Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

If only they would , my journey to my local supermarket is , 500 yards 20mph traffic lights ( t junction) 20mph 600 yards , traffic lights ( cross roads )30 mph 35yds , traffic lights 30 mph . 50yds roundabout 20mph off it 500yds 30mph . Traffic lights T-junction turn 20mph . If you carried on you go to 20mph the after 10 yds then back to 30 mph and yet more traffic lights:shocked:

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

It wont, because a 30mph speed limit is not the reason.
Our local school as had speed reducing measures (roads humps) for years, and it hasnt reduced the number of cars, they have increased.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

It depends on the location and the particular problems evident in the locality. Here, it’s both.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

As posted on Page 3 of this thread, this is shown to be counterfactual…

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1695646753

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

You may believe that, but if you recall, I responded:

‘I’d love to know how they worked that out. Did they carry out an experiment?’

Figures may be banded about that someone thinks up, and people are just supposed to believe it without question.

It stands to reason that travelling at 20mph takes longer to travel from A to B than a car travelling at 30mph, which means that engines are running longer, in second or third gear, and car bunching increases the concentration of fumes before they can be blown away by the wind.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloa...issions-report

Page 6 onwards.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

"estimated" & "may increase" are not entirely factual.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

It shouldn’t even be a discussion item.

Anyone advocating a blanket 20mph limit is an idiot. If you’re defending that on here you’re an idiot.

I am not against 20mph limits. Outside schools, in residential estate roads. But on main thoroughfares in urban areas 30mph is fine.

Anyone wanting 20mph in town centres, also an idiot.

Have the next two generations below me been born and bred so stupid they can’t cross the road? If they’re that stupid Darwinism takes over.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Most councils had use TROs to set up 20mph limits around schools, etc already. In fact, quite a few here have traffic bans at certain times near schools. Policed by automatic cameras. A nice little earner.

Some even have signs that illuminate at certain times when school are actually in use.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

For national government I agree. Nobody is better placed to make decisions for their local area than local people.

The fact Sunak lowers himself to this, embracing himself to the deluded fantasists who think 15 minute neighbourhoods is a way to control people, stinks of desperation.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

You OK, hun?

(I don’t think there should be blanket 20MPH zones)

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

I don’t think I am.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

They are on the phone…

---------- Post added at 20:12 ---------- Previous post was at 20:10 ----------

He’s speaking for the majority. You are not one of them.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

The majority of whom?

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

He's speaking for less than 1 in 4.
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articl...26-27-sep-2023

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

OB asked a question

I replied

I’m not sure how answering a question with a link and the page number within that document can be seen as a "ritual attempt to take someone down"

However, in response to your comment re that link, can I point out you may have missed the info in this link I posted at 16:37 today, two hours before your post - this was the source for the information in first post.

https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloa...issions-report

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1696195412

Your <snip>

a) quoted incorrect sources (the sources you quoted were for the study above the one you provided a <snip> from)
b) missed out the first conclusion, such stated "It would be incorrect to assume a 20MPH speed restriction would be detrimental to ambient air quality, as the effect on vehicle emissions are mixed", the fourth conclusion "it is accepted that lower speed limits impacts on brake and tyre wear emissions resulting in lower demand for power at lower speeds which is likely to be beneficial to emissions of this type", and also the supporting commentary in the second paragraph.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...6&d=1696196754

Original document for completeness

https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/...qyReyJ0_8gzM0Q

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Except for all the things you got wrong, yes…

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Word Salad.

and who in the UK uses the term "tail pipe?"

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

I'm not even convinced he speaks for the majority of his MPs these days.

Must admit I hadn't heard of 15 minute cities until Rishi brought them to my attention last week. They sound brilliant. What's not to like?

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

I really don't understand the uproar against 15-minute cities.

I live in London and within 15 mins from me I have supermarkets, a doctor's office, an overground and an underground station, places to eat, get coffee e.t.c. Obviously, that's a result of how densely populated London is, it can't be the case everywhere, but why wouldn't you want some amenities located within walking distance? Especially if it's a sub-urban town so you're not in nature but instead in a concrete and brick jungle of housing that requires you to drive to do anything?

