Re: Pronouns
 

Like many, I also cant tell from the names of many of our [indian] staff.

However, Ive never actually found that to be an issue.
I cant remeber ever having to call them he/she/him/her in any replies to them.
Plus, I can just ask one of the others if I really needed to know.

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Agreed.

If an essentially plural pronoun is going to be hijacked for singular use then it's not "they are" it's "they is"

It would be entirely appropriate for the sentence to look wrong grammatically. ;)

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We just started watching American Horror Stories (not story) season 1 episode 5 and before the first 60 seconds is over they are doing the pronoun thing.

Basically a couple in a fertility clinic with her saying she wants to feel a baby growing inside until the day they meet him, her or they :mad:

Apart from it being relevant to the topic, it also reminded me of these parents who have said they are not bringing their kid up as a boy or girl but will let them decide themselves. Do they not realise how much extra unrequired stress this is going to put on their child and added confusion in the early and maybe later life. We also need to be reminded by how few of the population are trans or whatever instead of how it appears form a vocal minority.

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I can see a lot of children being named 'Whatever'.

Re: Pronouns
 

TEACHER: Today you'll give an example of a pronoun each and form a sentence with it.
JOHN: HER

TEACHER: Ok, your sentence?

JOHN: Give her her book. It's hers.

TEACHER: That's good. Yes who's next?


DAVE: HIM

TEACHER: Your Sentence?

DAVE: Give him him book. It's hims.

Re: Pronouns
 

A surprising amount of hippy/middle class parents who want to virtue signal are naming their kids gender neutral names or names such as Sam, so their child can choose to have it short for Samantha if they choose to identify the other way.

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That may be an assumption on your part…

Top 30 girls’ names

Top 30 boys names

https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/07/these...e-uk-16957583/

Re: Pronouns
 

Yes, looks like we may have a case of ipsedixitism. ;)

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.. or a case of simply reading somethign that wasnt said. ;)
All he said was "a surprising amount" not the Top 30/50/100.

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Re: Pronouns
 

I'm pretty biased here as I'm a proud Ally but pronouns don't really harm anyone.

It doesn't hurt you or affect your life in any way if someone wants to be referred to as "them" or by a pronoun which is different to what you'd immediately assume.

You may make a few errors the first few times you get used to it but just try your best to get it right.

I have a friend who for over 30 years was called Darren but now wants to be called Danielle. I occasionally get it wrong as Darren was the name I used for 3 decades but she understands that and I get it right far more often than wrong.

Just be kind.

Re: Pronouns
 

Agreed! Let's be kind.:clap::clap::clap:

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That’s the challenge with "woolly" generalisms - to me, a "surprising amount" would mean a substantial impression in the top 30/50/100 names; to others, it means one of their friends/family called their child Sam (and that interpretation could be subject to confirmation bias, as I know quite a few Kims, Cameron’s, & Morgan’s, but they are friends of my children, who are in their 30s, so the proposition is unlikely to be true for them…).

---------- Post added at 18:13 ---------- Previous post was at 18:12 ----------

:tu:

---------- Post added at 18:40 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

Not if you understand why….

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...me-in-britain/

Re: Pronouns
 

I think '#bekind' would a nice heading on Cable Forum. Maybe in a nice pink ;)

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Exactly.

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As long as the surname isn’t Atta it should be fine.

While I’m here I might as well say hello to all the large and small c conservatives for whom this has become their (plural, I wouldn’t want to assume) safe haven. I’m missing you in all the other threads.

Re: Pronouns
 

it won't be Smith :)

Re: Pronouns
 

How does a list of the most popular names disprove my assertion that 'a surprising amount' of those people have chosen such names? I never said the majority of people.

625k people were born in the UK last year and a good majority of them will have a name not on that list.

Your post makes no sense in relation to what I said in the way of proving or disproving anything.

# 11. Charlie, is one of those such names being used btw. Im not sure if its supposed to be the same for both sex's or short for Charlize or something.

