Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Bury it a kilometre down in a part of the country with nice, stable geology so it doesn't leak out again.

I was surprised to hear on the radio last night that the total quantity of nuclear waste we have generated so far could fill the Albert Hall five times. That is not a lot when you consider the number of years we've been at it and the amount of electricity that has been generated from it.

Apparently a 'geological disposal' site would require up to 50 years to complete and move the waste into, but at least then it would be there to receive the next generation of waste also.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

it's not the size that matters - it's the potency of this waste that counts - i.e. if it gets into the eco system what damage it is capable of? I dont pretend to have any knowledge on this subject but have plenty of questions! how thick would the concrete need to be that would have to encase this waste? how probable would it be that the encasing would fail and how likely would it be the waste enters the eco system? what damage is it capable of? 5 times the albert hall sounds scary to me.

why would a disposal site take 50 years to complete and move the waste into? what is the total cost of this disposal project?

give me the wind farms and wave farms and solar panels anyday over this ****. we should be looking at replacing and/or suplementing central heating systems with government sponsored solar panels and neighboorhood mini wind turbines. businesses - factories and the like should be 'forced' via financial incentives to install wind turbines.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

IMO those gigantic windmill affairs are a blot on the landscape :(

I say go nuclear, the only downside I see is the waste. Couldn't we blast it off into the sun and increase its time a little ?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

too risky to blast it off into space in case it crashes (e.g. shuttle crash) and also the cost of blasting it off to another world probably burns too much energy! also if we send it to another world, the aliens who live there might blast it back at us or sue us for compo. most likely the compo option.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I did consider the safety / crash aspect, but considered, as they are usually cast in glass, this a quite minor risk. I was thinking a cheap basic ICBM launcher straight at *our* sun (so no compo there I suppose). Dunno about the energy usage but I believe the used nuclear rods are quite small so reckon maybe a years worth on one launch. Just an idea.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Hardly the most attractive of things in the world, exactly who would like one of these things building near their house?

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2005/11/1.jpg

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

The whole NIMBY argument is a red herring. Nobody wants major industrial development on their doorstep, but we put up with it ...

I think the solution is clear; new nuclear power stations should be built on the sites of existing ones as far as possible, as the power grid infrastructure is already there and the landscape is already blotted.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Stark warning over climate change

The world is likely to suffer a temperature rise of more than 3C, says the UK government's chief scientist.

Tony Blair wants a global consensus on stabilising greenhouse gas emissions, blamed for climate change. The government shares the EU's 2C limit.

The US refuses to cut emissions and those of India and China are rising.


The government report says a 3C rise would cause:
A drop worldwide of between 20 and 400 million tonnes in cereal crops
About 400 million more people at risk of hunger
Between 1.2bn and 3bn more people at risk of water stress

This is getting serious

BBC Science - Nature

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

That it is

The last paragraph made me laugh

"President Bush's chief climate adviser, James Connaughton, said he did not believe anyone could forecast a safe level and cutting greenhouse gas emissions could harm the world economy. "

---------- Post added at 05:39 ---------- Previous post was at 05:37 ----------

They should just find a cheap, but safe (if possible) method of sticking it all in containers and throwing it into space, like, at the sun
At least it'd get disposed of ;)

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Knowing our luck Adam it would explode on the launch pad and contaminate us all.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Well, Connaughton has a point. What is the point of reducing something when you may not need to, only to find it is detrimental in other ways?

As for sending the waste into space, it's probably not the best idea. What if it hits a meteorite or something? Or ends up coming back into our gravitational field? In fact, lets just assume there is another civilzation on a planet comewhere, and one day a load of nuclear waste comes crashing down on their planet... how would we feel if the reverse happened and someone else's waste landed on earth?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

We'd need superman to do that, I saw it on telly :P

They've been looking into using remote areas of Australia, to the delight of the Australian priminister because of the revenue it would bring in, and the disgust of the Australian population because of the hysteria over nuclear waste.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Ah, good old statisitics... that's a big range though, "between 20 and 400 million tonnes"? So it could be 20, or it could be 400, or it could be somewhere in between? Or, since it's a stat in a government report, it could be a complete lie... sorry, "mistake that they never admit to"?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I failt so see how a 3c rise in tempewrature would cause that much devastation to cereal crop.

