Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

If Israel is held to account in the same way that Hamas, Iran, etc. are then this whole narrative would be radically different.

The use of Collective Punishment in Gaza, a war crime in itself, will be allowed by the US and the wider world. They will look on while innocents are killed.

An example:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...-east-67050350

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

One problem that has been hinted at is the Palestinians are not Semitic so are not Arab. Mostly they are the poor people in the middle between Israel and some Arab nations whose intention is the destruction of the Jewish state and if possible the Jewish people. Palestinians, and especially Christian Palestinians, who seek peace with Israel have been targeted by Arab groups for decades and those who are convinced to fight are targeted by Israel.



And the problem goes back to Genesis 16 when Abram and Sarai tried to solve their infertility problem and bring about God's promise that Abram would be the father of many by (ab)using Hagar leading to Ishmael and thus to the Arab people. And as back then with invading armies from Persian, Syria, Assyria etc Israel is fighting for their very existence. If anyone thinks that the goal is Palestinian freedom and a Palestinian state you are very mistaken.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Just to be clear on who is doing what now:

Just to add, 50% of those in Gaza are children

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Yep, religion, The root of all evil.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I wonder how many days it'll take Israel to surpass the civilian death toll of Russia's almost 600 day old special military operation.

I'm sure our armchair generals will be all over analysis comparing the two.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

As in WWII, the allies would not accept a negotiated peace by either Japan or Germany. Only total surrender was acceptable.

Hamas could end it now if they release all the hostages, and all the militants throw down their weapons and surrender.

The blood of the Palestinians is squarely on Hamas's hands.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Is there a source for that kind offer or will Israel still commit war crimes through collective punishment on the Palestinian people anyway?

Knowing their own surrender will be certain death and that reprisals are inevitable, they could quite rationally just execute all the hostages since it'll be of almost no consequence to the future trajectory of the conflict. That blood could no more squarely be on Israeli hands than Palestinian blood on Hamas hands as you portray.

The only benefit to.keeping them alive would be as human shields or a prisoner swap.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

No, it's just a comment from me, If they did that I would expect Israel to ceasefire, as Israel is not a blood thirsty country that likes to kill innocents for fun.

You don't know that as much as don't know that. But at least you have acknowledged that Hamas value their own lives over the lives of the innocents they use as a shield.

The blood is already on Hamas's hands when they started this attack. Israeli retribution was inevitable, and probably the outcome they wanted anyway.

With Saudi Arabia, potentially, mulling over the Abraham Accords, if they had of signed up that would've been a major blow. There's no way they'll go anywhere near it now. Job done for Hamas, only cost a few thousand lives. Blood well spent.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

In all conflicts people value their own lives over those of their enemy - that's equally true of nation states as it is for non-state actors. As missiles rain down on Gaza killing scores of civilians it's preposterous to suggest this is an area where Israel hold the moral high ground.

Fundamentally Pierre you are stuck unable to view the conflict through any other prism than where Israel are on the right side and the Palestinians the wrong side. Your view is that only state actors have a legitimate pursuit of armed conflict - and indeed that they can ignore their obligations under international law when doing so. No amount of circuitous arguing (or Israeli war crimes) will convince you otherwise.

"They started it" might be a defence in a school playground but it absolutely does not remove Israel of it's obligations as an occupying force in Gaza.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

No doubt you also thought that Churchill and Truman should have been charged with war crimes.

In History..no, in regards to this incident....yes.

If attacked they have the right to defend themselves and then eliminate the threat.

If Israel commit war crimes over this incident I look forward to seeing them charged and appearing in the Hague.

Israel has not occupied Gaza since 2005, if they go in again we'll see what happens.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Why would Israel be any more likely to be charged with war crimes in the future than they have been in the past?

You are no fool, Pierre, you know as well as I do that it's a false measure. Israelis are no more likely to end up in the Hague than Putin, or British soldiers or American soldiers who have executed civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere else in the world.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Told to leave their homes and then the camp is bombed...


Has anyone here defended them, criticism of one doesn't equate to support of another

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

In another bout of “bad luck” the Israelis told Palestinians the border crossing to Egypt was open. It’s now been closed due to heavy bombing in the area.

A thought experiment might be if you wanted to systematically slaughter the Palestinian people, but do it just on the right side of plausible deniability, how would it differ from what we are witnessing now.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Yes, because Uncle Joe Stalin was an absolute saint.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

It is quite remarkable that someone is content to sanction the killing of innocent children.

