Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Are you talking about BlueKIP*? They already have political control of the U.K…

*the current Conservative Party

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

But how much mixing did you and they do? All too misleading when there are so many of your own "kind", that you don't have to associate too much outside of that group.
Just last year.

There have been many instances of inter-group violence over the decades and not just in the UK.
I remember a documentary by Darcus Howe, "Who you callin' a ......". It was about non-white groups hating other non-white groups.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

How much mixing did I do? Well it’s not like I kept a diary of who I mixed with on a daily basis but from the latest census at the time white people were 49% of the city’s population.

Each Saturday we’d go shopping in the city centre (for those who don’t know Leicester there’s a large clock town in the centre which very often had evangelical Muslims giving out leaflets etc, I was never snarled at when Id decline. All shopping centres would have a great deal of Muslim and non-white shoppers, nobody ever gave me any grief.

Sundays we’d go to local parks, attractions etc, again nobody looked at me twice, they (just like I) got on with enjoying themselves.

When I did go to the ex’s daughters parents evenings no non-white parents or staff paid much attention to me.

When I go to pick my son up from school nowadays I don’t get hassle from any of the parents there either.

Is that enough mixing for you?

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

How much of that is really mixing in the sense of "multiculturalism" and not just keeping mainly to one group? As the article says, "Tensions had been rising between different minority communities for quite some time,". It wasn't just the cricket match.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Sorry, which “one group” is it you think I mainly stuck to?

And what more do you think I could have done to “mix” with them?

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

It's a series of mono-cultures, with many of them hating other groups. It's far from all "cute and fluffy" between the various groups.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Whilst that still doesn’t answer either question, given my 4 years living there and my monthly trips to Leicester to be with my son, as someone with experience of the city I have seen none of this hate you speak of. And given the ex’s sister is a cop there, you’d think I’d be given some kind of heads up?

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Am I wrong to say that there was much tension between Hindus and Muslims in Leicester?

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

No idea, I wasn’t there then.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

So how about the complete lack of rioting and fighting I see when I go up there each month? Not much coffee about in the air that I can see (or smell).

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Here’s what’s silly.

Person A going on a forum making a closed and generalised statement such as “Multiculturalism is dangerous” when person B has lived around multiculturalism for an extended period of time and over 10 years without witnessing any of the fighting or rioting person A claims is going on. No matter what person B states, person A tries to bend person B’s views to fit their opinion.

Person B concedes that SOME multiculturalism causes problems but no, that’s not good enough for person A who sticks to a deranged view that multiculturalism IS dangerous, going as far as starting an entire thread with that cock-eyed view.

Now THAT is silly.

Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Oh ok so you think I only know/knew Indians from my time in Leicester?

How cute.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

There's no actual evidence in any of your claims about the 100,000 people. You are simply trying to smear them with anti-Semitism having been dog whistled by politicians who are doing similar.

Protesting a war taking place now the best time is, of course, now.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

May I join in here?

No evidence of the cenotaph being sprayed with anything either.

But then again, we are apparently entering the “silly stage” which might explain your and my points.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

it wasn't the "100,000" bit I was disputing.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

No shit Sherlock - I wonder why?

You said:

So now we’ve managed to get you to back down from that, are there any other unsubstantiated claims we can get you to back down from?

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

I think I'm beginning to agree with Seph.

Multiculturalism isn't working, just look what's happened to the country after only a few years of having some crazies in a position of power. I hope we learn a very important lesson and never let a self centred minority anywhere near the driving seat ever again. The right-wing 'entitled' are a danger to us all.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

It’s isn’t working now or hasn’t worked ever?

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

The photo you put up literally disproved what you were saying.

There was no defacing or spraying of the cenotaph.

Putting up a stand next to the cenotaph? Yeah that was annoying and disrespectful but plenty of protests are disrespectful (I consider Just Stop Oil holding up roads and stopping sick people from getting to hospital to be extremely disrespectful).

The title of this thread is still misleading (intentionally too, I’m pretty certain). Multiculturalism is not dangerous. Neither does it have a “dangerous strand” (whatever in the blue hell that means).

Ever since 2009 I’ve had strong ties to one of the most multicultural cities in the UK.

YOU tell me why I’ve never seen any “strands” or whatever.

Sure, SOME Multiculturalism is dangerous (and would be a far more accurate title) and recent world events have ramped it up somewhat but the simple fact is no, Multiculturalism is not dangerous. Only where you find the disrespectful and intolerance.