Cereal crop is grown in all parts of the world in all temperatures, I really can not see the sense or justification of that argument.

---------- Post added at 09:38 ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 ----------

it would vaporise in the re-entry.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Doesn't matter, there'll soon be nothing left of the planet anyway!! :erm:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4897252.stm

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Oh dear woh it betold upon us.

yeah right...

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Global warming is only past the point of return if we give up trying to put right what we have been doing wrong to the environment.

The truth is we need to change the way we have been living on the planet and start to do more to help the planet recover.

We need to buy time to put things right and we can do that by:-

a) pumping ozone back into the atmosphere to repair the damage to the hole in the ozone layer

b) growing more trees, bushes and plants especially in countries with long hours of sunlight to mop up the excess carbon dioxide we are producing

c) developing sustainable non-polluting fuels and technology so that we can maintain our economies without harming the environment

d) reducing emissions from old technology equipment in a phased way so that old technology is replaced by new technology as soon as it is available

e) making preparations to combat the rising water levels by improving coastal defences now particulary in coastal areas that are close to sea level where there is high risk of flooding

f) moving towards the idea of using home -based solar power and wind power
to generate electricity which can be integrated into the National Grid

g) building coastal desalination plants so that we can tap into the waters of the sea particularly in periods of drought

h) upgrading existing reservoirs and have a national system of domestic rain barrels so that when rain does come we can conserve more water

i) moving back to the idea of growing enough food of our own, especially at home, to sustain the nation instead of being reliant on imports from other countries

j) drawing up and implementing domestic strategies for recycling and avoiding the waste of resources like water, food and fuel

There are, I am sure, many other ways we can improve things. Unfortunately, carrying on the way we are and doing nothing to help the environment will only make matters worse.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

So where does this fit into the whole global warming discussion?If even the act of putting something right is pointless what the heck are we to do?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

The problem with this is that while the scientists carry out their research, societies and the industry they generate will still be polluting the environment compounding the problem. By the time they arrive at any conclusions, the consequences of global warming will be upon us and there will be too little time to do anything.

We know that the ice caps are melting and we know that many coastal areas will be flooded when the water levels rise. We need to act now to prevent that happening and we need to have a plan for moving people inland. This was something that New Orleans did not prepare for and look what happened there.

There are other consequences of global warming and we need to plan and implement strategies now. Like two men falling from the roof of a 102 storey building, their parachutes need to be deployed before reaching ground level. If they spend their falling time arguing about what the best plan of action will be, we can predict what the outcome will be.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

That article is interesting though. Cleaner air is actually contributing to the problems. How ironic!

The key for me is in the line "...scientists suggest that...", which in my mind implies that they aren't all that sure really. So, every time they come up with a new idea about how to save the planet, the knee-jerk reaction is not always the best one. After all, when we were being urged to cut down pollution, did any of the esteemed scientists mention the damage we might be causing?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

There was an Horizon programme on this last year, it's called Global Dimming.
Because we have been pumping tons of particulates into the atmosphere for more than a century it is actually masking the effects of greenhouse gases, now that we are not pumping so much crud up there it is thought the effects of greenhouse gases are much worse than was originally thought.
We may have reduced particulates but have increased CO2 emissions.
So everyone, light a bonfire! :erm:

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

More of this kind of thing

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4914748.stm

needed, in my opinion.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

A route has now opened allowing people to "sail" to the North Pole for the first time in recorded human history...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/climatewarmingarctic

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Wonder how long it will be before some entrepreneur starts offering trips to the North Pole in a similar way to tourists going out into space.

Goiven the rapid meltdown in the Arctic circle I wonder too if we could see a map of sea levels now and compare them with periods in the past. At least it would give us an idea of which coastal areas are likely to flood.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

The good news is that we won't have to go to Mallorca to get a tan !

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

True. And wine drinkers can have a vineyard in their own back garden. Can't be bad!! LOL!!

On the downside, you won't have to go to the seaside..it'll be coming to you. Man the lifeboats!!

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Meanwhile, in the USA

State sues car firms on climate

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Does that mean they've decided whether we are going to have extreme heat or another ice age then? Took them long enough

Makes me laugh all this global warming. We've had global warming ever since the last ice age, which is why we are here. The earth warms up, then cools down, and repeats... Its been happening for billions of years, its not just going to stop now because humans are here. The earth has had several ice ages.