---------- Post added at 17:28 ---------- Previous post was at 17:27 ----------

How about "Religion is the root of a lot of evil"?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I think greed is the root of most evil, more than religion anyways, religious zeal makes it easier for men to commit the most heinous atrocities but then so does hate or patriotism or a plethora of other motives

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

How exactly do you derive that conclusion from that sentence.

---------- Post added at 18:41 ---------- Previous post was at 17:35 ----------

Hamas seem very happy to sanction it. Beheading babies and small children those heroic freedom fighters.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...-b1112582.html

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Like 99% . :erm:

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I am not sure why you are calling Hamas "heroic freedom fighters", they are disgusting, absolute vermin.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Plus the child killer Putin.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Well you didn’t answer my first question………….And now you’re trying to be cute.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I am debating the subject in hand. If you condemn the killing of women & children in Gaza, say so. If you don't, say so.

I would like to stick to the subject matter in hand if you don't mind. My fear is that due to the lack of a moderating actor in this region, this could escalate way out of control. The US have sent a carrier battle group to the Middle East with the declared intent to aid Israel if required. Scary stuff ...

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I think it’s fair to say that humans will lie, steal and kill in pursuit of their interests. Their interests could be food, property or a belief system around which their society is organised. That could be a religious belief system, but Joseph Stalin is likely to have killed more than any other and he was following an avowedly atheistic philosophy. The common denominator isn’t religion, it’s humans.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I condemn the killing of anyone.

I was commenting on the cause and effect. I am not interested in the history of the region in this in particular instance, because that’s a rabbit hole used to deflect.

The fact is on Saturday, terrorists invaded Israel and slaughtered hundreds of innocents, executed children in front of their families, raped young women and paraded their corpses, beheaded babies and toddlers, gunned down old ladies and burned children alive, if reports on the last claim are accurate.

There are verifiable pictures of ordinary Palestinians celebrating this.

So, if you’re asking me if I condemn Israel indiscriminately bombing Gaza, I do.

Are they indiscriminately bombing Gaza, I don’t know they may be targeting known Hamas buildings. Hamas hide amongst the innocents such is their cowardice.

Would Israel be doing this if Hamas hadn’t attacked?……no

In this instance who is to blame?……Hamas

Is Israel justified in retaliating? …….yes

That’s quite simple. Is a baby dying via an air strike or being beheaded any different, it’s still a dead baby right? Yes, it is ****ing different and if you can’t work out the difference you’re not right in the head.

No, absolutely predictable. Who would be your “moderating actor”?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Only moderating actor I can think of is Egypt.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Pretty sure that was sarcasm.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Qatar are already acting as an intermediary.

The US carrier group won’t get involved their function is to deter others. Israel have more than enough capability by themselves to pursue their own military ends. The US have no reason to participate and be tarred with war crimes.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Yes, I’m sure a previous state that tried to destroy Israel will be very moderate.

---------- Post added at 21:36 ---------- Previous post was at 21:36 ----------

Agreed, they are a backstop.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Times have changed since then.
https://english.elpais.com/internati...n-efforts.html

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Whoever moderates, whenever it reaches that stage, has two ‘straightforward’ goals. The return of hostages and a ceasefire. Their own views will be of little consequence.

Whoever it is will be a probable front for the US anyway, with no American politicians wanting to risk looking soft to voters who want to see unqualified backing of Israel. We are only 12 months out from an election.

Before someone inevitably asks why handing over those responsible for planning or carrying out the attacks by Hamas isn’t in my criteria I doubt there will be many left and Israel can handle that themselves later.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I had thought we could have a rational debate but was wrong. If you are making this distinction, let's leave this here.

---------- Post added at 23:10 ---------- Previous post was at 23:04 ----------

You are dancing around the problem here. The underpinning of the immoral behaviour on both sides is their respective religions. This really is just fact. No ifs or buts. You can try and build a straw man that these two protagonists would behave the same without their respective faiths but this would be just denial.

---------- Post added at 23:11 ---------- Previous post was at 23:10 ----------

Interesting:

https://twitter.com/lisang/status/1711824708746838214

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I’m having a rational debate. You can point out what is irrational. If you are unwilling or unable, to debate, that’s up to you.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Also:

https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/statu...99837472293172



---------- Post added at 23:16 ---------- Previous post was at 23:12 ----------

I'm sorry, I don't see this as rational:

I guess I am just old school. YMMV ...