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

15 minute cities (or, a generation ago, ‘cities’) are a brilliant idea. The only ones who don’t think so are the ones who believe the UN/WEF/space lizards plan to use them to eventually ban people from travelling anywhere at all.

What’s worrying about Rishi Sunak weighing in on them is that while it’s unlikely he believes in a grand conspiracy, he is perfectly willing to humour those that do in order to win votes.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

It'll be a damp squib when the polls reveal it moved the dial a fraction of one per cent. Back to STOP THE BOATS!

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Policy in Wales, all part of the 15-minute cities:

https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/...2022to2027.pdf

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Which simply confirms they’re doing it, but doesn’t tell us why we should think it’s a bad thing.

I’ve absolutely loved my move into a town and a new job that’s only a mile and a half from my new house. We can get most of what we need within 10 minutes’ drive, or if it’s not a big load and we’re not in a hurry, a 20-30 minute walk in. I’m walking more, I’m fitter at 50 than I was at 40, and missus is very jealous that she has an hour long commute while mine’s mere minutes. If she can eventually find work here instead, she’ll grab it.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

The polling thus so far suggest that.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

I have never understood why the 20mph school zone is 24hrs, if they say it's because people have to get used to it then it's the drivers who can't differentiate between midday and midnight who are sub-normal

I'm not against ULEZ specifically but its implementation has caused unnecessary damage to small businesses and it's obvious the cameras are going to be used as part of road charging by the mile in the near to mid future

They haven't even got enough about them to win the war on woke

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

It’ll never take off in England. They love the taste of boot that much and the their betters have profits to offshore by renting out commercial premises.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

What has 15 minute cities got to do with 20mph limits ?

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

It’s all the same WEF/New World Order conspiracy to lock people up in their miserable existence. Like removing the right of people to live and work overseas, but overseas is the next village.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Nobody would object to the concept of having everything you need within a 15min walk of your house.

As long as they're not closing roads, fining people for using cars or limiting an individuals car use.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

What is your definition of closing roads? We already have quite a lot of pedestrianised roads in city centres.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Maybe so, for Inner London, which made sense. But extending it to Outer London was Khan’s brilliant idea.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

He was elected on this basis and is likely to be re-elected too.
https://sadiq.london/wp-content/uplo...Manifesto-.pdf

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

We’ll see how the electorate in the Outer London Boroughs react. It’ll be interesting, but Rishi senses a winning formula…

Why do you think the Conservatives bucked the trend in the by-election?

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Ulez may well have contributed to the Conservatives retaining Uxbridge but it will have faded out as an issue by the time of the election. A few whingers will doubtless try and keep the issue alive on GB News and the Daily Mail but they'll be preaching to the converted. Londoners are more concerned about other issues like NHS strikes, the cost of living crisis and shoplifting.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

You’re absolutely right - going from 25,351 votes to 13,965 votes is really bucking the trend…

The Conservatives are are well and truly bucked…

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

If, like Sunak, your de facto transport is a private jet, why get involved in a debate about 20 mph speed limits?

---------- Post added at 09:08 ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 ----------

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Starmer must be chuffed. ;)

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Well, just because I could, I checked my fuel consumption at different speeds driving home just now. There are a couple of long, straight, level sections of urban road that aren’t too busy mid-morning. I’m driving a Fiat Panda, 0.9 litre, 3 cylinder, 5 speed automatic. I absolutely love it - it’s pretty much a perfect town car.

At 20 mph, it settled in 3rd gear and, as it’s hard to keep the old right foot perfectly still, instant consumption was as high as 70mpg, as low as 55, but most of the time was around 65-66.

At 30mph, this particular car normally still wants to be in 3rd. It may select 4th if you stray above 30, and may or may not stay in 4th if you ease off. It has a very busy gearbox (I tend to keep it in eco mode most of the time, which forces the gearbox to relax a bit and change up earlier). This time it stayed in 3rd and fuel consumption was around 60mpg.

It’s also worth adding that when you accelerate to road speed from a standing stop, the mpg is below 20 (around 12-15). It’s reasonable to conclude that if you’re only accelerating back to 20 rather than 30 you spend less time doing low mpg.