I find this graph rather interesting... And this.

The arrogance of certain groups to have control over mother nature never ceases to amaze me sometimes. Nature can't be controlled, no matter how many Priuses they sell.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I watched a great documentary about the Icestorm which affects Montreal in Canada.

The effects of the storm were horrendous with pylons collapsing under the weight of the ice on the power cables.

6 of the 8 power networks supplying the city were knocked out. Communications were knocked out i.e TV, mobile phones etc. People were having to leave their homes to go into shelters for safety. Dangerously icy and blocked roads, massively heavy snowfalls, people getting hypothermia, food shortages showed how the storm negatively affected the city.

If an Ice Age comes, the thought of moving glaciers ploughing their way through today's technological dependent societies does not bear thinking about.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

The problem with all these predictions of the end of the world is simply that we don't have a lot (relatively speaking) of data to build a climate model on. We have around 200 years worth of data, but can only guarentee the accuracy of the last 40 years or so worth of data. So, essentially, we are predicting the actions of a system that has operated for millions of years based on a couple of hundred years of data (160 of which is possibly not accurate).

To me, it seems a bit like predicting the personality of a person you've only just met based on their actions in the first 2 minutes.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Try telling that to the people of New Orleans. Building any city below sea level on the coastline is a recipe for disaster.

Holland has just built a fantastic sea defence system to prevent the same thing happening to them.

Predictions merely give us the opportunity to see possible outcomes and to prepare for them. Invariably, when we fail to take basic preparations some disaster happens.

We are already seeing worsening weather round the world; sea levels are rising; trees and plants which absorbed excess CO2 are being cut down; there's a hole in the Ozone layer caused by CFCs etc. That does suggest lines of action we can take.

As for personality predicting, I suppose it depends what happens in those two minutes.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Next they will tax us for farting as it gives off gases which can cause global warming.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

That's exactly it... If. They still saying that due to global warming we'll either end up with extreme heat due to greenhouse gases etc, or extreme cold due to human-created ice age.

Now that's a pretty wide margin of error they have there. Sounds like a Mystic Meg prediction to me... "The winner of the lottery will be...... breathing."

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

None of which actually disproves what I said. New Orleans, while a disaster, isn't proof that the world is ending.

We are seeing worsening weather around the world, true. Sea levels are rising, also true. However, we don't have enough data to say what is causing those things to happen. It could merely be a function of nature.
Not really, as without knowning someone for a lot longer than two minutes, you have no way of knowing if they are acting within character or not. You could meet me for two minutes, and I may be in a bad mood. You may then assume I am permanently in a bad mood, which may or may not be the case.

---------- Post added at 12:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 ----------

TBH, I am not saying the world isn't ending. Put simply, I don't know. However, AFAIK, neither does the scientific community. Hence, all we have heard MAY just be scare stories based on an inadequate knowledge of the planet's weather systems.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

So temperatures in England are on average 1 degree higher than in 1950's, snow is rapidly dissapearing from Kilimanjaro's peak, glaciers are receiding at their greatest ever rate and hurricanes are now more frequent over the atlantic than at any other time in recorded history.

But punky has a graph that says over "millions" of years (not the last 100) the Earth does this anyway so were all Ok.

You dont drive a 4x4 do you - or perhaps a BMW?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Hmm. The Royal Society is not overly fond of climate change sceptics and the oil companies funding pseuod-scientific organisations: "Britain's leading scientists have challenged the US oil company ExxonMobil to stop funding groups that attempt to undermine the scientific consensus on climate change.

In an unprecedented step, the Royal Society, Britain's premier scientific academy, has written to the oil giant to demand that the company withdraws support for dozens of groups that have "misrepresented the science of climate change by outright denial of the evidence".
The scientists also strongly criticise the company's public statements on global warming, which they describe as "inaccurate and misleading". http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1876540,00.html

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Oh and not to forget the direct shipping passage thats now opened right to the North pole itself...

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Nope. I don't drive at all, and actually try and save energy where I can.

