yes let's discuss the rights and wrongs in the behaviour of varying faiths and religions but do we have to do it in the very way that continues to offend?Surely we can discuss about why some muslims turn to terrorism without repeatedly doing the one thing over and over and over and over just because you can as part of your right to freely express yourself.

Freedom of expression as you see it, is the BNP's right to continually incite racism in that case.There has to be a point at which you stop offending deliberately or you will incite hatred.It is only common sense.

I actually do believe in freedom of expression but not in the right to say and do offensive stuff just to get a rise out of a particular group.Frankly I think incitement against religious groups is as offensive as incitement against racial groupings.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I never said it was a MORI poll. I just said what I know. You're welcome to put as much, or as little store by it as you wish, but don't mock me because of it.

Other than that, good post.

Stepping away from the cartoons. Put them into words. Mohammed represents Islam, the bomb represents terrorism, and the combination of Mohammed and the bomb represents the link between the two. The picture merely says that Islam has a problem with terrorism. Hardly a startling revelation when we have videos of people being beheaded, 9/11 and bombings. Muslims are saying its incitement to religious hatred. Why? Many people, including Islam, have said that Islam suffers from a minority who commite terrorism under the banner of Islam. You put it into a picture, and suddenly there are riots all over the world.

They wern't designed to cause offence, but they were commissioned after an Islamic children's author who wrote works based on Mohammed couldn't get illustrations of Mohammed for fear of violent reprisals. The cartoons were commissioned to remind Muslims that freedom of speech protects valid criticism or anything, be it Islam, Christian, or even Bush/Blair, and that people should never be forced, under threat of violence to exercise their legally protected right.

---------- Post added at 01:03 ---------- Previous post was at 00:56 ----------

We aren't offending deep seated beliefs though. Pictures of Mohammed are prohibited under Islamic law. Muslims are offended because non-Muslims are failing to adhere to Islamic law.

I perfectly accept that criticism could lead to people being upset. You have the right to call me ignorant. I have the right to be upset, or not upset. However, you shouldn't be too afraid to use that right because you think i'll come and stab you.

I'm not trying to criticise Islam, which is how I think I am starting to come across. I have the utmost respect for Islam as well as everyone elses religion, as I wish people would have respect for mine. However, I see a world where people are too afraid to use their human rights because of fear of violent reprisals, and I find that extremely worrying.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

you are not coming across as unreasonable, at all, I wanted to thank you earlier for discussing this so reasonably, but thought it sounded patronising, so i didn't.

I think your final comment transcends this particular problem, though, the implication that there are numerous other squabbles that can turn into major rows is, indeed, scarey :erm:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

For the umpteenth time!
The offensive images are not those of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban (why oh why would an arab muslim be wearing a turban anyway?) but images of a French pig squealing contentstant (dressed as a pig) with the caption "Here is the true face of Muhammad" another showing a muslim being mounted as he prays, and another image portraying Muhammad as a demonic paedophile (none of these images were published by the Danish newspaper).

Those images I can understand offending people.
The outrage from the middle east becomes more understandable when you take into account the way these images (along with the 12 that were published) are introduced to people, within a dossier which also states that dane's are infidels, there's a ban on the building of mosques and the claim that Islam is not officially recognised, along with other right wing anti-islamic properganda portrayed as the official line.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jylland...ammad_cartoons


What the Islamic community should be doing right now is thinking long and hard as to why some non-muslims view Mohammad and Islam in such a negative way.

When people think of christians, they tend to think of nice people who'll smile and say they'll pray for you if they hear you're not well
When people think of buddists, they tend to think of peaceful monks dressed in orange
When people think of Sikhs, they think of honour and the help they gave us in WW2
When people think of muslims, well, a lot of the great unwashed think of them as flag burning extremists who want to wipe out the west. Is that what Muslims want people to think of them?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Gosh that's a difficult one !!!

(Some hints to assist you:

1. 9/11
2. 7/7
3. Videoed beheadings
4. Flag burning
5. Crowds chanting death to infidels (that's us btw)
6. Violent origins
7. Extorting protection money

:dozey:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

All the above are examples of terrorist activities carried out by muslims in the name of Islam. The one thing that is obvious in all these examples is "If we dont get our way we will use violence against innocent people"

We are constantly being told in this thread that we should not label all muslims the same, that is something that I agree with entirely. On the other hand however we see some muslims labelling all of the west as bad, have we heard them say only some westerners are bad?