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

That’s probably one of the most rational.

As the terrorist sympathisers on this site always try to equate Israel’s actions and Hamas’s actions as canceling each other out. There’s numerous examples on this thread if you have a very brief look.

The argument that one side killed babies, but so did the other, so they’re both morally the same.

An Israeli soldier firing a strike on Gaza and collaterally killing a child is awful and terrible, but it takes a whole different direction if that person personally beheads that child with his own hands.

I don’t think you can equivocate the two, but happy to hear from anyone that can.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

You are conflating motivation with consequence. I might be alone here but dropping a block of flats on civilians is just wrong and I am happy to say so.

I'd like to know who these "terrorist sympathisers" are on this forum? I for one, regard Hamas as terrorist ****. They are evil beyond words. YMMV ...

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Wonder if the Israeli apologists have considered they're comparing their behaviour to terrorists and saying they're not quite as bad, well imo they need to be held to a far higher standard than the **** of the earth and not just one rung above them

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I think throwing around labels like “terrorist sympathisers” when Israel are committing war crimes on some of the poorest, most defenceless, people in the world is a bold move.

Reports overnight have them threatening to bomb aid convoys from Egypt. The fact Israel are a nation state in no way legitimises such a morally reprehensible action.

I’ve not seen anyone claim the actions of one “cancel out” the other. However it can’t be ignored that both sides (on the ground there) use the actions of the other to justify their actions.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Most defenceless ? They may be poor, but they certainly dont appear defenceless, they have far more military power then you or I have.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I hope it's not true about babies being murdered and beheaded.


Those types deserve everything they get.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Think it might be true sadly and not just babies but older children too, my nephew is a UK journalist working for an Arab newspaper and he's gone from official channels that cannot verify it this morning to IDF eye winess accounts this afternoon :(

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Hamas deserve to be wiped off the face of the Earth.

Innocent Palestinians do not, but I don’t see how Israel can effectively deal with it.

Sending troops into Gaza would be disastrous, no effective military operation could undertaken in there.

I don’t think there should be any further air strikes.

Israel have made their point and they could flatten Gaza. I think they should focus now on improving their security.

They know who Hamas is they should put all efforts into bringing them to justice or killing them.

I don’t think Israelis want dead Palestinians in retribution, they want dead Hamas.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I'm not sure that's true Pierre, I cannot accept the withholding of food, water and medicine to a civilian population are anything other than war crimes

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Don’t conflate what the Israel government does to Israelis, similarly as not conflating Palestinians to Hamas.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Is Egypt committing war crimes by refusing to allow such things to get into Gaza via its southern border?

It’s odd, don’t you think, that the description of Gaza as a sealed-off prison camp is so often repeated uncritically, as if Israel is in entire control of Gaza’s borders. It isn’t, and never has been.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Considering Israel bombed the border crossing yesterday - three times - I’m intrigued at how you propose Palestinians actually cross.

Egypt are under no obligation to assist Israel with their exercise in ethnic cleansing.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

You want to be careful … that sort of creative thinking might have Suella Braverman asking you for policy ideas.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

There was a time when I would have supported Israel unreservedly. But not now.Not all Palestinians are Hamas supporters and if,if, Israel wants to be seen above reproach then that country needs to have a more measured response.
I'm not happy that the rest of the world has just assumed that Israel have the right to flatten all of Palestine.Not all Palestinians are Hamas or terrorists.If Israel are not careful they could make that the case.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Not all Israelis are the Israel government.

Why are you not judging them the same way?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I’m not sure the point of the word games, Maggy consistently refers to Israel the state. It’s the state carrying out their war, siege and - in the words of their own energy Minister - cutting electricity supplies because of the actions of a small number of Palestinians.

It’s frightening they can act with such impunity to essentially confess their own war crimes before committing them knowing it will not be acted upon by the international community.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

FWIW, this is an excellent post making a number of good points.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Words are important. She refers to Israel but it’s not clear if she means the government or the people, or most probably both.

She says that and that’s true, but neither are all Israelis the Israel government and I’m sure very many don’t support continued air strikes on Gaza.