However, my point is that we don't know what was happening millions of years ago. All we know is what has happened in the last 40 or 50 years with any certainty. It is entirely possible that temperatures have risen that fast in the past.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

The fact that scientists cannot agree whether the Earth will freeze of burn should tell us one thing, that things will not remain the same and we shall leave a legacy of extreme weather conditions for future generations, there is overwhelming scientific evidence to prove that this is caused by mans activity and overwhelming evidence that those that do the most damage don't give a toss.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I'm not saying the world is ending either. I'm reporting that there have been major changes which could impact negatively on our lives.

Ice ages are a part of the Earth's natural history. It's perfectly normal for the Earth to have Ice ages. However, if one did come it would have a massive impact on our lives and we are not even preparing for the possibility.

Similarly, sea levels are rising. Holland has made preparations. New Orleans didn't. The world did end for some people..they drowned. Many others no longer live in New Orleans as their homes were destroyed.

As for meeting you in a bad mood that's OK. It shows me what you can be like when you are in a bad mood and I can prepare for that possibility. So if you are abusive, I can follow one line of action; if you are violent, I can follow another.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

In that case, stop worrying and enjoy the good weather.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Global warming is real. the questions are, why is it happening and is there anything we can do about it and even should we do anything about it.

the graph of the vostok ice cores shows a couple of interesting things
that there is a link between co2 and temperature and it appears to be getting more dusty. there was a program on the tv last night that was trying to prove a connection between dust in the atmosphere and lightening/storms, mmm very thought provoking stuff.

anybody know how the ice and snow is doing at the south pole?
because there has been a lot less down there in the past than there is now, so the white stuff switching between north and south poles.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

We always hear how its the hottest day since 1920 or the coldest winter since 1940. Well what happened then to make it so hot or cold and why can't this be happening again rather than global warming?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

:rolleyes:

And even if I did, it would still probably be more efficient and healthier for the environment than the guy down the road with the POS 15 year old Fiesta.

However, unless they had SUVs preceding/succeeding the last 4 ice ages* in the earth's 4.5 billion year history, then I think the periods of warming and cooling have more to with nature and not SUVs.

And no, I am not part of an oil cartels either.

*There has been 4 major ice ages in the past, however, there has been hundreds of minor ones occuring at frequencies of 40,000 to 100,000 years.

---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 17:06 ----------

I never said it wasn't... However, its a scientific fact, that temperature has gone from both hot and cold extremes in the past long before humans, apes, or even mammalian-like creatures ever set foot on the earth.

If we didn't burn fossil fuels nor use planes or SUVs, then the earth's temperature will still rise and fall as it has done consistently in the past.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

why is the royal society getting quite so batey if burning fossil fuels is an irrelevance. and why indeed do the oil companiues fund these cod scientific organisations unless its to muddy the research waters?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I see Richard Branson has just pledged $3 Billion to fight it, whatever the cause.

;)

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Wow, in one post you have managed to libel thousands of research scientists that might for all you know actually agree with you.

This issue is addressed in State Of Fear. If research money comes from oil companies, then the scientist is automatically corrupt regardless of his reputation or what he actually researches/reports. However, if a scientist is funded from a leftist, pro global-warming agenda based organisation, then automatically you're above reproach, and the sun shines out of your backside.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I don't think those claims are in dispute, but rather the rate at which the changes are now occuring.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Anyone got a cam cap for a 97 Citroen Xantia 1.9TD engine so I can continue to do my bit (and actually the bit of many of you) and get back to runnning a car on SVO? :)
Don't you just hate it when cam belts snap?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Yes, hasn't it been proven through ice core analysis that the rate of change has increased dramatically since the industrial revolution?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

As for using State of Fear as a basis for argument, a reviewer on Amazon sums it up:

---------- Post added at 17:35 ---------- Previous post was at 17:31 ----------

I personally don't know but it certainly sounds plausible.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Wow, The Oysterman says so, so it must be true.

However Dr Crighton provides the sources for all facts (I check random ones out and they always checked out)... Not many people do that. He cites his intrepretation but at least the evidence is there so the reader can make his own.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Which, incidentally, is what Oysterman advises.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

well actually it was the royal society which im sure you agree is a most learned body. it is they that are pointing out the highly dubious tactics being employed by exxon and co discredit the overwhelming body of peer reviewed evidence.

this issue is far too important to be left to people with commercial interests. why would a leftist organisation wish to promote climate change. what really is in it for them? why would you be 'pro-global warming'? whats their agenda? i dont see the payback for them but i do for exxon in discrediting legitimate scientific enquiry with pseudo scientific enquiry, as the royal society, not me, alleges.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

There it is again. Look up the definition of stereotyping.