Obviously this isn’t terribly scientific but I suspect a Fiat Panda is actually slightly more economical at 20mph than at 30.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

The brilliant Mr drakeford seems to be throwing his labour council friends under the bus, he now says it up to them to select the roads that are 20mph , surely they always did have this power just the default was then 30. Mph

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Yes. TRO's. And most were already 20mph near schools after councils spent a lot of time and OUR money to get them passed.

Now they have to spend even more time and OUR money to redo the whole process.


Meanwhile, total irony:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-66998592

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Yes, and he also will be well aware that many roads won’t get pushed back up to 30 for the same reason most of the ones that would have benefited, never previously got pushed down to 20. It costs councils time and money in consultation, notification and signage to change a speed limit.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

True he has a habit of blaming everyone else. Makes Boris look good :shocked:

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

"Rishi" hasn't even bothered to stop his constituencies own tory run council from expanding the 20mph to it's most significant size ever, seems like the war on motorists has been lost after the first battle, two days after the war begun no less, senses a winning formula, based on that the prime miniature has lost his senses

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

They expected to lose and their vote only held up as well as it did because of their stance against ULEZ.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

From Britain Elects on Twitter

Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 47% (+4)
CON: 27% (-1)
LDEM: 10% (-2)

via @DeltapollUK, 13 - 16 Oct

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

You gotta love the permanent Labour Government of Wales. If this policy doesn't finish them off, nothing will.

20mph is great for cyclists though; we can easily catch and overtake cars which is very stressful for drivers. Teehee.

And of course, speed limits don't apply to cyclists.

You know what you have to do folks: get a bike. Don't say you weren't warned :D

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

As much as I can’t stand the 20mph limit I’d happily see it stay if it keeps the Tories out of Wales.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Scotland’s experience suggests if you have a crap Labour administration for too long, in a place where people would rather gouge their eyes out than vote Tory, sooner or later they’ll give the nationalists a go.

I suspect Plaid would royally screw over Wales even worse than the SNP have done for Scotland.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Another tough day down the mines Russ?

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

No, too busy playing rugby and eating leeks “boyo”.

---------- Post added at 14:00 ---------- Previous post was at 13:58 ----------

Quite possibly but the past 13 years of Tory rule have made me hate (and that’s a strong word to use here) the Conservatives more than ever.

We don’t want or need them making the important decisions for Wales.

At best I’d be happy with some sort of coalition that included Plaid or Greens with Labour.

#AnyoneButTory

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

I like your mindset bach. Sigh.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Had a long drive through the city yesterday and noticed it was 20mph all the way from Tottenham to St John's Wood to Canary Warf all but, I'm sure it was never 20 all the way before, Wales great idea has already spread :shocked:

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

No no, make no mistake, it is complete hatred. I hate the Tory party and everything they stand for.

Citation: the last 13 years of austerity, corruption and lies.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

The last 13 years tells its own story for many voters.

Nothing is working anymore apart from the weekly Tory psycho-drama that has been played out nearly every week for years and years now while not giving a shit about the things that are most important to many voters in the country..

No not hatred but a real sense that the electorate have had enough of the regular Tory shitshows.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

There are plenty of decisions Welsh Labour have made that I oppose and dislike. Yet I’d still take them over the Tories based purely on the Tory ability to screw over the little guy and line the pockets of their rich mates.

It’s a case of who I think would do the least damage in my native country. Given the Tory **** party’s glowing record of ruining lives for the little guy all over the UK I’m perfectly content at doing whatever I can to keep them out of the Senedd. Labour are far from perfect (as I said I’d prefer a coalition with a smaller party to keep them under control), but FGS keep the Tory **** out of Wales.

And by the way I’m not referring to Tory voters as ****. Just the party (and mainly the Cabinet).

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Not entirely true.
Some parks have speed limits, and local bylaws can exist to limit cycle speeds.
Also, where speeding itself is not illegal, could get you fined for careless or reckless cycling.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

I had no idea you’re a Tory MP. Well you learn something new every day. I guess it explains the font colour then :confused:

In all serious, no I didn’t and you know it.