I worked for the biggest employing company in Leicestershire for 4 years (it’s no longer 1st, I think it’s now 2nd or 3rd. Why did I not see, witness, hear of etc any of this “danger”?

Maybe you could ask The Sun that?

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

The post was tongue in cheek, but also deadly serious. You need to be looking so much closer to home as your lot are by far the biggest danger to this country at the moment - they're already doing what you seemed so scared of but you're unwilling or unable to see.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Immigration is through the roof from a Tory party that promised us they would "take back control".

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

And from a party in such a hurry to “Get Brexit Done” failed to negotiate a returns treaty that would have allowed us to remove illegal immigrants a lot more easily.

But of course, off topic eh?

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Is that based on the same thought process as this “photo” you couldn’t find?

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Are you stating that all 100,000 protesters were Muslims from the Indian sub-continent and Africa?

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

They weren’t, that’s even more worrying.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

But not disappointed enough to acknowledge their culture isn't dangerous. Maybe you need to change the thread title again to something along the lines of 'I hate people who come here on boats, particularly if they are Muslims' because that's all your many comments are saying to me.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

We already do…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orie...e%20west%20end.

Would that coffee be made from Arabica beans?

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Your facetiousness is really tiresome at times. I’d give you a pass if it was humorous, but it isn’t.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Your hypothesis is flawed as this did not occur. Some bad eggs in the demonstrators, yes. Several hundreds of thousands demonstrating in support of Hamas. Nope. Remember, Palestine ≠ Hamas.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

That article does not support your assertion that they were all demonstrating in favour of Hamas.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

That’s what it should be….I’m less sure now.

And I’ll definitely say that Pro-Palestine in the context of these demonstrations = anti-Jew.


Not ant-Israel but anti-Jew, that’s been very evident, very dangerous and very worrying.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

No one's disputing the total numbers, just that it's only a minority of the demonstrators who support Hamas.

Hamas may like people talking up its support in the UK.

I don't.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

They’re probably thinking about those brutally “collateral damaged” by the Israelis who are fast approaching 1 bomb dropped per Hamas fighter.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

No naivety on my part.

The brutal invasion by Hamas was a month ago. The objective by the protestors seems to be to campaign for a cease fire. I can't see a benefit in their waiting before they advocate for this.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Repeating the erroneous suggestion that all the protesters want Hamas to prevail does not make it right. You don't have any evidence for this. Will there be some bad eggs in a crowd of 100k? Of course.

Let's face it, Hamas weren't even supported by the majority in their own country in the 2006 election and the fact they've held no elections since shows they believe they wouldn't win them.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Thank goodness for that, as this thread is barmy.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Good, given that your points have been debunked several times it’s probably for the best.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Your attitude is ridiculous and, I suspect, more driven by your political leanings than any sense of objectivity…

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Ok, interesting. I mean speaking as someone who has actually lived and worked amongst multiculturalism I have to ask, what are my political “leanings” by the way?

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

He was asking for you to set out your basis for your judgment. Stop dodging the question and tell him. Please.

Re: Multiculturalism has a dangerous strand
 

You’re ******* this dog, I’m just holding its head.

You made the assumption, time to back it up.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

"Home Office officials have admitted they do not know the whereabouts of more than 17,000 asylum seekers whose claims have been discontinued.

Officials told the committee that claims are withdrawn if asylum seekers fail to respond to two successive case worker interview requests or questionnaires.

When an application is withdrawn it means it is no longer being considered and if the claimant remains in the UK they are here illegally and can be removed."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67567401

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Good luck with that. :rolleyes:

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

The Conservative Party has 170,000 members .. that's potentially 170,000 criminals. An enormous number :) The bad news is that some of them are in the House of Commons!

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Or potentially 17,000 to do the craps jobs which we cant fill. Look on the positive side ;)

---------- Post added at 18:29 ---------- Previous post was at 18:27 ----------

Yes they do keep getting charged for various offences. They've becone a bit like the mafia...

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

The vast majority of immigrants to this country are skilled workers, students and people we need to staff our increasingly crumbling social and health care systems.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Well that covers most of the legal ones yes.

The biggest % of legal immigrants are Students and their dependents. This is obviously being used as a loophole. I’m not against people coming for study, but why are they bringing their family with them. That’s a loophole that needs to be closed.

The NHS employs only 520,000 Doctors, Nurses and Midwives, there are over 1 milllion people coming in to the country each year, so while some may be coming for that, it will be a small %

Then add the illegal North African and Middle Eastern men of fighting age that come to culturally enrich us on the boats.