If they have an agenda, they want people who'll enforce it on other people. Often, but not exclusively small ideological organisations are fronts, or coordinating with much bigger ones. Donations don't always end up where you send them.

If someone paid you for a report, would you report be any different if it was funded by the Lib Dems or Tories? If you aren't suceptible to such corruption, then why are you assuming everyone else is? Point of fact one of Noam Chomsky's early works was funded by the US military. Does that mean his work is compromised?

Basically...

Discredit the work, not the author based on where the funding comes from.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

ok. tell me what you think of the royal society. after all, as i said it is they that are complaining about the oil companies. is the royal society some some of green leftist revolutionary front?



so tell me what they might achieve in promoting the idea that co2 emissions are causing climate change?
the premise is a false one unless you accept that scientists are promoting the idea of climate change for the sake of it. what could their ulterior motive be? if wind farms inc were paying maybe. like i say we are talking about the royal society which is expressing concern, in an unprecedented manner, about the actions of the oil companies which it believes is trying to undermine the pretty consensual scientific evidence about climate change.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I think it is time we sat down & really thought about how we use our resources sensibly, because it is a good idea in itself, not because it is going to have a notional effect on our climate...

The climate, sunspots, the orientation of the Earth's magnetic field etc are all subject to cycles, some of which may be predictable, some which may not?

But the amount of waste we tolerate, of all sorts, currently, is huge - and happening.

In my opinion we should worry less about the future & deal with what we can deal with, now, just because we can - but, :LOL: how naive is that ;)

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

could a passing mod please have a look at this post, I did not send it ! My thread mentioned not having to go to Mallorca for hols

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Eh? You know that if you want a mod to check a particular post, you can use the Report Post function..

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I don't really know a lot about the Royal Society. It doesn't really matter either, as I am talking to you, not them. I suspect though, the the RS are actually doing proper research on specific articles and coming up with informed opinions, unlike you with your if-its-funded-by-oil-companies-its-compromised line. That's nothing but stereotyping and libel.


Motivation? How about punishing the successful (aka rich), something most people on the left like to do. People who are more successful, use more resources, which means more waste products and pollution. There are loads of others, like money, and recruits who might support other supplement agendas like animal research. It doesn't really matter what motivation, whether its to curb emissions or help oil sales. The whole point of having an agenda is that they can enforce it on others. That's the difference between an agenda and an opinion. An agenda means you have some objective to be achieved. People on all sides of the political spectrum can have an agenda, not just oil companies.

Anyway, since you're ignoring half of what I say, and twisting the other half out of context, I don't suppose this discussion will go anywhere.

Although, can you justfy inpuning the reputation of thousands of scientists without any research or knowlege of their reports? If I was one of the aforementioned scientists, id be quite disgusted at your remark. Don't suppose you are going to throw out your Noam Chomsky books are you?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Info on the Royal Society:

http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Society


Last year, ahead of the G8 summit, the Royal Society & the science academies of the other G8 nations (plus also those of Brazil, China & India) published a statement saying that the scientific evidence on climate change is clear & that the G8 nations needed to take action.

http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/news.asp?id=3226

http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/document.asp?latest=1&id=3222



In the Royal Society's letter to Exxon, they say that these groups which have received funding from Exxon have "misrepresented the science of climate change by outright denial of the evidence". They also criticise Exxon's own public take on climate science, & say that Exxon's statements about climate science "are not consistent with the scientific literature" & are "misrepresentations".