We’re supposed to differentiate between innocent Palestinians and Hamas, all the time (although there seemed to be many happy celebrating Palestinians immediately after the attacks…)

Yet we always refer to Israel as an homogenous block, giving tacit support to all Israel government actions, and I’m not sure that’s 100% correct.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Not quite accurate. Do you think that Israel would allow Egypt to send shipments into Gaza without it checking them first? From what I understand, the passage of people and goods is strictly controlled under a blockade of Gaza enforced by Egypt and Israel.

Just to reinforce this point:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...ossing-bombed/

This was from the Times Of Israel, BTW ...

... and yes, Gaza is a sealed-off prison camp

---------- Post added at 22:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:23 ----------

I am not sure who does this to be fair. There are many Israelis who march and condemn the Ultra-Zionist policies in the West Bank but you have to accept, come election time, the Israeli people do elect, time after time, Governments who contain extreme right wing, religious parties who drive the anti-Arab agenda.

---------- Post added at 22:35 ---------- Previous post was at 22:27 ----------

Agreed on points 1 through 5. They have the technology to track and take out Hamas leaders when they surface. Precision strikes are the way forward here.

I would disagree with you last point. If the IDF wanted to kill a Hamas cell or leader holed up in a building, they are content to accept the collateral civilian causalities. This is where they are making a serious error of judgment, not least committing possible war crimes. Not that it will upset the watching world, rather it is baking in the next Hamas or whoever replaces them, atrocity. These children are watching their family and friends being killed before their eyes. They will not forgive and will be the pawns for the next psycho Islamist killer group that emerges from the ashes & rubble.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

This may help?

What Makes Israel’s Far Right Different

Israel's most right-wing government agreed under Benjamin Netanyahu

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Fair point, it's easy done in much the same way the Israeli government try to conflate criticism with anti semitism

Pretty sure the only aid getting in is through Egypt or doesn't that matter

Never saw that about the bombing earlier :(

You know they call those Jews that march and condem the ultra zionists self loathing Jews, like there must be something wrong with them for not going along with their ambitions and what they're doing is just and righteous

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Socially they are. Look at their policies on women's rights, for example.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

The Israeli Energy Minister this morning once again confirming the official position of collective punishment - a war crime - by stating there will be no electricity until the hostages are freed.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Why are you obsessed in trying put them into identical categories? They are all on the same spectrum. Take Otzma Yehudit, for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otzma_Yehudit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

Happy?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I really don't know a lot about what's what, who's who etc and for once I'm glad. This is now just getting too fecked up to hear what's going on. I just don't want to watch or listen to the news right now.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I really dont understand the objective of Hamas with these attacks.

They must surely have understood that mass killing people at a festival, or the torture and massacre of whole families (men, boys, women, girls, babies) when attacking towns/villages would pretty much turn the whole world against them, and result in massive retaliation [and their likely total destruction in the end].

There seems nothing for them to gain, and everything for them to lose.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

This article tries to explain

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israe...-always-wanted

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

The Israeli Government “cannot confirm” claims by the Israeli Defence Forces that babies were beheaded.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/12/m...ntl/index.html

The US Government have also walked back President Biden’s claim that he had actually seen photos.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

That’s merely repeating the IDF claim that the Israeli government has not corroborated. Selectively quoting the article does not change that.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

So what else does the "unfortunately this is what happened" refer to?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

This is no different than what Russia is doing yet here we are America flexing it's military with an aircraft carrier that could flatten a whole country.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

It’s helpful if you don’t selectively quote.

This is the IDF claim as yet uncorroborated.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767951

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

If your reaction to the slaughter of babies is to quibble over the method, your moral compass is deeply fecked.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Oh it isn’t - be it the bullet or the bombs raining down on Gaza I absolutely condemn.

However if you are asking me if the IDF, currently slaughtering children in Gaza, depriving a civilian population in the millions of water, energy and food, could have manufactured it to evoke an emotional response in the rest of the world then (on the basis of the CNN article at the time) I’d not have ruled it out.

Having spent days reading heroic stories of a fighter pilot who didn’t exist shooting down planes that never flew over Kyiv forgive me for keeping my cynical eye over wartime propaganda.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Just reading over this thread, and Twitter and other sources. It’s just depressing.

Babies beheaded, children beheaded and burnt alive. Children executed in front of parents, young women raped, families tortured………….

Oh but, what about, what about, I’ll raise you women and children bombed, babies under rubble, cutting off water, food, fuel, power,

Equivalence?