Net Immigration needs to be < 200,000

And it needs sorting now, otherwise we’re going to see Gert Wilders lookalikes popping up all over Europe.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Let's 'take back control', mind you thought we'd done that already.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Immigration is just the new scapegoat since politicians for the last 40 years have sold people the pup of a low tax economy. The fact they’ve wilfully decimated public services while people are living longer, with more health problems, and paying less tax has consequences.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

As they have no right to be here, they can't legally get a job, pay tax or use our medical services. I wonder where they all live? And what are they all doing?

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Are you saying that we have low taxes in this country?! :erm:

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

We have record high taxes and high borrowing. But due to an ageing population, we are spending more and more on healthcare but not funding it sufficiently. The government has slashed spending by councils and many are bankrupt eg Nottingham today. We need to pay more still towards health and the Government needs to address this. But I digress, apologies.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Some of us have, seems the more you have the less you pay

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Well, within the law, that’s just plainly incorrect .

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Sorry, incorrect. An example.

Pension is no longer a pension it is an investment.

For £100 quid you put in it becomes £166
https://www.unbiased.co.uk/discover/...-pension-early

where can you get such returns?

The Annual allowance is £60,000 which becomes £100,000 on the spot

where can you get such returns? Who can afford to set aside £60,000 year after year?

And of course you invest these tax free. For a life time.

And you pay less tax on your salary because you have less taxable income.

You agree?

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Is it illegal?

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Nope. Highly unethical.


But we are out of topic.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

How many more times do aggressive tax avoidance schemes have to be proven not legal in court for people like you to wake up, the likes of you and I pay more because they won't pay their share and they get away with it because people like you parroting well, it's not illegal

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

change the law then.

Already been proven on this forum that unethical is fine, as long as not illegal.

Not just in regards to Tax but other issues too.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

There’s no political party going to stand on “fixing” the problem since there’s significant financial interest in ensuring it’s broken.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

When the prime miniatures own wifes tax affairs are shady what chance is there of changing the law

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Zero.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

You used harsh words: it is called tax relief

Money laundering is wealth transfer

:D

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

In my opinion, the bit in bold is down to the fact that there's far too many people coming to and already in the UK, the country cannot cope with the levels of immigration we have at present.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

We're an ageing population, whose pensioners are bleeding it dry, and whose young people can't afford housing or children. That is the main problem.

Any immigrants to do the jobs we meed to fill, we should be grateful for.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

I don’t see any useful members of society arriving on the small boats…….do you?

I see people that hate us and our way of life, but like our welfare system.

Legal immigration is different, but no doubt still attracting some people that hate us.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

You appear to be confusing integration with assimilation.

Multiculturalism has integration at its core. Integration is what happens when immigrant families, over time, begin to work within the wider economy and society and frequently move out into the leafy suburbs. At the same time they keep many of their religious and cultural practices and such things as food and clothing. The process of integration takes more than a generation, but gathers pace from the second generation. For example, my wife arrived here from the Punjab when she was only three, so effectively is second generation immigrant, her parents being first generation. My wife is now the head teacher of a mostly white school. She has led it from barely Good to Outstanding. She dresses western style for work, gym and everyday activities, but dresses Punjabi for family religious events, multicultural events at school, and on special occasions such as weddings. This is what integration looks like. This is multiculturalism in practice.

We live in the leafy suburbs in a street of about 100 houses. A third of families are white British or 4th generation Irish Catholic immigrants. The remaining families are either Muslim, Hindu, Sikh or Taoist from India, Pakistan, Iraq, mainland China and Armenia. These are all professional people, doctors, accountants, solicitors, business owners or manager or teachers. They arrived in this country as children or were born here, but all started off in the immigrant ghettos (sic) All the cultural groups mentioned so far, including the Irish, are operating seamlessly within our economy and society, but retain their cultural identity celebrating it as you would expect but paying homage to the cultures represented in the street. We send cards for Eid, Chinese New Year, Diwali and Holi etc as well as Christmas. Our immigrant neighbours do likewise for us.

