Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Maybe, instead of Alison Lapper, the commission should have been for a little green monster, depicted lurking under a bridge! :)

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LMAO at this thread.Oh how I've missed CF for the last week! :D

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Tell me - did you get withdrawal symptoms? :)

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Being topless and merely standing there isn't pornographic. That's why The Sun and Daily Sport can be sold to children.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

You're being way too subtle there...

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

I note too that there is no graphic depiction of Alison Lapper's genitalia, nor any allegedly erotic pose - unlike in pornographic representation. Interview with the artist and - horror! - full frontal of the sculpture here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...568604,00.html

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

personally the statue doesn't bother me, i dont like it or dislike it particularly. One of those "overcoming adversity" things and all that is what it looks like to me...

as for the location though, i don't particularly think trafalgar square is the right place for it. It seems a bit too in contrast with all the other artwork that is there...

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Hmmmm interesting morals you have liking Bernard Manning!

Hmmm i would say a small minority would be against naked statues!

A violent film will have a more damaging impact on kids, i take it you campaign against that to?

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I don't think people can argue definitively whether it is erotic or not. I though if something is erotic, it is sexually arousing, and so it is subjective? I can imagine there will be plenty of people who'd find that erotic (even if its not intended to be).

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Just remember - it's only there for 18 months! (I know I said next March earlier, but it seems it's April 2007.)

So for now, it contrasts with the existing works - that's appropriate too.

Maybe it doesn't 'belong' there, in the longer term, but I'm sure it'll find a home.
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And that would, of itself, NOT make it pornography.

There are people who are aroused by the sight of stockinged feet - still no pornography.

Hence, the 'causing arousal' is not a valid test as to whether something is pornographic.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

1 i wouldn't lower myself to call you names.
2 i didn't know there was a limit to the number of posts i could put in a thread.
3 i like thousands of others happen to like bernard manning if you don't thats your problem.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

It is only in my opinion, remember ;) i'm sure once this thread gathers dust i will forget about it anyway, until the k'nex set goes up. I don't plan on going to london in the next 18 months, so i can't see it being on the news everywhere unless someone goes and defaces it etc.

Is this the disabled woman that crops up on bbc documentaries all the time?

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Yes the Robert Winstone documentary "Child of Our Time".
Her son's name is Paris IIRC.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Maybe not, but you were equally rude to others. Don't bother trying to claim the moral high ground - it's already heavily defended...

Maybe there isn't, but you're making a very good case for why there should be.

No problem for me. But it really does damage your credibility on your 'morality bandwagon'.
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And you're welcome to it! :)

If they do, then I have a prime suspect...

No idea, though I had heard of the artists before this.
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Parys, according to the Guardian article linked earlier.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

at the risk of being told off for hogging the thread.
yes i would have issues with violent films they shouldn't be shown to kids.
and i even thought the recent series of bad lads army was disgusting and should never have been shown if itv thinks that showing men washing other mens backsides is entertainment there wrong,its disgusting.

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Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Atlast we agree on something :)

Didn't watch Bad Lads but i think it did go out after 9pm!

Anyway i think we're going down the morals avenue and that is a whole new thread, so on that note i'll depart!

;)

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Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

I'm indifferent to it really. Don't see what the problem is tbh. You see boobs on the beach, in the newspapers, on the town on a saturday night... It's almost like the Venus bust my mother has in her garden, but with a tummy and legs. Big deal :shrug:

To all those that are offended and have children - are you going to have your children removed from sex ed classes when they come round? Because what they're going to see then is a damn sight more 'graphic' than the statue is... :rolleyes:

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Missed that one. Must look it up.

I liked the way that one entwined the plinth. It seemed almost like it had grown there naturally.

Yup. But then we can't like all art.

Fair enough. I think it is beautiful. Can't wait to see it for real.

It does look rather...plasticy.

Much better now they're free. But even so, 'art' doesn't get very inspiring coverage by the media, and in school lots of people are put off, because not everyone is exceptionally 'artistic', but many could appreciate art - if only they weren't spoon-fed how art must be appreciated.

Reminds me of a piece I saw which was just that - a large jar of pee, with cigarette butts in it. Looked rather pointless to me.
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I think that's part of the power of it. And that 'armless' Venus is acknowledged as one of the great works of art.