In WWII, the allies did some bad things. Was Dresden necessary? Was Hiroshima and Nagasaki necessary? ( US fire bombing actually killed more people in Japan). The allies did bad things. But were they evil?

War is nasty and horrible, don’t expect reasonable outcomes or actions.

But consider evil……….

The Nazi death camps were evil. Anyone that has watched the footage when the allies first entered those camps will have seen hell on Earth. When the allies made the local German residents walk around the death camps their reactions said it all.

Israel have done and are now doing things that are nasty and arguably vindictive, but are they Evil?

Beheading children, burning them alive, executing them in front of their families, that is evil.

Let’s say Hamas, was big enough and powerful enough to totally invade and take over Israel. Based on what just happened, We would witness another holocaust, they would kill in cold blood every Jew. Men, women and children. Just like the Nazis.

Could you say the same of Israel to Palestinians? Israel are already the big and powerful for over 70 years and still no genocide.

So I find no equivalence between what Hamas have done and what Israel have done. Both have done very bad things. But I find only one to be evil.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were weighed and measured to save American lives. There is no question Japan could have been invaded but just look at the mentality of the Japanese military during the conflict. They would not have stopped fighting death meant nothing but honour to them. I believe less people died from the A bombs than would have done had there been an invasion

Hamas are not a national military at war with Israel they are a terrorist organisation. If Hamas was a national army then Israel would have invaded Palestine a long time ago

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Depriving millions of people food, water and energy as a form of collective punishment while raining down bombs is absolutely evil, Pierre. The Israeli Air Force puts the number at 6,000 already. The parallels between the war crimes committed on the Palestinian people, for the sole reason of who they are and where they are born, and the Holocaust are clear.

The hypothetical that Hamas would destroy Israel is just that - a thought experiment. They lack the numbers and meaningful advanced technology to achieve that through warfare. What they would do otherwise is a red herring.

I do agree on this point: war is nasty and horrible, don’t expect reasonable outcomes or actions. When terror groups fight back according to their limited technological capability and skill sets (essentially brutality) nobody can truly be surprised. Anyone who genuinely claims if bombs rained down on their towns or cities, killing friends and family members, men, women, children alike, that vengeance wouldn’t be the natural destination for at best a sizeable minority and at worst a majority is lying.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Hamas knew Israel were going to hit back hard. If you poke an angry dog who is to blame when the dog bites??

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Israel aren’t an angry dog. How, where and when Israel react are decisions taken by human beings making conscious choices.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Look above your head and you might find my point

Would have helped if I had not missed the first dog out haha

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

This will be my last post tonight and I’ll pick it tomorrow if required.

I don’t think that you can draw any parallels between what Palestinians are going through now or have been through in the past and the Holocaust. They not at all comparable….at all.

Well, we know they can’t do it now. But their mindset is of that. If they could they bloody well would. Israel is 100% surrounded…completely….by states that want to see them destroyed.

Well, call me old school. I can get along with brutality. But I was surprised when babies and toddlers were beheaded. There is nothing normal about that. Perhaps if Gengis Khan was behind the attacks I could understand.

And there you have it.

Replace bombs raining down from Israel to executing children and babies by Hamas and you have the exact same point. Is Israeli vengeance the “natural destination”?

Insert Spiderman meme here.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Have Hamas recruited some forum members ?
Reading this topic you could get that impression. :erm:

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Do you deny that the OP is the mouthpiece of שר ההסברה? :D

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Israeli vengeance is absolutely the natural destination for some however that doesn’t exempt them from their duty to civilians even if they are happy to ignore the law and their moral code is “we don’t behead babies but incinerating them in a bomb blast is a grey area”.

If they act like terrorists under a national flag and commit war crimes they should - rightly - be condemned unequivocally.

The Spiderman meme is apt but if it’s Israel and Hamas pointing at each other that says more about Israel than Hamas.

---------- Post added at 06:39 ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 ----------

I do wonder when we will get a thread title refresh as we often do with fast moving events.

With Israel launching its ground offensive in coming days having ordered somewhere between 700,000 and a million people to flee northern Gaza to the south it’s going to become quite dated quite fast. A bit like a Workd War 2 thread in 1944 titled “Germany invade Poland”.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

"say with relative confidence" is corroboration.
One possibility for any confusion is that it is DEFINITE that people were beheaded AND babies were killed.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

You need to look up what corroboration to a claim actually is.