The following is from an article by George Monbiot. He is, of course, going to be biased, as he is an environmentalist, but it is still interesting reading:

http://environment.guardian.co.uk/cl...875762,00.html

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

From what they were saying on the radio yesterday, they are objecting to the oil companies supporting dodgy science and lobby groups, rather than opposing viewpoints from good science.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

attack me all you want but all ive done is put forward the royal society's view. now if you want to attack them for its-funded-by-oil line then you'd better provide a more informed argument yourself.

for the record i am not, have never been and never intend to join the royal society, not that theyd have me.




its an interesting if rather wild theory. and of course bring us back to the royal society being the sort of anarcho lefty types who want to "punish the rich".

to repeat again and indeed again it is the royal society that is complaining about the oil companies.talk about ignorig what people say ;-)

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Yet again you ignore the point. I'll try and contain my suprise.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

YET AGAIN YOU IGNORE THAT IT IS THE ROYAL SOCIETY THAT IS COMPLAINING ABOUT THE OIL COMPANIES. IT IS THE UK'S NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCE. I DO NOT CLAIM OR PRETEND TO BE A SCIENTIST, JUST SOMEONE WHO IS FOLLOWING THE ISSUES.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

gosh its gone quiet in here ;-)

how does that song go? there are more questions than answers though im not sure how the more that you find out the less you know :-) )

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Aren't these the same guys who are trying to strongarm ExxonMobil into stopping funding scientists who gainsay global warming, though? I thought good science was about exploring competing theories and letting them stand or fall based on evidence, not shutting down exploration of any theory that runs contrary to your own. It sounds more like an inquisition to me.

Given the amount of funding to be had at the moment (providing your study is related to climate change in some way), I wonder whether vested interests play a part here?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I'd rather trust an independant body that does not have a vested interest in oil. Let's face it, any large corporation is going to resist any argument that threatens its profits, power and the status quo, it's the way they work. The world is run by corporations not governments.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

You don't have to accept or trust the results produced by the scientists who are paid for by the oil industry. But to try to prevent them even doing their research? Surely you're not suggesting that is a 'scientific' way to behave?

I also think it is naive to believe that the oil industry is the only vested interest here. As I said earlier, there is a lot of research money to be had at the moment, for people willing to give their time over to researching climate change.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

the royal society alleges that exxon is funding cod-science. whether they're strong-arming depends i guess on your perspective but theyre clearly very annoyed with what they claim exxon are doing - funding multiple pseudo scientific organisations to muddy the waters with the non-scientific community ie the public. they argue that there is an overwhelming consensus regarding the science of climate change. nit sure why they, as a national institute of scientists, would want to prevent genuine scientific exploration of alternative theories. their stance quite clearly is that exxon is not funding genuine scientific exploration.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I thought peer review was about critiquing the results once they're published? No matter how you spin it, trying to prevent research from happening in the first place is not good practice. If they're so confident of their own conclusions, and the dodginess of the competition, they should have no concerns about taking part in an open, rigorous and public debate.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Hope they are using the same message to Creationists.

btw, what ever happened to "Freedom of Speech" ;)

ps I believe that Global Warming is happening, just uncomfortable when groups say what and what can't be researched - if the research these "cod" groups produce is untrue, surely peer review will kill it dead.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Peer review is the process by which manuscripts get published or rejected.

Basically, a researcher submits an article to a journal. The journal then sends the manuscript out to a number of people who are considered knowledgeable in the area. These people (typically 3 or 4) independently critique the paper and give a verdict of accept/reject/accept given modifications. The journal's editor then makes a decision based on these reviews. It's about selecting the research that is good enough to get published.

A similar process is used in bids for research funds from the research councils.

I haven't followed this one, but perhaps it could be argued they are engaging in a public debate about this?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

"the Royal Society, Britain's premier scientific academy, has written to the oil giant to demand that the company withdraws support for dozens of groups that have "misrepresented the science of climate change by outright denial of the evidence"."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/...876541,00.html

Public Debate usually takes the form of one side taking the side of the affirmative, with the burden of advocating and proving the resolution, and the other debater takes the side of the negative, with the burden of refuting the affirmative's case.

Not saying "Stop it, it's wrong";)

Oh, and this is on the Royal Society's website
http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/page.asp?id=4688&tip=1
"Thus at bottom, it is very difficult to separate human induced change from natural change, certainly not with the confidence we all seek. In these circumstances, it is essential to remember that the inability to prove human-induced change is not the same thing as a demonstration of its absence. It is probably true that most scientists would assign a very high probability that human-induced change is already strongly present in the climate system, while at the same time agreeing that clear-cut proof is not now available and may not be available for a long-time to come, if ever. Public policy has to be made on the basis of probabilities, not firm proof."