You’re now REALLY scraping the barrel

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Welsh Labour does not have a majority in the Arsembly. The rubbish being passed into law is due to Pallid Cymru, Labour in all but name, maintaining a "loose coalition" with them.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Pretty sure he clearly stated otherwise ;

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

:clap:

---------- Post added at 18:08 ---------- Previous post was at 18:03 ----------

I think a tighter one would help, and possibly from the Greens. See what they could do, although I can’t see them opposing a 20mph limit.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Yes later but before you commented, as I guessed someone would deliberately take offence. Admins will be able to see the times of editing and posting.

My mother is a Tory supporter, wouldn’t I call her ****? No. I’ve made it clear all along my beef is with the MPs. Those who choose to support them, you’re on your own.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Oh give it rest, even I can see thats never been his view or intention.
Stop trying to be offended just for the sake of it, its not helping anyone.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Noted, thank you. You'd think this important stuff would get a mention in The Highway Code.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

I would not vote for parties that want to take money away from me and waste it on plans that while worthwhile in themselves still get stuck up in administrative chaos and mismanagement. I support the general Tory principle of decentralising government, lower taxes and less interference. Not that that balance is ever achieved.
But I would never want to vote against any party or politician. I want to vote for something and with our current system I get to vote for my local representative not simply for a party.


But this is getting away from 20mph speed limits. I think there needs to be better use of variable limits and prosecuting for inappropriate speed (careless/dangerous driving). You can be driving below the limit and be too fast for the conditions.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

To be honest I’ve never been that way. I’ve always disliked the Tories if for nothing else than the apparent disdain they’ve always shown Wales (especially the south) but my true anti-Tory (MP, before any twinkletoes on here gets offended) hatred - even though that’s a very strong word to use- was born the day bullshitting Boris took over. He has forever tainted that party for me, along with JRM, Dorries etc

This whole thing feels rushed out with little thought. I drive a 2.2 Mondeo Titanium X TDCi and driving at those speeds is awful for my diesel consumption (not to mention my gearbox and flywheel) however it’s not all that different from 30mph and most of the roads I use around here are either 40mph, dual carriageways or motorways so it doesn’t affect me that much.

What DOES bother me are the idiotic “just in case” types who when driving at 20 on these roads either see a speed camera or police car and drop down to 15mph.

“Just in case” of course :afire:

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

That'll be me Russ :angel:. You have to remember that 20mph is the limit not the target so I often drive below 20. It's a useful way of reminding people daily of this Labour policy (which will screw up the economy, cause illness through stress and incite road rage).

Bear in mind that Wales has had a Labour Government for over 20 years - are you sure the Tories are responsible for Welsh woes?

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Even though we both know it isn’t, drivers need to be aware of their responsibility to keep up the flow of traffic. Too slow can be dangerous too.

Tell me of your memories living here before the WAG came in.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

The "flow" of traffic is better described as a "crawl". It's making people mad :afire:, yourself included.

Off topic Russ - but the Labour-controlled Welsh Government was formed in 1999 and now it wants to double its size. Where's the VFM (apart from 20mph, bilingual signs and dishing out loans to people to pay their mortgages)?

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

And you’ve just admitted to deliberately making it worse. Very mature.


Probably in the same place as the VFM gained when the Tories changed constitution sizes to make it harder for Labour to gain power - how did that turn out for them? :rofl:

But as you rightly say, off-topic.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Obeying the law is not 'deliberately making it worse'. The 20mph limit is 'making it worse'. A very immature policy then from a Government old enough to know better and which shouldn't squander public money on private debts.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Now there is "demand" for Welsh-only signs, according to the Arsembly. Just as there is "demand" for more Welsh-medium schooling. And "demand" for extra members of the Arsembly, where we would not get to vote for a person, but a Party, with the Party deciding who gets the seats.

But there is "no demand" for extra roads despite logjams all over the place, made worse by the limit drops even on motorways and major trunk roads.

The only thing that is in actual "demand" is for the 20mph limit to be scrapped. 465,760 signatures on an official Arsembly petition so far.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

No but when you say

…..you’re calling your own intentional actions which you admit could cause injury, harm and possible death “useful”, then yes, you are deliberately making it worse.

But I know what you’re doing. You’re assuming I’m one of the drivers who hates the 20mph so by posting that you’re trying to bait me.