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Nice one Nem! :)

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Don't! I still have nightmares about the family playing volleyball on the beach... shudder ;) :disturbd:

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

There was an interview with the artist (and Lapper) on the BBC yesterday. The artist took his inspiration partly from the Venus. Basically, he said: people are coming from around the world to see this piece which is considered the epitome of beauty. Yet, if someone who looked like it were to enter the room, he/she would be shunned. I think he has a point...

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

I tried that. I hurts too much topless.... :erm:

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I saw it on the news last night and to be honest I have no opinion ether way. Am I offended because she is nude...nope, am I offended because she is pregnant...nope, am I offended because she is disabled...hell no.

To be honest if I had just walked past this I would have looked and then carried on walking and never given it a second thought.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Nice one Nem! :)

I'm not offended by it either. I just think it's totally out of place there........

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I agree Rammy

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I would.........they could have done so much better..............

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In which case as a piece of art it has failed. Actually I think its siting is crucial because most people will notice it because its not your usual, familiar, weather-beaten, plinth dwelling art. And when they notice it, it might make them think about their attitudes to beauty and disability.

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Venus is only armless 'cos her arms were damaged.......

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But why?

BTW - what did that photoshopped image of Michaelangelo's David have to do with it?

For example?

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

just watching bbc news24 lord nelsons funeral live, it was the real one on this day 1806.

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Thats nice...............but Trafalgar square is imo not the place to be making pc statements or statements about art/femininity/disability.....

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That's not the reason why it is considered great.

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See my posts above

Thats an example of how we can have an attractive nude.......

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

So where would be an appropriate place for that?

Or, what would be an appropriate statement to be made in Trafalgar Square?
That London got the 2012 Olympics?
Or that the England cricket team got lucky?

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I think there's more important things to get offended by or to consider morally repugnant - as stated previously there is an element of society that walks all over disabled peoples rights by using parking facilties set aside for the less able. That's what should be getting the newspaper articles/discussion, not this piece of art.

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Each to their own. I prefer women...

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Doh! Really? ;) :D

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in this day and age that's a brave step for a man to admit to preferring women!

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I think we have a lot of famous people in our history that this country owes a lot to that could have had there statue put there then it would be in keeping with Nelson etc

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I did, and so far all I can determine is that you think it is 'inappropriate' to have the statue in Trafalgar Square because you think it's not 'attractive'.

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How about we stop being in debt to war heros etc just for a second, and celebrate a women who overcame some incredible odds for a change?

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I think I'll get away with it.
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That gets my vote.

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Dunno why they didnt build a memorial to those killed on 7/7 personally.

But in all honesty, I dont think a statue of a naked pregnant woman is up there with Nelson you know? It wont really bother me cos I hate London and wouldnt be going there anyway.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Maybe they will, one day. Would be interesting to see where people think that should be sited...

I don't think one is being compared with the other. However, at the same time, I feel that I have much more in common with Alison Lapper than I do with Nelson.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

What else could they have done? How about a (well proportioned) collection of multicultural nudes (but needent be nude)? A collection of statues of Sikh/'black'/white/muslim......depicting this islands diversity?
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Thats right.it's my personal opinion. :shrug:.............but do you think she's attractive.........I know Michaelangelo wouldn't have got far in his career if he'd produced art like that.............
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Same here but I'm capable of appreciating a well formed male nude as well..........
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No problem there..........I just think it's an innapropriate spot to make a statement like that.
(Why don't we just go the whole hog and do away with the lions and nelson as well...............we could have a different disabilty on each plinth-dwarfism (two types), marfans on another plinth, cerebral palsy on the 4th and the column could be topped by a statue of the superman actor in his wheelchair!) ;) :D

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Michelangelo did loads of nude stuff....a lot more 'pictorial' than the Lapper statue too... :erm:
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I like the lions and Nelsons column. No-one is suggesting that they're done away with. BUt I like the idea of 'rotating' the art displayed on the fourth plinth. Eventually all tastes should be catered for. :shrug:

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

lol......I like nudes but they should really be somewhat attractive if they are going to be placed alongside the other 'heroic' art in thecenter of one of the worlds great cities.
I am not offended by her statue.........
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I'm non too keen on the next effort either............imo it's even less appropriate.....but at least it's not trying to be pc or confrontational.....

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

No, it's made of plastic and looks like the left overs of the first prototype of ker-plunk. Brilliant :tu: :erm:

I don't think the Lapper statue is either pc or confrontational - I think the artist was truly inspired by a rather magnificant lady who deals with the trials of life a lot better than us more fortunate, fully limbed people.