In any case this CNN article is now superseded by the Jerusalem Post article that Hugh linked to. NBC carried a similar story to CNN on misinformation spreading and the absence of sources to independently corroborate the veracity of IDF claims, including US officials unable to do so.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/interne...ial-rcna119902

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I find it odd that the defense of some of this stuff is arguing exactly how the babies were murdered as if it makes much of a difference. It's sick.

The attacks were pure evil. Callous, barbaric, murder. I was going to say it was indiscriminate but it wasn't, they intentionally targeted the weakest and most innocent people as well.

And today there are Jewish Schools in London not opening out of fear and they will be attacked by people celebrating what happened. It's antisemitism pure and simple.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Facts are absolutely important if they’re going to make their way onto front pages around the world to achieve some kind of moral authority for war crimes in Gaza.

Nobody - anywhere - is defending Hamas and the implication that criticism of Israel is doing so is unhelpful for any meaningful discussion going forward. I’m also sceptical of your decision to describe planned protests supporting the Palestinian people - the actual reason for the schools closing - as “celebrating what happened”.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67096327

The BBC have a clarification at the bottom of their article.

FWIW either way I think protesting outside Jewish schools is a bad look regardless of the reason. Although I don’t think that’s the actual plan anyway. The rhetoric is a close second to the facts.

If only the parents in Gaza had the luxury and privilege to keep their children safe by simply keeping them home.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I find it interesting that your go to place is to compare nation states, acting in a World War context and then make pretend comparisons. The real world is nothing like this which I suspect you know but you seem to want to obfuscate the discussion with exaggerated claims to try and legitimise the carrying of war crimes.

You seem to be claiming that people are trying to make a kind of equivalence whatever that means in this context. The main argument here is that Israel does not have a blank cheque for its actions no matter what emotive and sometimes imaginary comparisons are made.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

It's also a question of timing. What was reported and when. Is what was reported before still being reported currently.
Undeniable that people were beheaded and that babies were killed. Just because it may not be that babies were beheaded seems to be wildly missing the point.
How many attacks by Hamas is Israel expected to put up with before responding?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

All the date stamps are there for everyone to consider my post, the CNN article and other relevant news articles available then and now.

If the details aren’t important they wouldn’t be published. Since they are they might as well get it right with so many lives at stake in Israel’s (dis)proportionate response.

---------- Post added at 09:24 ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 ----------

I can’t find a single post anywhere where anyone has suggested Israel don’t respond at all. Something on the scale below war crimes would be immediately more satisfactory from my point of view.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

So there aren't people suggesting that Israel not respond and calling for a one-sided ceasefire instead?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

How can a ceasefire be one-sided? :confused:

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I know one of the schools well through my work and before I got ill used to volunteer to provide additional security there, whatever has happed in Israel these little people weren't responsible and it used to piss me off that people thought otherwise to the extent of trying to get into the school

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Because it comes just AFTER one side has attacked. Any reaction by Israel is not to be allowed.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

No, there are not, at least not here.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Israel has responded though.

The whole point is surely irrelevant as in a conflict, one party will always have attacked more recently than the other party.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I’m not sure how this gets resolved medium to long-term, as the current Israeli Government can be kicked out by the voters if they are unhappy/dissatisfied how they are dealing with this, but the Gaza Strip doesn’t have elections (and never has done, since Hamas formed a government ruling the Gaza Strip in 2006 without elections) to offer Palestinians the same choice.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Steady now. We wouldn't want to inadvertently argue the point that the Israeli people are complicit in war crimes merely because they vote for the Government committing them. That's a slippery slope to go down and plays into terrorists hands.

External political pressure needs to go on both sides for de-escalation, however like you I can't see it. If it happens it will be far too late. One could reasonably anticipate the events of the next few days will play into the hands of those who accuse the west of double standards and negatively affect western influence across the Middle East and the global south.

The FA taking the "all victims" approach tonight, as with the Football League fixtures played this weekend and Premier League next, suggests to me their member clubs have concern for the image of the domestic game (and thus the international revenue) by being associated with a solely pro-Israel tribute. Although it could have potentially played very badly here too.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

The FA shouldn't get involved in politics full stop. The Qatar fiasco showed how wedded they are to any just cause. Corporate virtue signalling.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

No one is arguing that point, inadvertently or otherwise - it seems a strange take on the point that the Palestinians don't have a choice, but, you do you...