Those who decry multiculturalism focus mostly on conflicts or friction that occasionally happen in communities where economic immigrants or refugees have just arrived. These are the old industrial parts of towns and cities that had become slums over sixty years ago, but have had new life breathed into them by immigrants looking for cheap housing and looking for the comfort of living alongside those in a similar position to them and/or of the same culture. This is only natural. Once established here and having experienced the culturally welcoming multicultural ethos of our education system they begin, confidently and culturally validated, to go forth to university, or expand their own businesses or work in industry, commerce and the services alongside the rest of us. Gradually, they move out into the leafy suburbs, often replaced by new immigrants bringing their own new problems but striving to do well in their new country.

This is the way it is. This is multiculturalism. This is integration.

You appear to want assimilation, where immigrants don't retain and display their cultures as they integrate and where educational institutions don't recognise the richness of cultures within their community. Children gain confidence from affirmation of their cultures in school, be they white British or immigrant, because our cultures and families are part of what we are. To crush or ignore that in an attempt to force assimilation or their new national identity on children is a crime. National identity and culture is the sum of all its parts and is a changing thing. Britishness is a mix of all that its member citizens bring to it. It is different than that 60 years ago and will be different in 60 years time. What must not be allowed is for one element of our population to try to force their cultural or religious norms on the rest of us. That is a key principle of multiculturalism underpinned by our democratic institutions and processes, our laws and by our mostly pluralistic education system. You speak of a critical mass of immigrants or a certain culture or religion taking over the rest of us. What you say is an echo of what was said about the waves of Jewish immigrants arriving in this country, initially via Brick Lane.

Commentators at the time of mass Jewish immigration during the late 19th Century, early 20th Century and upon the rise of Nazi Germany and Stalin, declared that the Jews would soon overrun us. They pointed out the rapid growth of synagogues, virtually 100% Jewish areas, such as Brick Lane, Jewish shops and business polluting us with the smells of Jewish food and the sight of differently dressed people and places where English was not heard. (Eastern European Jews were as markedly different in dress, from indigenous folk, as Muslims and Hindus are now.) Commentators pointed out that Jewish families tended to be big and this meant they might outbreed us, reaching a critical mass that would overwhelm us.

What has really happened over three or four generations? You got it! Integration, with some Jews retaining all their traditions including dress, some dressing and living the same as everybody else, except on high days and holidays and those who have virtually forgotten their old culture. Did the Jews take over? Did they outbreed us? No. Jews are now part of what we are. As with any group of people coming from a country or region with poor education, water supply, medical facilities or work opportunities they had large families. Once here, the second generation had no more children than the indigenous population.

I suggest you focus your indignation on those who really control our lives and our nation, who deny the resources for all of us to live well and thrive and who try to blame the pressures on our institutions on immigrants rather than on those who control the purse strings and the political agenda.

---------- Post added at 10:38 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------

Define useful.

Is a young healthy man from the Sudan prepared to do labouring, pick crops, wash cars or deliver takeaways useful or not? Is a doctor escaping persecution in Afghanistan or Iran useful or not? Is an engineer escaping jet bombers, snipers in the street in Syria potentially useful or not? Is a trained nurse, the wrong kind of Muslim, escaping the Taliban useful or not? These are the kind of people you find arriving on small boats. Some wait with their children in the refugee camps of first safe countries for their husband who has gone ahead acting as a forerunner. Is that scientific researcher husband and his family useful or not?

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

We better start controlling their population then, because I don't think it's been tried before and I'm sure it'll turn out fine :rolleyes:.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

I am encouraged that you place a lot of store in history. That should prevent you from making classic historical mistakes.

You appear to know Islam well, so you will know that at its height, during its golden age, there were more Christians living in Muslim territories than Christians living in the Christian world. There were more churches in Muslim lands than in Christian lands. These were, compared with our times, pretty barbaric for the ordinary citizen, but it was the norm for Christians to be left to get on with their lives peacefully. This was a time of fantastic cultural and scientific exchange between Christian and Muslim academics and artists. No doubt you will find exceptions, but from the Prophet down to all Muslims, tolerance of Christians and Jews, as People of the Book, was at the core of managing subjugated peoples. We hear of the holy wars, but these were driven largely by zealots and power mongers of the Christian world wishing to reclaim Jerusalem metaphorically and actually.

You quite rightly point out the excesses of Hamas and its supporters, much as we might point out the excesses of the Taliban, the Ayatollahs, al Qaeda and ISIS. President Biden, to the fury of the Israeli government, said one sensible thing recently. He said that the Hamas attacks of 7th October did not happen in a vacuum. How right he is!

I would suggest that the resurgence of Islamic extremism this last 60 years has been triggered or is the result of three main factors.