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From what I heard on the radio yesterday, the artist's only real interest is in shock value, which is why the statue looks quite shoddy close-up - it's made of moulded pieces stuck together rather than being properly sculpted. His 'skill' is in shocking people, not producing quality art.

I think Lapper has allowed herself to be exploited. I have no objection to highlighting disability as an issue and I don't object to the statue being there. I'm just not comfortable with the motivation of the person who made it.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

My prayers have been answered! Thank you! :tu: :) This is what I have ben saying all along........
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.and it's just a place for those winged rats to roost! :rolleyes: :D

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Whatever his motive (and like the law about breastfeeding on public etc) - Anything like this that forces people to address their prejudices isn't a bad thing IMO.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

"This is 11.5 tonnes of bright-white marble hewn from the Tuscan mountains; it took four Italian craftsmen 10 months to carve its shape........ The final month of work has seen Quinn's sculpture carefully polished with sandpaper and pumice, giving it a blinding white sheen from which sheets of light seem to bounce." http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...&postcount=106
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Indeed. And the siting is important. As the artist says, he want's it to be noticed whereas most established public art simply blends into the landscape and is ignored.

"He hopes the statue might encourage people to examine again our landscape of public sculpture. "No one really looks at it," he said. "But this statue will mess with people's subconscious. It's as if someone has come into your room when you're not there and moved the bed."

The sculpture, selected from a list of submissions by the Fourth Plinth Commissioning Group, under the auspices of the mayor of London, will tower over the square for 18 months, after which it will be replaced by Thomas SchÃÃâ€*’¼tte's Hotel for the Birds. Quinn hopes, however, that this will not be the end for Alison Lapper Pregnant. He would like it to be bought by a sympathetic individual, and permanently displayed in London - "maybe next to Field Marshall Haig, on Whitehall". He believes London is the only city in the world that could have commissioned such a sculpture. "It's a city that's not afraid of taking risks. It's a place that's full of tradition, but also about innovation, capable of embracing the future. And it's a city of diversity - this work embraces that, too."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...568604,00.html

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

It's also interesting that they noted when discussing it on the radio that he wasn't that interested in her until he found out she was pregnant because of the extra shock value.

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So it was 4 Italians that made it and not this artist fella?

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What radio programme was this? Was Quinn actually involved in any of these conversations?

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Yep, I wanted to include something about that in my post but I didn't hear all of it. I was listening to it while I waited for Kwik Fit to open. They raised the shutters at that point and I had to make a dash for it, to hand in my keys and get to the station on time.

How strange that someone would want to use an image of a disabled, pregnant woman in order to 'mess with people's subconscious'. The more I think about it, the more puzzled I am that Lapper allowed it to happen.

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From seeing her on TV I can't believe she's have posed if she thought she was be used purely for shock value.

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Well, she was on that documentary series with Winston moustache bloke does IVF stuff and I can never remember his name, and other programs.
Maybe she's an attention seeker?
As an artist too, maybe she's not as cynical as the rest of us and so doesn't view it as being exploited?

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

That's funny, I saw on TV and came to a completely opposite conclusion. She does seem very extroverted, very dominant and powerful, so I think she'd revel in the shock value bit of it.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

I looked at this thread and wondered why this sculpture is considered art yet the one in trafalger is being frowned upon?

I dont even think the venus de milo could be considered porno graphic.

(click on pic to enlarge)

Venus de Milo
Parian marble, h 2.02 m (6 1/2 ft)
Found at Milo
130-120 BC
Musee du Louvre, Paris

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2005/09/8.jpg

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

I consider her statue to be art........I just think it's inappropriate in it's location.

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Is that because it doesn't pander to your own sense of what's beautiful or art? Or because you don't think Trafalgar Square is the place to be making socio-political statements?
This is what i don't understand..... if it's a socio-political comment then Trafalgar Square would seem to be the perfect place for it.
As the Royal Society for the encouragement of Arts, Manufactures & Commerce quotes ........ "Trafalgar Square has long been the place of political meetings and demonstrations, including those of the Chartists who began their march here in 1848. More recently, it has become the terminal point of protest marches." and as Paul Usherwood, rightly points out in Art Monthly 98-99 "...it remains the case that, whatever the issue, whether it be women's' suffrage, Suez or the Poll Tax, Trafalgar Square is the place you go as a responsible citizen in time of national celebration or crisis."