These muslim terrorists have targeted the general public with the terrorist actions, and any criticism of them will result in more of the same. The people who want us to apologise and brush it all under the carpet are looking at a solution that will give more power to the terrorists. I appreciate the west may of upset the whole nation of Islam with these cartoons etc, but apologising will be a moral victory for the terrorists.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I had intended / hoped that my previous post on this matter would also have been my last. Unfortunately I see that there are still people resorting to xenophobic lists of atrocities and half truths in order to "prove" their point. Are you sure, proof positive, that the same levels of vitriol couldn't be pointed at you and your nation / religion if someone was minded to do so?

Apologizing will not give "more power to the terroirists". It would, in fact, remove a lot, if not all, of the impetus of their argument and any so called "retaliatory" strikes they might be planning, had you thought of that?

As for "some muslims labelling all of the west as bad" I think it's worth noting that atrocities committed to date appear to have occured only in countries / sovereign states who have actively engaged in a war on Islam in either Afghanistan or Iraq. My earlier point of two wrongs not making a right refers.

I find it bizarre that anyone would put the purported awarding of a "moral victory" ahead of peoples lives, truly bizarre.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I would be glad if you could point out the 'half truths'. :erm:

I really don't see that. Apologising would be an admission of wrong doing. The culture of the west allows for critique or satirising almost any subject on earth. The muslim community here should understand that and tolerate it even if they don't like it. Plus I really feel the Muslim nutters would capitalise on any 'back down' by pushing the limits of what they can do to us even further.

Again I don't recall Denmark involved in hostilities against Afghanistan or Iraq. The only lives at risk are put at risk by the activities of the nutter element. :(

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

By half truths I was referring to wikipedia - an online encyclopedia "edited by anyone".

No one has anything to lose by apologizing - this isn't a macho exercise. Believe me, it's a lot easier not having to deal with "what if" after the fact.

Denmark is the only Scandanavian country to throw it's full weight, both in the form of troops and diplomatic backing, behind the US led occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I think that's a little unfair. Some research last year found that Wikipedia stands up very well against Encyclopaedia Britannica for accuracy in its science entries.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4530930.stm

Yes, I know it was a study only of science categories , but I see no reason why if it so good in one area, it should suddenly vary so wildly as to deserve the accusation 'half truth', especially when you offer no evidence for the accusation.

The fact that it is editable by anyone is, potentially, a strength rather than a weakness. Especially since they have tightened up their editorial review process.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I find it bizzare that lives are lost over such trivial matters, I think it's about time Islam dragged its way into modern times instead of acting like some barbaric bunch of heathens who kill, threat to kill or stamp their feet we dont agree.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The Catholic church was very measured in it's opposition to the Da Vinci Code. In any case, the argument was more about inaccuracies in the book vs. reality, rather than anyone worrying about a conspiracy being exposed.

I don't recall any mass protests, let alone violent ones. I don't recall any calls for the book to be banned or the author to be killed. There were no attacks on embassies or innocent people in no way connected with the book.

---------- Post added at 15:03 ---------- Previous post was at 15:00 ----------

Not at all. The re-publications were to assert the freedom of speech in the face of Islamic opposition.

Yes, it got a predictable reaction, but only one that showed the failure of Muslims to understand what FoS means in free, liberal democratic societies.

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:03 ----------

What they should be wondering is in whose interest it is to stir up this mess.

Is it the Danish right-wing, or someone else? Could there be a faction of Muslims who just saw an opportunity to sow hatred? Maybe start a global Jihad?

---------- Post added at 15:15 ---------- Previous post was at 15:12 ----------

No, the other cartoons were never published here, as they wouldn't have been. And they are designed to cause maximum offense to Muslims. As are all the other 'allegations' against Denmark.

To my way of thinking, to create maximum offense requires intimate knowledge of how to offend. Who would know better than a Muslim...

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I keep thinking what would happen if I were to print a cartoon of a catholic priest raping a young boy!

The cartoon would certainly offend catholics, but as well as the offence I would think they would be embarassed because of the covering up and in latter days, charges being brought for such offences by members of the church. The big difference is that the majority of catholics would not dispute that it has happened, but would feel ashamed that it was unfortunately a part of the ccatholic church. I dont think somehow they would go on a rampage because someone had stated the obvious.

PS. I am not trying to offend any catholics, I just used it because its an example that is treated differently by its followers.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Hence, an obvious target for this action.

So not likely to come from within...

---------- Post added at 15:25 ---------- Previous post was at 15:19 ----------

Apart from it exceeding the bounds of public decency, I agree it would more likely cause extreme embarrasment.

The thing is, if you did get away with publishing a cartoon that hinted at that specific issue, you would actually be correctly voicing a concern about a real issue. So if kept within bound of decency, I would argue such a cartoon entirely valid.

Sure, there'd be those that would complain - but as has been said before, no death threats, no violent protest, no destruction of property, no world-wide mayhem. So, go ahead. Publish and be damned.