---------- Post added at 00:31 ---------- Previous post was at 00:16 ----------

There is a special place in hell for some people ;)

Re: Pronouns
 

Yes, in their absence, Old Boy has been forced to do a lot of the heavy lifting.

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So how many is it, and why does that surprise you? How many did you expect?

Re: Pronouns
 

Why does any of this matter?

After all, names are just noises we use to identify each other.

My OH is Polish and although she’s been here 15+ years and speaks English better than many British people I’ve met she still hasn’t got a complete grasp on British customs, nuances etc.

For example she finds it unusual that someone called William may want to be referred to as Bill. It doesn’t bother her in any way, just that they seem like unconnected names to her.

So if someone wants to use an apparently unconnected name or pronoun, WGAS?

On my email signature at work I have “(he/him)” after my name. Virtue signalling? Do me a favour. I do it so anyone I correspond with (in my workplace or externally) who feels unsure about revealing their chosen pronoun (hopefully) will feel a little more open and relaxed whilst dealing with me.

Is there a problem with this?

Re: Pronouns
 

Nope, that's your choice. Agreeing with it or disagreeing with it is a choice too. If I'd get an email saying he/him then I'd find it a bit weird as in 'a roll my eyes' and with an 'oh one of those types' but that's me. It wouldn't change anything, I treat everyone the same regardless of whatever or whoever they are. Is that wrong?

Re: Pronouns
 

Nobody says you or anyone has to like something - there’s plenty of things in the world I don’t like. But as long as my dislike for something doesn’t come up in my professional dealings with that person, nope it certainly isn’t wrong.

An example, albeit on a different level, I can’t stand it when someone has duckface lips, pumped full of all kinds of crap. I think it looks ridiculous but the world isn’t based on what Russ likes/dislikes. And yes there are women in my office with ‘those’ lips. But I’m just as professional and friendly to them as I am to anybody else at work.

We don’t have to like everything about everyone. But just because we dislike something does not mean we have to tell everyone in a 10 mile radius.

(Not saying you do, just using context)

Re: Pronouns
 

As our dear friend Graham used to love saying in his posts on here, when discussing personal freedom: your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.

Of course there’s nothing wrong with someone putting pronouns on their emails if that’s what they want to do.

OTOH, compelling me to use manufactured language in order to comply with an ideology to which I do not subscribe - that is not OK. Nor is requiring my acquiescence to a world view that is, frankly, alien to human society throughout history.

The real problem here is not what someone puts in their email signature, it is that the loudest campaigners in this area are shrilly insisting that this issue defines their humanity and demanding others therefore acquiesce. Leaving aside the shaky philosophical basis for defining your entire humanity on the basis of whether you feel you’re a man, a woman, or something else, the simple fact is, compelled speech is unlawful. What these campaigners are demanding is intolerable in an open, liberal and democratic society.

Re: Pronouns
 

I’m with you 100% on that, and also what Jordan Peterson says about it.

Just as I believe someone can request to be referred to by any name/pronoun of their choosing, I’m strongly against any legal reinforcement of it.

I think the angle I’m coming from is when people refuse to agree to pronouns purely with the intention of being difficult for the sake of it. Being nasty for the sake of being nasty. Some people who consider themselves to be “brutally honest” seem to put more effort in to the ‘brutally’ part.

(Not that I’m suggesting you subscribe to any of the above ideas of course - in fact I’m happy to say I know you don’t)

Re: Pronouns
 

Enough to surprise me and others ;)


Considering how very small the amount of transgender or gender confused people there are, the amount of people choosing baby names based on such a minimal percentage is not relational in any way at all. It makes no sense to do so. Unless you want to show off to friends, much in the way many middle class peeps rescue a dog from Greece or abroad instead if locally so they have a story to tell their friends about how good they are. Only a few people do this for genuine reasons.