Corrected linky for History of Plinth


Trafalgar Sq has been the centre of social and political activity, activism, celebration and commeroration.....

This statue is just a tiny blimp in it's history........ i say let it be :)




Edited: Link correction

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Well speaking for myself, its not that I don't consider it art, its because I consider it to be crap art. A sculpture of a woman isn't new innovative, creative, or even hard to do. Just because the woman is disabled, it doesn't make the art any better. It isn't the subject that's important, the artwork itself is, and how its concieved.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Both......btw....linky is wrong....
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Whereas I don't even think it's crap art......I think it's ok as art.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Actually, it would be nice if Trafalgar wasn't the place for socio-political artwork. socio-politics is the one big wedge that tends to force the right and the left apart and leave the centrists languishing in the middle. It does us all no good. Why can't it just be a piece of artwork, then everyone can come together in unity and say "That's really nice, I like that...". Why does everyone always have to be rabble-rousing?

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Absolutely.....but why can't we have something beautiful or in keeping with the rest of the square and european capital city historical art in general. Why do we have to be the ones who push the boundries or make people think about disabilities/womens rights/pc issues........whats wrong with something uplifting or conventionally beautiful?
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Exactly! :tu:

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I dont think its wrong at all to display such a statue. It shows that people who have disabilities have as much rights as anyone else in the world.
I do however think it may be better in an arts museum or eg. The Tate, as it doesnt seem to fit in with the other things on the square.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

OK, so listening to some people: If someone made a statue of me, it be ok art. If someone chopped off my arts and then did a similar statue of me, it would be better art? We're supposed to be judging the artist and artwork here, not the person who inspired it.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Nothing wrong with it whatsoever........ apart from having to pander to convention.... in this case yours :)

I haven't seen the statue in person....... i will do, one day no doubt..... i have preconceptions about beauty and art in the same way that you have, however, i don't feel the need to impose my values on others..... the statue will come and go....... whether it's beautiful or not....... when i stand to look at it, it will make me think........ many things probably, one of them perhaps being 'Mmmmmm........ that looked a whole lot better in the photo' ;) But at the same time, i'm sure i'll spend at least a moment delighting in the transient speck in time when Trafalgar Square had a large, rounded vision of femininity and motherhood that didn't aspire to the unnatural conventions of beauty that abound today......... Art isn't just something to look at, it's something to see........ to interact with......... to make you think....... it has the capacity to show us what we were, what we are and what may be........

If all this statue does is to encourage me and you, ramrod, to meet under it, in a few weeks time...... and stare it and debate it's value....... then it's achieved something in my eyes :)

I'm not here to argue my opinion of beauty or the value of art....... i'm only posting to say that the statue is here....... will be gone...... but in the meantime........... i salute her :)

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Perhaps it is time to re-assess what is CONVENTIONAL beauty?I'm sick of a world where only the conventionally featured and figured get positive attention.Where if you are between 0 and 25 and are what is traditionally known as a classical beauty your phizzog and opinions matter more than than some one who is considered to be ugly or physically less than perfect.If you look at some of the sketches Da Vinci did as his research for his characters in his artwork you would see that he did not regard the plain or common place as being unworthy as subjects.He saw them as having real character.If one only ever sees one type of figure or looks as beauty how boring art is going to be.

Now remember I hate Tracy Ennim and Damien Hurst's so called art work not because of the subject matter but because they have not actually done anything particularly artistic.Using chemicals to preserve a dead animal or sleeping in a bed are not an expression of art to me.They are just activities that anyone can do.At least the statue of Lapper is a work of art.

Plus you have yet to see what else is going to be on display after THIS particular piece of artwork.You will have lots to complain about then. ;)

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Thats what I've been saying all along..... :tu:
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I've seen it and bitched about that piece of sh*te already! :D

I know da vinchi portrayed all sorts of figures in his art but in the main (especially the stuff he sculpted) it was all uplifting, 'heroic' stuff. This ain't it.......
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That would probably be an interesting conversation..... :D

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Well if you regard the Mona Lisa as a great beauty ....I think she is a wonderful example of the plain and ordinary pitched as a great beauty which Da Vinci was sooo excellent at doing. ;)

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Question for the women. Would you find it equally beautiful, and equally as good as a work of art, if it was a man with no arms instead of a woman?