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

the point is that whilst scientists may be aware its cod scvience, the public and journalists may not. the royal society clearly believes there is a deliberate strategy to undermine what they see as legitimate scientific enquiry using illegitimate tactics due to commercial interest. my understanding is that the "science" they challenge is not subject to standard peer review.

as for freedom of speech, well if you have a lot of cash, from wherever it comes, your speech can be a helluva lot freer because you have greater access to mass communication mediums.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

So, this free speech thing - you for it, or agin it?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

this is what the royal society has to say about climate change and the arguments put forward against it: http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/downloaddoc.asp?id=1630 they certainly see the us oil industry's opposition to kyoto etc as being key to the 'research' findings they present.

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 ----------

well like most things its more complex than that ;-) of course i favour free speech but its also quite clear that not everbody has the same resource with which to communicate their message. in this instance exxon has the resources to both fund organisations (which the rs say are pseudo scientific) and promote the anti-climate change messages which they generate.

in an ideal world freedom of speech would be matched by equal access to communication of that speech. an impossible dream obviously but im sure yoi can see the point im making in that those with power and/or money can reach more people than humble mortals like me and you.

this is, though, another debate :-)

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Hee hee - I will bear that statement in mind, next time any "simple" statements are used in a debate in the Cable Forum.;)

As I said, I think what the Oil companies are doing is equivalent to what the Tobacco companies did (and are still trying to do) at the end of the 20th Century - however, trying to "ban" the funding of research sets an awfully dangerous precedent; let's hope no fundamentalist vegetarian anti-vivisectionists get in charge, or they could "ban" medical research based upon animal testing (but, as you say, that's another thread).

As you have so often said in other threads, these rights are fundamental, and any encroachment on them weakens them.:)

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

of course the rs doesnt actually have the power to prevent exxon funding 'research' so their right to free speech isn't denied.

one of the key points here is that exxon is funding multiple organisations (which the rs says are of dubious origin) rather than a single, reputable scientific orghanisation. This, the rs alleges, suggests that opposition to the general scientific consensus is more widespread than it in fact is. In short, my reading is that they are saying its just a pr tactic.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

My concern is not so much with whether someone's right to free speech is being eroded. With ExxonMobil on their side, that is very unlikely to happen. What worries me is the apparent sacrifice of proper scientific method and objectivity on the part of the Royal Society.

One columnist I read this weekend - either the Sunday Express or Sunday Herald, I forget which - suggested that some climate scientists are beginning to sound worryingly like a priestood, for whom climate change is an article of faith, rather than a scientific theory open to challenge and revision.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

im not sure theres evidence for that.

ah, but could the journalist that wrote that have been lobbied/duped by exxon or scientists in its pay ;-)

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

"The letter, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, adds: "I would be grateful if you could let me know which organisations in the UK and other European countries have been receiving funding so that I can work out which of these have been similarly providing inaccurate and misleading information to the public.""
and
"The next IPCC report should give people the final push that they need to take action and we can't have people trying to undermine it."
Seems to have made up their mind, before finding out the facts.;)

or might he not - OK, your evidence backed statement has convinced me:dozey:

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I wouldn't trust Exxon-Mobil though, these are the people that funded George Bush's re-election! Now they are comparing Al Gore to a nazi !

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/23/gore-movie-g/ :erm:

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

It does seem as though the Royal Society are attacking the source of the research rather than the research itself.

---------- Post added at 15:14 ---------- Previous post was at 15:12 ----------

How about the fact they are attacking the source of the funding rather than the research itself?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

the overall tenor is one of scepticism not backed up by evidence but that statement does allow for accurate resarch being funded in that it says "which of these have been..."


well i did put one of these ;-) at the end of that statement! :-)

---------- Post added at 15:31 ---------- Previous post was at 15:24 ----------

granted they may well be allowing past experience to cloud judgement of research which they have yet to evaluate. but equally they are suggesting there is evidence to demonstrate that exxon are deliberately trying to exaggerate the extent of scientific opposition to what it claims is an otherwise consensual scientific approach (withinin which there are differences) to the causes of climate change.

the fact that exxon, unlike the other oil companies, is not keen to invist in bio fuels is interesting too, though it could be read a few ways why that might be (such as there convinced of their own science). i remain, as ever, sceptical ;-)