Not as many. An unsurprising amount.

---------- Post added at 22:09 ---------- Previous post was at 22:04 ----------

You are doing it for a reason that may not exist. How many people do you communicate with by email who are trans? Its not necessarily and pandering to the smallest group.

We might as well virtue signal that we support scat lovers in our signature, so they don't think they are reviled by everyone.

Re: Pronouns
 

Is scat loving a protected characteristic? That’s a new one on me.

As for a “reason that may not exist”, given the number of participants in my company’s Pride Forum I think I’m in a better position than yourself to say the reason certainly does exist.

And I “pander” to nobody. I do it because being decent costs me nothing.

Re: Pronouns
 

Putting pronouns in your signature isn't being 'decent' to anyone. Not sure who you think you are fooling with that one, maybe yourself.

If I follow other peoples thin arguments in this forum....so you know what percentage of people are gay vs being trans and figured that percentage and numbers in to the huge assumption that someone in a numberless forum must be trans and its worth everyone adding pronuns to their emails for the small possibility there might be one person there that it fits.

Scat lovers are probably in the closet but they may come out and lobby hard for equal rights and the right to be able to perform scat in public and to be recognised as scatters and expect the police to let them perform over them in the name of equality. It might become protected yet, it just takes loud non-stop lobbying as certain groups have already done.

As I said before, let people be what they want to be and respect that but trying to change society to change biological terminology and people think they are being hip for supporting some of the stupidity in the most stupid ways possible just makes the situation worse and it will end up turning people the opposite way eventually and be less accepting.

Re: Pronouns
 

Tbf that scat argument is the most shit ive heard all week :D

Re: Pronouns
 

Laid that out on a plate for you.... :D

And for the next poster ;)

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Re: Pronouns
 

The pronouns stuff makes me sick too! ;)

My point was a small marginalised group can make a lot of fuss and then everyone is jumping through hoops for them, well above and beyond what is acceptable.

Re: Pronouns
 

Ignorance displayed and exposed.

Job done :tu:

Re: Pronouns
 

Not really, but why don't you simply use 'Mr'?

Re: Pronouns
 

Because that would make me sound too far up my own @rse.

Re: Pronouns
 

Well if you use the name Russ, I don't think you need to announce what you are. If you use 'R. Whatever', then Mr wouldn't be out of place at all. It might be fine for internal emails for those within your group or company. But if you use he/him in your signature for outside emails then it could look like you're even more up your own @rse than using Mr.

As for the 'showing ignorance' comment, is that because you don't agree with someone thereby you call someone ignorant? Isn't that how all this has started in the first place?

Re: Pronouns
 

Where did I say I do it because I think “need to”?

I do it because I want to. Big difference.

And no, the “showing ignorance” comment was because he was showing ignorance with his comments.

Re: Pronouns
 

:clap:

Re: Pronouns
 

I think it's more about trying to understand the reasoning as to why etc. As for the 'need to' it was why do you need to, it's not like your name is Sam, Charlie or some other unisex name.

Re: Pronouns
 

That statement reminds me of almost exactly the same arguments being used against the decriminalisation of homosexuality and when marriage equality was first proposed…

Re: Pronouns
 

I’ve already given my reasoning. Call it an act of goodwill if that makes more senses.

Nowhere have I said I need to do anything. I work with a colleague called Joel who now asks to be referred to as “they” and “them”.

Why should I be a dick and deliberately ignore Joel’s reasonable request?

Re: Pronouns
 

People may have had positive or negative views on same sex marriage but the difference is no one changed their own actions based on that. It didn't lead to twits putting pronouns in their social media profiles or shops and police cars virtue signalling with rainbows and similar stuff which is everywhere these days.

Re: Pronouns
 

Re: Pronouns
 

I think Hugh was referring to the principle behind it…

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:tu:

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And I pointed out how they were different. One was people having views on something, the other is people doing something.