Be honest.





All the women when talking about this art work don't mention its creation, or its conception, they just think all about femininity and female empowement/superiority and 'bravery' (yeah, give her a VC :rolleyes: ) of the subject. Makes me feel like I am at a feminist rally really.

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iirc......she was the shape that was all the rage at the time.........

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You remember those times? :D

Of course, she (mona) could be a he ;)

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:erm:The best looking chap I saw at work this week was also a thalidomide victim. :D Nice well spoken fellow too. His nickname was baldy.

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Translation: Something that Ramrod considers beautiful :rolleyes:

Other people have opinions too.

Great, let's have a sculpture of the surgeon on the Victory sawing off someone's leg!!

Why *shouldn't* we be the ones to push the boundaries?

What's *wrong* with something that makes you think about your prejudices?

Why do you not consider this to be "uplifting"? Personally I think that this woman has managed to succeed against the odds and I feel that's more uplifting than glorifying war.

Which do you think is better? A statue of someone who *takes* lives, or a statue of someone who *produces* life?
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A friend of mine was doing a course on Art and Media and for one talk he showed a picture of the Venus de Milo and then a photo of a woman in a very similar pose but with her arms photo-shopped away.

A lot of people found the second one disturbing, but they were unable to explain why apart from "it's wrong".

But it make them *think*.

In which case what's the big deal about this bloke on top of the column? He only *inspired* the thing, he didn't *make* it...!!
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Well said!

For everyone else...

Attached are two pictures of a sculpture by Rodin: "She who used to be the beautiful Heaulmiere."

Think about her.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

How can i comment on something's quality/beauty when it doesn't exist? Show me the piece of artwork and i'll give you my opinion.
You're suggesting by your question that my criticism was only dictated by my gender....... whereas i'm perfectly capable of having a more objective opinion.
I can't offer an opinion on the beauty of a male, statue with no arms since i haven't seen it :shrug: If you're asking if i think it could have the same value, then yes, it can....... depending on what the work is depicting and how it is depicted.

Let me see..... you're actually asking if we/i only heap praise on the statue because it's of the female form, suggesting that we wouldn't if it was of a man....... armless or not........ obviously not pregnant then :rolleyes:
If you feel that you're at a femininist rally....... particularly on this forum..... then i believe it's one of your own making. I certainly haven't mentioned 'superiority' :erm: and as far as 'bravery' (yeah, give her VC :rolleyes: ) is concerned...... any disabled person willing to go through childbirth and bring up a child IS brave (i'm not specifically referring to the model)...... but as you well know, they wouldn't be eligible for a VC....... various benefits no doubt. Your bitterness is tanglble...... shame.




PS... actually....... i'm off...... have a rally to attend.....

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Now, Rodin really knew how to make a sculpture 'live'.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Nelson's column is totally different. It isn't supposed to be a work of art in its own right, encouraging merit upon the artist (who did it anyway?), but its an act of tribute, of respect to someone. If you want to want to critically appraise that as a piece of art, than its rather bland and unimaginative too.

I mean... Winston Churchill's statue in Woodford, Matt Busby's statue in Manchester, are they all works of art too because they are sculptures accurately depicting the subject? Probably not, which means people are judging the subject, not the artwork. All I keep hearing isn't the woman beautiful, isn't she feminine, isn't she empowered... But she isn't up there, a statue is.

Anyway, comparisons to the Venus de Milo (near as damnit the same as Lapper's statue, done 2100 years ago, how original!) are false anyway, because the Venus de Milo had arms originally. People didn't fall in love with it because it was found without arms.

Wouldn't take much imagination. Just shrink the breasts a bit.

The point I was trying to make is that people are ladling praise on Alison Lapper, about how wonderful/brave/etc she is, when really we are supposed to be talking about her statue, and the artist that created it. The subject is irrelevent.

Bitter? Not bitter, its too strong, but I feel some people are a bit too easily swayed. Because they think Alison Lapper is wonderful, the statue must also be wonderful. Wether I am right on this, I doubt we'll know, but just my thoughts - I don't mean to offend anyone, honestly.

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Well, unless you consider David Blaine, it would be a bit difficult...

But the point is that it's what the statue *represents*, be it Nelson, Busby or Lapper.

So why not restore it? Glue a set of arms back onto it? Surely it would be even better, then...?!

Nonsense! The subject is entirely relevant.