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Apologies for bumping an old thread, but, it is encouraging to have read the following.........I wonder if this country might follow suit next year :rolleyes:

Anyway, it is good to note that the US is doing something about GW at last :tu:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6438563.stm

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

The weather today is so amazing for Mid March!! Imagine what its going to be like come July :(

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Just imagine what it will be like in 10 years :Sun:

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Cold probably, like last year

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/22...daffodils.html

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Daffs are blooming (if that's what they do) in Leeds now.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

The planet is due to warm up, no matter what we do about a few gasses- it's currently the coldest it's been for hundreds of millions of years, and has only been this cold three times before.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Hopefully i'll get around to watch "The Great Global Warming Swindle" tonight. Looks interesting.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I watched that programme and I thought it was a credible response to the global warming issue. All the interviewees seemed to have the right credentials.

Then I saw the Sunday Times magazine which had an article that was as scary as you can get.

These contradictory standpoints confused me so I thought I'd look a bit deeper.

I went to the Met office website and came across this, which is a sober and scientific study of climate change and climate modelling. I trust the Met Office...and before you say it...it is not the same as predicting next week's weather.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research...modeldata.html

Having read this document, the truth is...scary.

Since this document was written in 2005 there has been an update document.
I would urge everyone to read this stone cold sober document.

Next I will read the Stern report.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Personally, I don't trust any website ending .gov.uk to handle anything but government spin....

I fimly believe "Man Made" global warming (the planet is warming naturally and theres nothing we can do about it) should be classed along the lines of the Milennium Bug, and is a simple handy tool to raise taxes, keep businesses in line and create jobs.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

That's a very cynical view Paul and I understand where you are coming from but there are departments and departments. Also I would like to think you are right with your conspiracy theory but have you read this report? Have you the knowledge to write with authority or are you just reflecting the thoughts around you and taking the easy line?

I wanted to know if the CO2 build up in the atmosphere was caused by people and I now think I have read a credible arguement that shows that it is our fault. Have you got a credible arguement that says it is not?

Finally, are you willing to gamble with our children's future?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I am simply reflecting a personal view based on reading the IPCC reports and such like. Is it the easy line? going against the general consensus... I don't think so.

simply, that Man-Made CO2 is such a small percentage of the worlds CO2 let alone the Greenhouse gasses, I can't believe that it can affect the earths "biology" so much.

I don't believe that there is a gamble to be made.

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

:erm: The Millennium Bug was real, and it took a lot of time, effort, and money to stop it having any major effect (ask anyone who worked in IT at the time). We spent 15 months investigating, debugging, and replacing systems to minimise any issues.

---------- Post added at 22:29 ---------- Previous post was at 22:28 ----------

But what if you are wrong? Not really fair on the next generation to say "oops, sorry", is it?

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

Remember the front page of the NY Times on new years day 2000?
Headline of something like "Millenium Flop" and an article how it was all for nothing, the bug didn't exist etc, meanwhile the date was printed 01/01/19100 :D

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

I went to the Culham Laboratory on Oxfordshire last night. This is the place where they do research into nuclear fusion reactors, which are able to create endless supplies of electricity from water. Apparently there is enough fusion energy in a litre of water to keep one person in electricity for 7 years. That is the same as burning 147 tons of coal.

Maybe this is our saving technology.

And it's almost pollution free. The only pollutants include a very small amount of low level radioactive waste. The other by-products are lithium and helium.

Here is a link if you are interested:http://www.fusion.org.uk/

Re: Global warming 'past the point of no return'
 

There is a mind-bogglingly vast amount of energy locked up inside every atom in the universe. The trick is to be able to release it in a controlled and useful way. The best minds on Earth have been trying to get nuclear fusion to work for decades now and they are at the stage where the technology is capable of sustaining a fusion reaction for (IIRC) half an hour or more. But it is still a long way from being commercially viable. The reaction requires a pretty huge energy kick to get it started so until a reaction can be sustained more or less indefinitely, we're not going to be getting our cheap, limitless energy from fusion.

It is telling that, throughout the entire ongoing climate debate, nobody is talking about fusion in the energy mix. And this is despite the fact that the world's leading economies are spending billions on a co-operative project to develop the technology. They all think it is worth pursuing, but it's not going to reap benefits for a very long time yet.