I understand at what Hugh was getting at with the minority group but his statement ignored what I said about people jumping through hoops over this particular subject. He missed the nuances obviously....

Re: Pronouns
 

Nobody I know has jumped through hoops.

Nobody has asked me to put what I have in my signature.

Nobody I know has attempted to place any pressure on anyone to accommodate pronouns or names.

I do what I do as I believe it’s a kind thing and doesn’t impact on my life or existence in any way.

Re: Pronouns
 

Re: Pronouns
 

One thing I remembered is that my nieces ex used to work for a major supermarket and obviously everyone there knew that "Shelia" was now "Bruce", some did say Shelia in error then corrected themselves.

So they decided to leave and found a job where my niece worked (My niece as since left), and they said their name was Bruce, but word spread that Bruce was Shelia, my niece said It didn't come from her and Bruce said I know, so they are looking for another job.

We think that they still have ID under their old name, and surely they can change it all by deed poll?

Re: Pronouns
 

Doesn’t even need to be a deed poll.

They can sign a Statutory Declaration which has the same legal powers and should only cost about a fiver.

Re: Pronouns
 

Is this a result of pronouns? I consider it child abuse. What do you think?

https://reduxx.info/worlds-youngest-...surgery-at-16/

Re: Pronouns
 

That's an easy one. By telling him that as an Englishman, you are offended by his expectation that you should misuse the English language in such a manner.

Re: Pronouns
 

As Russ is Welsh, it’s unlikely he would tell him that…

Re: Pronouns
 

Seems pretty clear to me they have forced this on a child too young to know any better.

Re: Pronouns
 

H’mm, got a point there…:erm:

Re: Pronouns
 

No child displays gender dysphoria. Certainly not aged two. This is all about the parents. Munchausen’s Syndrome by proxy.

The child should be removed from the parents, for the child’s safety.

Re: Pronouns
 

Difference being is when those happened a societal conversation took place and everyone was afforded time to air their views or beliefs....

Re: Pronouns
 

But….I’m not offended by it.

I don’t know about you but it takes a hell of a lot more than a request of a pronoun to offend me.

In fact I’m more offended by your assumption that I’m English.

Re: Pronouns
 

It’d be interesting to see a Venn diagram of those offended by pronouns and those who’d prefer language followed living standards back to the 1970s. Simpler times when we could call a spade a spade.

Re: Pronouns
 

Bravo! Made me laugh!

Re: Pronouns
 

Just out of interest, what is a spade called now ?

Re: Pronouns
 

My gran used to have a name, something to do with hats.:scratch:

Re: Pronouns
 

Re: Pronouns
 

What’s on the spade’s email signature?

Re: Pronouns
 

TBH I always thought that was a racist phrase

Re: Pronouns
 

Nope.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spade

Re: Pronouns
 

or on the other hand yep

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...=1661598937137

there is even a book on it https://www.amazon.co.uk/Call-Spade-.../dp/0820461768

Wiki should not be relied upon Paul

Re: Pronouns
 

Yes it should.
Its is/was never a racist phrase, you links even admit that.
Just because some people hijacked the word 'spade' doesnt change that.
Trying to change it into a racist phrase is just more b/s, much like the same b/s that tried to say a blackboard was racist, or baa baa black sheep.

Re: Pronouns
 

I do not disagree with the appropriation aspect but as I said I have always seen it as a racist phrase because throughout my life the word was used as a derogatory term for a black person.

Re: Pronouns
 

This is just it, we have to stop pussyfooting around a minority of people who get offended at everything. It’s like Argos this week, it was announced they had banned the term “Two-man crew delivery” because some found it sexiest.

In the States, some took exception to others saying “Happy Mother’s Day” and they suggest, everyone should be saying “Happy birther person day”. Just utterly crazy meddling.

Re: Pronouns
 

Only if it is used in that context. You have to look at the way the word is used to determine if it is racist.