Problem is…..I’ve already said most road around me are either 40mph limits, dual carriageways or motorways, so by and large it doesn’t bother me.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Around me in London, 20 mph is an aspiration given the traffic. When I visited the Brecons earlier in the year, the speedo rarely dipped below 30 mph. I think this 20 mph in Wales malarky is a bit misunderstood.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

It’s extremely misunderstood and at times, deliberately I think so.

Roads in built-up areas have dropped from 30 to 20. That’s it.

It’s not the new speed limit for roads in Wales, just in built up areas.

But when you have people who deliberately go 5mph under the limit just to teach other people a lesson and also hope to cause some road rage, THAT is when you get problems.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

I may be wrong but isn't that more votes than Labour received for its current tenure?

Not at all Russ (invariably, I would be the one penalised :sleep:).
Wait whoa, where did I say "you admit could cause injury, harm and possible death" Stoppit Russ :D


Try this: you seem insulated from the effects of 20mph - drive around your beautiful City and find out how others feel. You will soon have an irate queue unless they overtake you. I thought Power to the People would be something you'd support.

Deliberate compliance with the law is a problem?

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Post 173:

Who said I live in a city?



Deliberately driving slower just to teach others a lesson is a problem. It’s also classed as dangerous driving and you’re failing to keep up the flow of traffic.

I know this to be true as my elderly mother got pulled over by the police a few years back for doing just under 20 on a 30 road (she never likes going over 30). The cop gave her ‘advice’ about her driving, warned she was committing an offence with the speed of her driving but would use his discretion on that occasion based on her agreeing to not drive in that manner again.

She’s barely been out on the road since but that’s a different story. But no, you go teach people a lesson, cause a possible injury/death from road rage and feel smug about yourself for doing your bit to improve road safety. Well done you.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

I’ve said several times I don’t live near many roads with the 20mph limit. Maybe keep up?

Oh I read it as

“ so I often drive below 20. It's a useful way of reminding people…”

That you often drive below 20 as a ‘useful’ way of reminding people of the policy, which will cause road rage etc.

So if you didn’t deliberately drive below 20 maybe there would be a reduction in this road rage that you seem to desire?

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

There is no validation re Welsh Residency on the petition - as long as you have a valid email address, you can put in any valid Welsh Postcode and the vote gets added, even if you don’t live in Wales…

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

And I've said of course I deliberately drive below 20, it's the law Russ. Bored now :yawn:

Yep, I imagine all those people directly unaffected are livid. I bet it's 'foreigners' who've started all those other petitions on the WG website too.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

It’s “the Law” to not exceed the limit. There is no requirement to drive below it and indeed it can land you with a fixed penalty notice and possibly a dangerous driving charge.

But yeah, you do you.

Plus keeping thinking up more useful ways of causing road rage :tu:

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

:confused:

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Very difficult to stay constantly at the speed limit! It's a limit, not a target ;)

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

That’s why police and speed cameras usually give you a margin of error.

Plus cruise control of course.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

So only people who live in Wales drive on Welsh roads?

Click around the maps.

https://petitions.senedd.wales/petit...unt=signatures

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

I suspect comments like this are tongue in cheek! If you're frustrated by 20 mph, you'll be even more frustrated by 15 mph! :D

However, if they're serious, then it does come across as somewhat entitled. Unhappy with the duly-elected representatives of the nation they're visiting or living in making safety laws they don't like, they try and reap collective punish on the local population. :td:

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Well said, totally agree with you there.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Thanks for that Taf. Evidently people all around the UK are unhappy with Welsh Labours’ 20mph policy. Hopefully, they’ve cooked their goose :D.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

You realise they get this from the post code entered, not the actual postcode of the person entering it?

For instance, I put LL33 0AF…

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

I was out 'cruising' today at under 10mph and things were not very pleasant I can tell you.

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Good for you

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Hello Russ, knew you'd turn up :dunce:

I was walking the dog and it started raining :p:

Re: 20mph is just the start.
 

Yeah, it’s a discussion forum and you replied to a suggestion I made. I may have been on CF for only 20 years but I thought that’s how it works.

Perhaps cruising at 20 instead might have been less unpleasant for you.