1. The carving up of the Ottoman Empire, including Greater Syria, into badly drawn countries, such as Iraq, Lebanon and Palestine. These were inherently unstable because they ignore ethnic, religious and cultural differences.
2. The imposition of a virtual European colony, on the indigenous peoples, the Arabs of the Holy Lands, i.e, the Jewish State of Israel.
3. The continued interference, by the west in Muslim lands, largely to secure oil supply but also in support of Israel. Even though, since 1967, it has chosen expansion over security the west has unconditionally supported Israel.

It is easy to see why extremists in Muslim lands might gain traction and to begin to gain the upper hand in so many countries. During 1973, I travelled by land via Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan to India, Sri Lanka and Nepal. Through Muslim lands I was met with great hospitality, interest in my views of life, and a readiness to talk about religion and politics. Apart from the occasional threat of bandits I felt safe and welcome. In the streets of Baghdad, Tehran, Kabul and Lahore I saw many local women and school girls dressed western-style without even a hijab. You don't need me to tell you that something has changed.

I must be careful here, not to make the historical mistake of comparing contemporary times with those of the ancients, the Middle Ages and early modern times, but we should not ignore the brutality of the Christian world right through to the Enlightenment and on into the period of brutal and evangelical European colonialism. You speak of Islam as being especially unable to integrate, but Islamic history compared with Christian history doesn't suggest that.

Both religions have their roots in the shared scriptures of The Old Testaments. They share the same prophets - Moses, Abraham etc. A deep dive into those scriptures reveals a blood thirsty approach to sinners and enemies. The new scriptures deriving from the Prophet and the life of Jesus, whether we regard them as the word of God or not, were written in the context of the times derived from the moral imperatives of the time. The New Testaments and the Quran contain passages of great beauty proposing love, peace, charity, respect for other races and care for the natural world. Yet, with a nod to the stoics of the time, both sets of scriptures contain homophobic stances and the terrible things that might happen to sinners.

Despite the overwhelming proposals for love and peace in the scriptures, the extremist, profiteers and preachers of hate in the Christian, Muslim and Jewish world find plenty passages and verses to in their shared and discreet scriptures to justify great violence and exploitation. For example, the Christian slave trade, contrasting with the ancient slave trades, was justified by a passage in the Old Testament that suggests that black Africans were an inferior sub-species to whom Christian ethics of fair treatment did not have to apply. This philosophy was preached from the pulpit across English-speaking lands and at home. I believe our culture has not recovered from that wrong.

I give these examples and apply a picture of the past with a rather large brush, only to illustrate that your view of Islam is taken from a very narrow perspective that fails to take into account a wide historical perspective, only focussing on evidence supplied by modern extremists.

EDIT. The statistic your link pointed me at is pretty desperate. At the time of Irish, Catholic immigration, families >10 were not uncommon. Due to Papal edict regarding contraception this continued into my mother's generation. Have we been overwhelmed by Catholics or Catholic culture? Your statistic presumably covering first and second generation Muslim immigrants points out families being one child larger than those of existing populations. I suggest that as we move into wholly second and third generation Muslim immigrants that the difference in fertility pointed out will narrow due to factors I suggested previously. We al;so don't know what will happen regarding indigenous fertility either. Econo0mic outlook can change things, e.g., the Blair years of economic prosperity and improving public services produced a wave of births that has only recently left our school system.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Quoted in full because everyone here should read it at least twice. Thank you.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

I’m sure I’ve asked this before, didn’t get a straight answer then and I doubt I’ll get one now.

Why did I never get any hassle from the many many Muslims I lived and worked alongside when I lived in Leicester for 4 years?

Maybe I intimidated them too much do you think?

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Agreed.

Two exceptionally informative and well-argued posts from Rough Beast.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

l fully concur.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

So you are saying the 300,000 marching through London are all terrorist sympathiser's?

Take away several hundred marchers and l suspect the vast majority were marching for peace which when l last looked does not make them a terrorist sympathiser.

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

Re: Multiculturalism is dangerous
 

You have said a lot of stuff that misappropriated what I said.