Re: Pronouns
 

It should say 2 man or 3.5 women if it's heavy lifting ;)

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oh yeah I agree once again but society nowadays are always looking for something to be offended with

Re: Pronouns
 

Re: Pronouns
 

Aye. Even woke is stolen by the now woke from the original woke who were just those who believed they were informed on what is really going on in the world

Heaven forbid you ask for a ****** and pea bap at a chippy hahaha or go out for a fag if you smoke. See the forum even edited the term for a ball of meat and onion made by Brains in a nice onion gravy

Re: Pronouns
 

Now it just means 'a millennial'.

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Well to be fair Fag and ******s are more American slurs than British.

Edit: Interesting that fag gets through the filter but ****** doesn’t!

Re: Pronouns
 

yeah thought the same thing. Incidentally I enjoyed some nice brains fagg*ts and mushy peas but had no rolls so had with garlic bread

Re: Pronouns
 

A bit extravagant bearing in mind the upcoming shitfest. Mug beans from October. 😱

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99p for 6 so 2 servings and 35p for the peas (had half tin) and 32p for the garlic breads 99p for the meal

Re: Pronouns
 

At a guess people use fag in an inoffensive way more frequently than ******.

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Nah, 'snowflake' means a millennial ;)

Re: Pronouns
 

Really? I don’t use that word at all in my oral or written conversations with people.

In which context would you use that word?

If it’s offensive, forget I asked.. :zzz:

Re: Pronouns
 

They're both used as pejoratives for homosexuals, one is shortened form :p

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Well around here its another term for cigarette, almost no one actually says "cigarette"

People 'go for a fag break', or 'smoke fags', or 'go for a fag', or 'did you plan that on the back of a fag packet'.

Re: Pronouns
 

In my place of employment use of the word “fag” in that context is discouraged.

Not banned, just discouraged.

AFAIK nobody has complained about the discouragement.

Re: Pronouns
 

Your place of work must be a right laugh.:erm:

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Re: Pronouns
 

Trying to control common language ? Wow ......
Fortunately, I dont work for such an apparently stupid company.
Of course no one has complained, if thats an example of your employers attitude, they probably think they'd get fired.

Re: Pronouns
 

Lol I’m loving the snowflake drama and overreactions!

No, nobody is trying to control anyone’s language. Nobody has been sacked or disciplined for using that word. Hell even I used it in conversation once and I’ve been promoted 3 times in 8 years.

---------- Post added at 13:03 ---------- Previous post was at 13:01 ----------

I actually suspect nobody inwardly complains as there’s no consequences for using the word “fag” in that context.

Discouraged: as far as I’m aware they get asked if they’re aware it can have offensive connotations to some. If they reply with anything along the lines of “well where I come from it’s harmless” then that’s fair enough and it ends right there.

Re: Pronouns
 

If you are discouraging something then you are trying to control it. ;)

'snowflake drama and overreactions' ?
I think you must be reading a different thread. :erm:

Still, in this one its time to get back to the actual topic.

Re: Pronouns
 

Without any enforcement, no you are not :)

Ohhhhh the drama of having your speech “controlled”!!

100% agreed.

Re: Pronouns
 

I think all communities would get along better if they stopped concerning themselves about what's going on in other people's pants and what individuals call themselves.

Re: Pronouns
 

I agree.


This is personal preference after all, if someone chooses to adapt their male genetic body so they don't visibly have a penis and get hormones to talk in a high voice and get long hair then who else's business is it really?



I suppose the only conflict is still when people need to use sex-segregated facilities as a guy who's transitioned to a woman might make other women feel uncomfortable in a changing room and vice versa but there are various easy answers to this.


As to what people call themselves then that's also a matter of choice but maybe there needs to be a bit of tolerance to account for people who don't know or genuinely forget as most society is based on gender-based pronouns.

Re: Pronouns
 

Depends on who is paying for it.

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Exactly, none of this nonsense should be paid for by the NHS.