Ah, this seems to be verging on the old "Politically Correct" arguments again. "We think the statue is wonderful because we can't *not* agree since it features a disabled woman".

Nope. Wrong.

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Same reason Grade I and Grade II listed buildings aren't demolished with brand new shiny buildings.

I didn't say its because people can't agree, I just think that some people are putting undue emphasis on her gender. To me, she is a disabled person, to some others, she is a disabled woman.

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Now there's a turn up for the books....graham lecturing on other peoples opinions :D
I have stated many times in this thread that it's my opinion I am on about......but that hasn't sunk in yet it seems.



Now you're being silly m8 :D



Because it always seems to be us?

What prejudices of mine are you on about? :confused:

I'm not glorifying war (see my ideas for what else could have been better placed on the plinth)
This is only uplifting if you know about the models story.........the vast majority of people passing it will just see a pregnant thalidomide victim......
edit--not thalidomide-'Phocomelia'

Hmmmmm.............that sounds like one of the false argument methods you are keen to trundle out.....which one is it? An appeal to sympathy or something like that....Perhaps you can tell me it's name? ;) :D

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Hold everything! I have to partially retract what I said a few pages back..she isn't ugly....she's really rather nice! :D (but her statue is ugly) :erm: :confused:
I'm sure the mods will let me post partial nudity this once! :D

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

I thought we had established that this was art not nudity. ;) :D

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

I'm not commenting on her breasts! It's her overall impression thats nice.... :p:

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Err, nope. Nobody's talking about "demolishing" anything and you've rather shot your own argument in the foot because listed buildings *are* restored, ie fixed up in their original condition and missing bits glued back on.

Sorry, I think you missed that one too. It's not that they "can't agree" it's the implication that (cf the Emperor's New Clothes) some people can't bring themselves to *disagree* because they feel they'd be risking not appearing "Politically Correct".

Well she *is* a disabled woman...! But for some people it seems her disability is what is getting "undue emphasis", *not* that she is a woman.
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Are you trying to get this thread closed again?

On the contrary, I'm well aware of the fact. Unfortunately what you're writing and what you claim to be thinking seem to be somewhat at odds.

But it's in the right "historical context" for the rest of the square, isn't it?!

I'm glad to hear it. I'd prefer people push at boundaries, rather than try to impose/ enforce them because "that's the way we've always done it and we don't want things to change".

See our PMs.

So some people will make an (incorrect) assumption and miss the point. Doesn't mean that everyone will, nor that, because of it, we shouldn't put the statue up there.

I think you're thinking of "Appeal to pity", but that would be in the form of "we must have this statue because this woman has suffered so much" (the suffering is not a valid reason).

There again, you could go for "false dilemma" (putting up two options as if they're the only ones).

Of course actually what I was using was simple irony, but I'm pleased to see that people are actually thinking about the potential fallacies of certain arguments :)
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Ah, oops.

Apropos of my comments above you might want to check out "Special Pleading" or perhaps "Begging the Question"... oops:

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

oops

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Please shall we play nicely? Otherwise this thread will be closed-again, and for once I really would like to avoid that. :tu:

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

When did you last have your eyes tested?
Sorry, but in my opinion she is unattractive.

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Thankfully beauty is in the eye of the beholder, otherwise every street would have it's own plastic surgeon!

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Have you seen what a beholder looks like? yeugh!

http://www.fictionalworlds.com/forgo...S/BEHOLDER.jpg

Personally, I'd have opted for something by H R Giger, would have kept the shock value, but would also have been a better bit of art ;)

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

A classic BEM

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Ignore her disability....

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

I have...

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

Ermmm......nothing in our PM's about my prejudices (just incorrect assumptions on your part)........besides, you made the above claim in open forum-I request you answer my question in open forum....."What prejudices of mine are you on about?"

Re: Trafalgar Square's fourth plinth
 

That's a matter of opinion...

Ah, imitation, the sincerest form of flattery...! :rofl:

"Prejudice. Bias: a partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation[/quote]"

How many more examples do you want?

Are they objective or unbiased opinions? Hardly.

Have you looked at those pictures of the Rodin Sculpture I posted a few messages back? Is she beautiful? Not any more! Is she attractive? Nope, she's an old woman.

Should Rodin not have sculpted her? Should the piece not be shown? Should it be shut away because it's not "beautiful"...???

Take off those blinkers and open your mind a little.