You spoke of the the scriptures. Firstly, reading ancient scriptures to get a full sense of what modern religious devotees think, will only give you part of the picture, because, as you say, they were written and adopted then in the cultural and political context of the times. Regardless what the scriptures say, there will be constant revision of what is written when it comes to living life by them or acting upon them. This can be a good or a bad thing. (How else can a Buddhist commit a terrorist act?) So, in modern contexts, most modern Muslims in the west have moved away from literal interpretations of the Quran and the Hadiths. They just want to live their lives and be good Muslims, not wishing to upset the apple cart in their adopted countries. They play down, out of pure pragmatism, the brutal or judgemental aspects of Islam, but rather dwell on the peace, love, neighbourly and charity parts. The Prophet said that a good Muslim, when living in another land, should abide by the rules and conventions of that land. A caveat to that is that a small minority of western Muslims have been infected by the radicalism that we observed developing in other lands.

You dismiss the words of the shared scriptures, but for Jews that is all there is, so the Old Testament lives. For Christians and Muslims the words of Jesus (Eesah) were an update of the shared Old Testament and much revered in both worlds. The Virgin Mary (Mariam) has Muslim places of pilgrimage devoted to her. The Quran was a further revision. Yet, modern Evangelical Christians put a lot of store in the Old Testament, not just the words of Jesus and the Apostles. They find affinity with the Jews when it comes to stories of the Exodus and the Promised Land, one of the roots of US and bible belt support for Israel. Modern Muslims believe that God gave Moses divine revelation. Interestingly, the Torah (the Pentateuch) and the Talmud which set out how a Jew should live and pray are remarkably similar to their Islamic counterpart Sharia. Christians just adopted 10 of those hundreds of rules.

You then point out that times have changed. They certainly have, but mostly because the pressures that have born down on the Muslim world from the oil hungry west from WW1 onward, not because of anything inherent in Islam that isn't in any Ibrahimic religion. So, there's tension between varieties of Islam? I suggest you take a look at conflict between Protestant sects and Rome since Tudor times and the days of Calvin. Even the conflict between Orthodox and modern Jews had led to deaths. Under the Ottoman Empire Christians, Jews and different Muslim sects had autonomy in their own principalities. Secure people tend to be relaxed and get on with each other. The Sunni/Shia conflict in in Iraq and elsewhere in the old Levant was aggravated by the imposition of those badly drawn countries I spoke of, shoving cultures together in one state that were better living separately. That conflict has spilled over into Europe where Muslims now live. Encouragingly, mosques like the Grand Central Mosque in Birmingham are shared by the four main Muslim groupings. Islam, like Christianity, wants to bring its warring sects together.

Why would a fall in Muslim birthrates in Europe from low to very low be too late? You say 50 years time, but the third generation are already in schools and colleges soon to have children. That's now, not 50 years time. We shall see. I didn't blame Blair for high population. You misappropriated my commentary. I pointed out the surge in births under New Labour to demonstrate that indigenous birthrates can also rise if circumstances are right. Birth rates plummeted after the global crash of 2008. Newly built school expansions became redundant. Perhaps we should hope for financial misery all round! lol

You then proceed to misrepresent Muslim voices in UK demonstrations calling for ceasefire in the Israel/Palestine War. 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.', refers to a wish for peace, freedom and at least a restoration of the pre-1967 borders where the West Bank of the River Jordan and Gaza, by the sea, were joined by a land corridor. The phrase does not presume an end to Israel, a two-state or a single-state solution. I guess that most Israelis and Jews would like peace, freedom and equality between the river and the sea too.

You then continue to cite a conspiracy theory regarding a Muslim plan for a European takeover, but with no actual evidence that cannot be explained much more plausibly. There are 4 million Muslims in the UK. A huge number turned up to a peace demonstration on Armistice Day, well away from the Cenotaph. It was wholly peaceful and as easy to police as the 1 million Remainers who turned up to call for a second referendum in 2019. The only trouble was caused by fascistic conspiracy theorists who turned up at the Cenotaph to defend it from imaginary enemies and ended up injuring a number of police and getting themselves arrested in numbers for violent behaviour.

No doubt you imagine that the boat people and asylum seekers arriving at the gates of the EU are part of the plan. The fact that most of them happen to be Muslims probably acts as proof for you. However, most of them have come from Muslim countries radicalised by pressures from the west we both acknowledged, or they come from Muslim countries destabilised and made unliveable by climate change. Some are Afghanis who helped us out in Afghanistan but missed the last plane out. An increasing number are from places such as the Mekong Delta which is becoming unlivable due to rising sea levels and increasing storm surges. None of this is under the command of Saudi. These are desperate people acting independently, seeking a new safe life. If you want to reduce the predicted exodus of billions by 2050, then I suggest you join with those who are clamouring to bring about Carbon Zero.